Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Who Will Get Vaccine First?; Trump Pressuring FDA to Approve Vaccine Faster?; Attorney General Bill Barr Finds No Evidence of Widespread Voter Fraud. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 01, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: No evidence of widespread voter fraud, the word just in from Trump's own Department of Justice.

Attorney General Bill Barr just telling the Associated Press that the DOJ found no proof of fraud that would change the outcome of the 2020 presidential election.

And this flies completely in the face of the marathon of baseless claims that the president continues to allege even today. And coming from Barr himself, who has largely been seen as a Trump loyalist, the conclusion means a lot.

Let's begin at the White House with our White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins, and also our CNN political correspondent, Sara Murray.

But, Kaitlan, I want to begin with you. It's my understanding Bill Barr has just been seen at the White House? What do you know?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brooke, a lot has happened in the last few moments, because Bill Barr gave this interview with the Associated Press, where he is completely knocking down the president's claims that there is widespread fraud that could change the outcome of the election.

And he's even getting specific, saying they actually looked into those claims by people like the former Trump attorney Sidney Powell about voting machines changing votes. And Bill Barr says the DOJ and the Department of Homeland Security has seen no evidence of that.

So, of course, then, a few moments, a few moments later, Bill Barr, someone who has not been at the White House very much lately and has actually been keeping a low profile, then just arrived at the White House. And he went into the Executive Office Building next door to the West Wing. That's where the vice president's office is.

And then, a few moments later, he came out, stood by his car, and then, Brooke, he went into the West Wing. But what I want to tell you while we're still figuring out what

exactly is going on, because there was no meeting scheduled between Donald Trump and his attorney general today, we just got a statement that is incredibly remarkable from the president's legal team, Rudy Giuliani and Jenna Ellis, the two figures you have seen out there backing his baseless claims of widespread fraud, going after the attorney general of the United States, saying: "With all due respect to the attorney general, there hasn't been any semblance of a Department of Justice investigation."

It's an incredibly lengthy statement, Brooke, but at the end, they say: "Again, with the greatest respect to the attorney general, his opinion appears to be without any knowledge or investigation of the substantial irregularities and evidence of systemic fraud."

Of course, if you have to say, with all due respect, you likely do not mean with all due respect.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

COLLINS: It is remarkable to see the president's legal team going after the attorney general for knocking down his baseless claims about election fraud.

BALDWIN: Also, when you have to say that -- without any knowledge. This is the attorney general of the United States, right? All of this eventually comes through him at the DOJ.

I'm going to keep you there, Kaitlan.

Sara, I want to pivot to you. Obviously, we're still trying to figure out what's up today and the backstory of how this came to be. What do you know about Barr's decision to come out with this?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, Brooke, this just so encapsulates, right, the entire Trump administration to see this kind of chaos playing out.

But, look, I think that this is what the DOJ had to do, right? There were all these plans about voter fraud going around. It's their job to actually investigate them. And I think that it's telling how strong Bill Barr did come out in this AP interview.

He said, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election. He gets into these unfounded claims that we have seen from a number of Republicans that somehow there was a machine that was switching votes into president-elect Joe Biden's column.

Barr says in this interview with the Associated Press: "There's been one assertion, that would be systemic fraud. And that would be the claim that machines were programmed, essentially, to skew the election results."

And this is the part that the White House -- or that the campaign is taking issue with. He says; "The DHS and the DOJ have looked into that. So far, we haven't seen anything to substantiate that."

So, what Bill Barr is telling the AP is that, you know, look, we did investigate these claims that are going around by Republicans, and we didn't turn anything up.

And, Brooke, I don't think we should be surprised that the president and his campaign are unhappy to see this. This is a president who, from the moment he took office, wanted an attorney general who would sort of be more like his own personal lawyer, his own personal protector than the attorney general of the United States of America.

BALDWIN: And let's all remember -- I know it feels like eons ago -- what happened to Jeff Sessions, and how Bill Barr became Bill Barr, which I will get to in just a second, just to refresh everyone's memories for now.

Kaitlan and Sara, thank you both so much.

Let's get some much needed perspective on this huge, huge piece of news this afternoon.

CNN legal analyst Elie Honig is with me. He is a former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York.

And, Elie, we will get to the fact that this is coming, from of all people, Bill Barr.

But just on the substance of this from the nation's top cop, from the A.G. and DOJ, no fraud, is this just finally case closed, like, Biden won, it's over?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Brooke, if you're Donald Trump and Bill Barr, of all people, is telling you it's over, it's over.

This is and should be a death blow for all of the conspiracy theories, because let's remember who Bill Barr is. He's shown us this over the last two years, when he has continually bent the law, bent the truth, bent the facts to fit Donald Trump's narrative.

[15:05:05]

But here's the thing. You can't just make stuff up. And Bill Barr told the thousands of women and men who work at DOJ a few weeks ago, he said, we're changing the rules now. You can investigate potential voter fraud. And we will announce it if you find anything.

Well, guess what? Here we are a couple weeks later. And the good nonpartisan people who work every day for DOJ have come back to the attorney general and told him, we got nothing. And the attorney general said the same thing today.

So, look, you can bend the truth all you want. You can't just make stuff up.

BALDWIN: Correct. We just heard Kaitlan reporting that there was no meeting scheduled on the books between Bill Barr and the president of the United States, that he stood by the car at the West Wing after heading over to EEOB.

We know the story of what happens to A.G.s, right? We remember what happened to Jeff Sessions. When you say or do something that this president doesn't like, you're often out.

So, I know that there is only a few weeks left of this current administration, but you do you think Bill Barr makes it to the finish line?

HONIG: We will see. I mean, if you would ask me a week ago, I would have said, of course.

But now he has come out in a very clear way and said, this whole narrative, the whole thing that the president is banking on, he said, it's nonsense.

So, look, we can look to Jeff Sessions. We know the president got rid of just Jeff Sessions, because Jeff Sessions, in his view, didn't do enough to protect his back. But let's look just to last week, Chris Krebs, right? Chris Krebs came out publicly and said this whole idea that this election was compromised is nonsense. And Chris Krebs was promptly fired.

So look, we now have DOJ, the FBI, and the Department of Homeland Security in one corner, and then we have the statement that you refer to from Rudy Giuliani and Jenna Ellis in the other corner.

BALDWIN: Let's pause on that.

HONIG: Yes.

BALDWIN: Let me come back to that, because I now have that printed in front of me.

And, again, the caveat at the top of this whole thing from the Trump legal team that you're alluding to, "With all due respect to the attorney general," OK?

HONIG: All right.

BALDWIN: "There wasn't -- there hasn't been any semblance of a Department of Justice investigation. We have gathered evidence of illegal voting in at least six states which they have not examined. We have many witnesses," yadda, yadda, yadda.

HONIG: Yes. Brooke--

BALDWIN: You have read this.

HONIG: So -- yes.

So, OK, here's how we're going to break this down. On the one hand, you have Rudy Giuliani, Jenna Ellis, and their elite strike team or whatever they call themselves, which has continually failed to put any evidence in front of courts. On the other hand, this isn't just William Barr. William Barr speaks

for over 100,000 people who work for DOJ, thousands of federal prosecutors, FBI agents. He's not just coming up with this on his own. He is -- think of him as the end of a funnel. And he has all of the research, all of the investigation that these thousands of people have done over the last couple weeks, and they have come up with nothing.

I mean, where are you going to bank on there? I know where I'm going. I'm going with the with the DOJ, for sure, over Rudy any day of the week.

BALDWIN: Speaking of Rudy Giuliani, because, as of 10 minutes ago, I wanted to ask you about this. So let me let me pivot to the other piece of news of the day that "The New York Times" is reporting out, that Giuliani had discussed the possibility of this preemptive pardon for himself as recently as last week.

It is unclear what criminal conduct Giuliani is concerned about. And Giuliani is denying discussing this with President Trump or the White House.

But, Elie, a couple questions on this. Number one, just what is a preemptive pardon?

HONIG: So, a preemptive pardon, essentially, is a rarity in our history. We have seen a few of them. Usually, when somebody gets pardoned, it's for a very specific crime.

To take last week, for example, Michael Flynn, he was charged and convicted in federal court. Then he was pardoned. Same thing with Roger Stone. It was a commutation, but he was convicted of a crime. And then there was a commutation.

Very rarely we have seen what you would call a preemptive pardon, meaning you have not been charged with anything. However, I pardon you for anything you might have done anyway.

The most famous or infamous example of this was Gerald Ford pardoning Richard Nixon in 1974. We have seen other examples. Jimmy Carter, for example, gave a preemptive pardon to people who had dodged the draft in the Vietnam War. It is very rare in our history. And, candidly, it's not even entirely clear that it's a lawful way to give a pardon.

BALDWIN: That's what I was wondering, if it's even legal.

HONIG: Yes.

BALDWIN: So, that's still answer TBD?

HONIG: Yes. No one's ever tested that.

But, look, the way we would find out potentially is if this pardon happens, and then DOJ decides, we don't believe it's legal and we believe we have enough basis to charge Rudy Giuliani. Then we would go to the courts for an answer. So, that's not happened in our history. Put this under yet another

thing that who would have ever believed this could happen? But perhaps it will.

BALDWIN: Elie Honig, thank you very much for all of that.

HONIG: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Also breaking this afternoon, a CDC advisory panel is holding a meeting right now to decide who should receive the coronavirus vaccine first. They will hold a vote on the recommendation. And so we have those details ahead of time.

Also, the White House today is summoning the head of the FDA to the West Wing, as President Trump is demanding answers as to why a vaccine has yet to be authorized -- what the FDA is saying about that.

[15:10:10]

And president-elect Joe Biden is introducing his economic team today. How do they plan to help millions of Americans suffering from this pandemic?

You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: We're back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being here.

There is an emergency meeting that is happening right this moment, the CDC vaccine advisory panel, who will soon vote on who should be the very first people to get a COVID vaccine.

But the president wants to know, what's taking so long? The head of the FDA was summoned to the White House this morning to explain the vaccine timeline.

[15:15:03]

Sources tell CNN the president is privately demanding to know why Pfizer's coronavirus vaccine has yet to be authorized for emergency use.

FDA Chief Stephen Hahn issued a statement last night defending the FDA's timeline, saying this -- quote -- "Career scientists have to make the decision. And they will take the time that's needed to make the right call."

Perspective. This is all happening as infection rates and hospitalizations are soaring across the United States. There were more than 96,000 COVID patients hospitalized just yesterday, again, another record-shattering number.

CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is with me now.

And, Elizabeth, first, just what's your takeaway from the White House summoning Stephen Hahn today, the head of the FDA?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It sounds like Trump is interfering with science.

These are FDA scientists, Brooke. They are some of the best minds in the world. They're reviewing vaccines to make sure that they work and that they're safe. We do not want them to be in a rush.

We are going to be expected, all of us, to roll up our sleeves and get this vaccine. We want to make sure that these scientists have the time they need to review Pfizer and Moderna's vaccine data.

President Trump, instead of summoning people to the White House on this, he should be quiet and let them do their jobs, which is protecting all of us.

BALDWIN: Right now, as I also mentioned a moment ago, CDC advisers are sitting in that room, that emergency meeting.

What does this mean for the vaccine timeline? And, Elizabeth, who will get it first?

COHEN: Right.

So, this CDC advisory committee is doing something different than what the FDA does. The FDA looks to make sure that the vaccine is safe and effective. What the CDC is expected to do, or this committee, this advisory committee of independent experts, they're supposed to say, you know what, there's -- we know there's not enough to go around. Here's who should get it first.

And here is what we expect them to say. We expect that, in the next hour or two, they're going to take a vote, and they're going to say that the first two groups who should be getting this vaccine are health care workers and residents of nursing homes and other kinds of long-term care facilities, that those are the first two groups.

And then we expect, after that, the next groups that will follow will be elderly people who are not in nursing homes, people with underlying medical conditions, and essential workers, such as police officers, firefighters, folks who work in meatpacking plants, et cetera.

That's what we're expecting. And that's going to take months. If you're not in one of these groups, there's a good chance that you may not be able to get the vaccine until, say, the end of April, at the earliest -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK.

How will doctors convince an already skeptical American public to get the vaccine?

COHEN: Well, this sort of relates to what we were talking about at the beginning, which is, it would be a whole lot easier to convince a skeptical population to get a vaccine if the president would stop trying to pressure scientists to speed things up, right? He's acting against his own interests and against all of our interests. We do not want the population to have this feeling that things are being sped up.

So, what doctors are going to have to do is, they're going to have to say to people, look, here's the data, here's what it says, here's what happened to the people in the clinical trials, which is basically, for these two vaccines, that it worked exceptionally well, 95 percent, approximately, efficacy, and no one became seriously ill.

I think, in time, as people start to get vaccinated and as people start to see, oh, a friend of mine, he got vaccinated and he was fine, my sister got a vaccine, she was fine, that people will start to have more trust in this as time goes on.

BALDWIN: Elizabeth Cohen, thank you very much.

More hospitals across the country are reporting that they are running out of ICU beds, as COVID cases continue to skyrocket. We will discuss that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:23:38]

BALDWIN: The FDA and CDC are working to authorize COVID-19 vaccines and plans for distribution. At the same time, state and local governments are finalizing their distribution plans while they're still treating new cases.

CNN's Nick Watt has more on where the vaccine stands in the face of surging cases and hospitalizations.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Right now, the CDC advisory panel is meeting to take a vote. Who should get the coronavirus vaccine first?

DR. MONCEF SLAOUI, CHIEF ADVISER, OPERATION WARP SPEED: We should start with those who are most exposed and most impacted. And we should end with the least impacted populations, which means really pediatric populations, young, very young, healthy adults.

WATT: Rollout preps well under way. Here's a timeline of what to expect.

December 10, an outside advisory FDA panel meets to discuss Pfizer's application for emergency use authorization. December 17, same process for Moderna's vaccine candidate.

ALEX AZAR, U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: We could be seeing both of these vaccines out and getting into people's arms before Christmas.

WATT: By June 2021, every American that wants the vaccine will have had the vaccine. So says the federal government.

DR. THOMAS FRIEDEN, FORMER DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: But I would also expect there to be bumps in the road in the vaccination program.

[15:25:00]

WATT: Bottom line?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: If you want to be part of the solution, get vaccinated.

WATT: Right now, too many people are part of the problem, spreading this virus like never before.

FAUCI: All things considered, we're not in a good place.

WATT: In California, concern ICU beds could all be filled by Christmas. They're considering another stay-home order for much of the state.

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): We are assessing this in real time over the next day or two.

WATT: Conversely, Florida just hit one million confirmed cases.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): I'm opposed to mandates, period, I don't think they work.

WATT: This country could be facing a surge on a surge on a surge.

Surge one, in November, all but three states saw average case counts rise, nationwide, record numbers now in the hospital, creeping towards 100,000.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One second, you think it's gone. Then it's right back at you.

WATT: Surge two, Thanksgiving. Millions traveled, and this virus spreads over a warm crowded table.

FAUCI: You see the difference two or three weeks from now, which would put it right at the time that people would be traveling for Christmas.

WATT: Search surge could be Christmas.

MARK AHRENS, COVID-19 PATIENT: I would tell them to stay home, because they might go see somebody this year, and they won't be here next.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATT: Now, back to those vaccines.

Now, the short and midterm side effects of both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine are known. And for most people, they won't even know that they have had it. In maybe 10 or 15 percent of people, you might get a little bit of pain around the spot where you receive the injection, some chills, some aches that are gone in a day or two.

And, Brooke, as you and Elizabeth were talking about just before the break, this country, this world needs enough people to take the vaccine for it to really do its job and stop this virus spreading wild -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: It will be interesting to see if restaurants, airlines, businesses start requiring vaccinations to work or to travel. To me, that will be the next wave for all of us.

Nick Watt, I appreciate you.

To Nick's point in the beginning of the piece, though, about all those ICU beds and other hospitals, I want to start there with Dr. Celine Gounder. She is an infectious disease specialist and an epidemiologist. And she is a member of the Biden/Harris transition COVID advisory board.

So, Dr. Gounder, welcome. We will get to vaccines in a second here.

But we are seeing state after state releasing their numbers that their hospitals and their ICUs are essentially reaching capacity, and it is just the 1st of December. How do these hospitals even determine who to treat when they run out of beds?

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, BIDEN CORONAVIRUS ADVISORY BOARD MEMBER: Well, we are going to be in a really tough situation.

Part of what we try to do is transfer patients to other hospitals when one hospital is full. But when you're dealing with hospitals across the country that are full, that becomes much more difficult to do.

So, then you stand up field hospitals. We tap into military resources, but there are still limits to how quickly you can do those things and also limits with respect to numbers of health care workers to staff those beds.

So, there does come a point where the system is just saturated. And, unfortunately, that is when rates of death from coronavirus do shoot up, when we simply don't have the manpower.

BALDWIN: Already a huge concern.

Also, let me pivot to the vaccine. We know that CDC advisers meeting is happening right now. They will be sitting around recommending who should get the vaccines first. There is the argument that, in addition to the nonessential workers -- or -- excuse me -- in addition to the essential workers, you have the nonessential workers, college students, people eating in restaurants, inmates, potential spreaders, should be next in line to get the shots.

Do you agree?

GOUNDER: Well, we don't know for sure yet that the vaccine prevents spread.

The way it's really been studied is to look at whether it prevents severe disease or disease in general. And so those are slightly different endpoints.

And so I think, most likely, ACIP, the branch or committee at CDC that is evaluating what recommendations to make about who should be getting vaccinated first, I think, will prioritize populations who are at highest risk. So that might include health care workers because of their exposure on the job, or people in nursing homes, because we know there's very high risk in those settings.

BALDWIN: Understand.

And then, just quickly we know that this vaccine comes in two doses. How will you, on the Biden advisory board, just get the message out for people, you can't just get one, you have to get both?

GOUNDER: Well, I think that's going to be part of the logistical challenge here, is making sure that people are brought back for that second dose.

And so that's a big amount of tracking that you have to do to figure out who got it, when they're due, make sure they came back in, and so on. So, that's certainly part of the logistical challenge here.

BALDWIN: Dr. Celine Gounder, thank you very much. Great to have you on, as always.