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U.S. Surpasses 12 Million Coronavirus Cases; Trump Tweets About Election Results And Skips Sessions On Pandemic During G20; Holiday Travel Going Strong In Spite Of CDC Warning; RNC, Michigan GOP Ask for Two-Week Delay In Certifying Election Results, Asking For Audit Of Wayne County Votes; Fed Chair Criticizes Trump Administration For Ending Emergency Funding. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired November 21, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:01:27]

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Erica Hill in New York.

And we begin with breaking news this hour, another horrific milestone crossed, 12 million. Look at the number on the side of your screen. More than 12 million coronavirus cases in this country alone, 12,019,960 people either currently infected or dealing with the aftereffects of coronavirus. That's where we're at now.

There is no other country in the world, none, with as many cases of COVID-19 as the United States. More than 255,000 people in this country have now died as a result of the virus, and again, just confirmed by Johns Hopkins University, the number of cases reaching and then surpassing 12 million.

This pandemic is just one major emergency the American people are facing today. The other, it's a crisis of leadership or a lack of it. Americans are becoming sick. They are dying in surging numbers across this country.

The president of the United States is not talking about the virus. He's not talking about the 255,000 lives lost. He's not talking about the hospitals reaching capacity, their staff overwhelmed.

He is focused today on an election he did not win. He is focused on voter fraud that evidence shows simply didn't happen. He's focused on his golf game while other world leaders are trying to keep people alive.

The president today declining to attend a G20 session on pandemic preparedness, choosing instead to hit the links. This morning, though, as we saw, there, making his way to Virginia.

This virus needs attention. Why? It impacts literally everything right now in this country, and it's going to be here on January 20th on inauguration day. It needs the same amount of attention today as it will then and in the 60-some-odd days in between these two dates.

The transition of presidential power that we normally see in this period, well, as you know, at this point, it's nonexistent. President Trump refusing to concede, refusing to accept the will of the voters.

So, let's take a look at what's happening today instead.

Joining us now, CNN White House Correspondent, Jeremy Diamond, CNN Political Correspondent, Arlette Saenz.

Jeremy, we know the president today is out there golfing. He is not talking about the transition. He is not talking about the virus. But he is still, in some ways, if you count Twitter as talking, he's still talking about the election.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: He certainly is. We have seen the president today continue his -- to spread the misinformation that he has about the 2020 election, insisting that there is voter fraud in the state of Michigan, voter fraud in the state of Georgia. Of course, he's saying that even as his efforts to overturn the results of the elections in those two states, which Joe Biden has won and part of -- key part of him becoming president-elect, President Trump, you know, continuing to make these claims.

And yet today, what we saw was the president golfing, even as there was this summit of the G20 leaders, the president briefly participated in a meeting of those G20 leaders this morning before heading to his golf club, but as he arrived at his golf club, another meeting of the G20 leaders was taking place, this one on pandemic preparedness and yet the president choosing not to attend that and instead hit the links as you can see on your screen there.

And as I said, the president's attempts to overturn the results of the election, they are falling by the day. The president has already lost or withdrawn 28 cases in state and federal courts across this country.

[16:05:01]

And you are seeing the pressure among Republicans beginning to slowly, slowly build. Today, we saw the first statement from a member of House Republican leadership seeking to exert perhaps a modicum of pressure, Congresswoman Liz Cheney saying the president should respect the sanctity of our electoral process if he can't prove his claims in court -- Erica.

HILL: Jeremy, thank you.

You know, as we look at all that, Arlette, you have been following the Biden team closely as we know. How is he working around this lack of an official transition at this point?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erica, it's been two weeks since Joe Biden was projected the winner of the 2020 election, but he has yet to receive that ascertainment that is critical to getting the official transition process under way. But what you have seen Joe Biden and his team doing over the course of the past week is trying to show that they are still moving forward with their planning and their work as he is taking on that role of president-elect.

Biden held events every single day this week. They focused on everything from COVID-19 to national security. Yesterday, he met here in Wilmington, Delaware, for the first time in person with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer as they are trying to show this united front, even as Republicans continue to put up roadblocks to Biden's transition work.

Now, Biden has said that he is not ruling out legal action in order to get this ascertainment done, but he also doesn't think that legal fights will necessarily speed up this transition process. So, what you are seeing Biden do is trying to project this role and sense of confidence that he can still move forward. Biden actually has expedited his decision to announce his cabinet picks. It was expected that those would be coming after the Thanksgiving holiday but now they could be coming early this week.

Biden has already indicated that he's made a selection for the treasury secretary, one of the top contenders for that job is considered to be Lael Brainard, the Federal Reserve, and there is also a chance that Biden could announce his secretary of state as soon as this week, all as he is trying to show that he is putting together this administration and the leaders that will help guide his agenda in the early days of his White House.

HILL: Arlette Saenz, Jeremy Diamond, thank you both for your reporting this afternoon. Joining me now to discuss, CNN political analyst April Ryan, and CNN commentator and Biden commentator, Ana Navarro.

Good to have both of you with us.

You know, April, I'm curious just what you're hearing from some of your sources in Washington, even at the White House. We see the president today, it is not surprising -- let's be honest -- it is not surprising that this president has chosen to spend his day at the golf course and tweeting baseless claims of election fraud.

That being said, we know he wants to hold on to power, April, but there is no indication that he actually wants the job of president, so what's the chatter behind the scenes?

APRIL RYAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: The chatter behind the scenes is the president is trying to show resolve and calm in the midst of this storm that he has created.

And I'm hearing from Congresswoman Brenda Lawrence, who I just got off the phone with, from the state of Michigan, she says this president is strategic in what he's doing and he knows what he's doing and he's created a mess, and what this mess is, even if he doesn't want to be president, this mess in Michigan could wind up having the fact that you could have an audit if the election is not certified in Michigan.

You could also have the electors go into the state house and cast their ballots. This president is very clear as to causing confusion because the black vote in Wayne County put Joe Biden over the top. He wants to refute that, and you have to remember, even if people are saying he doesn't want to be president, he's doing all this to make sure he stays out of prison. HILL: You know, as we look at all this, you talk about the confusion

that he's trying to put out there, April. And as we look at this new polling, I mean, in a lot of ways, it looks like it's working. Seventy percent of Republicans believe President-elect Biden only won because he cheated, despite the fact that there is zero evidence of fraud.

How does the president-elect and how do Democrats move past that, Ana?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Reality will have to set in. By acting as a president, by getting things done, by having an agenda and having policy.

Look, Erica, let's remember, there were a lot of people, including myself, who thought that Donald Trump got elected in 2016 because of foreign interference, because of the Russian involvement, WikiLeaks, all those things that happened, the campaigns, the disinformation campaigns targeting African-Americans, all of those things. OK? Which we, you know, in my mind, made him illegitimate.

But you know what? Whether I liked it or not, whether I thought he got help from the Russians or not, whether I supported him or not, he was still president.

[16:10:05]

And whether I liked it or not, he was sitting in the Oval Office, signing executive orders, and passing an agenda. And so, I would say, if 70 percent of Republicans don't believe that Joe Biden won fair and square, they're going to have to deal with it, whether they like it or not because the states will certify their election results.

The electors will vote, despite Donald Trump's best efforts of lobbying legislators to change the rules. That's not going to happen. Meritless claims are not going to go anywhere.

Rudy Giuliani having cringe-inducing press conferences in front of landscaping centers or literal meltdowns is not going to change the outcome. And whether you believe Joe Biden won fair and square or not, he is going to swear in on January 20th, and people are going to have to deal with it. Believe me, you will survive. I'm here as proof.

HILL: I'm glad you're here as proof because I'm always glad you're here, period, my friend.

Listen, we have not heard a lot from Republicans, very few speaking out, Republican lawmakers. Liz Cheney, though, I just want to read part of the statement that she just put out saying, if the president cannot prove these claims or demonstrate that they will change the election result, he should fulfill his oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States by respecting the sanctity of our electoral process.

How much weight, at this point, April, does her voice carry? How much do you think it could inspire, perhaps, others to start to speak out?

RYAN: You know, we are hearing from others who are grumbling. There's an undercurrent.

But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. We understand he listens to Mitch McConnell but it's not working. At the end of the day, he's going to have to listen to all the voices that are in his head. He's only going to listen to himself.

But you know, when we look at this, we go back four years ago, he talked about the peaceful transfer of power when he took the oath of office on January 20th at noon. And he's impeding the underpinnings of the democracy, especially as he's claiming fraud. He suppressed the vote by going into the post offices and dismantling sorting machines and hijacking the mailboxes.

So he's making a claim of fraud. We're waiting for the other side to scream and holler about the voter suppression that he did. This is a battle that he's trying to win by any means necessary, taking the words of the late Malcolm X.

HILL: You know, I look at this, though, and you look at what we heard from Senator Mitt Romney, right? His words, it's hard to imagine a more undemocratic action by a sitting American president, when looking at what's happening.

You know, for years, we have talked about why Republicans have lined up behind Donald Trump, even when it goes counter to everything they themselves may have stood for prior to 2016, Ana. When we look at now, when you're dealing with a lame duck president, what's the incentive? Why is there still such a sense that among Republicans, they have to stand behind this man, even if they know what he's doing is wrong and not based in fact or reality? What's in it for them at this point?

NAVARRO: Well, the lame duck is not going away. The duck might be lame, but the duck is not going to disappear from the political scene. And he continues being the strongest figure in the Republican Party. He can surely make or break Republican primary elections, and we all know that Republican elected officials are terrified of Trump mean tweets because mean tweets by Trump can mean that the Republican base comes out or does not come out to support somebody.

Look, I am very proud of Mitt Romney. He's a friend of mine. I'm very proud that he's standing up, and I think what Liz Cheney is doing is terrific. There were five Republican governors this week who met -- including some from the Deep South, from deep red states like Asa Hutchison from Arkansas or the governor from Alabama who met with President-elect Joe Biden.

And I think the wall is beginning to crumble. I mean, it's stupid. It's insane that it's taking this long.

I think people were giving Donald Trump a time to process defeat. Remember, this is a guy for whom being a loser or whom getting fired is the worst thing that could happen in the world to him, and that's just what happened, right? The American people told him, you're fired. And he's going to have to process that.

And you know what? He's now had close to three weeks to deal with it, so get moving, bud, because we've got things to do, and we're in the midst of a raging pandemic and a transition needs to happen. And so I think you're going to see more and more Republicans thinking, okay, we've now given him a week, we've now given him two weeks, we've now given him three weeks.

The states are certifying the results. You know, the courts are rejecting their claims.

[16:15:01]

What else is there? What other strand of spaghetti is there for these people to throw on the wall? And history is going to judge everybody standing in complicit silence very, very harshly.

HILL: History will also judge the lack of action on this virus, as you point out.

RYAN: Erica, Erica, I believe that this president is going to take it until the nth degree, January 20, 2021, at 12:00 noon. I believe he's going to carry it. Knowing him for the last four years as I have known him, he's going to have this tantrum until the very last moment.

HILL: I would not be surprised. April Ryan, Ana Navarro, I really appreciate you joining us. Thank you.

NAVARRO: I hope he's -- I hope he's on a golf course on January 20th at noon. I hope he's on any golf course. The one in Scotland, I think, is open.

HILL: Ladies, thank you both. Always enjoy it. And happy Thanksgiving.

Well, as the pandemic rages, the CDC is now urging people, as you know, not to travel for Thanksgiving. So just what do airports, for example, look like across America? You might be surprised. That's next.

Stay with us. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:20:16]

HILL: Our breaking news again this hour, the U.S. has now surpassed 12 million cases of coronavirus since the start of this pandemic. So, with that number in mind, many Americans are now starting to rethink their Thanksgiving plans.

This, of course, after the CDC warned late last week that we should all stay home for the holidays. And yet, take a look at this video.

So, this was this morning at the airport in Phoenix. It looks crowded. It is actually tough to look at those pictures and then think about the numbers on the side of your screen.

CNN's Pete Muntean is at Reagan National Airport.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: The CDC says people should not travel for Thanksgiving, but what's so interesting is that it has not stopped people here at Reagan National Airport who tell me that they feel safe enough to fly. AAA estimates that about 50 million people will travel for the holiday but that's only a 10 percent drop compared to last year.

Airlines are still adding flights to their schedules, and insist that flying right now is safe, but they underscore that it's a very personal decision, one that passengers here tell me they did not take lightly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like I have taken enough measures to protect myself and my family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I understand the risks that I'm taking but I want to see my family.

MUNTEAN: Airlines say they're not encouraging people to fly right now but they're not discouraging them either. United Airlines says it's already seen bookings drop off as coronavirus continues to surge. Even still, the head of the TSA thinks we could break a record of the pandemic that was set back on October 18th, when about a million people passed through security at America's airports. He says the busiest days will be the Wednesday before Thanksgiving and the Sunday after.

Pete Muntean, CNN, Reagan National Airport.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: Joining us now, Dr. Peter Hotez, as we go through these latest coronavirus headlines. He's a professor and the dean of tropical medicine at Baylor College.

You know, as we look at this, Dr. Hotez, I mean, I feel like, and I said this earlier to Dr. Wen, for months now, we have heard from the both of you, we know what to do, we have the tools. We know how to slow this, and yet here we are, more than 12,000 cases, more than 255,000 deaths, and we're seeing scenes like what we just saw at the airport in Phoenix.

I'm just curious, for you, who is fighting every day to get this message out there, what do pictures like that -- what do those do to you?

DR. PETER HOTEZ, PROFESSOR AND DEAN OF TROPICAL MEDICINE, BAYLOR COLLGE OF MEDICINE: Well, we know what the result of this is going to be. Look, Erica, we're in the worst part of the epidemic right now, a historic levels. We're going to be, by next week, we'll be at 200,000 new cases a day. We're already getting up to 2,000 deaths per day, and the numbers are going to continue to climb.

Some estimates from the Institute for Health Metrics indicate that 150,000 Americans will lose their lives between now and about a week or two after the inauguration. All of those deaths, all of those 150,000 deaths are preventable. This is not a time to be traveling at this terrible time. The virus is just out of control, accelerating, especially across the heartland, northern Midwest, here in Texas and West Texas is one of the worst-affected areas as well.

And people will lose they're lives and the key now is to try to prevent these -- the surges on the intensive care units, especially where the virus is the greatest, and the Upper Midwest and in West Texas. Erica, these are the most COVID epidemic levels anywhere in the world. This is the epicenter of the whole pandemic in West Texas and North Central Midwest.

And nobody has to die, number one. Number two, vaccines are coming. We have good, safe, effective vaccines. There will be four of them, I think, by first or second quarter next year.

All we need to do is get those individuals to the other side to get them vaccinated, and stay alive and keep your mother, father, brother, sister alive between now and then, and they'll get vaccinated. They could lead a normal life. This is not a time to do reckless things like traveling on thanksgiving.

HILL: Such a good point. A friend of mine said, who wants to be the person that three or four months out from a vaccine was the one who got the rest of their family sick and even potentially killed someone?

You talk about the strain on hospitals that we're seeing. More and more, we're talking about the spread in rural areas and rural hospitals who simply do not have the beds or the staff in many cases to deal with this. How concerned are you today about those rural hospitals?

HOTEZ: Well, the problem -- both rural and urban hospitals, but rural hospitals don't have the -- not -- it's not so much the beds, because you can convert a lot of beds to ICUs.

[16:25:06]

It's the hospital staff, the trained staff, the nurses, the doctors, the technicians. That's where you run into problems. We saw this in New York and southern Europe over the -- over last spring in March and April.

The mortality rates go from like this as you start overwhelming hospitals and you know, it's exhausting, donning and doffing PPE and the nursing staff get exhausted, and that's when you start seeing the deaths really climb, and that's what's happening right now up in West Texas, up in North Central Midwest hospital staffs are getting exhausted, and people are going to lose their lives in excessively high numbers.

And that's how we're going to get to those 150,000 deaths between now and a week after the inauguration, and that's why I'm talking to everybody I can to try to mitigate this because, again, vaccines are coming. HILL: You know, I cannot tell you enough how much we appreciate your

voice and how much we appreciate you joining us. Dr. Peter Hotez, thank you.

HOTEZ: Thank you, Erica.

HILL: Up next, the president today tweeting about the election. What didn't he do? Well, he did not attend the global meeting about pandemic preparedness. He is not addressing the virus.

It's not just President Trump spreading baseless conspiracy theories about the election. The RNC is doing it too. We'll explain next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:30:54]

HILL: This just into CNN. Republicans in Pennsylvania are suing the state to stop certification of the election results and invalidate the mail-in ballots. Counties there are scheduled to certify their results on Monday.

Meantime, the RNC and Michigan Republicans are now asking for a two- week delay in certifying that state's election results.

President-Elect Joe Biden won Michigan by more than 154,000 votes. Now Michigan Republicans, though, again, want to delay the state certification.

CNN's Jessica Schneider joining me now.

Jessica, what is the strategy here?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Eric, it seems to be the strategy of delay, confuse, and cast doubt. And Republicans haven't been successful so far in court. But they're still trying multiple avenues here.

So right now, Republicans are fighting on two fronts to stop the certification process in both Pennsylvania and in Michigan.

Now, Republicans in Pennsylvania just filing that new lawsuit in state court. They want the court to stop the vote certification scheduled to happen Monday.

And they want to invalidate all of the more than 2.6 million mail-in ballots.

They say the legislature in Pennsylvania acted unconstitutionally when they passed a law in 2019 that allowed for anyone in the state to vote by mail instead of the previous law, which said you actually had to have an excuse if you wanted to vote by mail.

So, this is a new lawsuit in state court. There's already a similar lawsuit in federal court on this issue.

And all of these lawsuits, they have been met with a lot of skepticism from courts.

But this one today, yet another Hail Mary by Republicans to block the certification for Joe Biden.

And then of course, you have the situation in Michigan where Republicans sent that letter today to the state Board of Canvassers asking them to delay the certification that's scheduled for Monday at 1:00.

They're saying, we want you to stop the certification and we want an audit to happen first in Wayne County. That's home to Detroit.

But we have learned, and I have talked with election lawyers, that under state law, this is not even allowed, and the Republicans are really asking the state board, which has no power to grant this anyway.

The state board in this case, they're essentially a rubber stamp. It's their duty to certify the statewide vote that has already been certified by 83 counties in the state.

And the concern in Michigan is that, come Monday, the state board here could deadlock 2-2 on certification.

That means the two Republican members might vote no. And then this would go to the courts that would get involved. They would be asked to issue this order to certify.

But the last wrinkle here, Erica, is that the Michigan Court of Appeals and the Michigan Supreme Court, they are majority Republican- appointed judges.

So if this became a mess in the court, this could be a real mess all around in Michigan that starts on Monday.

So we're going to see how this unfolds both in Michigan, which is the -- could cause more havoc than what's being asked in Pennsylvania.

Because already, they've been met with skepticism in the courts here, but now they're trying the political route -- Erica?

HILL: Causing more havoc is really saying something at this point.

Jessica Schneider, good to see you. Thank you.

Joining us now, former White House counsel to President Richard Nixon, John Dean, and Republican strategist, Doug Heye.

Good to have you with us.

Doug, you're a former communications director for the RNC. Back in 2000, you took part in what became known as the Brooks Brothers Revolt, in which Republican operatives shouted down officials during a Florida recount.

We know if anybody could sympathize at this point with what is happening it is you. I know you've made the case these are vastly different situations.

DOUG HEYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

HILL: When we look at where we're at now, do you recognize the Republican Party that you have been a part of for so many years?

HEYE: Well, legislatively, what happens with Republican in Congress, by and large, yes. But what we're seeing right now, absolutely not.

And the differences are, you know, when we were at the Brooks Brothers revolt in Miami-Dade, it was 20 years ago tomorrow. And what we chanted was, count every vote.

It's a very different thing than what we're hearing today. We chanted, let them in, being let the media in, let the public see these votes be counted as opposed to doing these behind closed doors.

[16:35:04]

What we're seeing now from Republicans, just a few of them, obviously, but it's not only troubling for our democracy and the messages that we send to our allies and our adversaries throughout the world.

If you're a strong man right now, you know that the United States is essentially giving you license to do whatever you want.

But the difference is, what we saw at the RNC this week with Rudy Giuliani and others -- I put together press conferences in that same room quite often.

And this is not what Republicans were talking about ten years ago or even four or five years ago when I was working on events like this.

This is very scary, very different. And also, ultimately, will be futile. So it's a whole lot of crazy ado about nothing.

HILL: It's remarkable, too, as we look at -- when we look at where we're at.

John, President Trump, as we know, refusing to concede. I don't think anybody's holding their breath at this point for that to happen.

But if you go back to that moment during Nixon's presidency, when Republicans gathered and they told him it was over, it seems like that would be much more difficult to do with a Donald Trump than it certainly was with Richard Nixon.

JOHN DEAN CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I don't think it's going to happen, Erica. It doesn't seem that -- other than a handful of Republicans have even spoken out. Most of them are not recognizing the results.

I've also got to tell you that's one of the great myths of Watergate, that that happened.

In fact, when they went down to see the president, they were told by the chief of staff, don't push him. He's agreed to leave. If you push him, he might not leave.

HILL: Well, and I guess that would probably be the same in this case, too, right? If you do push him, it's not going to have a -- probably not going to make a difference, John.

DEAN: Exactly. So I don't think they -- certainly, no one's going to go down and push Trump. He would welcome that.

HILL: As we look at where we're at, though, the other difference, I think, was when you look at what was happening then, you know, the country had really turned in many ways on Richard Nixon.

DEAN: Yes.

HILL: There was a feeling in the country that was far different than what we are seeing now.

Why do you think it is that President Trump still has so much support at this point? As we know, it's not based in fact, it is not based in evidence, as we have seen from all of these cases.

Well, you know, I'm very anxious to see a very good breakdown on the 70-plus million who voted for him. I find that an astonishing number that he was able to marshal that kind of support.

Republicans are really braced to have their legs cut out from underneath them and it didn't happen. In fact, they -- 70 million Republicans embraced him.

And not -- I can account for about half of them as authoritarian personalities attracted to a strong leader. The rest of them, I don't get it. So, I'm not sure.

Nor am I sure, Erica, what exactly the president's strategy is. He jumps around on how many states he needs and which he's trying to flip.

He's got to get, by my count, 38 electoral votes. And the combinations he's working with don't always add up to the 38 votes he needs.

He's around 32 or 36, depending on which states he's playing with.

But he doesn't seem to have a strategy that actually flips the Electoral College clearly to himself.

HILL: There are so many questions, I have to be honest, at this point, John, as we look at all of this.

To John's point, the strong support that the president did have in the 2020 election, these are massive numbers in terms of voters who turned out to support Donald Trump.

And as we look at that, this has, as you said before, I mean, a lot has changed in the Republican Party.

What do you think happens to those numbers in the post-Trump era?

HEYE: You know, I don't think anybody knows right now, Erica, to be honest with you.

You know, we have a lot of Republicans who are jockeying to potentially be the first one to run if Donald Trump finally concedes, not defeat, but at least to reality.

But nobody wants to be that first one to step out and cross the president because of what we know can happen from Trump from a series of tweets with all the name-calling and so forth that could handicap or kneecap the candidacy before it starts.

But also, it's really important to remember, before any of this happens, we still need a president of the United States.

And what we have right now is somebody who's not looking after the country in the pandemic crisis, was not fully participating, obviously, in the G-20 pandemic meeting today, and instead was on the golf course.

And when you see all of the troubling things that are happening in the country right now, to have an absence of leadership in the presidency is a vast problem.

Much less not having a transition for the next president to be able to hit the ground running on those same problems that we need to tackle.

HILL: You know, it's such a great point. And it's one that I have talked about in the past.

But you look at this and we have a man who clearly wants to hold on to power. But it's not clear that he wants the actual job, John Dean, that he wants to do the work that comes.

[16:40:09]

Look, it's the hardest job there is. I don't want it. It's not easy.

But he's -- you know, to Doug's point, John, he's not leading right now. He's not leading on the coronavirus, which is ravaging this country on a daily basis.

And the trickledown effects touching every aspect of our lives, it's remarkable.

And so to your point about breaking down those 73 million voters, I wonder how many are concerned about leadership at this moment.

DEAN: You know, it doesn't appear that the voters are particularly concerned about whether he's leading or not.

He's not -- he was not leading the entire last year of his presidency. He's been out on the campaign trail trying to get re-elected. Since he's lost the election, he's given up any pretense of trying to

really be governing the country.

It is a tough job. It is stunning when you have nobody at the top giving any direction.

Can the departments and agencies go it alone without a president? Yes, they can.

But it's very -- it's not a consistent, congenial, well-operated machine.

And it needs the White House to sort out differences and conflicts that inevitably arise throughout the bureaucracy. And none of that's happening.

So Biden is going to inherit a colossal mess when he gets there and not be up to date on what's happening, obviously, when he does get there.

HILL: John Dean, Doug Heye, great to have both of you with us this afternoon. Thank you.

HEYE: Thank you.

DEAN: Thank you.

HILL: Keep in mind that colossal mess that John Dean just referenced.

Any incidents where the current administration is taking steps to make a transition harder isn't just about making it more difficult for the incoming president and administration.

It's making it harder for Americans every single day that that doesn't happen.

So Joe Biden might be the target. But up next, we're going to take a look at exactly what this means for you.

The story behind a decision to claw back billions meant for small businesses during a pandemic. That's next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:46:22]

HILL: As the pandemic continues to ravage the economy, Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin is cutting off critical lending money aimed to relieve the burden that Americans are currently shouldering.

And as Cristina Alesci explains, the move could have a devastating impact on the country's businesses going forward.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN BUSINESS & POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Erica, the treasury is cutting off funding for programs, which the central bank has been using or stashing away as additional economic stimulus.

Now, this money was used for emergency lending that supported corporate credit, municipal borrowing, and loans to small and medium- size businesses.

It doesn't make sense to pull those programs now with the economy struggling, as states and cities add more COVID-19-related restrictions on schools and businesses.

Unfortunately, this appears to be a political move on Trump's part. He's trying to remove money the central bank can use under a Biden administration, even though the end of that funding might hurt average Americans.

Now, here's the big picture. Unemployment claims rose for the first time in five weeks last week. The U.S. has only recovered half of the jobs lost since the spring. And Congress hasn't yet made progress on a fiscal stimulus deal.

That means that the Federal Reserve is the only actor that can help support the economy and hiring.

And ending one of the programs, in particular, might sting small and medium-sized businesses, which are the backbone of employment, the mainstream lending program.

Now, businesses haven't tapped that program in large numbers yet, but they might have to.

Meanwhile, the treasury secretary is downplaying the decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE MNUCHIN, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY (voice-over): As a result of Project Warp Speed and the president's commitment where we use CARES money to make major investments in health, we're in a different situation. There will be an end in sight --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

MNUCHIN: -- for this virus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALESCI: Yes, the situation is different now. It's worse in terms of the virus's spread.

And as for the Federal Reserve, it wants to keep the tools available that it has right now.

Releasing a statement saying the Federal Reserve "would prefer the full suite of emergency facilities established during the coronavirus pandemic to continue to serve their important role as a backstop for our still-strained and vulnerable economy" -- Erica?

HILL: All right, Cristina Alesci, thank you.

[16:48:37]

Well, maybe you think you know Hillary Clinton. But just who was she before her time atop the Democratic Party? That's next, live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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[16:53:37]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. Biden, should all Americans, sir, be able to attend religious services during the pandemic?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, safely.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Yes, safely. Indoors, sir?

BIDEN: (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: President-Elect Biden there, as you see, just moments ago departing St. Ann's Church in Wilmington, Delaware, where we're told he was attending mass.

You heard a reporter there ask him if all Americans should be allowed to attend religious services during a pandemic.

His answer, a little less easy to hear, if you will, than the reporter's question, but he did answer there saying, yes, safely.

A second question was shouted. We did not hear a response from that.

The next episode of the CNN original series, "FIRST LADIES," takes a look at the legacy of Hillary Rodham Clinton.

It's been nearly 30 years since she and President Bill Clinton first walked into the White House. She was immediately criticized, accused of being too ambitious, too involved in her husband's administration.

Her roles as a Senator and secretary of state under President Obama made her a Democratic Party powerhouse. A huge plot twist from her early years growing up in the Rodham household.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Hugh Rodham was a die-hard Republican and encouraged his daughter to campaign for Republican candidates like Barry Goldwater. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her father was furious when she went off to the

east coast to one of the finest women's schools in the country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Wellesley was a liberal all-girls college in Massachusetts. Hillary majored in political science and became president of the Wellesley Young Republicans in her freshman year.

[16:55:10]

But as a child of the '60s, events in the country started to influence her politics.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a fascinating turn that she took at Wellesley. She sort of found her own voice. Started to look at the Vietnam War differently. Talked about women's rights. She then became a really outspoken Democrat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: You can watch CNN's original series "FIRST LADIES," tomorrow night at 10:00 p.m. right here on CNN.

Stay with us. More news just ahead.

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