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U.S. Surpasses 12 Million Cases As Thanksgiving Nears; President-Elect Biden To Nominate Tony Blinken As Secretary Of State; More Republicans Losing Patience With Trump. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired November 23, 2020 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[11:00:29]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. Thank you so much for joining us this hour. We are following three big stories.

First, promising news in the quest for a coronavirus vaccine. AstraZeneca says late stage trials show its vaccine is on average 70 percent effective. This is the third drug maker to report positive results that's following Pfizer and Moderna. That encouraging news comes against the backdrop of just more terrible news.

The U.S. is now in the worst month of the crisis. More than a quarter of the total coronavirus cases have come in the month of November. And millions of people, as we are seeing, are looking past CDC guidelines and are traveling for the Thanksgiving holiday week.

There are big moves coming also in the presidential transition. President-elect Joe Biden is expected to announce his first cabinet picks tomorrow. And CNN has learned that Biden is expecting to nominate long-time foreign policy adviser Tony Blinken as the next secretary of state.

And with also the legal losses piling up for the Trump campaign and absolutely no evidence of widespread voter fraud, more Republicans are speaking up and stepping up. Speaking up about President Trump's attempts to overturn the election. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR: If legal team has been a national embarrassment.

GOV. LARRY HOGAN (R), MARYLAND: We're beginning to look like we're a Banana Republic. It's time for them to stop the nonsense. It just gets more bizarre every single day. And frankly, I'm embarrassed that more people in the party aren't speaking up.

REP. FRED UPTON (R-MI): The voters have spoken. Here in Michigan it was a 154,000-vote margin by President-elect Biden. And no one has come up with any evidence of fraud or abuse. It's over.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BOLDUAN: But still, that is so few voices relatively speaking and how many Republicans are still sitting by silently watching this play out. Today is a critical day in two key states, Michigan, as Fred Upton just mentioned there, and most counties in Pennsylvania should be certifying their election results today.

Michigan's election board will meet in less than two hours from now. And while this would normally be a routine, nonpartisan, not even talked about really step in the process, everyone is watching this one closely now with at least one of the Republicans on the board signaling that he's going to vote against certifying results, which could have wild ripple effects still in that state.

CNN's Dianne Gallagher, she's following all of this for us. She is live in Lancing, Michigan. Dianne, what are you hearing about today?

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, you know, Kate you kind of nailed it, this is supposed to be a mundane procedural vote that happens without much fanfare, if any fanfare. Right now, I actually have my mask on because we're having protesters that are starting to arrive, stop the steal, and there's also a certify the results caravan that's supposed to be happening right now. Trying to convince these four members of this board of canvassers to do what they say they should be doing.

Now, here's the thing. It's two members are Republicans. Two members are Democrats. You mentioned there is that one Democrat -- one Republican, excuse me, who has said -- told people, I don't think I'm going to certify because I still want there to be an investigation. That means all eyes are on the other GOP member of this four-person board because at least three members must vote in favor of certification for it to happen.

Now here's the thing. That GOP member has told people that he wants there to be more investigation done into potential voter fraud or abnormalities, but no evidence has actually been presented of what he's talking about. He says he wants to see what's going on.

According to the secretary of state, the election must be certified in order for them to actually investigate or do a recount or do an audit because that grants the state access to those voter logs and things of that nature. So, we're seeing these two not necessarily agreeing theories here. One of which is rooted in the law, the secretary of state says, so they have to certify.

What happens if they deadlock? Well, it goes to the courts most likely, to the court of appeals and then if they can't get a judge to force them to certify it could go all the way up to the state Supreme Court. After that it gets a little murkier, but it could end up going to the state legislature at that point. Kate?

BOLDUAN: I smirk only because a little murkier at that point. I feel like we're already in murky.

[11:05:00]

It's good to see you, Dianne. Great work. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Joining me right now is someone who knows a lot about that this. Jeff Timmer, he's a Republican who is a former member of Michigan's state board of canvassers. The board we're talking about right now. He's now a senior adviser to the Lincoln Project.

Jeff, thanks for coming on. What do you think is going to happen today?

JEFF TIMMER, FORMER GOP MEMBER, MICHIGAN BOARD OF STATE CANVASSERS: Well, I think this is turning into a circus. And it's complete with the clowns but to most people clowns are funny but to a lot of people they're scary. And I think we need to be scared about what could take place today.

BOLDUAN: Do you -- it really is unknown. It depends on how people are going to vote. Do you foresee this being delayed further or do you -- does your gut tell you that this is going to get wrapped up and there's going to be a 3-1 or 4-0 vote in favor of certification? What do you think?

TIMMER: All the evidence before us says this is going to be a deadlocked vote. Which is unlawful. The Republicans on the board, as well as the Democrats has a legal obligation to certify, and the two Republicans are attorneys. They're officers of the court. If they don't vote to certify they're taking an unlawful vote.

BOLDUAN: Look, and Jeff, you're not talking about just some people. You know these people, like Norman Shinkle. He is one of the two Republicans who's on this canvassing board. He's the one that we've been talking about who has been signaling that he is going to vote to delay, vote against certifying the results today. You know him, you've served on that board with him. What do you think his game is here?

TIMMER: I can't even begin to answer that. This board has no investigatory power. They have no ability to look into any allegations of fraud or misconduct. That's for the criminal justice system, not this board. This board is effectively at this point a rubber stamp that needs to certify the results before anything else can take place.

BOLDUAN: Have you had a chance to speak with him?

TIMMER: I have not. But I know many people who has. And he has indicated that he's not likely to vote in favor of certification. He'll probably have to answer to the Bar Association for that.

BOLDUAN: Do you think he should?

TIMMER: I think he should. He has to certify. It's his obligation. He has a sworn oath to do so.

BOLDUAN: When you say he should answer to the Bar Association, are you saying he should like lose his license?

TIMMER: Well, sanctions are definitely possible. The court has held canvassers in contempt before when they failed to do their duty. And as a lawyer, I would be worried about that.

BOLDUAN: Now, look, Joe Biden won Michigan by more than 150,000 votes yet the president and his team they are trying to delay the reality as we can see. And at least in part, part of the reason is fundraising. The president is funding his own post White House political life, his leadership pack by saying that he's raising money to fund these legal challenges. He's fundraising off of these legal challenges. If that is the reason that he continues to push, in Michigan, what do you say to that, Jeff?

TIMMER: Well, it's unconscionable. There are no legal actions in Michigan but there are people who think that there are. And he is -- he's fleecing his followers for more money to pay these debts from the campaign. And it really is unconscionable because what he's doing is he's threatening the rule of law and the faith in the elections.

We had an election in Michigan. It wasn't even close. Biden won by a margin 15 times greater than Trump won four years ago. This isn't close. It's over -- it's been over since Wednesday, November 4th, and it's time to move on.

BOLDUAN: Look, it seems -- the way you put it, it seems like it's pretty cut and dry. But the way that it's playing out is anything but cut and dry. How is this going -- what kind of long-term damage do you think is going to be had on election -- the electoral process in Michigan or how people view elections in your important state?

TIMMER: Well, what we're finding is that, you know, a solid majority of those who voted for Trump, the election is being stolen from them, and that's nonsense. It's going to undermine faith in democracy. People need to accept there are winners and losers in an election and sometimes their side loses. You move on and you fight the next election. That's what they should be doing right now.

BOLDUAN: Let's see what happens in the next couple of hours. Jeff, please come back on. I'm really interested to hear your take when we do find out how this vote ends up and then we look at what's next. Thank you.

TIMMER: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Let's get back to President-elect Joe Biden's transition. He's expected to announce his first cabinet picks tomorrow.

Joining us right now is CNN's Arlette Saenz. She's covering the Biden transition. It's good to see you, Arlette. Secretary of state, the person fourth in line of succession to the presidency, a hugely important cabinet position. What are you hearing about this?

[11:10:00]

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, we're expecting President-elect Joe Biden to announce his pick for secretary of state tomorrow, and it's expected that he will nominate Tony Blinken. This is someone who's been a long-time foreign policy adviser to Biden over the years going all the way back to his time in the Senate. He also served as a deputy secretary of state.

So, he brings a deep bench of experience to the Biden administration with his role in past foreign policy and diplomatic posts. And we have Biden doing here with a pick like Tony Blinken is turning to someone that has that decades of experience and also has worked closely with Biden.

So, understands what his world view and approach to foreign policy will be as Biden has said that one of his key priorities in the early days of his administration will be trying to rebuild those relationships with allies around the world.

BOLDUAN: What other posts are expected to be announced tomorrow?

SAENZ: We're also expecting that Biden will name his picks for the ambassador to the U.N. as well as his National Security adviser. For the National Security adviser role, the leading contender is Jake Sullivan, someone who has worked with Biden on both foreign policy and domestic policy and also served in the State Department alongside Hillary Clinton.

And then for the U.N. ambassador job, the leading contender is Linda Thomas-Greenfield. This is someone with decades of experience in foreign service and her - she's also a woman of color. So, her nomination, if Biden decides to go that way, would lend some diversity to the top officials in Biden's administration.

And then our colleague, Jeff Zeleny is reporting that President-elect Joe Biden is also expected to name his Treasury secretary after the Thanksgiving holiday. And it's expected to be a historic decision as he is looking to name the first woman to lead the Treasury Department. Two of the women under consideration there are Janet Yellen and Lael Brainard. Both with history at the Federal Reserve.

But Biden is making it clear that he is simply moving forward with his transition and filling out his administration even as the Trump - as President Trump has refused to concede the election.

BOLDUAN: Arlette, thank you so much.

Coming up for us, promising news on a third major coronavirus vaccine.

Plus, the most people traveling since the start of the pandemic and that is just the start of this holiday week. What is this week going to mean for the country?

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[11:16:53]

BOLDUAN: With Thanksgiving just days away, coronavirus cases and hospitalizations unfortunately are surging across the country. Sunday saw more than 142,000 new cases. The highest for any Sunday since the pandemic began. The situation in the U.S. is now much worse than in Europe just for some perspective. At least 10 states now average as many or more cases per capita than the hardest hit European countries. It's wild. And we are just starting this holiday week, of course, and the scenes at airports are making it clear that people are not staying home. The TSA is reporting the highest number of people passing through airports also since the pandemic began.

While that is troubling news, there's encouraging news on the horizon. Drug maker AstraZeneca announcing the results from large scale clinical trials of its vaccines. Let's start there.

CNN's Senior Medical Correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, she is joining me now. Elizabeth, what are you hearing about this vaccine?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: This vaccine is indeed effective. If we think for a minute about how the FDA was asking for these vaccines to be just at least 50 percent effective, that's all they were asking for. So, to come up with 70 is indeed good news. But I will qualify that by saying this is early data and not complete data.

So, let's take a look at what AstraZeneca found and how it contrasts with what two other companies found and announced in the past couple of weeks. So, AstraZeneca found that their vaccine was 70 percent effective. And that's based on the study of about 12,000 participants.

Moderna did a much larger study. About 30,000 people and they found much better effectiveness rate 24 - I'm sorry, 94.5 percent. Pfizer got 95 percent, and that's based on a 44,000 study -- participant study. So, as you can see, AstraZeneca did well but not as well as the other two, but AstraZeneca hasn't finished its worldwide study yet. We're still waiting to see more data. Kate?

BOLDUAN: And of course, the question becomes very quickly when can folks expect to start being able to get vaccinated?

COHEN: Right. That's what everyone wants to know. So, of course, it depends who you are. So, let's take a look at a forecast with the caveat that forecasts are often wrong. This is sort of the future as kind of outlooked by Dr. Anthony Fauci and also Moncef Slaoui, who's the head of Operation Warp Speed. They're making no promises. But this is the rough outlook that they have.

Let's take a look. Dr. Fauci saying last week that he thinks that towards the latter half of December we're going to see high risk people start to get vaccinated. That's the elderly, people with underlying medical issues, essential workers, health care workers. Then he said that by the end of April, he expects to see everybody else, people who don't fall into any particular group that they would start to get vaccinated, those are low risk people. And then in May, Dr. Slaoui says that he thinks by May, we will have immunized 70 percent of the U.S. population.

Again, this is prediction. Predictions are often wrong. It might turn out better than this. It may take longer than this. But that's the outlook from two of the people who are involved and in charge of this entire process. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Thank you, Elizabeth. Appreciate it.

[11:20:00]

I want to bring in right now for more, CNN medical analyst, epidemiologist Dr. Larry Brilliant. He spent his career fighting epidemics, including his work with the W.H.O. to wipe out smallpox. Good to see you, Doctor. Now having potentially three vaccines that are safe and effective and could get approval soon, what should that mean for people?

DR. LARRY BRILLIANT, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Thanks, Kate. Nice to see you.

Well, you know, it's the (inaudible) moment. It's like the tale of two cities. It's the best of times because three vaccines are better than one. The newest entry, AstraZeneca, it does not require refrigeration. That's terrific if we're talking about a global anti - global vaccination program which we're going to need in order to throw COVID into the dust bin of history.

And I'm not so worried about a 70 percent vaccine efficacy given enough time, I think that that can be improved with edge events and as we learn more.

So, it's the best of times also because we have got monoclonal antibody treatments. It's the best of time for learning how to treat people in hospitals. But Kate, it's the worst of times as we go into the Thanksgiving season. I'm very worried about the next few months. It's going to be a very difficult time.

BOLDUAN: Let me pull up some of those pictures again that we've shown from airports across the country as you're talking about what you're worried about. When you see these pictures, look, that looks like a normal airport in normal times. We're not talking about normal times anymore. When you see this, what do you think it means for what is ahead?

BRILLIANT: I immediately think about what happened in Canada, our brothers and sisters in Canada, of course, celebrate Thanksgiving in October. And they celebrated much like we do, families around a table coming from all over in airports just like that. And they had an explosion of cases in Canada.

And I'm afraid that there will be nothing to stop the virus for the next couple of months because of Thanksgiving holidays and then Christmas and New Year's. This is our holiday season. And that airport scene is what we expect.

It's not just the travel on an airplane. It's not just the going through the airport. It's that we're going to be importing the disease risk that every one of those people are bringing from whatever state or county they're coming to us for. It's like a mix master. It's the worst thing we can do for people. It's very advantageous if you happen to be the virus. BOLDUAN: Not what I want to hear. You also - you recently spoke with WIRED magazine and I was really struck by your prediction, your take, as you're describing now, on what the next few months could look like. At one point in your conversation you said that it is going to get worse before it gets better like you're saying here, Doctor.

You said, "I see a period of time when we're going to see refrigerator trucks in front of hospitals and not have a place in the morgue for the bodies that are going to show up. Where are you going to put the bodies? Where are you going to put patients? This is going to get worse."

I've already seen this in my own personal life, family member in the hospital and they are filling up, almost like half full of COVID patients at this point. It's really terrifying for what that means for anyone who would need hospital care, even outside of COVID related illness. Is this inevitable?

BRILLIANT: Well, it's inevitable for the short time because we sort of built in the mistakes that we made. We can't get back the two months that we lost in March or April. We can't get back the four or five months of denial of how bad the disease is.

I was born in Detroit, Michigan. I trained at a hospital in Detroit, Michigan. I saw the pictures back in the summertime of the hospitals in Detroit where the hospital capacity was overrun and the refrigerator trucks that were mobile morgues were used to move bodies around.

And yes, I worry that with 80 percent plus of hospital capacity already taken. And in some places, it's reaching 90 percent, no beds left. We will inherit the wind. We will inherit the mistakes that we've made by not taking this virus as seriously as we should in the past.

But the good news is that right around the corner we have vaccines. And as Dr. Cohen was just speaking about it, there's good times ahead. We need to - unfortunately, we need to -- we need to make it through the next couple of months that are going to be very tough. It's important to be truthful with everyone so they understand what's coming and they'll make a better decision. Maybe they'll have -- maybe all of us will have two Thanksgivings next year instead of a big family gathering this year.

BOLDUAN: I'll take you up on that, that's a wonderful idea. Something to look forward to once we get past this very, very, very troubling time. Doctor, thank you for coming on. I appreciate it.

[11:25:04]

BRILLIANT: Thank you, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, two top Pennsylvania officials, one Republican, one Democrat, on the Trump campaign's long shot attempts to disrupt and delay and overturn the vote there - the vote result there. What is going to happen in Pennsylvania there today? We'll find out.

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