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States Set to Begin Election Certification Today; Joe Biden Continues Cabinet Nominations; James Mattis Requests Biden End America First Policy. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired November 23, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL ANDERSON, PROFESSOR OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN STUDIES, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Thank you.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Thank you.

It is the top of the hour, I am Brianna Keilar. And as President Trump tries to sow discord and erode confidence in the election, the nitty- gritty details of the electoral process are taking on far greater significance than they usually go.

Today, Michigan and Pennsylvania are moving ahead with the certification of the vote. And this is a vote to finalize the fact that Joe Biden won both of those states. In Michigan, Biden won by a margin of more than 150,000 votes.

I want to bring in CNN political director David Chalian now to talk about this. And, David, Michigan is voting on certification today. Most counties in Pennsylvania are doing this as well, some have already done it. Georgia will have a recount, and two Wisconsin counties are in the middle of a recount. Take us through what this all means.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. You noted, these are now the formal processes of certification that will actually get Joe Biden to 270 electoral votes, which we already know he's going to have well north of that, Brianna, to actually be certified as the president- elect.

But you noted today in Michigan, look at this lead Joe Biden has there, 154,187 votes, 50.6 percent to 47.8. It's not even that close of a contest compared to some other of the battleground states. That is where the certification process is under way, and we're waiting to see if indeed the vote does get formally certified statewide today. But that would be another -- yet another -- nail in the coffin, if you will, the political coffin of Donald Trump trying to hang on here in some way.

You noted in Pennsylvania, where Joe Biden's lead is 80,000 votes, more than 80,000 votes, well over what Donald Trump won Pennsylvania by four years ago, Brianna. County by county, they are going through. We already got the Allegheny County certification done, Philadelphia's

going to come in later today. That all is going to certify enough votes that there's no chance that Donald Trump can convince a court -- especially what we heard from the court this weekend -- that somehow that should be upturned. So Pennsylvania will go into his column as well.

In Arizona, the counties are certifying the vote. You know, Maricopa County in Phoenix, 60 percent of the population lives there. As this vote gets certified county by county today, this narrow Biden victory -- 10,000 votes -- is going to get certified statewide next week, but by county today. Again, just putting a lie (ph to what Trump is saying about that there's a path here somehow for him to upend results.

And you noted in Georgia, Brianna, where Joe Biden has 12,670 votes more than Donald Trump, this has been certified statewide, this Joe Biden victory, but there is a recount under way, and because the margin is within 0.5 percent, Donald Trump and his campaign were able to ask for a recount.

That now is going under way, so there will be the initial count in Georgia, the hand-audit that happened all last week, and now an actual formal recount. But all state officials expect Joe Biden to maintain that lead and he will be declared the winner in Georgia yet again.

This is all to show that Joe Biden's 306 electoral votes, they're going to hold. Now we just are in that process of certification, and the electoral college meets December 14th to make it formal.

KEILAR: All right, David, I guess we'll keep seeing each other like this, David. We will keep seeing each other like this. David Chalian, thank you so much for taking us through this.

(LAUGHTER)

Any moment now, we should be getting a vote from the Michigan State Canvassing Board on its election certification. One Republican member is expected to vote against, but this could still pass. CNN national correspondent Dianne Gallagher is in Lansing, Michigan for us. Dianne, tell us what's going down at this canvassing board meeting.

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so Brianna, they started talking, and essentially at this point we're listening to public comments. The reason why we're listening to public comments now, because originally they were supposed to vote and then hear comments.

But that Republican we have been talking about who hadn't committed one way or another to how he was going to vote, Aaron Van Langevelde? Well, he said, look -- and I want to say, he said I think we were pretty limited today, I think we have a duty to do this. But then he made a motion to hear comments before the vote happened.

Now at this point, we are hearing from various commissioners and attorneys and advisers, who are essentially telling the board exactly that, you need to do this, it's your duty to certify this election. All they need are three out of the four to vote.

So the other Republican, who had made it clear beforehand, to Republican congressmen and others, that he does not plan to certify? If he doesn't do that, that's OK and they'll still get certification as long as three of them vote in favor.

Now, we don't know how long this public comment period's going to go, Brianna, it could go for hours, they could cut it off, we could be voting in the hour. We're just not sure of the timing at this point. But what's important here is that as long as they have those three votes, they will certify the election here in Michigan.

[14:05:04]

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that everything is done and over. The secretary of state has said that they're going to do an already planned risk-limiting audit here, and that would be the time when somebody could request a recount. Because, as she has said over and over again, if the election's not certified, they can't move forward with any of these requests that the Republican Party and some candidates have said they'd like to do to check out how the election went here in Michigan.

So certification has to come first, and then perhaps they can move on to other methods if in fact that is needed --

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: And the story goes on in Michigan. Dianne, than you so much for taking us through that.

We do have a new official statement today on the election. Quote, "The incumbent president must recognize the election results, and all lawsuits must conclude. Only after that will the results be officially finalized. Obviously, this hasn't happened yet." So that message is coming not from the White House, not from Republican leadership, but from the Kremlin this morning.

So think about that, as I run through the Republicans who are beginning to accept reality. You have Chris Christie, who called the legal challenges a, quote, "national embarrassment." Maryland Governor Larry Hogan, who said that it was like a banana republic, or starting to look like a banana republic. That earned him a mean tweet from President Trump in response.

Wyoming Congresswoman Liz Cheney says if the president has proof of fraud, show it. If not, stop it. And Pennsylvania Senator Pat Toomey officially congratulated President-elect Joe Biden.

CNN's special correspondent Jamie Gangel joins us now. You know, I guess the question is, will any of these kind of late defections actually have an effect on President Trump? What do you think, Jamie?

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm still laughing about the Kremlin maybe -- when the Kremlin finally says President-elect Biden, it will have an effect. Look, I think there is a mounting pressure. And today, when we see certification, every day, there will be more and more.

But I think there are some significant things. Liz Cheney, see is Republican leadership on the House side. We know that had an effect because President Trump tweeted. Steve Schwarzman, who is a businessman, a major donor, a loyalist: The fact that Steve Schwarzman has come out and said it's over, it's time for the country to move on? Those are very significant.

That said, will it have -- will it change Donald Trump? Probably not yet. One Republican source described it to me this way. They said his impact is fading, you can see it day by day. But it's like a balloon, and the air is coming out of the balloon and it's moving all around the room and it's hitting some people on the way with mean tweets, but eventually it will land on the floor. He's just not ready yet.

KEILAR: That is quite the visual, Jamie. I'm just sort of ruminating on that for a moment.

OK, so I know that you've been talking to folks. Tell us what are you hearing from Republicans maybe who aren't, you know, publicly coming out and saying what they believe, but what are they saying behind the scenes?

GANGEL: Behind the scenes, they are concerned about the same things that we've heard now from a few of these Republicans, that this is undermining democracy. But they also say that President Trump has never been really interested in what this is doing to the country of the Republican Party.

They think he's going to continue to fight. They say that has always been his default position, and that he will fight right to the end. They also take note that he's using this to raise money. And I want to give you one number, 332. That is the number, at last count, of fundraising e-mails and texts that the Trump campaign has sent out.

Much of this money will go to a post-presidential slush fund, this from the man who ran on I don't need your money. He's apparently working very, very hard to get that money. And the rest of the Republicans are very concerned about it because that also has to do with the future and control of the party.

KEILAR: Yes, control of the party. What does that allow him to do? So you know, what can he spend that money on and what can't he spend that money on? And you know, is there really any sort of apparatus in place to stop him from doing something that is questionable, if legal?

[14:10:01]

GANGEL: Right. We have yet to see something really stop Donald Trump. And the other part of this fight is, we've talked last week about whether Donald Trump might pardon himself. Part of this argument may be -- part of the fighting is they're out to get me, I'm a victim, they're not fair to me, I haven't done anything but I need to pardon myself, I need to maybe pardon family members because they're going to come after me. So I think these are the things we're going to see in the coming weeks. I did ask one Republican source who is very close to the White House,

will President Trump ever concede? And the person laughed and said to me, yes, but not in the way you think. What he will do is, he will concede in his own way. Look for the words, "The election was stolen." That's as close to a concession as you'll get.

KEILAR: Yes. Does he leave the White House, right? Physically? That might be the concession that he does with his feet --

GANGEL: Correct.

KEILAR: -- instead of his mouth. Jamie, thank you so much --

GANGEL: Of course.

KEILAR: -- really appreciate the report.

President-elect Joe Biden is not letting Trump's transition roadblock slow him down. He has just unveiled his national security and foreign policy teams, and the names signal to allies around the world. CNN is learning more about who is on the short list for Treasury secretary, as well as the two top contenders that could shatter some glass.

Plus, we are just days away from the Thanksgiving holiday and Americans are now traveling at pandemic-high records, going against CDC guidelines.

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[14:16:10]

KEILAR: President Trump has been obstructing the presidential transition for weeks, but President-elect Joe Biden is pushing ahead and announcing new members of his administration. And today, he revealed who will take the helm (ph) of his foreign policy and national security teams. Our resident expert Jeff Zeleny is in Wilmington, Delaware with the details.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, we are seeing some of those names that President-elect Biden is going to nominate to key posts. John Kerry, former secretary of state, will become a presidential envoy for climate change and will be a member of the National Security Council, certainly elevating the importance of climate change but also a historic first at the Department of Homeland Security.

President-elect Biden is saying he will indeed nominate Alejandro Mayorkas. He will be the first immigrant and Latino -- if confirmed -- to serve as the head of DHS, as well as the director of National Intelligence, another historic pick there, of Avril Haines, a veteran of the Obama administration, a former deputy director of the CIA. So those are three of the names we're seeing in addition to so many more as the Biden transition team clearly puts out these announcements quickly -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Jeff, thank you. Biden is turning to an Obama alum for the coveted Secretary of State

post, Tony Blinken. D.C. insiders say this signals a return to a more traditional foreign policy stance by the U.S. that favors international relationships. Of course, Blinken's someone who has worked very closely with the former vice president as well. We have more now from CNN national security correspondent Kylie Atwood.

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, I'm hearing from U.S. diplomats around the world and here in Foggy Bottom, welcoming the fact that Tony Blinken is going to be chosen as the secretary of state to President-elect Joe Biden.

And Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield will be the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. Now, she is someone who is a 35-year foreign service officer. She is well known by diplomats, she has served around the world and they love that she has those credentials of being a foreign service officer.

Now, they also recognize that Tony Blinken, someone who is also known in this building because he was the deputy secretary of state in the last two years of the Obama administration, he is close with Joe Biden. He has worked with him for almost 20 years. What that means it that when he travels abroad as secretary of state, the policies that he is pursuing, what he is trying to achieve will have the seal of approval of the president. That is hugely significant for American diplomats abroad -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Kylie Atwood, thank you.

And President-elect Biden is expected to make history with his choice for Treasury secretary. CNN politics and business correspondent Cristina Alesci is here to tell us why -- Cristina.

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN POLITICS AND BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, it's down to two women for Treasury secretary, according to our colleague Jeff Zeleny. Biden has whittled down the list to former Fed chair Janet Yellen or current Federal Reserve governor Lael Brainard.

Now, both of these women would make an historic appointment, the first woman Treasury secretary, and both of these women have worked at the highest levels of economic policymaking. They also have very similar views on policy like interest rates and bank regulation.

Now, I should point out that these two women have supported easy money policies just like the current Treasury secretary, Steven Mnuchin. But they would differ from him in important ways. On banking regulation for example, and on helping cities and states with additional funding through this very difficult period during the pandemic -- that's according to left-leaning policy think tank Employ America.

KEILAR: All right, Cristina, thank you for that report.

I do want to bring in now our CNN global affairs analyst and senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations Max Boot. Max, the former Defense secretary, James Mattis called on President-elect Joe Biden to strip all references to America First from America's strategy, which would be dumping a key mantra of Donald Trump.

[14:20:05]

He actually -- if I can read this -- wrote this in "Foreign Affairs." He said, quote, "In January, when Biden and his national security team begin to reevaluate U.S. foreign policy, we hope they will quickly revise the national security strategy to eliminate 'America First' from its contents, restoring in its place the commitment to cooperative security that has served the United States so well for decades."

What did you think, seeing Mattis say this?

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I think it's -- General Mattis is reflecting the consensus of the foreign policy community. I mean, America First was a terrible label with a horrible history. This was the phrase used in the 1930s by pro-Nazi isolationists, so the fact that Donald Trump revived it, that was designed to provoke and to outrage -- and it did.

And after the disasters of the Trump presidency, I think that phrase hopefully will not be heard from again for another 70 years or so.

KEILAR: How important is it for Biden to have this cover from someone who worked in such a prominent role actually kind of, in a way, carrying out this very strategy or certainly being tethered to it? How much cover does that give Biden?

BOOT: I mean, it certainly helps. I mean, the fact that Biden got so many popular votes that he got a margin of more than 6 million votes and more than 51 percent of the popular vote, that carries its own legitimacy. But there is no question that you know, the course he's embarked on is one that will need bipartisan buy-in, especially if Republicans keep control of the Senate.

And so I think the choices that President-elect Biden is making for his cabinet are very encouraging in that respect because these are very centrist, mainstream figures with great credibility on both sides of the aisle, and certainly the policies they pursue are not going to be some kind of far-left socialism as Donald Trump seemed to suggest during the campaign, it's going to be a much more traditional foreign policy of American leadership and cooperation with allies.

That's something that Jim Mattis and others advocated for within the Trump administration. They were ignored. Now, I think their views will be well represented in the Biden administration.

KEILAR: OK, let's talk a little bit more about the picks that we're seeing. It's very interesting, of course, to watch this national security team take shape and it does tell us, as you were explaining, so much about the philosophy of what a Biden administration will do. Is there any one of these picks in particular that kind of stands out to you?

BOOT: I think they're all outstanding. I mean, what really stands out to me, Brianna, is the fact -- is that you're not seeing grifters, you're not seeing unqualified con artists, you're not seeing people who are, as far as we know, under investigation by the FBI.

I mean, it just makes you realize all the misfits that Donald Trump appointed to office. And by comparison, this is -- that was really -- Trump really had the Z team, this is really the A team. I mean, it's really striking to me from Tony Blinken on down, they are all incredibly qualified with decades of experience, deep knowledge of foreign policy, deep commitment to American leadership.

And just as importantly, they also know Joe Biden, they've worked with him for a long time and that's going to be a key advantage because there is going to be a trust and confidence in that team that you don't see amid the backbiting of the Trump administration.

KEILAR: Is there anyone who he might have a hard time getting through a Republican-controlled Senate, should we see the special elections in Georgia not swing his way?

BOOT: I don't think so. I think he shied away from some choices like Susan Rice for secretary of state who might be more controversial. And I think, you know, you've seen signals from some of the more centrist Republican senators like Mitt Romney and Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski that they are going to give President Biden a lot of leeway on his cabinet picks.

And so I can't imagine that any of the choices that have been announced so far will set off any alarm bells. I think if anybody's going to be alarmed, it's going to be the Bernie Sanders, progressive wing of the party. But they don't have a veto in the Senate or anywhere else.

KEILAR: Yes, they do at the ballot, right? That's what we're going to see, how do voters on the left feel about whether they think they're getting a delivery from now the president-elect, Biden. We'll see.

Max, thank you so much, really appreciate your insight.

BOOT: Thank you.

[14:24:17]

KEILAR: So as we're getting closer and closer now to Thanksgiving, medical experts are begging people to stay home and there are no beds anywhere. That is why we're going to speak to the ICU doctor in Minnesota whose hospital is overwhelmed by COVID patients.

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KEILAR: We begin this Thanksgiving week with coronavirus numbers that can only be described as disastrous, 20 straight days of 100,000-plus new infections a day. And most of those days, we just soared right past that 100,000 number, we averaged 170,000 new infections a day over the last week.

The U.S. has added 3.1 million new cases just this month, and hospitalizations are rising as dramatically as the case numbers. For the last 13 days, hospitalizations nationwide have broken the record that was set the day before, they're just trending up and up and up.

Eighty-four thousand Americans hospitalized right this moment with coronavirus according to the COVID Tracking Project. On Sunday, more than 900 deaths were reported in this country with the average daily death toll being 1,500, the deadliest since May.

[14:30:01]