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Interview with Tampa Bay Times Staff Writer Leonora LaPeter Anton; Former U.S. Presidents May Take Vaccine on Camera; Rudy Giuliani's Pardon Rumors Raised by Michigan State Legislature. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 03, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: CNN has not been able to reach the couple, it's not clear if they have an attorney.

Airlines have been trying to avoid situations like this, no mass coronavirus outbreak linked to a U.S. airline's flight. United Airlines says it has banned the couple from flying again and it is investigating how this even happened in the first place -- Brianna.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: All right, Pete, thank you.

Hi there, I'm Brianna Keilar. I want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world.

We're a nation in freefall, in a crisis of historic proportions, nearly 3,000 Americans reported dead in one day -- this is the most since the coronavirus pandemic began. Hospital and frontline workers are keeping this country afloat, they are saving lives and they're bearing witness to the suffering firsthand while leaders in both the executive branch and Congress have failed so far to compromise on a much-needed rescue package.

The numbers here are difficult to fathom, but these are people, these are families. And a new "Tampa Bay Times" investigation on the haunting toll of an outbreak inside of just one nursing home really drives home the human impact of this virus.

In the span of just a month, Margaret Lally died on April 20th of COVID-19. The next day, Jean Lasner died. So did Donald Jack, who was a Cubs fan. The following day, Christopher Pugh died. And then 48 hours later, Susan Jones.

The next day, Eleanor Schueneman passed away, along with Jeanette DeFrank. Two days after that, Donna Mortenson died, who almost reached her goal to live to 100 years old.

Four people died the next day. One of them was Sue Stephenson. The "Times" reports that her daughter tried to lift her spirits with FaceTime calls, but her mom could barely speak, only able to respond, "I love you, bye." Emil Sudol died an hour after Sue Stephenson. A Korean War veteran temporarily in the facility recovering from a fall, still lived in his home and enjoyed meeting friends for beers at their local bar.

Not long after that, George Egolf died, as did Anthony Fabrizio. Marjorie Blackman, a nurse at the home, was put on a ventilator as her daughter begged for blood plasma for her mom on Facebook. This is Tamara holding a photo of her mom. Marjorie died just a day later.

Eunice Angelone was a Londoner, she met her husband, Grimaldo (ph), during World War II -- he was an American soldier -- and eventually she came back to America with him to raise a family. She died on April 30th.

Two days later, Avis Lilly died, so did Constance Bentler. She told her daughter, I don't want to live any more, I've tried, I'm done.

Forty-eight hours later, Alice Ford died. Louise Johnson passed away the next day, as did Harry Nash, who was a local bookshop owner who spent a lot of his time usually winning chess matches there.

The next day, Beverly Dikman died. Twenty-four hours later, five people died including Russell Douton. He was a magician who was still performing balloon animal shows twice a week. And Patricia Lewandowski died after 25 days on a ventilator.

That was one horrific month at one nursing home. Thirty-two had died, 32 of the 273,000 Americans who have died from this pandemic.

Leonora LaPeter Anton and her colleagues at the "Tampa Bay Times" worked in conjunction with PBS' "Frontline" to bring this story to light, and they interviewed dozens of these family members who lost loved ones in the outbreak, as well as former and current employees. And I should say that reporters also reviewed hundreds of e-mails, inspection reports, legal documents and medical records.

Leonora, this report that you all did was amazing. There is one name that didn't mention there, the very first death in that nursing home, and that is Thomas Minichillo. So I'm wondering if you can share his story with us, and how his coronavirus infection was handled.

LEONORA LAPETER ANTON, STAFF WRITER, TAMPA BAY TIMES: So Thomas Minichillo arrived, he was a retired postal worker, he had a lot of medical problems. And he ended up in Seminole Pavilion after a hospital stay, so his wife often visited him and was very close to him, they'd been married for 59 years.

And so you know, he was -- but he was put in a room, and then all of a sudden she stopped being able to talk to him. And she learned that he was put in a shared room. And this is like in early April.

So you know, at first she spoke to him on the phone a couple times a day, but then, after a while, they were telling her, well, he can't come to the phone, he's too tired, he doesn't want to.

[14:05:01] She went to the window where they were, he wasn't there -- the window of the room that he was in, he wasn't there, he had been moved to another room. And he went silent.

And so on April 5th, Seminole Pavilion apparently sent him to the hospital in an altered mental state. And then on April 9th, the 74- year-old tested positive for coronavirus. On April 10th he died, and nobody found out that he had died until a week later -- the public I mean, they didn't announce a death at the facility until a week after his death.

KEILAR: And why the delay?

ANTON: I'm not sure. You know, they did -- we asked them tons of questions, we sent them like three dozen questions like a month or so ago, and they didn't respond. But I mean, everybody was sort of reeling from this pandemic at the time, it was very early but they were particularly hit hard. And it just seems like, you know, they didn't take the steps that were necessary to protect the residents initially.

KEILAR: So I mean, clearly they were overwhelmed. But you also say in the article, you reached out to Freedom Square administrators for interviews, and they declined. We also reached out for comment this morning, they said that they take these matters very seriously but that they needed more time to prepare a response.

I know you have received a statement from them. What did this say?

ANTON: It said basically, it said -- let me see, hold on a second, sorry. Oh, here. "Our residents' and staff's health is, and always has been, our number one priority. We are fully committed to the health and well-being of everyone in our community -- employees and residents alike. We will continue to do all in our power to keep and maintain a safe and healthy environment here at Freedom Square."

KEILAR: And you know, one of the things I also read that you wrote, Leonora, was about your own father, who passed away while at an assisted living facility in July.

I have to say, this article that you wrote about him, it was an amazing tribute, and I'm sure that there are so many children of elderly parents who connect very much with what you said. But I also just -- I got such an amazing sense of the person that he was, which I know is what you were trying to achieve with that. And I was just hoping that you could share with our viewers some of that.

ANTON: So my dad was 96 years old. He was a real wisecracker, and he had been in the assisted living facility, I brought him down four years ago. And he was there -- he was here four years ago.

He was originally from New York City, he'd been an elevator inspector, insurance person in my youth and he took care of me when I was a young girl. In junior high and high school, he was the person who was there, you know, there for me, he was a single dad for me at that point in time. So he's the person I went to with everything when I was a kid, and we had a very, very strong relationship.

And I would go to see him, like, several times, you know, a week or -- I mean, I tried every day, but you know, at least four times a week, I would go to see him. So we had a regular thing going on.

It was kind of interesting because when I was a young girl, we used to go out to eat all the time at places because he didn't really cook. And then when he got older and came to live with me, you know, we went out to eat again all the time, and he so looked forward to going out to those meals with me.

And he still wanted to live, so it was really sad when he caught the coronavirus, ended up in the hospital and died in July at age 96. And he was a wonderful man.

KEILAR: Yes, it's a beautiful story about your dad, Bob. And you also talk about how you needed those moments as well. So, look, we're very thankful that you're here to talk about your reporting, we are incredibly sorry for your loss. I know this story is very real for you personally and thank you so much for your work.

ANTON: Thank you.

KEILAR: Leonora, we really appreciate it. Leonora LaPeter Anton.

Vaccines are a critical step in the effort to stop the spread of coronavirus, and next week the FDA is going to meet and discuss approving the first vaccine candidate for use in the United States. But even when vaccines are available to the general public sometime next year, there's still questions about how many people will line up to get the shots.

Now, three former presidents are teaming up to help this effort: Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Barack Obama say that they will be willing to get -- they're willing to get vaccinated on-camera if it helps promote public confidence in vaccine safety.

[14:10:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (via telephone): If Anthony Fauci tells me this vaccine is safe and can vaccinate, you know, immunize you from getting COVID, absolutely, I'm going to take it. I may end up taking it on TV or having it filmed just so that people know that you know, I trust this science. And what I don't trust is getting COVID.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Joining me now is Dr. Michelle McMurry-Heath, president and CEO of the Biotechnology Innovation Organization and a former FDA official in the Obama administration.

Doctor, thank you so much for being with us. Do you think that seeing these presidents publicly get the vaccine is going to have this desired effect?

MICHELLE MCMURRY-HEATH, FDA ASSOCIATE SCIENCE DIRECTOR UNDER OBAMA: Brianna, I sure hope so. This is incredibly important. You know, the story that you just so eloquently shared with the American public just underscores how important it is for all of us to commit to trying to protect not just ourselves but our family members and our neighbors when the COVID vaccines become available.

The science has been sound, it's been rigorously tested. The U.S. is taking the extra step of making sure that we have a public advisory committee meeting at the Food and Drug Administration next week, just to air, for the general public, all of the scientific data that we do have about the vaccine candidates.

I know some of your viewers might have heard that the United Kingdom cleared one of these vaccine candidates this lats week, but the American public should be very reassured that the FDA is taking extra steps to double- and triple-check everything and to show the American public behind the scenes in their decision-making before making any final call.

KEILAR: There's new reporting today on Moderna's vaccine. In the "New England Journal of Medicine," researchers say that the vaccine produced high levels of antibodies that were detected for 119 days. What is the significance of that?

MCMURRY-HEATH: Well, it's significant to show that, first of all, the vaccines seem to be producing pretty long-lasting immunity, those antibodies, we hope, confer immunity to infection from COVID, so that's incredibly important.

But the other thing that might go unnoticed about this is that this wasn't just a news story, this was actually a peer-reviewed scientific journal article that lets you know that the science has been double- and triple-checked by independent groups of scientists, not just those within Moderna.

And so all of our leading companies have been really working hard to make sure they not just show transparency with their science, but they let other independent scientists take a look at that data as well so that they can be extra-certain about the validity.

KEILAR: Dr. McMurry-Heath, thank you so much for coming on, we appreciate it.

MCMURRY-HEATH: Thank you.

KEILAR: We have some breaking news, President Trump won't answer whether he has confidence in his attorney general. And we're hearing new details about his contentious meeting with Bill Barr at the White House this week.

Plus, see what happened when someone asked Rudy Giuliani about whether he asked President Trump for a pardon.

[14:13:13] And then later, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo keeps his plans to invite hundreds of people to a holiday party at the State Department despite the raging pandemic.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Today, President Trump is speaking publicly for the first time since reports that he is growing more and more frustrated with Attorney General William Barr. This, after Barr told the "Associated Press" this week that he has not seen fraud on a scale that could have led to a different outcome in the election.

Reporters asked Trump just moments ago about his confidence in Barr, and this is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you still have confidence in Bill Barr?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ask me that in a number of weeks from now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: All right, joining me now is CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger. That was some kind of answer right there, especially considering how loyal Barr has been over time to Trump. But he might consider this the most ultimate loyalty test, the president might?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, it's very clear from Kaitlan Collins' reporting and our White House reporting that the president's really angry about this.

What struck me about that answer was, in a number of weeks from now, you may not be in the White House anymore, so let's see if he does anything to Barr before that.

It's hard to understand or to know exactly why Barr did what he did after, as you point out, he's been the president's biggest loyalist here, as we all know, even telling Wolf Blitzer that of course there could be tremendous fraud in an election that was executed by mail, and the Roger Stone sentencing, and you know, on and on.

I can only think that when the president alluded to the fact that maybe the Department of Justice and the FBI were in on this ridiculous theory about perpetrating fraud in the election, that that may have been a step too far for Barr.

And he finally came out publicly, telling the A.P. first -- before the president, which was interesting to me -- that you know what, my folks have investigated this, I can't go along with you, I've reached the limit here -- knowing full well of course that while he may be preserving his legacy, he was probably likely to lose his job but at this point, maybe so what.

KEILAR: Well I mean, he's losing his job anyway, here, in a few weeks, right?

BORGER: Yes, exactly. Yes, of course, yes.

[14:20:01]

KEILAR: A source, Gloria, tells CNN to expect a flurry of pardons before --

BORGER: Yes.

KEILAR: -- President Trump leaves office, and this week we reported that associates in Trump's orbit including his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani have approached the president about this. And when we asked about it yesterday -- when asked about it yesterday by a Michigan lawmaker, let's listen to how Giuliani responded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DARRIN CAMILLERI (D), MICHIGAN HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: And why should we not believe the reported attempts of you to try to seek a pardon from the president?

RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PERSONAL ATTORNEY: What was the last part?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That part is not relevant --

(CROSSTALK)

CAMILLERI: You're attempting to seek a pardon, so why is this (ph) not part of that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- to the election. Representative, representative?

GIULIANI: I will -- I will ask that he be disciplined for that.

(CROSSTALK)

GIULIANI: First of all -- first of all, first of all --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's hold it --

GIULIANI: -- what he said is untrue. Second, that is a defamation of my professional character.

CAMILLERI: I said --

(CROSSTALK)

GIULIANI: You allow that? Do you allow that to happen in your legislature?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As I said --

CAMILLERI: I said reported. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- as I said, Representative, let's keep it

limited to the germane issue here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: What do you think, Gloria?

BORGER: Well, Giuliani called it a defamation of his character, so -- and he said he never had discussed a pardon. We know that you don't have to discuss a pardon, we know that a pardon can be -- the president can be asked about it by others on behalf of Rudy Giuliani, his attorneys can do it, you know, there are all kinds of ways to do it.

The question that was not asked was, do you want a pardon, a pre- pardon or whatever you call it these days from the president of the United States? We don't know the answer to it.

But I think the outrage was faux and I think that Giuliani clearly didn't want to deal with this, he wanted to deal rather with his deranged theory about the rigging of the election instead. I think neither of those topics are actually at this moment crucial to what's going on in this country.

KEILAR: And, Gloria, we just heard -- we learned that the president is praising QAnon conspiracy --

BORGER: Yes.

KEILAR: -- theorists behind the scenes. Sources tell us that he had this meeting with Mitch McConnell and some other aides in the Senate, and the president mentioned Georgia Republican congresswoman-elect Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is a QAnon believer.

And then the president praised the group, saying that it's made up of people who basically believe in good government -- and just a quick reminder that QAnon believes Democrats and celebrities run, like, a huge pedophile ring and that they drink the blood of children. So what the heck?

BORGER: And they believe in good government, is that --

KEILAR: That's what he's saying.

BORGER: What Donald Trump knows is that QAnon supporters like him, and he has said that in the past, if you recall. He said, well, I know they like me. And he -- that's all he cares about, is whether they like him, whether they would vote for him at some point in the future should he run for the presidency, whether they will stay as a part of his all-important political base.

I think he has not paid any attention to what they honestly believe. If people have told him -- and by the way, people at that White House meeting didn't stand up and walk out and say, Mr. President, this is a group of people who believe in those crazy things that you just outlined, Brianna. No, they didn't do that, they didn't say, Mr. President, how can you believe this? These people are racist, anti- Semitic, you know, and believe in these lunatic theories, they didn't do that. They sat there, they sat there and then they went on to something else.

So who is the president surrounding himself with at this particular point, you have to ask, and why couldn't they say to him, Mr. President, that's crazy?

KEILAR: Why start.

BORGER: Yes, I guess, I guess.

KEILAR: Gloria Borger, thank you, thank you so much --

BORGER: Thanks, Bri.

KEILAR: -- it's great to see you.

BORGER: Good to see you.

KEILAR: And a quick programming note, President-elect Joe Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris will join Jake Tapper tonight for their first joint interview since winning the White House. That is at 9:00 p.m. Eastern, only on CNN.

Next, the White House trying to keep the idea alive that the vaccine should be named after President Trump, we will roll the tape.

[14:24:11]

Plus, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, ignoring the advice of every credible health expert, inviting hundreds of people to a holiday party at the State Department. I'll speak to a restaurant owner who is outraged by it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Remember this special moment on Planet Trump?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERALDO RIVERA, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: it would be a nice gesture to him. And years from now, it would become just a kind of a generic name. Have you got your Trump yet? I got my Trump, I'm fine. I wish we could honor him in that way because he is definitely the prime architect of this Operation Warp Speed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: That is Geraldo suggesting the vaccine be named after President Trump. Many people laughed when Geraldo pulled that one out of his empty vault. Many, but not at the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We will have 40 million doses by the end of the year, which is a tremendous achievement, not just to have gotten a vaccine in this time, but to have produced 40 million in advance. It's -- having a businessman as president, it's the Trump vaccine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now, does she mean the businessman who suffered chronic losses, has hundreds of millions of dollars in debt coming due, who avoided paying income taxes in 10 of the last 15 years according to a "New York Times" investigation?

[14:30:01]