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U.N. Refugees High Commissioner: Ethiopian Refugees Want to Return Home; Massive Bushfire Threatens Unique Australian Ecosystem; Trump Supporters in Georgia Hold Onto Hope; China Preparing for Large- Scale Vaccine Distribution; England Moves Out of Lockdown. Aired 12-1a ET

Aired December 02, 2020 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world, I'm Paula Newton.

Coming up on CNN NEWSROOM, with the rollout of the first vaccine, we will learn who will get the vaccine first.

And the attorney general deals another devastating blow in his efforts to overturn the U.S. election.

And the United Nations makes a desperate plea for access to refugees in Ethiopia with food running dangerously low.

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NEWTON: After all the months of suffering and sacrifice, the coronavirus vaccine seems closer than ever to reality. Even though most remain unapproved, their rollouts are already gaining global momentum.

That as the number of international COVID cases, as you see there, approach 64 million. In the United States, an advisory panel for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has now voted on who should get those very first doses.

Meantime, according to a federal document the first shipments of Pfizer's vaccine are to be delivered on December 15th. Now hospitals are already getting the special freezers in place that can store the Pfizer vaccine at the required subzero temperatures.

Moderna's vaccine shipments, in the meantime, are supposed to arrive December 22nd. These delivery estimates are based on both drugmakers getting emergency use approval. The U.S. FDA commissioner says he expects that decision will not take very long now.

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DR. STEPHEN HAHN, COMMISSIONER, U.S. FOOD & DRUG ADMINISTRATION: We should be relatively quick afterward but there could be issues that come up that we have to address. And one thing we can't do is promise something that isn't deliverable because of an issue that comes up regarding safety or effectiveness.

But we absolutely have to do this the right way, to get this done and get the answer that's appropriate for the American people and the world.

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NEWTON: You can certainly hear the enthusiasm in his voice. More on the CDC's vaccine advisers' vote on phase Ia of the coronavirus vaccine distribution plan. That is clear, about who will be the priority.

They're recommending health care workers, who are at risk of exposure to infectious materials, and residents of long-term care facilities get the very first COVID-19 vaccines. The CDC says residents of care facilities account for 6 percent of coronavirus cases in the United States.

But here is the data point that we're all watching, they account for 40 percent of coronavirus deaths.

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NEWTON: Dr. Jose Romero joins me now. He's the chair of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices.

And obviously, your advisory committee having a busy day today.

In terms of the decision itself, if I understand it correctly, it is strategic, right? You are trying to make sure that you can mitigate the worst cases that have come into play with this virus and, of course, try to cut down on the death toll.

DR. JOSE ROMERO, CHAIR CDC COMMITTEE ON IMMUNIZATION PRACTICES: That is in part true. We also want to look at the issues of trying to protect our health care providers, those are going to be at the front lines dealing with the ill, those with COVID.

And with the current surge in COVID, we're concerned that the health care system could be overwhelmed and if we're losing our health care providers we're losing a key part of that system.

NEWTON: And so the people that are in group one are then people who are living in nursing homes, their care providers. And then as a whole, other health care providers who are frontline workers?

ROMERO: That is correct. So that's one aim, right. A bit of clarification on the health care providers.

So it's health care providers who at large because it's not just the nurses, the doctors, respiratory therapists. It's also those individuals that help keep the system running. So it is housekeeping who turns over the room very quickly in an emergency room or is taking care of cleaning a room of a patient that has COVID. It's the individual that is delivering food trays to those sick individuals.

So all of those individuals that could come into contact with somebody who has COVID are eligible for this first round of vaccine, if they're a health care worker.

NEWTON: And I understand that that will go a long way. In terms of the actual vaccine that is available, how many weeks or months are we talking about?

Because obviously there are tens of millions of people just in the category that you just outlined.

ROMERO: That's correct. So we think there's about 23-, 24 million healthcare providers and then about 3 million or so residents of long- term care facilities.

So we think -- at least it looks like FDA will have a meeting next week on the 10th of December. In that meeting, they will authorize the use of Pfizer's vaccine if it is proven to be safe and efficacious.

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ROMERO: Shortly after that, the vaccine will be delivered to states and municipalities and from then we'll begin immunizing. We believe that in our state, we may begin immunizing in about two weeks or so.

NEWTON: Right. And I want to clarify. The final decision is up to the states in this case in terms of who they do prioritize, obviously taking advice from the committee?

ROMERO: That's correct. It's up to the governors and the secretaries of health and health officers of that state.

NEWTON: OK. And now we start to get to what to me seems incredibly complicated, who should go after that first group. And if I understand correctly, you guys didn't make a decision on that yet.

What I'm finding interesting is how much does the data that you have available from those first vaccine makers, how much is that coming into play here?

For instance, if you decide to vaccinate elderly people or those with underlying conditions, are you worried about the efficacy of the vaccine or any side effects that might happen?

ROMERO: We are worried about both. So -- and I wouldn't say worried. We're interested in seeing what the efficacy is in different age groups, in different races and ethnicities and in underlying conditions.

So it's very important for us to look at the data itself. So far we've only had little snippets that have been released by the company itself.

We want to look at the actual data that the Pfizer company has and we also want to look at the data that the FDA had because FDA will analyze Pfizer's data and will look at it from their point of view and from the pharmaceutical company.

Those factors were going to deciding when the next group of individuals will be voted on.

So if I can expand on that further. So we are looking at three other groups. They are the essential workers, those individuals 65 and older and those individuals with comorbid conditions known to be associated with adverse event or more morbidity when infected with COVID.

NEWTON: Right. And that will come obviously in the coming weeks. I thank you for your time, Dr. Jose Romero.

As I said it must be a great sense of relief to have gotten to this point. And still so much work to be done.

ROMERO: Thank you, yes. The group has done an incredible job and we still have more to do.

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NEWTON: Yes, we can definitely hear the relief in Dr. Romero's voice there.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel is warning of a third wave of coronavirus infections if people aren't careful. She says the country has to make it through the winter months and is preparing to do just that by getting ready for the new vaccines. CNN's Fred Pleitgen has that.

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FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Germany is in the process of constructing dozens of vaccination centers like this one. Essentially what the Germans are saying is that because some of the vaccines that are set to be approved fairly soon would have to be stored at ultra cold temperatures, they're going to build facilities like this, where they have the freezing capacity and then just bring a lot of people to here to get vaccinated.

The way to do that safely, they believe, is to create vaccination lanes. The way all of this is going to work is that, first of all, people who are going to get vaccinated they come to this first room, where wiring and Internet is being laid right now.

They're going to speak to a doctor and then that doctor is going to ask about possible pre-existing conditions, medical conditions that could make it dangerous to get a vaccination shot.

Then people come over here. This is really where people are going to get the vaccine, the jab administered. You can see there's four rooms here. That's just because they want to be able to bring several people in here. For instance one person may be taking off their shirt to get their shot. Another person might already be done and putting their shirt back on after getting their shot.

That's so they can increase the number of people that can come through in a safe way. Then finally the people that are going to get their vaccine are going to come to this area right here.

This is sort of the observation area, where everyone who gets a vaccination shot is going to be monitored for 15 minutes to make sure that people don't have any sort of severe reactions to the vaccine.

At that time, they're going to be constantly monitored by medical personnel. The Germans say that this particular vaccination center is going to be finished by the middle of December and has the capacity to vaccinate about 1,000 people every day -- Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Germany.

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NEWTON: China is also ramping up plans for vaccine distribution. In a country of more than a billion people, of course, that is an obviously daunting and enormous task. CNN's David Culver is live in Shenzhen, China, with the exclusive report.

David, I have to note that, given you brought us all that reporting at the very beginning of this pandemic, the relief, the medical miracle that it is, that we here we are in December, early December, and we are talking about a rollout again in China.

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DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is. It is a medical miracle for some and it raises a lot of questions and skepticism for others, wondering how effective it's going to be.

You've got at least five candidate vaccines that are Chinese made, going through phase III trials right now, Paula. What's interesting, hearing from Fred's reporting in Germany, is while the focus for many countries, like in Germany, like in the U.S., is distribution domestically, here in China, it's about global distribution.

So this is going to be one of the hubs to send out to the rest of the world, to other countries, so that they can then potentially benefit from a vaccine.

Now it's not all goodwill from China's perspective. You got these companies that are involved that will make money from this. You've also got something that people call vaccine diplomacy; given that many countries are looking at China with a negative outlook, because of the initial outbreak and what some consider to be mishandling of that initial outbreak, this perhaps is an opportunity to redeem themselves, if they can provide a vaccine that is effective to other countries.

We talk about places in Africa, a lot in America as well in the Middle East. We were able to get an exclusive look into the preparations that are already underway and the infrastructure that is already constructed here in Shenzhen for one of the hubs, to see how that global distribution will play out.

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CULVER: You are looking at one of the cargo jets that will soon be taking vaccines that are approved here in China, made by Chinese biotech companies, to the rest of the world. This one is a charter, Ethiopian Cargo. It's their pharma wing.

Look over here, you can see they are already loading up some of the PPE, some of the face masks, some of the Hazmat like suits. Inside, however, they have built an infrastructure that is temperature and climate controlled. Why does that matter?

Well, as soon as the vaccines are approved, they have to be kept at a certain temperature setting and that is the only way they can be transferred from start here in Shenzhen in southern China to finish.

For this aircraft, it continues on to the Middle East. One thing that's important to note is the logo on the side, Cainiao. That is a part of Alibaba. It's their logistics and distribution part. Normally, they are doing goods that people are buying online. Think of Amazon but on a massive scale. That is the company that here in China is helping with the distribution of vaccines as soon as they are given the go ahead.

WAN LIN, CEO, CAINIAO: We are ready to move the vaccines.

CULVER: Cainiao's CEO Wan Lin says the company is now adding more routes for global reach.

LIN: We are not sure about the exact demand on that but we are definitely building our capability to be prepared for that.

CULVER: While China has yet to approve a vaccine for public use, Cainiao says their end to end climate-controlled infrastructure is in place and ready. The required temperature, which differs depending on the vaccine, must be maintained throughout transport, from leaving the production facility, to airport storage and finally, to global cargo distribution.

GEORGE MAO, VICE-GENERAL MANAGER, CAINIAO GLOBAL SUPPLY CHAIN: For example, the Shenzhen airport terminal it has already set up a cold chain warehouse mainly for the medicine suppliers.

CULVER: CNN got an exclusive look inside that cold chain facility which will soon store the approved vaccines. Now these chambers can be specified and even customized based on the required temperature for each vaccine. And they can put them in different chambers within so as to accommodate that.

Cainiao then now works with different airlines to ensure that cargo temperature is sustained throughout the flight, in this case, Ethiopian Airlines. Since the start of the pandemic, they've flown more than 3,000 tons of supplies to Europe, Africa, the Middle East and South America. TEWOLDE GEBREMARIAM, MANAGING DIRECTOR, ETHIOPIAN AIRLINES: So we do the same also with the vaccine to distribute to all destinations around the globe and then we can cure a lot of human beings.

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CULVER: It sounds incredibly promising when you hear it put in that way. But the reality is, it all depends on a vaccine being approved here in China. We know, Paula, that several biotech companies that are Chinese, that are competing for this vaccine development, are facing questions of effectiveness and transparency.

If they can overcome that consumer skepticism and win trust globally, the reality is that you have companies like Alibaba's Cainiao right now that are ready to start shipping globally.

NEWTON: Right, and start implementing that soft power that you say China is keen to put into practice. David Culver for us in Shenzhen, China, thanks so much.

Just hours ago, England ended its second lockdown and a new updated tiered system went into effect. The month-long lockdown showed some success, with researchers saying coronavirus cases fell by about 30 percent during that time.

But now, of course, there are regional tiers instead, with most of England in the two strictest categories.

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NEWTON: Prime Minister Boris Johnson facing significant opposition from lawmakers, including some within his own Conservative Party. He cautioned Parliament against lifting restrictions too quickly.

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BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I accept that this is not a return to normality, I wish it were so. But it is a bit closer to normality than the present restrictions.

And what we can't do is to lift all the restrictions at once or move too quickly in such a way that the virus would begin to spread rapidly again.

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NEWTON: Now the U.K. is also expanding care home testing and will allow indoor visits. This means residents can see their families for the holidays as long as their loved ones test negative, wear PPE and follow other protocols.

Just ahead here, the U.S. attorney general deals another blow to Donald Trump's hopes of overturning the election. We will have reaction from the president's legal team.

Plus, with millions of Americans still suffering from the economic impact of the pandemic, Joe Biden promises help is on the way.

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NEWTON: Now a significant admission from the U.S. attorney general William Barr, a staunch ally and defender of Donald Trump, he tells the Associated Press, "To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election."

Barr went to the White House shortly after the interview was published.

Before the election, he echoed the president's claim that mail-in voting was not secure.

The president's legal team responded today, saying, in part, "With the greatest respect to the attorney general, his opinion appears to be without any knowledge or investigation of the substantial irregularities and evidence of systemic fraud."

Now the White House has yet to comment on reports that Trump is discussing preemptive pardons for his attorney, Rudy Giuliani, and other close allies.

The list even includes his adult children, Don Jr., Eric, Ivanka and Ivanka's husband, Jared Kushner.

According to CNN's reporting, the president has told advisers he and his family have been unfairly targeted and he's afraid that will continue during the Joe Biden presidency.

And if all of that wasn't enough, court records unsealed Tuesday show the U.S. Justice Department is investigating another possible bribery for pardons scheme. CNN's Evan Perez has those details.

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EVAN PEREZ, CNN SR. JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: There's an investigation that has been ongoing that appears to show -- or at least according to this document -- appears to show that there was a bribery scheme. That someone was trying to essentially funnel money, some kind of campaign donation in exchange for a presidential pardon.

Now we don't know exactly who the campaign donation was going to. From reading the documents we can tell that this involved some kind of contact with White House officials.

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PEREZ: We've talked to White House offices who say they have no idea what this is about. The names of the people involved, the law firms that were involved, all of this has been redacted. And it clearly was released by the chief judge here in Washington over the objections of the Justice Department, which wanted to keep these documents secret.

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NEWTON: Jessica Levinson is a professor of law at Loyola Law School and the host of the "Passing Judgment" podcast. She joins me now from Los Angeles.

Every night, I seem to say there's a lot to get through and indeed there is.

Trump's own attorney general -- we heard him there was categorical, right, there's no evidence of voter fraud. And yet the president persists.

What's interesting here is the effect that this is having.

I want you to listen to a top election official here in the state of Georgia, a Republican no less, talking about why he's worried. Listen.

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GABRIEL STERLING, GEORGIA VOTING SYSTEM IMPLEMENTATION MANAGER: -- commit potential acts of violence. Someone's going to get hurt, someone's going to get shot, someone's going to get killed.

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NEWTON: That was a direct plea to the president of the United States.

Is it clear now the damage that he is doing?

JESSICA LEVINSON, PROFESSOR OF LAW, LOYOLA LAW SCHOOL: It is. It's clear now, it was clear before and it's really extraordinary.

And frankly, I think in part, it's only because Republicans are facing a runoff, two run-offense in Georgia and they need to tell Republican voters, you have to feel comfortable going to the polls.

Don't feel like there's some sort of rampant voter fraud, don't feel like there's some sort of huge problem with the integrity of our electoral processes, it's OK to come.

And that's why you see the split between more of the establishment Republicans, even those who have supported President Trump and his legal team which frankly is looking more and more fringe.

NEWTON: Jessica, this was not to be believed. Republican officials were saying people's lives could be at stake. There are people being threatened, people with police protection in this state.

LEVINSON: It is. It's -- I am glad that you emphasize that, because it's easy to get numb to this. But we have seen civil servants, people who are career members of the government, elected officials, people from all different levels of government feel under threat.

I am glad you pointed that out and emphasize it. And it should be something that isn't normalized. And it is extraordinary, particularly given that the reality is President Trump has won one fairly insignificant lawsuit and lost 39 lawsuits.

We know where this is going. For him to persist, even in the face of pleas from establishment Republicans, really, is extraordinary.

NEWTON: And on it goes. He tweeted about that just after, basically saying that he didn't believe what the official was saying and didn't think it was relevant.

I want to go to other things and one of them is as reports by "The New York Times" and confirmed by CNN, Donald Trump is not only considering pardoning Rudy Giuliani, the lawyer that has taken on these fraud cases for the elections, but also his children perhaps.

I'm going to really rely on your legal expertise here. I know that there is some dispute.

But can he actually do this?

LEVINSON: He can. The president has broad pardon power under the Constitution. There really are very few limits to the president's pardon power with the exception of impeachment. We don't know if the president can pardon himself. That is something that has never been tested.

But we know the president can prospectively pardon people.

The only question is, would the pardon be part of a federal crime?

Would the pardon be because of bribery, because someone said do this and therefore give a pardon?

But I don't think that's the case with his children. So can he do this? I think the best answer is, yes, he can; only for federal crimes, of course, not for state crimes.

NEWTON: I just want to be clear here.

They have not been charged with anything but he can still pardon them?

LEVINSON: Well, President Ford pardoned President Nixon before he was charged with anything. And that was arguably one of the broadest pardons that we have seen since just recently, when President Trump pardoned Michael Flynn.

That was an incredibly broad pardon. In that case, Michael Flynn was not only charged he pled guilty.

NEWTON: Yes, a completely different situation. These pardons are really preemptive. I don't have a lot of time. Before I let you go, a few hours ago at a White House Christmas party, apparently the president said, I will be here another four years and if I am not, I will be back in four years.

Through all of this, he has successfully raised at least $170 million and counting. He can use this money any way he would like.

How damaging do you think this is to the electoral process going forward, in terms of him collecting vast sums of money that he can do anything he wants with?

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LEVINSON: Yes, the president has used these kind of leadership PACs, these leadership committees, where really are very few restraints on how they can be used. It's supposed to be used essentially to make friends and to give money.

How damaging is this going to be?

I hate to punt on this question but I largely think it depends on how much his base stays with him. It depends on whether or not the Trump voters, what percentage of them will stay with him no matter what and what percentage of him will say, let's try and give President Biden a chance. Let's see what happens with coronavirus and the economic situation.

So I think it's too soon to tell.

NEWTON: That's not a punt, that's saying he will have a war chest going forward and it'll be up to his supporters to see what they believe.

Jessica Levinson in Los Angeles. Really thank you for this.

LEVINSON: Thank you.

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NEWTON: Meantime, President-Elect Joe Biden introduced his economic team, which faces the daunting task of rebuilding the U.S. economy. CNN's Jeff Zeleny has more.

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JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our message to everybody struggling right now is this -- help is on the way.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With a pandemic deepening and financial pain intensifying, president-elect Joe Biden presenting his economic team tonight as a new lifeline for struggling Americans.

BIDEN: From the most unequal economic and job crisis in modern history, we can build a new American economy that works for all Americans, not just some, all.

ZELENY (voice-over): Biden formally introduced Janet Yellen to be the first woman to serve as Treasury Secretary.

BIDEN: No one is better prepared to deal with these crises.

ZELENY (voice-over): A former chair of the Federal Reserve, who also led the Council of Economic Advisers in the Clinton administration, Yellen pledged to help rescue families from a one-two punch of coronavirus and unemployment.

JANET YELLEN, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY NOMINEE: The pandemic and economic fallout fit together have caused so much damage for so many and have had a disproportionate impact on the most vulnerable among us.

ZELENY (voice-over): Yellen offered a stark policy contrast from the Trump era, saying structural changes to the economy are needed to address the urgent crisis of income inequality.

YELLEN: It's a convergence of tragedies that is not only economically unsustainable but one that betrays our commitment to giving every American an equal chance to get ahead.

ZELENY (voice-over): Joining Yellen is Wally Adeyemo as the Deputy Treasury Secretary, along with Neera Tanden at Office of Management and Budget and Cecilia Rouse leading the Council of Economic Advisers. They did not mince words about the daunting challenges ahead.

WALLY ADEYEMO, U.S. DEPUTY TREASURY SECRETARY NOMINEE: The American people can do anything when given a chance.

CECILIA ROUSE, U.S. COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS CHAIR NOMINEE: This is a moment of urgency and opportunity unlike any we face in modern times.

ZELENY (voice-over): These barrier-breaking nominees face confirmation, which means, if Republicans retain control of the Senate, at least some bipartisan support will be needed. Tanden is already drawing fierce opposition.

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): She's just been a -- most of her professional life, a hard-edged partisan.

ZELENY (voice-over): For now at least, Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell will play a key role on who makes it into Biden's Cabinet. One month after the election, Biden said this when asked whether he's spoken to McConnell:

BIDEN: Not yet.

ZELENY (on camera): Now Biden is calling on Congress to pass an economic relief bill yet in the lame duck legislative session yet this year but he clearly said that is just the beginning. One of the key parts of his agenda in the first 100 days of his new administration is passing a larger stimulus bill. He said the American people need it urgently -- Jeff Zeleny, CNN, Wilmington, Delaware.

(END VIDEOTAPE) NEWTON: Some music to the ears of K-pop fans. South Korea's parliament has voted to allow artists, including BTS, to postpone their mandatory military service. Yes, I am reading that correctly.

Here is the thing. All able-bodied South Korean men between 18 and 28 must serve two years. The new rule grants an exception for artists who improve the country's cultural status and boost the economy. There was cheering all around.

BTS has become a global phenomenon, of course, since their debut in 2013. Their single, "Dynamite," hit number one on the U.S. charts.

The U.N. makes an urgent plea for access to thousands of refugees affected by the fighting in Ethiopia. The challenges aid groups are facing. That is ahead.

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NEWTON: The U.N. Refugee Agency is urging the Ethiopian government to allow access to thousands of refugees in Tigray. Now the U.N. says about 100,000 Eritrean refugees are not really receiving the food and support they depend on for their survival.

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Their camps were cut off by the fighting between government troops and Tigray's rebel forces. Ethiopia's prime minister has claimed his military offensive is over, but the Tigray People's Liberation Front says their resistance continues.

The fighting began November 4 and has sent about 46,000 Ethiopians fleeing into Sudan. Now, the U.N. high commissioner for refugees spoke with Becky Anderson about the conditions.

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FILIPPO GRANDI, UNITED NATIONS HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES: Many of them don't even want to be moved away from the border, which by the way, we need to do for security reasons. Because they say, We want -- we want to return as soon as it is possible. And that possible means really feeling secure from any types of violence, or retaliation and so forth.

So they don't just want to see the end of hostilities, which is good, naturally. But they also want to be sure that nothing will be done to -- to target them, either through intercommunal violence or in other ways.

We heard reassuring messages from the prime minister of Ethiopia, from the federal authorities, and let's hope that this will be the progression so that these people can go back.

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So what did you learn about what is going on on the ground across the border? Reporting what is going on is extremely difficult. There's a media blackout. And I know it's been extremely difficult for humanitarian agencies, as well, to get a really good steer about the current situation. So what is it, as you understand?

GRANDI: Well, you said it. It is very difficult. It's not only a media blackout, but the communication blackout.

You know, even for the people who -- who find themselves in Sudan -- there's about 46,000 that have arrived so far. Many of them are separated from their families, I've never seen so much separation, and why? Because they cannot communicate with each other. And all the more so for organizations like ours that are present in Tigray, have worked there for a long time.

We need that access, that ability for us to go to the population that we care for, that we work with. We need that to be restored by the federal government as soon as possible so that we can have a better idea of what the needs are and act on them.

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NEWTON: David Shinn joins me now. He's the former U.S. ambassador to Ethiopia. I want to thank you for joining us at what seems to be a pivotal time in this crisis. You know the Ethiopian government continues to say that everything is under control and that they will continue now to deliver humanitarian assistance to the region.

There is, of course, a communications blackout and very difficult to verify anything that either side is saying at this point. What concerns you most?

DAVID SHINN, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ETHIOPIA: What concerns me most is where are the Tigrayan people in all of this? Do they still support the Tigrayan People's Liberation Movement? The more political organization in Tigray, it is opposed to the central government in Addis Ababa, or are they -- are they giving up support of the TPLF?

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And that is a critical question, because if the Tigrayan people still support the TPLF, this is not over. This is going to continue from an extended period of time. The TPLF leadership is still at large in the Tigray region. They have not been captured.

NEWTON: Yes, and in fact, they've indicated that they are not surrendering, and some are suggesting that perhaps we could be in for some kind of guerrilla warfare.

The government seems to be acting, though, with impunity at this point and saying that they have everything under control. What's at stake if this region does turn into that kind of internal civil war in the area?

SHINN: Well, if it -- if it turns into a guerrilla war, then it's basically the worst possible outcome that you could have. Because there's no indication of when it would come to an end.

Theoretically, this should be resolved through some kind of negotiation, some kind of national dialog at this juncture. But an ongoing rebel war in a section of Ethiopia, much of which is very mountainous, relatively easily to conduct a guerrilla war from, does not bode well for the future of the country.

NEWTON: But how destabilizing is it, as well, in the region, especially when we talk about Sudan, which has already had the influx of refugees and, of course, Eritrea?

SHINN: Well, all of Eritrea, all of this is critical. We know very little about that. The TPLF claims that Eritrea has helped Ethiopia militarily.

Eritrea certainly is aligned with Addis Ababa on this. Whether they have provided any military aid is perhaps questionable.

So this -- this is to some extent a regional issue already, with the refugees in Sudan. But more troubling, perhaps, is part of the implications for what is happening in Tigray region, on the other ethnic issues that still exist in Ethiopia, those have been sublimated as a result of the conflict in Tigray, they have not disappeared.

NEWTON: The other thing that has not disappeared, of course, are the calls for the government in Ethiopia to obviously end any kind of human rights abuses, in terms of trying to get more on a footing of democracy. That seems to have gone backwards.

And that's where, certainly, the world of diplomacy comes in. When you look at whether it is the United States or the E.U., what do you think needs to happen now that hasn't been happening?

SHINN: Well, it also involves the African Union. I think in the first instance, what needs to happen is for the African Union leaders, who have been engaged in Addis Ababa, where they are meeting with Ethiopian government officials, need to be allowed to also visit Tigray and decide for themselves what is happening there.

The European Union, the United States and other major players could collectively have a significant impact upon the government in Ethiopia at this point. But first, we have to know what the facts are. And it's very difficult to try to put pressure on a party if you don't know precisely what has happened, or what is continuing to happen.

NEWTON: Right, but that would be the first point of pressure, right? I find it interesting to me that, in the last four to five weeks, basically, the Ethiopian government seems to have been given free rein, and in the prime minister is pronouncements, you can see he is emboldened.

SHINN: He has had a lot of free reign, although just within the last 48 hours, the European Union has said that it may withhold up to 90 million euros of ongoing budgetary support for the Ethiopian government. Their support constitutes about 13 percent of all of Ethiopia's budget. So withholding that next chunk would be a significant problem, if indeed they do so, but that's, again, why everyone needs to know exactly what is happening.

NEWTON: Yes, but unfortunately, in other regions and other conflicts around the world, we've seen when even that threat of withholding aid has not worked to bring the parties to the table. It's a story we'll continue to follow. David Shinn, former ambassador to Ethiopia, thank you.

Now a massive bush fire is threatening a unique ecosystem in Australia. Up next, firefighters are battling to protect the natural beauty of the UNESCO world heritage site.

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NEWTON: A massive bush fire is threatening to destroy a special and cherished ecosystem in Australia. Fraser Island is a UNESCO heritage site in Australia, Fraser Island has lush rain forest and natural beauty.

Firefighters are racing to save it now as other parts of Australia endure a sweltering heat wave.

CNN's Lynda Kinkade reports.

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LYNDA KINKADE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The view from above shows a haze blanketing forests, a wall of smoke from land to ocean. Australia's famous holiday destination, is up in flames.

As the bush fire on Fraser Island raises on for the sixth straight week. Firefighters have been unable to control the blaze, closing in on attractions and resorts, forcing tourists and staff to evacuate.

Authorities say the flames have raised nearly half the island's land area, consuming the unique ecosystem of the UNESCO world heritage site. Officials predict the fire will only get worse.

AGATA IMIELSKA, AUSTRALIAN BUREAU OF METEOROLOGY: With those conditions, we are also likely to see elevated fire dangers again, dry conditions, heat moving across and again that sadly (ph) changed really picking up winds.

KINKADE: The hottest November on record has left parts of Australia ready to burn. Smaller fires dotting New South Wales already threatening some neighborhoods.

The conditions are ominously similar to those leading up to last season's bushfires, now dubbed the Black Summer.

Fires that began in late 2019 burned nearly 12 million hectares nationwide, killing at least 33 people, as well as an estimated one billion animals. It was Australia's worst fire season on record, and officials say it's likely to happen again.

DAVID ELLIOT, POLICE AND EMERGENCY MINISTER, NEW SOUTH WALES: The community out there, unfortunately, thinks that, after the last season, we were -- we are not at risk of bushfire. The reality is, 90 percent of the state is still untouched by bushfire. That means that 90 percent of the land mass across New South Wales is potentially exposed to the sort of bushfire threat that we saw last year.

KINKADE: Conditions growing more dangerous as Australia keeps getting warmer and drier. New record-breaking heat is leaving millions to swelter. Some flocking to pools and beaches, others to water sprinklers as all species of Aussies try to escape the hottest of heat.

Lynda Kinkade, CNN.

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NEWTON: And thanks for watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Paula Newton. WORLD SPORT is next.

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