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Coronavirus Cases Continue Rising In States Across U.S.; Biden COVID-19 Advisory Board Member Discusses Distribution Of COVID-19 Vaccines; Former Government Cyber Security Chief Debunks Claims Of Fraud In 2020 Election; President Trump Not Committing To Attending Inauguration Of President-Elect Joe Biden; Americans Flood To Food Banks As Economic Downturn Due To Coronavirus Pandemic Continues; Tensions Between Israel and Iran Increase As Iranian Nuclear Scientist Assassinated. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired November 28, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

AMARA WALKER, CNN HOST: It has been a lonely time for so many of us.

That is our time. Thanks for joining me. I'm Amara Walker. We have much more just ahead in the NEWSROOM Boris Sanchez. And that starts right now.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is the top of the hour. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm Boris Sanchez in for Ana Cabrera.

We begin with a grim reality during the holiday season -- 13 million Americans have been reported to have coronavirus since the crisis began, 4 million of those cases in November alone. Think about that, as we see a president still refusing to concede and hitting the golf course once again. By our account, one-fifth, 20 percent of President Trump's days in office have been spent hitting the links, something he frequently criticized his predecessor for.

Think about these images as you consider the millions of Americans lining up for food this Thanksgiving weekend, terrified their unemployment benefits are about to run out, all while Congress is on recess instead of fighting to help these Americans to get a relief bill passed.

Also, keep in mind, it's about to get worse. One of America's top infectious disease experts is now warning that the post-holiday case surge will be destabilizing for the nation's health care system, the economy, and homeland security.

So we don't need to tell you, good news has been hard to come by these days. Fortunately, science is coming to the rescue. Next week, a CDC committee will hold an emergency meeting to determine who will get the coronavirus vaccine first. We're going to talk to an expert about that in just a moment, but first, let's get to CNN's Miguel Marquez and Paul Vercammen. They're both at coronavirus testing sites. Let's start with Paul in Los Angeles where a new stay-at-home order gets set to take effect on Monday. Paul, what does this order mean for residents there? PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, essentially, Boris, it is

this -- people from one household are not to be congregating with people from other households, both indoors and outdoors. So we have gone back to a situation in Los Angeles where they really don't want anybody doing anything other than staying at home. Yes, you can go get gas and go to the grocery store. But for example, for those essential retail businesses such as a grocery store, they want to limit the capacity in there to about 35 percent.

What's still inbounds is you can go to the beach or you can go hike, just so long as you keep your mask on and you stay six feet apart from other people.

In the meantime, all of California, but L.A. County especially, extremely aggressive COVID testing campaigns as well as tracing. You can see here that this testing site, this is at the veterans' campus in West Los Angeles, they actually sort of have two areas, if you will, people coming through here and getting the oral swab. And we talked to some of these people who said they try to get tested, especially for their older relatives right ahead of the Thanksgiving holiday. They were so jammed up they couldn't get in. And now they really worry about a lot of the younger people are worried about their older parents and their grandparents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY NUGENT, LOS ANGELES RESIDENT: My thought is it's the least we can do, considering we're not on the front line and many of those are, and they're putting their lives at risk every single day. They don't get to choose, having to isolate themselves after working here, whereas we are very fortunate, we're able to stay at home for work. So I think it's the very least we can do to make sure we know we're not spreading something unknowingly to those that can't protect themselves, to those that actually need to be here and be healthy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERCAMMEN: And she was highlighting the hard work of those poor employees as well as volunteers who are on their feet for hours on end conducting these tests. And in California, we have passed 19,000 deaths, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Hard to hear those numbers and to really put it in perspective for folks. Paul, please stand by.

We want to get to Miguel Marquez. He's in New York where the positivity rate has been steadily ticking higher, and where lines to get tested have been up to five hours long on some days. Miguel, what are you seeing today?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They're not that way today. They were certainly that way before the holiday, but they have come down significantly, and that is something that epidemiologists have expected. We are basically in a long weekend phase right now where the number of people getting tested has gone down, the number of tests coming back have gone down, and that reflects in the numbers so far that Johns Hopkins are putting out, saying that 119 so far today Americans have died from the disease, and about over 20,000, but 22,500 tested positive. That is way, way below where we were in the days leading up to the Thanksgiving holiday.

[14:05:03]

So what they expect over the next several days is for all those numbers to go down, just like it's a long weekend, essentially. And then after the holidays, certainly within two weeks after Thanksgiving, they expect to see those cases go up. And whether you're here in New York city where they had just a horrible, horrible spring, or in El Paso, Texas, where they are really dealing with it right now, or Cresco, Iowa, small towns and big, the number of cases are rising.

The hospitalizations is the most concerning number. The hospitalizations are going up to record levels right now. And health care workers are exhausted everywhere, and no one knows where the top of that wave is. Epidemiologists looking at Christmas maybe an absolute horrendous time. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Yes, that's the concern from health experts, that we have this surge around Thanksgiving, and with so many people traveling and getting together in confined spaces, it represents a nightmare come Christmas time. Paul Vercammen in L.A., Miguel Marquez in New York, thank you both so much.

Joining us now to talk about where things stand with COVID-19 and where they are going to go is a member of President-elect Joe Biden's COVID-19 advisory board and a former assistant commissioner of health in New York City, Dr. Celine Gounder.

Dr. Gounder, thanks so much for joining us today. I want to ask about this CDC committee meeting on December. You said you believe that Joe Biden is going to let the scientists decide who gets access to the vaccine first, and I'm curious, who would you recommend be in that first group?

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, BIDEN COVID-19 ADVISORY BOARD MEMBER: Well, certainly, health care workers. So doctors, nurses who are caring for patients in the hospital, including patients with coronavirus, should very much be among those first receiving the vaccine. And then beyond that, there are other frontline workers, essential workers.

Whether that's the people who are working in food and meat processing, people who are at the grocery store checkout counter, so people who are doing things that we really can't function without, whether that's with respect to food or drugstores or teachers, for example. So I think these are the kinds of groups we will look at probably seeing receiving the vaccine on the early end of things.

SANCHEZ: And how about kids, where should they fall on the list? Because I know, obviously, we've learned from studying this virus that usually the younger you are, the less susceptible you are to it. But there are some special needs kids that might benefit from getting access to this vaccine early. GOUNDER: Yes, I do think you will see likely, whether it's children or

adults, people with underlying medical conditions that do put them at higher risk for severe coronavirus. So for example, people who have sickle cell disease we have seen with higher risks of complication and deaths. So those are groups that would be prioritized in some form in these recommendations.

SANCHEZ: I also want to know, is the Biden COVID advisory board getting looped into this CDC committee meeting and others like it?

GOUNDER: The CDC committee meeting is really its own scientific advisory group. It is not a political group. This is really just trying to vet the science and make appropriate public health recommendations to maximize the benefits, so really try to save as many lives as possible.

SANCHEZ: Yes, I'm glad you made the distinction between what is science and what is politics. Notably, President Trump had some pretty tough words about Joe Biden when it came to a coronavirus vaccine. I want you to listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Don't let Joe Biden take credit for the vaccines. If Joe Biden -- Joe Biden failed with the swine flu, H1N1, totally failed with the swine flu. Don't let him take credit for the vaccines, because the vaccines were me, and I pushed people harder than they've ever been pushed before. And we got that approved and through, and nobody has ever seen anything like it. And you've got a big resistance in the FDA from years and years of people working there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: A quick point of fact. At no point have I seen or heard Joe Biden suggest that he should get credit for the upcoming coronavirus vaccines, but do you think you're getting what you need from the Trump administration for a seamless transition?

GOUNDER: Well, since ascertainment has gone through, there does seem to be some quite genuine outreach between the current administration and the transition team and advisory board in terms of sharing the information that's needed. I think it's important to remember that many of the people who work in the administration are lifelong public servants. They're not political appointees, and they really are there to serve the public, which means making sure that this transition goes as smoothly as possible.

[14:04:00]

SANCHEZ: Right. So I've heard different timetables from different folks, and I'm curious, what do you think is the earliest we're going to see the first vaccines administered?

GOUNDER: Yes, I think you're going to see front line health care workers and, shortly thereafter, other essential workers being vaccinated end of December and into January, and then other groups probably sometime after that.

SANCHEZ: And right now, it appears that we're most likely going to have multiple vaccines. They're going to need to be shipped and stored at different temperatures and administered according to specific guidelines. And I'm wondering if you think the United States has the infrastructure in place to pull off something at that large scale right now.

GOUNDER: There are certainly plans in the works. So this is planning that's happening between the pharmaceutical companies that are producing the vaccines, the state and local health departments as well as the CDC, and then also retail pharmacy chains that will be helping with the distribution. So amongst those -- and I should add to the list big health systems, hospital systems, academic medical centers.

So across those different groups, you do have some of what you needed in terms of the freezer, deep freeze capacity, and that sort of thing. But it's really a question of how do you make use of the resources we have, how do you coordinate the logistics of where you store and then where do you distribute.

SANCHEZ: It certainly appears like it's going to be a challenge, one that will likely be met. But then there's the other challenge of getting folks who are skeptical about this vaccine or vaccines in general to actually take it. Dr. Celine Gounder, we have to leave it there. Thank you so much for spending part of your Saturday with us. We appreciate your perspective.

President Trump's attempt to overturn the election has been hit with two crushing blows. A Pennsylvania judge rebuking fraud claims because the Trump team did not have any evidence. And the recount in Wisconsin's largest county, it's just in. It actually made things worse for the Trump campaign. We'll have more on that ahead. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:22]

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. The cyber security chief fired by President Trump for calling the 2020 election the most secure in American history is speaking out against the president's claim that the system was rife with fraud. CNN's Jeremy Diamond is at the White House with that story. Jeremy, Chris Krebs is not backing down, and this is coming as the Trump campaign suffers yet another humiliating loss, squandering millions of dollars on a recount only to prove that they actually lost by more than they thought they did.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, that's right, Boris. Chris Krebs was fired by the president about 10 days ago now. And why was he fired? He was fired because he told the truth about the 2020 election and the fact that it was the most secure in American history as he and state and local election officials across the country have attested to.

But if the president thought that by firing Chris Krebs he was going to be silencing him and preventing him from debunking the conspiracy theories that the president and his lawyers have been promoting, then he was sadly mistaken. Here's Chris Krebs on "60 Minutes."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me ask for your reaction to some of the vote fraud that the president and his team have been alleging. Votes tabulated in foreign countries.

CHRIS KREBS, FORMER DIRECTOR, CYBERSECURITY AND INFRASTRUCTURE SECURITY AGENCY: So all votes in the United States of America are counted in the United States of America. I don't understand this claim. All votes in the United States of America are counted in the United States of America, period.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Communist money from China and Cuba used to influence the election?

KREBS: Look, I think these, we can go on and on with all the farcical claims that alleging interference in the 2020 election, but the proof is in the ballots. The recounts are consistent with the initial count, and to me, that's further evidence, that's confirmation that the systems used in the 2020 election performed as expected, and the American people should have 100 percent confidence in their vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: And the debunking that we're hearing from Chris Krebs there is also being echoed by state and local election officials in key battleground states across the country. It's also something that we're starting to hear from judges, because the Trump campaign has been trying to overturn the results of the election in key battleground states by suing, especially to try and stop the certification of the votes in key states like Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and Michigan.

And so far, all of those efforts have come up short. In fact, the Trump campaign has now lost or had to withdraw -- the Trump campaign and their allies, I should say -- have now lost or withdrawn more than 30 cases in state and federal courts across the country.

And in fact, as the president continues to pursue these baseless claims, he's actually helping to bolster the case that this election was secure and certainly not fraudulent, and that's because of the opinions that you're hearing from some of these judges. One judge, a federal judge in Pennsylvania just yesterday rejected the Trump campaign's claims, saying they had no merit whatsoever. And that is a similar message you're hearing from other judges as well.

The Trump campaign's efforts to pursue recounts, as you mentioned, Boris, they are also failing. The Trump campaign paid $3 million to have two key counties in Wisconsin recount the votes. One of those counties, Milwaukee County, actually got the results back yesterday. Joe Biden had a net gain of 132 votes out of several hundred thousand votes in that county alone.

We're still waiting for the results in Dane County, but clearly this is another blow that the president and his campaign are suffering as they try and overturn the results of this election. It's certainly not going well, and Wisconsin is set to certify the results of its election on Tuesday, so the Trump campaign's window for continuing to object to this is certainly narrowing, if not vanishing altogether. Boris?

[14:20:07]

SANCHEZ: That's right, Jeremy. And I just wanted to very quickly point out, that judge you were talking about in Pennsylvania who wrote that scathing decision, that was actually a Trump-appointed judge. So accusations of bias just fall flat on their face. Jeremy Diamond from the White House, thanks so much.

Joining us now to discuss all of this is professor of history at Yale University Timothy Snyder. He's also the author of the book, "On Tyranny, 20 Lessons from the 20th Century." Professor Snyder, thanks so much for chatting with us today. For a split second this week, President Trump seemed like he was ready to accept reality, that he would soon leave the White House. Here's that moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If the Electoral College does elect President- elect Joe Biden, are you not going to leave this building?

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Just so -- certainly, I will. Certainly, I will. And you know that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Shortly after that, the president tweeted this, quote, "Biden can only enter the White House as president if he can prove that his ridiculous 80 million votes were not fraudulently or illegally obtained." There is no evidence that Joe Biden's 80 million plus votes were obtained illegally, just a point of fact. Sir, by not conceding, by pushing it this far despite tacit admissions that he lost and his continued losses in court, what do you that think President Trump is exposed as far as the weaknesses in our democracy?

TIMOTHY SNYDER, HISTORY PROFESSOR, YALE UNIVERSITY: Well, we have a very cranky system. If the system were less cranky, if we didn't have all these levels, if we didn't have all these levels, if we didn't have the Electoral College, if we voted on a holiday, if we weren't working from an 18th century document, then we wouldn't have these problems.

But I think the things that he's exposing may have more to do with the administration than with the system. What he's exposing is that he's more concerned with the story about himself than he is about the disasters that are continuing in domestic policy, but also with the joy that he's giving to dictators abroad and to leaders abroad, say, in China or in Russia, who like to claim that democracy is either a mess or a joke.

SANCHEZ: I wanted to ask you about that specifically, because so far it appears that the system has worked, that on January 20th at noon, President-elect Joe Biden is going to be inaugurated, and President Trump is potentially going to run again in 2024, but he will leave the White House. Despite the system working, there is a harm done more generally if half the population believes that, or likely less than half, but a large portion of the population believes that the election was fraudulent. And as you noted, it boosts the idea abroad that democracy does not work.

SNYDER: As you also suggested, boosts the idea at home that democracy does not work. Let's imagine that we go into 2021 with this alternative reality alive. Let's imagine what that means. It means that Mr. Trump and probably a considerable amount of the Republican Party are telling a big lie.

They're saying something about the system, about the outcome of the elections which they know not to be true. They're encouraging this view, which is not just a big lie but a conspiracy theory, because if you believe it, you have to imagine not only the Democrats, but the judges and the vote counters and all of those black people in all those cities were somehow in on this conspiracy.

And that's the third thing which is wrong with this, is that you're telling people, basically Trump voters whose votes were counted, that they are the victims, and in doing so, you're reversing the truth, the basic truth of American history, which is that the people who are at real risk at being disenfranchised are African-Americans.

You're reversing that story. And that itself is not only tragic and unfair, but it's also dangerous. When you teach people who have power that they are victims, then you're risking that people who have power will go outside the system the next time, that they'll expect that their own party will and should cheat the next time, or even worse outcomes.

SANCHEZ: Professor Snyder, I'm taken aback by the comment you just made. That was very poignant and powerful. The president was asked this week also if he would attend Joe Biden's inauguration. I want you to listen to his answer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's tradition for previous presidents to go to the next president's inauguration. So will you attend --

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't want to say that yet. I know the answer. I'll be honest, I know the answer, but I just don't want to say it yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN has learned that President Trump's advisers will strongly encourage him to attend the January 20th inauguration, even if he doesn't concede the election. If he is not there, or he attempts to counterprogram, announcing that he's running in 2024 on the same day, what implications does that have?

[14:25:07]

SNYDER: Things like this vaguely have happened before. Adams didn't attend Jefferson's in 1801. Hoover was certainly a bad sport about FDR in 1933. I think Trump loses in a tactical and a media way on January 21st if he tries something like that. Obviously, the eyes of the nation will be on the inauguration.

The question, I think, really is whether the Republican Party loses after that, because what that would mean is embarking on this kind of alternative or counter reality, where you either have to choose to go in on the big lie or not from that day forward.

So I think what he would be embarking on is a kind of attempt to conquest the Republican Party for the next four years on the basis of a story which is a about his own martyrdom. And since it's about his own victimhood, it's about him, he'll always win in that story. And so the interesting thing for me is, if he tries that, are there then any Republicans who have an interesting response to it? That, for me, would be what to watch.

SANCHEZ: You've certainly have given us a lot to think about, especially that tie between victimhood and conspiracy, and especially the idea that this widespread lie that a portion of the society just absorbs could lead to enormous ramifications down the road. Dr. Professor Timothy Snyder, thank you so much for your time, sir. Appreciate it.

SNYDER: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

Holidays are already a hard time for many families facing economic hardship, and this year, it's even worse, long lines at food banks and millions of Americans out of work. When we come back, how President- elect Biden is going to handle this economic crisis on top of the pandemic. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:31:16]

SANCHEZ: This week, we saw a tragic reminder of the cost of division in Washington, people flooding to food pantries in cities from coast to coast, desperate for the basics to feed themselves or their families. In fact, the hunger relief organization Feeding America says more than 50 million Americans could face food insecurity by the end of the year. All while Republicans and Democrats in Congress are not even meeting at this point to negotiate a relief bill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's hard. My mortgage went up. My taxes went up. And I could barely afford it, besides all my other bills.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you need the food?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Definitely need the food.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I haven't been working since December. Can't find a job. They cut off my unemployment. It's a big deal. It's a real big deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Just last week, 778,000 people filed for first time unemployment benefits, and for 12 million others, those benefits are set to run out the day after Christmas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's hard to find a job today. And I would do anything to just find something to get money and supply. But it's hard. And we're so worried every day. If it wasn't for this place, we don't know where we would get our food, because we need to pay our bills.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: You can feel that woman's pain, and that pain and suffering is going to be one of the earliest challenges for the president-elect. Next week, Joe Biden set to unveil his economic team, and sources tell CNN it will include former Federal Reserve Chair Janet Yellen as Treasury Secretary.

Let's dig deeper on the challenges for the president-elect. Joining us now, former Clinton White House press secretary and CNN political commentator Joe Lockhart. Joe, thanks so much for joining us. Hope you're having a good weekend. Historic unemployment, families going hungry. On top of that a pandemic that's killed tens of thousands of Americans. And yet, no action from Congress. How exactly do you think Joe Biden is going to change that when he takes office?

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think he hopes he can change that before he takes office. Congress will come back. They have work to do, and I think the president-elect has made clear that the country can't wait until January 20th. You heard all of those stories that she just played, and that is playing out all across country.

Should Congress not be able to do that -- the Republicans in the Senate have been holding this up -- he will have to hit the ground running, and hit the ground running with a stimulus bill, and also with a recognition that the COVID plan, relief plan, is integral with the economic recovery plan, because we're just not going to recover if we don't do the things that President Trump has failed to do.

SANCHEZ: A lot of this is going to come down to the balance of power in the Senate, right? Two runoff races in Georgia on January 5th. Biden has suggested a slew of legislation that we can call aspirational, on immigration, on taxes. How close is he going to get to achieving those goals if the Republicans win and are able to maintain control of the Senate?

[14:35:00] LOCKHART: Well, it becomes much more difficult, because obviously if the Republicans are in control, the Majority Leader Mitch McConnell can keep things from coming to the floor, which he's been doing for years now. The House, the Heroes plan to spend up to $3 trillion on economic recovery and on stimulus and direct benefits has been sitting on his desk since May.

So it's important that you mention Georgia, because that may be the leverage point here. You've got Senators Perdue and Loeffler who are in real races down there, and I think the majority leader may want to give them something that they can go to Georgians and say, look, we've got this for you, we've got this relief.

So I think there's one more turn in this before Biden becomes president, and I think hopefully with leadership from the president- elect, leadership that hasn't been there, because President Trump has been on the sidelines, they may be able to move it. If not, I think even with the Republicans in charge in the Senate, they will move some sort of relief package in late January or early February, if not before.

LOCKHART: Now this week, Biden appeared to pour cold water on the idea of nominating Senators Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders to his cabinet. There was a lot of speculation about this, but he said he would prefer that they stay in the Senate. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We already have significant representation among progressives in our administration, but there's nothing really off the table. One thing is really critical -- taking someone out of the Senate, taking someone out of the House, particularly a person of consequence, is really a difficult decision that would have to be made. I have a very ambitious, very progressive agenda, and it's going to take really strong leaders in the House and Senate to get it done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Joe, it's been overshadowed by so much of the drama with President Trump not willing to concede, but there's a major story here as Joe Biden fills his cabinet about the tug of war within the Democratic Party. Do you think Biden may be alienating some Democrats who want to see more progressives in those cabinet positions?

LOCKHART: Listen, I think we're in a period here where, you're right, it is a tug of war. It doesn't mean that it's necessarily a bad thing. People on the ultraprogressive side of the party want to have as much influence as they can because they have an agenda that's slightly different than people who are more in the center. There's way more that Democrats agree on than Democrats disagree on.

But I think this is what happens at every transition when power is up for grabs. On the Senate seats, there's just no chance that the former vice president I think is going to nominate Elizabeth Warren because that would give a Senate seat to the Republicans, because the governor of Massachusetts is Governor Charlie Baker, a Republican, and he would appoint a Republican. And with the margins this tight, it's just not going to happen.

I think Bernie Sanders is a different issue. I think they're probably considering this as far as his interest in being labor secretary. But again, I think the idea that there's some civil war in the Democratic Party is not true. This is all reasonably healthy. We'll see how it plays out, but I think at the end of the day, Biden is trying to satisfy a big tent party, and there will be people on both sides who think they didn't get everything they wanted.

SANCHEZ: We'll certainly have to wait and see how it plays out. Joe Lockhart, thank you so much, sir.

Coming up, a mysterious attack, a car bomb, gunfire, and a top nuclear scientist dead overseas. The apparent assassination that has Iran threatening revenge.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:3:11]

SANCHEZ: New this hour, Iran's president Hassan Rouhani accusing Israel of killing Iran's top nuclear scientist. The news coming as protesters in Tehran this weekend are burning American and Israeli flags along with images of President Trump and President-elect Joe Biden. The Iranian scientist was considered one of the masterminds of the country's controversial nuclear program.

Joining me now, CNN senior national security correspondent Alex Marquardt. Alex, there are enormous foreign policy implications of Iran's president accusing Israel of this bold action and promising some form of vengeance.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And potentially very dangerous, Boris. In this moment, it is less about how Iran responds rhetorically -- they're known for their fiery statements -- but really, what they do, what kind of response there is. Do they lash out against Israeli and American targets in the region?

Let's put this into some sort of context. This was a major figure in Iran. This was the country's senior most nuclear scientist, someone who helped build Iran's nuclear program. And this attack showed that whoever carried it out, possibly Israel, was able to reach into Iran in broad daylight and kill one of the senior most figures in Iran. That is very embarrassing for Iran.

Now, you add that to the fact that around 11 months ago, the beginning of January, their top military commander, Qasem Soleimani, was also killed, that time by a U.S. airstrike. So Iran feels a huge amount of pressure to respond. So how do they do that now? Do they do it in a significant way against American and Israeli targets in the region, in a way that would then lead to fighting or to war that would demand a response from Israel or the U.S.?

[14:45:05] They could do that, or they could wait until the Biden administration comes in. They know that when Biden comes in, he is looking to reengage with them. He is looking to get back into the Iranian nuclear deal. He is probably going to ease some of the sanctions on them, ease that maximum pressure campaign that the Trump administration has been exerting on Iran.

And so they may hold their fire, if you will, and they may not respond in a particularly violent way, hoping that things could soon get better. That is certainly the hope of the Biden administration that they don't inherit a war when they come in in January. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Yes, that's the difficult part about this, right, the polarity in the approaches of these two administrations, and the reporting indicates that just a few weeks President Trump was considering some kind of action in Iran, but he was ultimately talked out of it. We'll wait and see what happens there.

Alex Marquardt, thank you so much.

Coming up, how the president's pardon of Michael Flynn could signal a wave of pardons to come. "Cross Examine" with Elie Honig is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:50:55]

SANCHEZ: It's 53 days until Inauguration Day, and President Trump's legal losses keep piling up as he pushes conspiracies and lies about the election. In Pennsylvania court Friday, three panel judge -- a panel of three judges, I should say -- handing the Trump campaign yet another blow, rejecting the appeal of a lawsuit that was dropped last week that sought to invalidate millions of votes.

In a scathing decision, one of those judges, appointed by President Trump himself, emphasizing the lawsuit has no merit and writing, quote, "Charges of unfairness are serious, but calling an election unfair does not make it so. Charges require specific allegations and then proof. We have neither here."

Time now for "Cross Examine" with CNN legal analyst Elie Honig. He's also a former federal and state prosecutor. Elie, thanks so much for joining us today. Trump's legal challenges are fizzling. His legal team is flailing, but one of our viewers wants to know, "Can the president's lawyers still go to the courts to stop or delay certification of the election results?" I hear you laughing.

(LAUGHTER)

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Boris, I'm laughing because they keep trying, and the results this week somehow went from horrible to somehow even worse. The big case that was the case you talked about, Rudy Giuliani's effort to overturn Pennsylvania. Last week, a federal district court judge firmly rejected the case.

He said there's zero evidence. He called the case a, quote, Frankenstein's monster haphazardly stitched together. That's got to sting. And then yesterday, as you said, a three-judge panel of the Court of the Appeals decisively and harshly rejected the case as well.

And the thing is, President Trump's lawyers tried to attack the first judge and said, well, he is an Obama nominee. Guess what, the three judges yesterday who unanimously rejected it were appointed by President George W. Bush, George W. Bush, and Donald J. Trump.

The president's attorneys have vowed we're taking this case to the U.S. Supreme Court. I'll tell you right now, there is no way the U.S. Supreme Court is taking this case, and if they do, they will reject this. This is yet another in a long string of humiliating but self- imposed and self-inflicted setbacks by Trump's legal team.

SANCHEZ: One of the things I found really curious is that after each of these losses, the Trump legal team comes back, well, it's actually a win because it helps us get to the Supreme Court faster, which doesn't make any sense, but OK.

HONIG: We meant to do that.

SANCHEZ: Right. On Wednesday, President Trump announced a full pardon for his former national security adviser Michael Flynn, who pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI as part of the Russia probe. Another viewer wants to know, "How does the president's pardon of Flynn stack up with other pardons through history? Haven't there been other controversial pardons?"

HONIG: Yes, there have been other dubious pardons throughout our history, but this one, I believe, stands out because it is uniquely corrupt in the way that it abuses power. Now, some of the most infamous pardons in our history have gone to personal friends and political allies of various presidents of both parties, and the Michael Flynn pardon certainly falls into that category.

But even beyond that, what really sets this apart is that Michael Flynn was a potential witness to wrongdoing by the president himself. Remember, Michael Flynn was cooperating with Robert Mueller's investigation, and remember how hard the president worked to kill this case? He tried to get the FBI to drop it.

He publicly floated the possibility of a pardon for Michael Flynn over a year ago. And eventually Robert Mueller found this was potential obstruction of justice by the president. So now it's full circle. Michael Flynn has stopped cooperating. Now he has his pardon. So Boris, even among the worst, most corrupt pardons in our history, I think this one will stand out for its flagrant cronyism and corruption.

SANCHEZ: We want to turn to coronavirus now. There's a viewer that wants to know about the Supreme Court ruling. They write, quote, "Now that the Supreme Court has struck down New York's COVID-based restrictions on religious institutions, will we soon see courts doing the same in other states across the country?"

HONIG: So Boris, key thing to note. The court's decision was limited only to New York state's COVID rules.

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Of course, every state has different rules. That could lead to different outcomes. So this does not guarantee any future outcomes in the Supreme Court, but it certainly opens the door for future challenges coming from other states on the same issue.

SANCHEZ: All right, we've got to stop right there. Elie Honig, thanks so much, appreciate the legal expertise on "Cross Examine." Thanks.

HONIG: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Coming up, CNN goes one-on-one with actor and activist Sean Penn, talking about his work on COVID relief efforts as cases continue to surge.

And be sure to catch an all new season of "This is Life with Lisa Ling," it airs tomorrow night at 9:00 and 10:00. You get two episodes tomorrow night right here on CNN.

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