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COVID Crisis; Will President Trump Pardon Family?; Britain Approves COVID-19 Vaccine. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 02, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:18]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Hi there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN on this Thur -- check that -- Wednesday afternoon.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: Thank you so much for being with me.

We begin with enormous progress on COVID vaccinations today, the chief scientific adviser of Operation Warp Speed predicting 100 million Americans could have their shots by February.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MONCEF SLAOUI, CHIEF ADVISER, OPERATION WARP SPEED: So, between December, mid-December, and end of -- sorry -- in February, in the end of February, we will have potentially immunized 100 million people, which is really more or less the size of the significant at-risk population, the elderly, the health care workers, the first-line workers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Those health care workers and people living in long-term care facilities will be at the front of the line.

That's according to the CDC, but, before that, the first nation to actually roll out its vaccines will be the U.K., where Pfizer's vaccine was just green-lit. They will begin vaccinating hundreds of thousands of people starting next week.

But here in the U.S., CDC Director Robert Redfield is warning that the next three months will be -- and I quote -- "the most difficult time in the public health history of this nation."

Redfield is most concerned about the stress on this country's health care systems. And the U.S. broke yet another record for the number of people hospitalized just yesterday, almost 99,000. That is more than double the number of hospitalizations reported on November 1, and more than triple the number of hospitalizations reported on October 1.

Johns Hopkins University is tracking deaths reported so far today, already at more than 1,300, and it is only 3:00 Eastern standard time.

CNN's Athena Jones has more on the global race for vaccines and, more importantly, the vaccine distribution.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UGUR SAHIN, CEO, BIONTECH: We believe that it is really the start of the end of the pandemic.

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the United Kingdom becoming the first Western country to green-light a coronavirus vaccine, plans are already under way to distribute it in the U.S. once the FDA gives the OK.

A CDC advisory committee recommending health care workers and residents of long-term care facilities be among the first to be inoculated, with the first shipments set to be delivered December 15 for Pfizer and BioNTech's vaccine and December 22 for Moderna's.

DR. AMY COMPTON-PHILLIPS, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: This is a really complex thing to distribute.

JONES: Federal officials expect 40 million doses to be available by the end of December, with between five and 10 million doses becoming available each week for the first few months, as vaccine makers ramp up production.

States must preorder the Pfizer vaccine and draw up distribution plans by Friday. But it will be months before most people get a shot. And America is already in crisis.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: If you look across the United States, we are really in a public health crisis right now, because we're having a surge, the likes of which is worse than the surges that we all saw in the late winter, early spring.

JONES: The White House Coronavirus Task Force warning: "We are in a very dangerous place, with the COVID risk to all Americans at an historic high and inadequate mitigation efforts in many parts of the U.S."

The U.S. reporting its second deadliest day of the pandemic, nearly 2,600 lives lost to COVID-19 Tuesday, and setting another record for hospitalizations, which more than doubled in the month of November.

FAUCI: So many states are at the brink of being overrun with regard to their capability of taking care of people in a proper way, particularly in intensive care.

JONES: Oregon reported its highest single-day death toll so far. Texas set a record for new cases in one day. And, in Kentucky:

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR (D-KY): No way to sugarcoat it. Today is the very worst day that we have had for reporting on the spread of the coronavirus. And it is the deadliest day that we have had.

JONES: California's governor is weighing the possibility of a statewide stay-at-home order as cases surge there.

And, in Mississippi, new restrictions mean around 65 percent of counties are now under mask mandates.

GOV. TATE REEVES (R-MS): It's bad. It's bad everywhere. And it's certainly bad here in the great state of Mississippi. This is a dangerous time. We all need to adjust our behavior accordingly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JONES: And with Christmas right around the corner and the terrible numbers we're seeing across the country, the CDC has this same message for the upcoming holiday season that it had for Thanksgiving.

The best way for people to protect themselves and their loved ones is to stay home and not to travel -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: I want to get back to vaccines here.

Athena, thank you so much for that reminder.

Let's get more on the first shipment of the Pfizer vaccine, could be coming to the U.S. in just 13 days.

CNN political correspondent Sara Murray has been reporting on all these developments from the FDA.

[15:05:05]

So, Sara, this is obviously a huge undertaking. How is Pfizer going to pull this off?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It is a huge undertaking.

And, look, Pfizer is supposed to be the first one out of the gate. That's the first one the FDA is going to be reviewing. But Moderna is not far behind.

So, December 15, is the date on the calendar for the Pfizer vaccine. December 22 is the day for the Moderna vaccine. These are tentative. Obviously, the FDA has to authorize these products before they can go out.

But the hope from Operation Warp Speed is that, within 24 hours of that FDA authorization, the Pfizer vaccine and then later the Moderna vaccine, are already going to be going out.

But here's the catch. Once those vaccines go out, it's really up to states to make sure that they get in the arms of the people who need them. Now, we know that first on that list is health care workers and also people who are in these assisted living homes. A lot of these states are not going to get enough doses right off the bat even to do all of their health care workers.

BALDWIN: OK. MURRAY: So, even within that population, we have talked to states who

are prioritizing. If you're a health care worker who's dealing with COVID-19 infected patients day to day, you're probably going to be at the very front of that line.

The federal government has really taken this sort of 10,000-foot approach in talking to states and saying, what are you going to need? Are you going to need more freezers for these Pfizer vaccines that have to be stored at these really cold temperatures? Do you need dry ice if you can't get those kinds of freezers?

They're helping out in that way. But, for states, it's going to be an enormous challenge. They're already saying, we need more federal funding, especially when we get in the next couple of months to the broader population, because it's hard, Brooke. It's hard to make sure people come in not just for the first dose, but also for that second one.

BALDWIN: But the second one.

That's exactly right. And I have talked to enough doctors. They got to make sure they get the messaging out, because you are not OK without both doses.

Sara, thank you so much.

A man who knows that all too well, Dr. Paul Offit, he is a pediatrics professor and director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

So, Dr. Offit, thank you so much for being with me. And let me also mention, of course, you are a member of the FDA Vaccine Advisory Committee.

So, thank you, thank you, and welcome.

DR. PAUL OFFIT, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Tell me first, why is it that it's the U.K. who got this thing done first? They're ready to distribute next week. What more is the U.S. FDA waiting for? And how did the two nations' processes differ?

OFFIT: I don't know. I just know that Pfizer submitted all of its data to the FDA a number of weeks ago.

The FDA is processing reams of data. Then they will provide to us, the FDA Vaccine Advisory Committee, sort of a summary of that, probably a roughly 100-page summary of that, which we will then read carefully to make sure that the tip of the iceberg, which we have been seeing through all these press releases, is supported by the base of the iceberg, that there's nothing that we're worried about in terms of safety, nothing that we're worried about in terms of efficacy.

We may be a week behind the United Kingdom, but I really don't think that's a huge deal. The most important thing, I think, for the American public is to know that there are going to be a group of researchers and academicians who are going to carefully go through every piece of data regarding this Pfizer vaccine, to make sure that, when it claims to be a safe and effective as it is, that it really is.

BALDWIN: As far as the who, Dr. Offit, who gets the vaccine?

I know the ACIP advised the CDC as to who gets it first. So, just for everyone watching, this whole thing goes in tiers. So, you have group 1-A, and that will be health care workers and residents of these long- term care facilities.

And there was a lot of agreement on health care workers there. Then it's the next tier, Dr. Offit, it's the group 1-B that I understand could be a bit more difficult. Everyone's jumping in, lobbying to get their people in that group. How will the ACIP handle that?

OFFIT: Carefully.

(LAUGHTER)

OFFIT: I think what they're going to do is -- right now, I think the first group is clear, residents and staff at long-term care facilities. And we know that 40 percent of the deaths have been in long-term care facilities, obviously essential workers.

Health care is easy. We're the ones who are on the front lines that are seeing patients who are infected with this virus.

Then the question is, what's an essential worker? I mean, education, transportation, utilities, law enforcement, et cetera, I mean, are all essential workers, that we need to have those people working in order for our country to function.

And many groups, obviously, are going to make that claim. And so how the ACIP is going to handle that is going to be difficult, I think. And the other thing that I think is upsetting here, the most upsetting part, is that this vaccine, if it really is as safe and effective as it appears to be from the press releases, this is a lifesaver.

And we don't have enough. We only have 40 million doses, which means -- because it's a two-dose vaccine, it means 20 million people. Just the first tier, which we talked about health care workers, long-term care facilities, that's 24 million people's.

So, we don't have enough for that first tier. And then you want to get to the second tier, which is 87 million. Then you get to third tier, which is about at least 100 million. You're talking about half the American population before you get to the general population.

And you know for a fact that there are going to be people who don't get this vaccine who, because they don't get this vaccine, are going to suffer, be hospitalized, or possibly die because we don't have enough yet. So it's hard. It's like we're living in shark-infested waters, we only have so many lifeboats, and that's the hardest part.

[15:10:09] BALDWIN: I know it. We need more lifeboats, right? That's the obvious solution.

You threw out a lot of numbers. But the numbers matter. Let me read to you -- this is what the head of Operation Warp Speed said, that 100 million Americans could be vaccinated by February of next year, which multiply that by two, because you need the two doses, that would mean 200 million doses.

So, just going by the numbers you just threw out, the numbers that he's throwing out today, is that realistic; 100 million Americans could be vaccinated by February? Like, do you think that will really happen?

OFFIT: It seems aspirational.

My understanding was that we could make enough vaccine for, say, five million Americans to be inoculated every week. I mean, if you add up just the numbers that I said, just to get through the first, second and third tier, before you even get to the general population, that would bring you at least into April or May, so -- which is what Dr. Fauci had predicted.

We will see.

BALDWIN: I want to jump back to group 1-B, because your answer was, they will figure that out very carefully.

But I'm just curious, from your perspective, being on the front lines and talking about these essential workers, beyond the health care in 1-A, who do you think should be in that second tier to receive this vaccine?

OFFIT: So, you're going to put me on the spot.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I sure am.

(LAUGHTER)

OFFIT: Thank you.

So, I would say groups like those who are involved in mass transit, those in pharmacies, grocery stores, those involved in education, those involved in a variety of utilities, including water purification, law enforcement, at the very least, in order for our society to function, at the very least.

But, again, that's just my opinion on how society works. I'm a virologist, so I'm probably not the best person to answer that question.

BALDWIN: I think you know a thing or two about this, and I appreciate you answering my question.

A reminder to everyone, Dr. Offit, that this vaccine does require two doses. And we know a lot can happen between doses. People forget.

You are in vaccine education. How are doctors going to get the word out that one dose is not enough?

OFFIT: Well, I think people are scared to death of this virus. And if you're told that you need a second dose either 21 days later or a month later, depending on the vaccine, I think people will go back.

I mean, if you look, probably the best example is the shingles vaccine, which is a two-dose vaccine that's given to adults to protect one of the worst pains in medicine, which is the pain of shingles. And about 85 to 90 percent of people come back for that second dose. And, frankly, I think people are far more scared of this virus than they are of shingles.

BALDWIN: Dr. Paul Offit, thank you so much. Thank you for all that you do.

OFFIT: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up: Can the president of the United States pardon his own family before they're even charged with a crime? He is talking about it. And we have those new details ahead.

Also, hospitals across the country are running out of beds, as COVID cases soar. I will speak live with a doctor who says his hospital is struggling just to keep up with the flood of patients.

And any moment now, president-elect Joe Biden will meet with a small group of business owners, as more of them go under. How does he plan to help them?

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

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[15:17:30]

BALDWIN: You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.

The president's potential partner list is growing by the day. CNN has now learned he is now discussing preemptively pardoning his three oldest children, his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, and his personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani.

We have also learned the Department of Justice is now investigating a presidential pardon bribery scheme that involves money being funneled to a White House or related political committee in exchange for a pardon.

Let's go to the White House and our correspondent there, Kaitlan Collins.

And, Kaitlan, let's just begin with the president potential pardons of those closest to him. What more have you learned? KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is

something that the president has discussed in recent days, as he realizes his time in office is coming to a close.

And so we have learned from sources that the president is discussing preemptively pardoning his three adult children that you see the most, of course, Ivanka Trump, Donald Trump Jr. and Eric Trump, but also his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, and his personal attorney Rudy Giuliani.

And so while it's not clear what the criminal exposure for some of those individuals would be, the president has been telling people that he is operating under this basis that he believes prosecutors are going to target his family and even potentially himself once he's out of office.

And so that is why it's something he's considering. But on top of that, the president is also being encouraged by some of his allies, like Sean Hannity of FOX News, to even pardon himself on the way out the door, which, of course, would be incredibly unusual for him to do.

But these are all things he is considering, we're told. And the White House didn't deny it today. The press secretary said she hasn't been a part of those conversations. But we are told by multiple people that this is actively being discussed inside the White House.

BALDWIN: Kaitlan, thank you.

I want to talk about all of this with Anne Milgram. She's a CNN legal analyst and former New Jersey attorney general.

And, Anne, I have a bunch of questions for you. But let's just take a minute and consider what we are discussing here. The president's children are potentially in such legal trouble that they need their dad to protect them in his final days in office before it's too late.

ANNE MILGRAM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, that's right. And I think that that's exactly what we will see happen.

If we think about it, we already know that it's been publicly reported that Don Jr. had made statements before Congress that were believed to have potentially been false. We know that Ivanka Trump has been named as potentially benefiting from some of the tax schemes that her father was engaged in.

We know Jared Kushner may have lied on his security clearance. So, again, it's not certain that any one of those individuals would ever be prosecuted, but it is clear that, at least as been publicly reported, they may have some liability.

[15:20:08]

And so it looks like the president is just going to put a blanket pardon potentially over all of them, which wouldn't allow (AUDIO GAP) prosecuted in the federal government for any (AUDIO GAP)

BALDWIN: I hear you emphasizing federal government and also blanket pardons.

So let's back up for a second. Just for people watching, what is a preemptive pardon? Because, again, reminder, none of these people has been charged with a crime. You said blanket, because I'm wondering, would this cover a specific crime, or could it just be this blanket pardon for any potential crimes in the future? And is that lawful?

MILGRAM: Right.

So they'd have to specify something. But if you think about Richard Nixon, remember that Gerald Ford pardoned him for all conduct while he was president, while Richard Nixon was president. So that's a pretty -- any criminal federal offense.

What we saw with Michael Flynn is that he was pardoned for anything he had discussed even with the Mueller team, any of the information he had provided. So, again, that could be any federal crime that he committed.

What's important to recognize is that you do not have to have been charged with a crime to receive a pardon, but you can only be pardoned for conduct that has already occurred, meaning if Michael Flynn committed a crime today--

BALDWIN: Got you. Got you.

MILGRAM: -- he could be charged for that. He just cannot be charged for the prior crimes.

BALDWIN: Got you.

And we know presidential pardons don't provide protection against state or local crimes. So, if President Trump does do this, and you are a state or local prosecutor, what are you thinking?

MILGRAM: Well, that's exactly right. And I think that's one of the most important points here.

There are already two state cases going in New York. The district attorney, Cy Vance, has brought an investigation, we know. He has not brought charges yet. And we also know that the state attorney general's investigating. And that relates to President Trump's taxes, potential bank fraud, potential real estate deals.

And remember that the corporation, the Trump Organization, is centered in New York. So I expect that you will see those cases continue to go forward. You could see investigations continue to go forward. But any federal offenses, you would not be able to see.

BALDWIN: Got it.

What about this other story about how we have learned that a DOJ -- the DOJ is investigating a scheme where money was going to be exchanged for a presidential pardon? And, apparently, these court documents are so heavily redacted. We don't know who this could be involving. But from everything you have read, what do you think?

MILGRAM: Right. So there's a lot we don't know.

What we know at this moment is that DOJ is investigating and that they sought access to a large number of e-mails, that they'd seized electronic devices, and they were looking at e-mails that went back and forth between two individuals and the White House, and that the speculation is that there was an ask for a pardon or commutation, a lessening of a sentence, in exchange for campaign contributions.

Again, we don't know a lot about it. What I can say for sure, Brooke, is that this president, unlike virtually any other president that I can remember, he has not used the Office of the Pardon Attorney. So there is a set office that has a process through which people apply.

And, instead, Donald Trump has just sort of handpicked friends, family members, his cronies, people who have been loyal to him, and there really is no set process. And so, when you start to think about these types of investigation that DOJ is now doing, the president has completely opened himself up to this by just picking people at will to pardon.

BALDWIN: And the fact that he didn't go through the process properly, and it would be directly also linked to him. I got you loud and clear.

Anne Milgram, great to see you. Thank you so much.

MILGRAM: Thank you.

BALDWIN: The massive uptick in coronavirus cases putting a huge strain on hospitals, as more of them run out of beds and more doctors are being asked to work outside of their specialties.

One of those doctors joins me live next.

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[15:28:45]

BALDWIN: Nearly 99,000 Americans are hospitalized right now with COVID, the highest number of the U.S. has seen since the start of the pandemic.

In Wisconsin, for example, nearly one in four people hospitalized with COVID are in the ICU. That is more than 400 people isolated from their loved ones receiving critical care.

Joining me now is Dr. David Andes. He is a professor and chief of the Division of Infectious Disease at the University of Wisconsin Hospital.

So, Dr. Andes, welcome. And thank you for all that you do.

DR. DAVID ANDES, UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN HOSPITAL: Thank you.

BALDWIN: It is just the 2nd of December. We have a long winter ahead of us. How is your hospital? How full are you?

ANDES: Our numbers are pretty out of control right now.

And if we continue to see record numbers of new cases and hospitalizations per day, I worried that we won't have room. So, while we're open right now, at some point, that math doesn't work out. And right now, we're about 98 percent full.

BALDWIN: Ninety-eight percent full. Wow.

Where would patients go when you hit 100 percent full? Would they be turned away?

ANDES: Well, we certainly don't want to turn folks away.

I can't imagine having to rational -- ration medical care.