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UK Approves Pfizer Vaccine, Will Begin Rolling Out Doses Next week; U.S. Reports Nearly 2,600 Deaths, Second Deadliest Day in a Pandemic; CDC Panel to Decide on Who Should Get Vaccine First; Trump has Discussed Pardoning Giuliani, 3 of His Children and Jared Kushner; DOJ Investigates Potential Bribery Scheme for Trump Pardon; U.S. States Faces Friday Deadline to Submit COVID-19 Vaccine Plans. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 02, 2020 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:18]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Very good Wednesday morning to you, I'm Jim Sciutto. Poppy has the week off.

Well, some good news this morning. A major moment in this pandemic and the race to approve a vaccine. The U.K. is now the first country in the world to green light a vaccine. It is Pfizer's vaccine. The rollout there expected to begin next week.

Here in the U.S. the FDA is set to meet next Thursday to discuss its own approval for this country. This as the CDC votes to vaccinate health care workers and those in nursing homes first once a vaccine is cleared.

The White House Coronavirus Task Force is telling states we are in a very dangerous place in this country now. The U.S. reporting its second highest day of deaths on Tuesday, hospitalizations signal that that number could get a lot worse.

And in the middle of this health crisis a White House in chaos as the president's own attorney general breaks with him on the president's false claims of election fraud. A source tells CNN the president is discussing preemptively pardoning members of his own family and his inner circle as well. Preemptive pardons.

Our correspondents are standing by with the latest. Let's begin, though, with CNN's Max Foster in London with breaking details on approval of this vaccine.

Max, good morning. Welcome news in the U.K. That's in the midst of its own spike in this outbreak.

MAX FOSTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. Huge excitement here. Light at the end of the tunnel if you like, but also tempered by the prime minister behind me, encouraging people to stay safe because it's not until well into next year, possibly the spring, the whole nation will be vaccinated.

But news from the regulator, the U.K. version of the FDA, that this drug is 95 percent effectively but also safe, has been hugely welcome here. And it means that the government can now start the rollout. As you say vaccinations will begin next week if everything goes as planned.

They've got to get this Pfizer vaccine over from the factory in Belgium over to the U.K. in refrigerated containers. The logistics need to work but if that happens then we could be into a process next week where the most vulnerable are being vaccinated.

This is the process, vaccines will be offered seven days a week, including holidays. A minimum of 975 vaccines will be delivered per week from each location and this assumption will be that everyone will need two doses and the priority will be given to those over 80, residents and staff at nursing homes and health care workers as well. Then it will be broadened out.

The government says they're expecting millions of doses from Pfizer by the end of the year. This is what the CEO of BioNTech had to say. They are producing this vaccine with Pfizer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UGUR SAHIN, CEO, BIONTECH: We will deliver up to 15 million doses to the different regions in 2020. So that means a significant proportion of those doses would also go to the United States. So technically we are prepared to start the rollout, it depends of course on the regulatory approval.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: So there you go. The FDA needs to approve it in the same way as the U.K. has. That was an exclusive interview for CNN. But what's worth noting here is that the British regulator is highly respected, is very highly independent, is respected around the world. So certainly the FDA will be looking at this decision today and seeing it as positive news, I think, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And listen, they're sticking with the science, right? Trumping politics. Something good to see.

Max Foster, thanks very much.

Let's go to CNN's Brynn Gingras following the latest on the pandemic here in this country.

Brynn, listen, you know, we have this good news about the vaccine but what's happening today is just an alarming growth in the outbreak in this country.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's a reminder, Jim, that you can't let your guard down. Right? Experts had said that it was going to get worse in the fall and in the winter, and if you didn't believe it, well, the numbers are proving it right now. As you mentioned, Tuesday recorded nearly 2600 deaths in one day from the coronavirus, that is the second highest daily death toll since this pandemic began, the first one was a date back in April when there was just six more deaths.

So that's where we are at right now. And this as hospitalizations are just surging across this country, nearly 100,000 new hospitalizations. That's double what we saw in November, triple what we saw in October.

Now, of course, Jim, as you mentioned when there are hospitalizations going up that is a signal that we will likely see more deaths as well.

[09:05:03]

So here is the statistics for you there. Models are showing we could see double the amount of deaths in December that we saw in November to break that down even more in November, Jim, we saw 51 people die every single hour in the month of November. And so as you said the White Coronavirus Task Force is warning states to continue taking precautions, be stricter with those precautions, and states are recording at this moment, Jim, their worst day ever scenarios when it comes to all different metrics in regards to the coronavirus.

And, Jim, of course we know the fallout is still coming from all that travel we saw from all those gatherings over the Thanksgiving holiday.

SCIUTTO: Yes. That's been one consistent thing, holiday weekends, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, have led to spikes.

Brynn Gingras, thanks very much.

Well, CDC panel has voted on recommendations for distributing a vaccine. Who comes first, as many expected an agency panel suggested health care workers and those living in nursing homes should be first in line. That includes some 24 million people around the country.

I'm joined now by Dr. Paul Offit, he's director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. We should note he also serves as one of the voting members of the FDA Independent Advisory Committee. They're going to meet eight days from now.

Dr. Paul Offit, good to have you on this morning.

DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR, VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: Good morning.

SCIUTTO: So I don't want to get ahead of any process that you are in the midst of now. We want to follow the science here and the process, but given the U.K.'s approval here, is it promising that the U.S. will do similar when you meet next week?

OFFIT: It's very promising. I mean, the U.K. regulators are essentially a mirror of us, which is to say academicians and researchers to sit around and carefully pore through the data, the reams of data that are sort of below the headlines to make sure that this vaccine is what it appears to be, safe and effective. And so if the U.K. regulators and advisers felt that way, it's a good sign, we also will be getting a huge packet of information that we'll review before the meeting on December 10th, but it all looks good.

SCIUTTO: OK. So we then get to the point of who gets this first and that's been decided health care workers, makes sense, people in nursing homes, makes sense. But when I look at these figures here, I worry here about how you then delineate among these groups. I mean, there are 21 million health care workers in this country. Of course some are in far riskier roles than others. I mean, if I'm talking about someone in an ER or a unit -- an ICU just dealing with some of the worst infected with this, is there going to be differentiation within those groups?

OFFIT: Yes, at our hospital, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, we are doing exactly what you just said. Those who are most likely to come in contact with patients directly where you're more likely to be exposed to their secretions are going to be the ones that are in line first. So, for example, our emergency department staff, surgeons who work, for example, you know, that may be dealing with secretions, et cetera.

So, yes, those are the first groups. And what's hardest about this is that by the end of this year we'll have about 40 million doses of a two-dose vaccine. That's 20 million people. That's really not even enough to just do the first tier group which is roughly 24 million people. Then you get to other essential workers, you know, like those in education, transportation, utilities, law enforcement. That's another 87 million people before you even get to the third tier, which is people greater than 65, people who have high risk medical conditions.

I mean, what's hardest about this for me, Jim, is that you have -- we're all sort of swimming in shark-infested waters. There's a limited number of life boats and the fact that you can only let so many people into those life boats is hard. I mean, will there be people who over the next few months will suffer and possibly die from this virus because we weren't able to get them the vaccine now? The answer to that question is yes. I think that's what's so hard about all this.

SCIUTTO: So are these manufacturers ready to ramp up, though, once approval comes through, to go from the 40 million doses you need early on to the hundreds of millions of doses, right, in a two-dose vaccine to vaccinate the broader population here?

OFFIT: Yes, that's actually one of the advantages of this vaccine. The question is how much you can make. I mean, the thinking is you can make at least -- enough vaccine to vaccinate, say, two million to five million people per week. I mean, this is a messenger RNA vaccine which means it's given in microgram doses so 30 micrograms per dose is the Pfizer vaccine. A microgram is a millionth of a gram. You can make kilograms, which is to say thousands of grams of this particular product. So really it's enough I think within a year or two where you could vaccinate the world.

SCIUTTO: OK. An embarrassment of riches you might say at this point, in that you have two, the Moderna and the Pfizer vaccine that look to be pretty much set to get approval. You've got AstraZeneca, which has shown some good data. I know there are still questions there, but is there one of these vaccines that is more promising than the other or should folks when they get the opportunity to do this say, hey, listen, whatever vaccine is available, take it?

[09:10:03]

OFFIT: Well, again, the CDC and the FDA will drill down on these data. I mean, if you look at sort of the press releases, the sort of topline data, it looks like the Pfizer Moderna vaccines are indistinguishable with the exception of obviously the storage and handling requirements of the Pfizer vaccine.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

OFFIT: But in terms of safety and efficacy they look to be equivalent but again I think as we get more data we'll know exactly whether that's true. And then the other vaccines you mentioned like Johnson & Johnson's vaccine or AstraZeneca's vaccine we're going to need to see the data first before we make any sort of comparison.

SCIUTTO: OK. Just before we go quickly, in a word how amazing is it, right, that these vaccines came so quickly?

OFFIT: It's remarkable. I think if you asked 1,000 scientists in the United States in January when we had this virus in hand whether 11 months later we would have two large clinical trials of an MRNA vaccine showing 90 percent to 95 percent efficacy, I think no one would have thought that was possible.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Listen, let's take the good news when we can get it, especially if the year is 2020.

Dr. Paul Offit, thanks very much.

OFFIT: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still to come this hour President Trump has been privately discussing potential preemptive pardons for his children, his son-in- law Jared Kushner, even Rudy Giuliani. Just amazing. Can he do it?

And as vaccine approval here in the U.S. draws near, states have until Friday to determine their plans for getting it out. How will the rollout work? We're going to talk about it ahead.

And President Trump hinted at, quote, "another four years" at a White House Christmas reception. Some of his die hard supporters are still in denial, holding out hope that that could begin in January. It won't.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm hoping that something will turn the tide and I'm just -- I'm a big supporter, and --

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And that Donald Trump can still be president?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I'm hoping that he can still be president. Yes, I absolutely am.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:15:00]

SCIUTTO: This morning, some stunning additions to President Trump's list of potential pardons. Sources now say that he has discussed pardoning his own children, his son-in-law and his lawyer Rudy Giuliani. John Harwood and Evan Perez join me now. John, first to you, I mean, it's already unusual for the president to have family members working for him so closely, but now possible pardons for them. What are we learning?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, it's also unusual, Jim, for a president and people -- so many people close to him to either have engaged in so much criminal conduct or have been investigated for potential criminal conduct. So, a whole lot of people around the president have been convicted or pled guilty or are facing felony charges. And so everyone is aware that there are seven weeks left in this presidency, and seven weeks left for President Trump to possess that ultimate pardon power to clear people.

Now, the question is how does he use it? He's already used it for Mike Flynn who had pled guilty to a felony for lying to the FBI related to his contacts with Russia. Paul Manafort is another possibility, Roger Stone whose sentence he's already commuted is a possibility, but you also have got his children, Donald Trump Jr. of course was involved in the exchanges -- information exchanges, meetings with Russians during the 2016 campaign, don't know exactly what Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner might have exposure for, but they've been -- this has been broached with the president.

Rudy Giuliani of course was -- has been involved in all sorts of shady activity involving trying to get information from Ukraine to incriminate or smear Joe Biden and Joe Biden's son. So all of this is out there for the president, and we just don't know how he's going to use that power, but there's every expectation --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

HARWOOD: That he'll use it for at least some people.

SCIUTTO: Evan, so in the midst of this, a remarkable investigation revealed that the Justice Department was looking into bribery in connection with presidential pardons? What do we know?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this was -- this was revealed in some documents that the chief judge here in Washington unsealed yesterday, Jim, and it describes this scheme whereby somebody was trying to orchestrate a deal to send bribes in order to try to get -- to secure a pardon. Now, this was in exchange for campaign finance donations.

We have heard from a justice official last night who said that nobody on the government side was a target or the focus of this investigation, that tells us that what the FBI, what the Justice Department, which is the public integrity section here in this building has been working on is on someone on the outside, someone who thought that they could use some sort of connection to the White House to either use the past or current donations that they had made in order to secure a presidential pardon.

And really what this goes to is, you know, the things that you guys were just talking about, this very unusual way in which President Trump has used his pardon power, not going through the officials in this building --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

PEREZ: But simply talking to people who he knows, friends, connections.

SCIUTTO: Family members. So, Evan --

PEREZ: Family members.

SCIUTTO: Safe to describe Attorney General Barr as an ally of this president since he took over the role. So a remarkable break from the attorney general on the president's continuing unfounded claims of election fraud. What did he say?

PEREZ: Right. Exactly. Look, you know, it's like -- it's just like being surprised at the attorney general walking outside and saying, guys, you know, the world is not flat, but that's what happened yesterday. The attorney general came out and said that so far the FBI, the Justice Department has not found anything to indicate evidence of widespread fraud that could have made a difference in the recent election.

[09:20:00]

And this is something that was obvious, but it was important for the attorney general to say it simply because before the election, Jim, he was one of the people who was out there flogging this idea that vote by mail was going to be unsecure, that there would be fraud.

And so, now, we have someone who says that the Justice Department, the Homeland Security Department have looked into these claims and have not found them to be credible. And now, we'll see whether or not the president continues to make these claims. We know that his campaign, his lawyers, have already responded to Bill Barr saying that Bill Barr doesn't know what he's talking about.

SCIUTTO: Yes, John, just quickly, is Barr's job in trouble now, given the way the president has reacted, others who don't echo his claims?

HARWOOD: You have to assume his job is in trouble, but what difference does it make? There's just a few weeks left in the administration. Bill Barr is going to be headed back to retirement soon enough. But it's striking that as Evan said, all Bill Barr said yesterday was that the world is not flat --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

HARWOOD: When a whole bunch of people including the president and his legal team continue to say the world is flat, so they said he didn't --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

HARWOOD: Know what he was talking about.

SCIUTTO: Yes, contradicting that is the new standard for political courage in Washington. Evan Perez, John Harwood, thanks very much. With me now is former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti to go through the significance of all this kind of stuff. Renato, good to have you back.

All right, presidents have issued pardons before, looking into this, I mean, even some preemptive pardons, and we look at Jimmy Carter for instance pardoning Vietnam draft dodgers, some of whom may not have been charged at that point. I just wonder, what would be different about the president preemptively pardoning particularly members of his own family.

RENATO MARIOTTI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I think the only difference would be first of all, obviously, an appearance difference, right, in terms of Jimmy Carter's pardons versus this one. But also I think this is more akin I would say to the pardon of -- by President Ford of former President Nixon who he was obviously associated with.

But I think the other issue here is, there could potentially be a challenge in court, I think that would be the only -- the only difference here. I think that really, this is obviously something that's going to raise a lot of eyebrows, but it's not -- it's not unprecedented other than by the appearance of it.

SCIUTTO: OK, would there be any state charges, right, because a presidential pardon does not cover state issues, and of course, that's an issue for the president himself because you have the Manhattan D.A. looking into his business practices. But do Giuliani, Ivanka Trump, Jared Kushner face any potential legal liability in state courts?

MARIOTTI: Well, we know that in New York, they are looking at the Trump Organization and obviously Trump's family members are high- ranking, you know, officials in that organization. In addition, some of those Trump family members have been interviewed or they sought an interview, for example, of Eric Trump. As for Giuliani, most likely not, he is under investigation by the Southern District of New York, that's a federal investigation, and that might explain why Giuliani is so eager for Trump to potentially consider these pardons.

SCIUTTO: OK, so the other potential target, might even say likely target of a presidential pardon is the president himself. Tell us what we know about whether the law respects a self pardon by a president. Would it stand in court?

MARIOTTI: We don't know is the short answer. I will say that there is a lot of legal scholars who suggest that it doesn't make sense that a court would not uphold a self-pardon because the pardon power assumes that there are two people involved, somebody granting the pardon, someone receiving it, and obviously, in this case, there would not be that second person. But we don't know for sure, it's never happened before, no president has ever tried it, and it would be much safer for Trump if he just resigned a day early and had Mike Pence pardon him instead.

SCIUTTO: Well, could still happen I suppose. Finally, what's the significance of the DOJ investigating bribery as relates to the pardon powers? As a prosecutor, you investigated a lot of things, did you see -- did you ever see a case like this?

MARIOTTI: Not quite like this. I certainly saw in Illinois a Senate seat being sold for something of value, campaign contributions. Here of course, it's a pardon, it's certainly a crime, it's bribery if you sell any official act for something of value. What's interesting here is that the person involved was an attorney-slash-advocate who was -- so, you know, there is a lot of figures who are attorneys who are tangentially involved in the Trump orbit, it very well may be one of those people.

SCIUTTO: Renato, thanks very much as always. What a scene --

MARIOTTI: Thank you --

SCIUTTO: To watch. Well, after a vaccine does gain approval and it is likely, states are facing a Friday deadline to come up with a plan to distribute it to you and me, and all of us. It is a major task. How do they do it? And we're just moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street, stocks look to start the day flat. The approval of the Pfizer vaccine in the U.K. not shaking up the markets this morning, investors are going to watch Capitol Hill, though.

[09:25:00]

There are now competing stimulus plans, sound familiar? One from Senate Majority leader Mitch McConnell, the other from a bipartisan group of senators and representatives. We're going to speak to a couple of them. Plus, the government runs out of money in just eight days, so there's that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Well, the country is close to overcoming the first hurdle, that is, developing and approving a vaccine.