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Two Republicans in Michigan Ask to Rescind Election Certification Vote, Democratic Vice Chair Says Too Late; Trump Invites GOP Michigan Lawmakers to The White House After Alleging Voter Irregularities; Trump Campaign Drops Federal Lawsuit in Michigan; Congress Takes A Holiday With No Stimulus Plan in Sight; COVID Ravages Rural Dakotas; North Dakota Sees Largest Spike in COVID Cases Per Capita. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired November 19, 2020 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Now in the most populous city in Michigan where two Republicans on the election board are trying to rescind their decision to certify Joe Biden's victory there this week after initially blocking the election results.

So now in a pair of affidavits obtained by "The Washington Post" the Republicans claimed that they were pressured to certify the results. And a source tells CNN that the two Wayne County canvass board members received a phone call from President Trump to offer his support as they went back and forth on voting to certify election results.

And he may be taking it actually a step further because that same source tells CNN that President Trump has invited Republican state lawmakers to meet with him at the White House tomorrow.

Let's go straight to Michigan to the Secretary of State there, Jocelyn Benson. And so Secretary Benson, thank you so much for being with me.

JOCELYN BENSON, SECRETARY OF STATE, MICHIGAN: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: Let's start first with this phone call between the Republicans who are on this elections board. You know, do you know what was said on this call? Have you talked to either Monica Palmer or William Hartman?

BENSON: No, because it would be improper for anyone, including any candidates, to try to interfere with what is actually a very clear administrative process and protocol that boards of canvassers are expected to follow.

I mean it's clear that the Wayne County voters and Michigan County voters have spoken. There's no legal or factual basis to question their choice. And so my office accepts the Wayne County certification as it is and will be calling on the board of state canvassers to do the same.

BALDWIN: What will you do to get to the bottom of this? As you're saying, this call was improper.

BENSON: Well, again, I'm focused on my role as the chief election officer, just as we would expect the State Board of Canvassers and anyone else in the process to be focused on doing their jobs and not moving outside the lines of that role. And so that said, in my view, there was a very clear public meeting, there was a vote that was taken, there was an official certification that was delivered to the office not just from Wayne County but from every one of our 83 counties.

The next step is for the State Board of Canvassers to act when they meet on Monday to fulfill their administrative role to formalize the results. And again, ensure the will of the people is protected, and those valid votes as counted are reflective of the accurate totals.

BALDWIN: I do want to focus on the phone call between the President and Miss Palmer. Because "The Washington Post" is reporting that she said the President was quote, unquote, just checking in to make sure she was safe after receiving threats. And then that she said she felt no pressure to change her vote. But, you know, as you well know, let the record reflect after that call she did. How concerned are you that minds were changed after that Trump call?

BENSON: I think we certainly saw a reversal of change of course in a very public meeting that was then adjourned and that final vote of 4-0 was formalized. And I do think it's certainly improper for any candidate on either side of the aisle to try to interfere with which is a very proper but administrative function of the Board of Canvassers, there's very clear guidance as to their role and when and which -- and what they can use to inform their votes.

And so certainly I would expect that only a proper procedure would be followed. And certainly here what we have is an official certification that was forwarded to my office. And that's what we're using, as we block out noise and the rumors and the conjecture to just simply do our job of certifying the voice of the people.

BALDWIN: Now I just hear you just underscoring the point you made that it is inappropriate for a candidate at any level to make direct contact with an election official. And just, Secretary Benson, while I have you, President Trump has invited Republican state legislators to meet him at the White House. It's not clear if they will actually go. Is that appropriate?

BENSON: Yes, you know, what is clear -- which, I again think, and I want our voters to focus on and the public to focus on, is that we have a very secure election and it is over. And the voters have spoken and there's a procedure now that we're going through to certify those results. And there are Individuals who have an administrative role in that procedure.

Any attempts to interfere or obstruct that process is, you know, at the very least improper. But I also have a lot of faith in those on both sides of the aisle, our leaders here in Michigan to fulfill the role, the role that they've already said they will fulfill under the law to affirm the will of the people and ensure that the votes that have been counted as valid will be in our official canvass that's approved by the State Board Of Canvassers on Monday and will move forward from there.

BALDWIN: I just was listening to you and my producer said in my ear that as we're speaking the President tweeted this. I just want to get your response.

[15:35:00]

That he's saying he withdrew the lawsuit because he won Michigan. Your response.

BENSON: As I said throughout the election, candidates don't get to decide who wins the elections, voters do. And in this case the voters of the state of Michigan have spoken. The majority of votes by a margin of 150,000 as confirmed in every county canvassed went to Joe Biden in the race for presidency and that's the results and the accurate reflection of the will of the people that I as the state chief election officer and frankly every officer in Michigan we expect will stand by.

BALDWIN: So the President lost. He lost.

BENSON: Well, that's certainly what data shows, that's certainly what the voting results -- again, we've counted every valid vote in the state of Michigan. We have a very clear, secure protocol and process in our state. And we would just advise everyone, candidates included, but certainly the public to stay focused on the that. Stay focused on the truth, the facts, the data.

And the rules and procedures we have protecting the sanctity of our democratic process, protecting the will of the people. That's what we're going to continue to protect and enforce in the days ahead.

BALDWIN: Secretary Benson, thank you so much there in Michigan. Appreciate all the work you're doing and all the correcting you may need to do. Thank you.

BENSON: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Any minute now we will hear from President-elect Joe Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris. They will be making remarks on how to beat the pandemic that is currently being ignored by this President.

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[15:40:00]

BALDWIN: New jobless numbers are up to their highest level in more than a month as 742,000 -- easy for me to say -- Americans filed for first time unemployment last week. And many aid programs including unemployment benefits, eviction protection and student loan health are set to expire and some on the day after Christmas.

CNN's Phil Mattingly has some of the details, and Phil, I don't really read reporter's tweets back to them. But in your case, I am. Here's what you said.

The inability of some folks to grasp what's the extent of the potential devastation coming in the next 60 days is just mind-blowing.

And yet lawmakers, Phil, they are heading home.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, Brooke, look, I think you know over years of our discussions I'm kind of the policy guy. I think you and I are the only people maybe on cable television who had like a lengthy five or six minute discussion about the drawbacks or potential benefits of risks pools back a couple years ago.

But this doesn't even require that much depth, this is embarrassing. It's embarrassing abdication from lawmakers who are looking at a reality right now where you have some segment of society, those who are perhaps invested in the stock market, those who are able to work from home, those whose jobs have been stable are not nearly as affected as the tens of millions of people who don't have that luxury. Who haven't been able to afford that luxury over the course of the last nine months.

You talk about those two federal unemployment programs that expire at the end of December, that comprises roughly about 12 to 13 million people. You've got tens of thousands of small businesses who are able to tap into the Paycheck Protection Program, a program that for some of its faults worked quite well but for only for a short period of time.

Some of those small businesses I talked a lot to in the early part of this pandemic and they said, look, maybe we make it to the end of the summer without more aid. A lot of them are still hanging on miraculously, and yet Congress has not been able to find any way, shape, or form to reach an agreement. I think one of the frustrating part in covering all this, is it's turned into a game.

You know, House Democrats passed a bill that was $3.4 trillion that everybody knew, Senate Republicans weren't going to consider. Senate Republicans passed $500 billion bill that everybody knew Senate Democrats and House Democrats weren't going to consider. They were each able to have their talking points and to move forward in their political ads or in their political statements but there was no pathway forward to an actual agreement. Talks haven't resumed on any major COVID relief over the course of the last several weeks.

I will say there's a spending bill and spending deadline on December 11th where there's some hope that maybe pieces of this, maybe the unemployment insurance, maybe some of the Paycheck Protection Program elements of this could be tucked in and give some people some help before the end of the year.

But I think more broadly, Brooke, it's just this lack of recognition of the reality going on around the country. And if you want to understand just how bad it is, just take a listen to what former Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan told our colleague Julia Chatterley.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN GREENSPAN, FORMER FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: In a situation like this, you always have to say, what could go wrong. The major part of the solution here is going to be to get us back to where we were. And that could take a long time. And I'm not convinced at all that we have enough information to know how to deal with this type of problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: And I think that's the biggest issue right now, Brooke, is the unknown. You see kind of an inflated third quarter GDP number. You see unemployment start -- at least on the top line -- start to reduce over the course of the last several months but the virus is spiking. Tens of millions of people are still out of work, small businesses are still closing.

And on Capitol Hill there doesn't seem recognition that something needs to be done. Or at least any recognition that actual talks need to start. Maybe that'll change. Hopefully, I'm wrong. Hopefully, they figure out ways to do something or reach a path forward. But I think it's incredible frustrating.

And as I said earlier, I'm not one who editorializes much, it's embarrassing that lawmakers can't figure out a way to do something on the leadership level and in the White House when there's a recognition that there are very, very significant economic problems around the country right now that need to be addressed.

BALDWIN: In all of our years, in all of our conversations, I have never heard you editorialize. And that you are saying you're speaking the truth.

[15:45:00]

For so many of us we know small business owners who survived through the first round and we're all praying for them through the second wave. It's not a game. Phil Mattingly, thank you for all you do in calling them out.

Coming up next, North Dakota finally issues a mask mandate after setting a horrific new record. I'll talk to a top state official about what took them so long.

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BALDWIN: To anyone who thinks COVID is a problem only for big metropolitan areas, take a look at these numbers with me.

[15:50:00]

North Dakota, the state now has per capita the most new coronavirus cases and deaths over the past seven days of any state and is second in new hospitalizations.

Kirby Kruger is the Director of Disease Control at the North Dakota Department of Health. So Kirby, thank you so much for being on with me, and tell me why your state is in this horrible position.

KIRBY KRUGER, DIRECTOR OF DISEASE CONTROL, NORTH DAKOTA DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: Yes, so, you know, I think what we understand about COVID is the primary means of transmission amongst people is when people get together. And so what we saw over the summer was very slight increases but as we moved into August, that graph really became a little steeper and then the further we moved into fall, cases really started to take off. And then really in mid-October, it really started to take off.

And it's really just a matter our people are getting together and people are not masking at the level we want them to mask. And so there are things that are happening, and people are gathering together. And so that's still a concern with the holidays for us coming up.

BALDWIN: But it's been bad in your state. I was looking at the numbers, you know, for a number of months. I know it took a turn, right, worse over the summer and, as you point out, into the fall. So what took your governor until Friday night to issue this mandatory mask mandate? Why so late?

KRUGER: I think from our perspective, you know, there's always been concerns about enforcement and that still is a concern, you know. Even with a mandate at a wide level, enforcement is always something that you have to consider.

BALDWIN: But what is concerning about telling people to help people save lives by wearing a mask? What's hard about that?

KRUGER: And I think we've been doing that all along. We've been really, you know, been pushing masks and providing the information to them and letting them know that these masks are an effective means for reducing the risk for transmission and empowering even local communities and counties to take action if they deem it, you know. And several municipalities and counties did institute mandates before we instituted our health mandate.

BALDWIN: But what took so long? And I know I'm pointing my questions at you and I know you're not the governor, but what took you so long?

KRUGER: I think that the timing was right for us. And, you know, maybe it could be argued that we should have done this months ago but from our perspective, the curve that we were looking at and the steepness of the slope really was pointing that, you know, we need to do something here. And we know that there are several interventions and mitigations that work, and we were able to implement several mitigations over the weekend in North Dakota to help reduce spread in this state.

BALDWIN: But you could have saved lives. I mean, you are the worst in the country. Why do you think North Dakota is so bad? What's happening at schools, restaurants, behaviors? Can you pinpoint it? You're the one looking at the numbers. KRUGER: Yes. You know, looking at the numbers, we saw this switch late

summer, early fall, where we went from being able to trace and track, you know, clusters, people back to clusters and people back to infected individuals to being able to have a community spread. And community spread, you know, when our investigators are interviewing people and they're saying, you know, I'm not sure where I got this from. I'm not aware of people, you know.

And so we saw this growing community spread happening and part of that was due to -- and there are, there were large events that we could trace to larger outbreaks and then there were smaller events that we could trace it back to them. And then we had the university starting and the school starting and although the universities and schools have been working very hard, it still is a situation where people are coming together. So.

BALDWIN: What's happening with South Dakota, just quickly? You know, the governor there still says they don't need a mask mandate. And I know one of your North Dakota Senators, Kevin Kramer, just said a statewide mask mandate is unnecessary. You are there on the front lines. What would you like the Senator to know?

KRUGER: I just think that, you know, there's good science. I know people argue that, well, the science isn't really there, but I think there's really good science and CDC's made it very clear that masking can reduce the risk of transmission. I think the science is better that masks are good for controlling the source of the virus.

[15:55:00]

In other words the infected persons who's mask doesn't shed the virus or is less likely to spread that virus to somebody else. Even CDC --

BALDWIN: Right, we just heard that not only wearing masks it not only protects people, you know, around you, but also yourself.

KRUGER: Right. Yes, and I think that's the --

BALDWIN: I'm up against the wall. Forgive me, Kirby Kruger, it was recent, I give you credit for coming on, I wish you all the best there in North Dakota. Thank you so much.

KRUGER: Hey, we just want people to be safe this holiday and do the right thing.

BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Yes, we do. Thank you.

Any minute now, we will hear from the President-elect, and the Vice President-elect. Live pictures there. They'll be making remarks on the pandemic.

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