Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Travelers Pack Airports Despite Warning; Potential COVID Vaccines; Republicans are Losing Patience; White House Delays Transition Amid COVID Surge. Aired 9:30-10a

Aired November 23, 2020 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

DEVON LOWE, FLYING TO VISIT FAMILY: See them once a year. So it's like -- it's one of my main things that I -- I look forward to every year. So I just -- it's the one thing that I can get out of this year that will make my life a little better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Travelers tell me they are taking the necessary steps. They're wearing their masks, they're trying to maintain social distance and washing their hands.

Back to you guys, Jim and Poppy.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: OK, Adrienne, thank you for the reporting.

Let's discuss all of the latest COVID headlines and three potentially effective vaccines so far. Dr. Seema Yasmin is with us, former epidemic intelligence services officer at the CDC.

Good morning. It's great to have you.

DR. SEEMA YASMIN, FORMER CDC DISEASE DETECTIVE AND CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Good morning.

HARLOW: I was -- I was really encouraged hearing the White House vaccine czar, Dr. Moncef Slaoui, say this yesterday to Jake Tapper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MONCEF SLAOUI, CHIEF SCIENTIFIC ADVISER, OPERATION WARP SPEED: So normally with the level of efficacy we have, 95 percent, 70 percent or so of the population being immunized would allow for true herd immunity to take place. That is likely to happen somewhere in the month of May or something like that based on our plans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So if enough folks trust it and take it, does that mean we can get back to, quote/unquote normal, at least from a public health perspective, next summer?

YASMIN: To some degree of normal, Poppy, because, remember, just logistically if we're talking about vaccines that have to be given with two doses spaced out, we're talking about the production of hundreds of millions of doses, then there's a logistical challenge of getting it into health clinics, getting it into health care centers and making sure everyone who needs it gets it.

In the meantime, what can happen is people can drop their guard and say, well, there's a vaccine. We're going back to normal, right? Stop wearing masks. Stop doing physical distancing. That stuff could actually cause a spike in cases.

So what we need to do is a really careful rolling out of the vaccine, making sure those who are most at risk get it first, but also making sure that in the meantime everyone is still taking those really important infection prevention measures and not dropping their guard too soon.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: OK, let's talk about decisions between now and then because we've begun to see some very big school districts, New York City, for instance, I mean the state of Kentucky going all remote, while at the same time data has shown that with mitigation schools are not major propellants, if that's the right word, of this infection.

YASMIN: Right.

SCIUTTO: I just wonder, from your perspective, and, again, every community has to make its own decisions.

YASMIN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: But from your perspective, are some communities going too far?

YASMIN: Potentially, but it's so hard right now because, yes, you're a school and yes you can say, but we are so careful, we're using all these protection measures. We haven't had many cases. Some schools can really say that.

But then, if you're in a community where you're surrounded by a high rate of transmission and increase in cases and even your local hospitals getting overwhelmed, then the prudent thing might be to say, look, as a really good safety measure, we are going to go back into all virtual teaching, so it's really trying to factor in all those decisions, including all those factors that are outside of your control.

HARLOW: Something really interesting happened over the weekend, and that's Qantas Airlines, which is a big air carrier, said they are not going to let anyone on their planes once vaccines are out there unless they've been immunized.

YASMIN: Yes.

HARLOW: That seems like a -- like it could be a game-changing move if the other big carriers follow in their footsteps.

What do you think?

YASMIN: It could be, but, again, I just come back to some of the logistics.

HARLOW: Yes.

YASMIN: I'm a public health doctors, so I'm always thinking, OK, it's great even once you have a vaccine approved. We don't even have that right now. How do you get it into people's arms? And I know with some of the administration officials, they're doing the calculations, as we all have been and saying, if we have vaccines that are about 90 to 95 percent effective in the real world, OK, you need 70 percent of folks to agree to get vaccinated, that's not easy because we've seen with these surveys of the American public over the last few months fewer and fewer people actually are sharing trust in vaccines.

Fewer and fewer people are saying, yes, if there's one that's approved, I'll roll up my sleeve and I will get it. So even that step of convincing people that, yes, we've developed something, it's quicker than we've ever developed it and it's going to be safe, that in itself could be a massive road block.

HARLOW: Yes. I should note, it's for international flights that Qantas said this.

SCIUTTO: Right.

HARLOW: But I just wonder, are others going to follow, yes.

YASMIN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Yes, is that where we're heading, right, to have to show proof of that, you know, to move or to go to school, et cetera.

YASMIN: Right.

SCIUTTO: Dr. Semi Yazmin, thanks so much.

YASMIN: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Losing patience. More and more Republicans, though still not a majority, are splitting from the president as he relentlessly looks, and listen to this, to overturn the results of an election he lost.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:39:10]

HARLOW: Welcome back.

This morning still only really a handful of Republicans are rebuking the president's attempts to try to overturn a fair election. A majority of Republicans are choosing to remain tight-lipped. Their silence is just another symptom of this wildly divided country and Congress.

SCIUTTO: With us now is Cindy McCain, of course the widow of the late Senator John McCain. She is now serving on President-elect Biden's transition boards. Also with us, form North Dakota Democrat Senator Heidi Heitkamp. They are both part of a bipartisan push to restore civility in this country.

Goodness, we wish you luck in that, as do, I'm sure, many of our viewers today as they listen and watch. But, listen, we have hopes.

If I could begin with you, Cindy McCain, I wonder what your message is to what is frankly the majority of sitting Republican lawmakers who to this date have not publicly recognized the results of this election.

[09:40:11]

What do you say to them?

CINDY MCCAIN, WIDOW OF SEN. JOHN MCCAIN: Oh, it's so frustrating to watch this because the election has happened. Elections have consequences. And, unfortunately, the White House is not -- is seeming to keep beginning to -- not just beginning, but continuing to gin up people with regards to this election.

Biden has won. Biden will be our next president of the United States. And it's up to us as voters and participants in our communities to remind people of that. The fact that somehow we can gin up problems because Biden won is ridiculous. The whole thing is. And it doesn't do the democracy any good.

HARLOW: You know, Senator Heitkamp, you come from a state where you represent a number of Republicans and a number of Democrats when you were in the Senate. You are someone who has voted with President Trump a fair amount of the time, a little over half the time.

How did we get to a place where it appears, and I remember, by the way, Jeff Flake, former Arizona senator saying when he was leaving, bipartisanship isn't rewarded at all anymore in politics. You can't actually say what you think or do what you want to do and win again. And maybe that's what happened to you.

HEIDI HEITKAMP (D), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: Well, you know, it seems to me like we need a culture change. You know, it's interesting, I would recommend that all of my colleagues, Republican colleagues, read two speeches, read Al Gore's concession speech and read John McCain's amazing concession speech and then say, don't you want to be on that side?

Don't you want to be on the side of our democracy, and of a peaceful transition of power? And it's just what I find absolutely amazing is the stakes are so low. Think about this, losing an election is not the end of your life. So many people -- we expect so much across the world in terms of dissidents and people who are fighting for democracy. All we're asking of these people is to recognize the inevitable, recognize this result, to heal the nation.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HEITKAMP: But yet now we have people believing Michigan's not even going to certify the election today.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HEITKAMP: And this is really, really dangerous to democracy.

SCIUTTO: If, Cindy McCain, even that low-hanging fruit, right, of recognizing an election outcome that is not in question, there is no evidence of widespread fraud. I mean Michigan wasn't even close. It was 150,000 votes, nearly 3 percent. If that low-hanging fruit is not attainable today, I just wonder -- and we -- trust me, we want to hear it and I know folks at home want to hear it, what gives you hope that this initiative can bridge some of those differences and get things done.

MCCAIN: Well, I -- I truly believe that people are so frustrated with what's going on -- now, we've been saying that for a long time, but we have had an election and I think now the voters are so frustrated about what is going on that now we will take action, if that makes sense.

It's about -- listen, we voted. We're the ones that made this happen. Now it's time for us to make sure that it does happen and make sure that we do reward those who do right with civility and democracy and et cetera, and not play into the hands of those who believe that there's some kind of conspiracy.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Cindy, I, in covering the final months of the election, you know, with our guests on the program, kept coming back to and being reminded of that moment when your late husband responded, I believe it was a woman in Minnesota who said essentially -- called former President Obama an Arab.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: And he stopped, right, and he said, that's not true, he's a decent man. We have different ideas. I'm paraphrasing. Where did those moments go?

MCCAIN: That's a really good question. I -- we will miss my husband, and I do for so many reasons, and that's one of them.

I don't know where it went. I think -- I think we've been -- have delved into fear and the inability to stand up to people who are really bullies in the arena. And instead what we have are people that hang back and wait for somebody else to do it.

It's time we all step up and that we demand that of our elected officials. This is what they're elected for. Stand up for what you believe in and stand up for what's right for democracy and for this nation. SCIUTTO: Senator Heitkamp, we have quite a moment coming up at 1:00

this afternoon, of many moments, but an important moment where it's down to two Republican members of a state canvassing board whose job it is just to make sure the numbers add up, not to raise new questions, not to call for new investigations. But it's possible that both Republicans can vote against this and, in effect, attempt to overturn the results of an election.

[09:45:05]

I wonder what legislation would Congress need to pass or would you recommend to provide further safeguards against this kind of thing because we're seeing a dangerous precedent being set here.

HEITKAMP: Well, when you look at it, these bills were passed or these laws were passed to recognize that in a bipartisan way equal numbers in Michigan can certify the election, as a canvassing board. But, you know what, in these hyper partisan times it doesn't work. And so every state needs to look at a perhaps less partisan board, needs to look at maybe having a CPA firm certify it as opposed to politicians. And that's a really sad commentary.

I want to -- I want to just comment a little bit on what gives me hope. Cindy and I are going to be doing an event at noon basically with a number of very, very conservative members. And I'm on the board of directors of something called Restore Democracy Initiative. And so in spite of what's happening today, there are still good people on both sides of the aisle thinking about this democracy, thinking what we should recommend in terms of systemic changes and it's going to be, as Cindy said, we the people who initiate this because we can't rely on Washington anymore.

HARLOW: And the title of it this afternoon for you guys, Restore Civic Duty and Civility in America, because it really is our duty, right, or else we lose this precious -- this precious democracy.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: We thank you both so much, Cindy McCain and Senator Heitkamp.

SCIUTTO: Thank you.

HARLOW: We'll be right back.

MCCAIN: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:51:06]

SCIUTTO: Well, the president is holding up this transition, and it matters. It matters to you and me and the country. Our next guest says it could even have deadly consequences when it comes to the pandemic.

HARLOW: He writes this in a new op-ed, quote, if President Trump continues to block the full operation of the Biden transition, more people will die and the president's failures will continue to harm this nation well past Inauguration Day.

Joining us now is Leslie Dach, former Ebola coordinator for the Department of Health and Human Services under the Obama administration, and former -- and founder, I should say, and CEO of Protect our Care.

Good morning, Leslie. It's very good to have you.

You make the case really clearly, way beyond this is not about politics, you make it very clear in your op-ed all of the things that are missing from a health -- public health perspective. And if you could just outline those for folks so they understand why this transition matters, just in terms of keeping people safe and healthy.

LESLIE DACH, CHAIR, PROTECT OUR CARE: Yes. Well, the fact is that it's great to have these vaccines that look promising. But vaccines don't matter, vaccinations do. And it's an incredibly complex process. And I liken it a little bit to, imagine you were General Eisenhower and you knew that you would be responsible for D-Day, but you weren't allowed to talk to any of your generals.

You knew that a bunch of them were political appointments who weren't very good at their job and perhaps some of them even wanted you to fail. You didn't know how many tanks you had, how many planes you had, whether you had the gas you needed to get them anywhere. And that's exactly the position that Donald Trump and the GSA administrator have put Joe Biden into.

So without that information, something as complex as this is going to have problems. And every problem means Americans lives in danger.

SCIUTTO: I mean an example that you cite is sharing information about supply chains, right, for this, you know, which is -- which is going to happen on Joe Biden's watch. It's about getting the vaccine to you and me and that that's not just being -- not being shared with the Biden transition but also with state and local officials. I mean this is insane, right, given the scale of this.

DACH: It is insane. It is. I've talked to people in governors' offices. They don't have the details they need from this administration to plan. And, you know, this administration has really completely failed when it comes to personal protective equipment, which is necessary, or the syringes and viles and other materials they need. I mean they not only aren't driving the car, they've like pulled it off the side of the road and abandoned it.

And the fact is, without that kind of information, states are forced to compete with each other and many of them won't have the supplies they need to get people the vaccines when they need them.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: What's amazing and ironic and sad all at the same time is that the outgoing Obama administration left the incoming Trump administration a 69-page pandemic playbook. Now, they didn't use it. It really went out the window. But not only is that not being left here for the incoming Biden administration, but your argument here is things like prioritizing vaccination groups state by state, right, even that isn't being passed along.

DACH: No. The last time the administration published anything was a document in September. It's now November. And they supplied no new information. And that last document was woefully devoid of details. So when you want to get this to a rural part of America that's 30 miles from the nearest Walmart, you want to get it to a part of the inner city or a reservation that simply doesn't have access, they're not going to get these vaccines.

SCIUTTO: No.

OK, so we have to set the current president aside, right, because he shows no sign of either taking this seriously or helping the new administration.

DACH: Yes.

SCIUTTO: What does the Biden transition team and President-elect Biden have to do now to overcome the challenges?

[09:55:05]

DACH: Well, the first thing, the pressure needs to continue on the administrator of the GSA who could wake up any morning and just do her job and this problem would be gone. And so she needs to realize that she doesn't serve Donald Trump, but she serves the American people.

But while we're unfortunately waiting for that, I think the president- elect is doing what he needs to do, he is meeting -- or his people are every day with the people who are making the vaccines, with the Targets and the Walmarts that need to deliver them. He is meeting with scientists. He is doing every work around you can to get this information so that they can be as prepared as possible. And that's what they need to continue to do. And I think that's what they're doing.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Well, it's amazing this is the reality we're dealing with.

But, Leslie Dach, thanks so much for sharing your experience.

DACH: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: As new coronavirus infections surge here in this country and sadly across the globe, another vaccine thankfully is showing promise.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)