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Trump Erupts at Attorney General in Meeting?; White House Holding Meetings on Presidential Pardons; U.S. Hits Record COVID-19 Daily Death Toll. Aired 3-3:30p ET
Aired December 03, 2020 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:00]
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: That is one person every 30 seconds. Let me say that again, one person every 30 seconds.
Unfortunately, the death toll is not the only record we are shattering here. More than 100,000 people are hospitalized right now. That is an all-time high. Hospitals across the country are running out of beds.
Layoffs are also resurging alongside the virus. An additional 712,000 Americans filed for unemployment benefits just last week. And public health officials are sounding the alarm that this is about to get worse. More than 200,000 new coronavirus cases were reported yesterday, which means, in about a week-and-a-half, our daily death toll will only go up; 2,800 killed, that is more than the number of American personnel killed in Pearl Harbor.
That is more than the number of American citizens who died on 9/11. So, when the president announced that he would be addressing the nation last night, one would expect him to comfort this country in mourning, a nation fearful for the winter ahead.
Yet, his first words?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This may be the most important speech I have ever made.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: His most important speech, it was about himself and his unwillingness to accept defeat.
He did not even mention the pandemic once. He instead bloviated for 46 minutes about baseless, fictitious election fraud claims, still insisting that he won.
The CDC is now projecting that the U.S. will add 60,000 more coronavirus deaths by December 26.
Nick Watt has more on where we're all headed.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ERIC GARCETTI (D), MAYOR OF LOS ANGELES: It's time to hunker down. It's time to cancel everything. And if it isn't essential, don't do it.
NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Coronavirus spread in Los Angeles is, officials say, terrifying, only about 100 ICU beds left in a county of 10 million. Could all be filled by Christmas.
DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, INTERNIST: I think that California, just like everybody else, let their guard down.
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH: We need to do something now. I'd rather do it now and try to avoid the cases of the future than wait to try to put this in place when the house is so on fire that, in fact, our -- we have crossed that case cliff and hospitals basically are literally overrun. That's what we're up against.
WATT: Nationwide, Wednesday was, by many metrics, the worst day of this pandemic, but no words of comfort from the White House, just that 46-minute baseless rant over the election Trump lost.
More than 200,000 new confirmed COVID-19 cases Wednesday, almost a record. Last Friday was higher. More than 100,000 COVID patients currently in the hospital, that is a record; 2,804 for COVID deaths reported Wednesday, also a new high.
DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: We're soon going to surpass 3,000 deaths a day. We may even surpass 4,000 deaths a day.
WATT: And, today, the U.S. past 14 million total confirmed cases.
WEN: I can't quite believe that there are still governors that refuse mask-wearing mandates, when that's something so simple that will save tens of thousands of lives.
WATT: Then there are the likes of the mayor of Austin. When restrictions were a little looser last month, he addressed his people--
STEVE ADLER (D), MAYOR OF AUSTIN, TEXAS: We need to stay home, if you can.
WATT: -- from a hotel in Mexico. Now an apology.
ADLER: I want you to know that I regret that travel. I wouldn't travel now. I didn't over Thanksgiving, and I won't over Christmas. And no one should.
WATT: Three former presidents say they will get vaccinated on camera to show it's safe. The nation now readying for that vaccine rollout as soon as the FDA gives the green light.
DR. TROY BRENNAN, CVS HEALTH: Our plan is to be ready to go as early as December 15.
WATT: But why is the U.S. behind Britain, which already authorized the Pfizer vaccine?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: We have the gold standard of a regulatory approach with the FDA. The U.K. did not do it as carefully. They got a couple of days ahead. I don't think that makes much difference. We will be there. We will be there very soon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WATT: Now, the governor of California is speaking in about a half- hour. Could be some more restrictions coming down for the state.
And, Brooke, so many horrifying numbers surrounding this pandemic. Today, this one hit me the hardest, the CDC forecasting that between now, the day after Christmas, another 55,000 Americans could be dead, killed by COVID-19 -- Brooke.
BALDWIN: It's so many numbers. I just don't want us to get numb to the numbers. These are lives. These are brothers and aunties and grandparents. And it is just so much worse than I think most people had anticipated.
Nick Watt, thank you very much for that.
Joining us now, one of the doctors you just saw in Nick's piece, former Baltimore City Health Commissioner and emergency room physician Dr. Leana Wen. She is also a CNN medical analyst.
[15:05:07]
So, Dr. Wen, thank you so much for being here.
And, yesterday, more people died from this virus than any other day this year, 2,800 lives lost. Did you ever think it would get this bad?
WEN: What you said so resonated with me, that we should not be thinking about this as a number, because, every day, the numbers just keep climbing. And, at some point, we become numb, because we just keep on shattering the records from the day before.
But we need to consider that these are individuals, that there are entire families and communities that are devastated because of coronavirus. And the unfortunate and such tragic news is that we haven't seen the peak of this, and not even close, because we haven't even seen the impact of Thanksgiving travel yet.
We're just going to be seeing the cases from Thanksgiving this weekend, early next week, and hospitalizations and deaths following that in a week or two's time. So, I think this is the time for us to redouble our efforts. I know that there's so much pandemic fatigue, that people are sick and tired of this.
But we have to hang in there for just a few months longer. The vaccine is on its way. But we have to get through this winter. BALDWIN: I just want to repeat what you said. We have not seen the
peak yet.
You mentioned vaccines. They can't reach health care workers soon enough. Still, with the onslaught of COVID cases and hospitals inundated, a vaccine won't lighten the load this winter. How do hospital nurses and doctors and staff handle the caseload even after they're immune?
WEN: So, we are facing a critical shortage now of health care workers.
And different from what happened before in the spring and the summer, when it was only certain parts of the country that were on fire, and we could send in health care workers to relieve them, we now have the entire country on fire with this virus.
And there just is no additional staffing available. Already, care is being rationed. And I hope people hear that, but it's not like there is a switch that one day we have enough health care workers, and the other day we don't.
Right now, we have a nurse who usually takes care of 10 patients taking care of 20. We have ICUs that are now not just being staffed with ICU doctors, but by other doctors who want to do their best, but aren't trained to be there necessarily, untrained in intensive care.
That's the level of rationing care that we're now seeing all across the country. And because of that, it's not only care for COVID patients that's going to suffer. It's care for all patients.
And we are hearing reports now on 911 EMS systems now being overwhelmed. And that's terrifying, because that's a collapse of a society. If you can't pick up the phone and know that you won't need help if your child is choking, if your spouse is dying from a heart attack, if the ambulance won't come to save you, that's a collapse of our society.
BALDWIN: The quote precisely is this. The American Ambulance Association just issued a public letter to say that the 911 emergency medical center system is -- quote -- "at a breaking point." You made your point.
I want to move on to -- you have said we haven't seen the peak yet. We still don't have the numbers from Thanksgiving. You have this new op- ed in "The Washington Post" encouraging people to do something that is excruciating, cancel any sort of Christmas travel plans.
Tell us what your message is.
WEN: My message is, from now on, for the foreseeable future -- and I don't mean for forever, but just so that we get through this winter -- do not have any nonessential travel and do not gather indoors with people who are not in your immediate household.
We know that this virus is everywhere at this point. There is a very high likelihood that, if you are gathering indoors with other people, without wearing masks, close together for long periods of time, that someone is going to be an asymptomatic carrier and that person will spread it to you, you will spread it to other people and around your communities.
Please don't do this. We don't have that much longer to go. I know we have all gone through a lot, but we can go through a few more months, because, otherwise, we're going to see him our hospital system, 911 systems, everything getting so overwhelmed that we will see so many more deaths that at this point are preventable.
So, no indoor gatherings, please, and let's get through this winter.
BALDWIN: I am listening to you, as an auntie with two cute little nephews in Atlanta. And here I am in New York. And I'm not traveling for Christmas. And it is gutting me.
But we all -- I can't sit here and talk about how many people are sick and have died and not heed the guidelines. And I just -- I echo your sentiment. And I appreciate you saying that. It's so tough, though. It is so tough.
But thank you, Dr. Leana Wen, for all of that.
I want to pivot to some breaking news that's coming into us here at CNN this afternoon. Sources are telling us that the White House has held multiple meetings ever since the election about issuing pardons. We're getting those new details coming into us next.
[15:10:06]
Also ahead, the U.S. attorney general, Bill Barr, striking a nerve with the president, after telling the Associated Press this week that there was no widespread voter fraud in this presidential election, President Trump erupting at Barr in a meeting at the White House. We will discuss that.
And, obviously, a lot of positive vaccine news, but children are still not involved in any of the trials.
You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
BALDWIN: All right, here is the breaking news just coming into us here at CNN. This is out of the White House, where we're now learning multiple pardon meetings have been held since Election Day.
[15:15:05]
Let's get straight to chief political analyst Gloria Borger, who is breaking some of this news, along with our colleague Pam Brown.
So, what do about these pardon meetings? GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: And our White House
colleagues, who reported earlier this week there -- for us to expect a flurry of pardons.
And what Pamela and I are reporting is that, yes, in fact, there have been multiple meetings about pardons led by the White House Counsel's Office, in which names have been discussed: Should this person be on this list? Should this person not be on this list?
And, of course, you have had the question of these preemptive pardons that include the family and Jared Kushner, for example, which sort of add a new dimension to these discussions. But it's very clear that they're moving very quickly on this.
And you know, with Donald Trump, that he doesn't generally go through the Department of Justice. At least, that hasn't been the case in the past. And so these things could happen at any time now, Brooke.
BALDWIN: We have talked, as our White House folks had reported out, potentially adult children, son-in-law Jared Kushner--
BORGER: Sure.
BALDWIN: -- as you just mentioned, maybe Rudy Giuliani, his lawyer.
Anyone else outside of inner family?
BORGER: Well, one name that has -- that Pamela and I are reporting on is Jared Kushner's father, Charles. He had been convicted of a felony and served for things including tax evasion.
We are told -- two sources are telling us that Jared Kushner is not raising in these meetings. In fact, he is in some of these meetings about pardons. But he himself is not raising the issue, that there are outside groups, for example, who worked with him on justice reform that say -- that have said that he deserves this kind of pardon.
And we're also told that he doesn't have to raise the name, that the president understands that Jared would like this for his father. But -- so, Jared just doesn't have to bring it up.
BALDWIN: Gloria, thank you so much.
BORGER: Sure.
BALDWIN: Let's get some analysis now with Elie Honig, our CNN legal analyst.
And so, if Trump does do this, Elie, what -- just first of all, what's the message he'd be sending out to anyone else in his inner circle?
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Brooke, so get ready, because this administration is going to go out in a blaze of corruption, a blaze of self-dealing.
The image that Gloria's reporting just gave us is such a disturbing one, because what we are seeing is people inside the White House considering which insiders are going to get pardons, friends, family members, the most well-connected people.
Look, this country has a long history of dubious use of pardons. The pardon power is very broad. Past presidents have misused it, but nothing like what we're setting up to see here, where essentially pardons only go to the best-connected, the insiders of the friends and family plan.
That is not how pardons are supposed to be.
BALDWIN: You and I have talked about this week, right, about the reporting on preemptive pardons. And that would exclude Charles Kushner, Jared Kushner's father.
But when you look at the inner family, the folks you see on the screen here, none of them has been convicted of any crimes. That said, would a potential pardon apply to -- if you were to do this, would it apply to a specific potential crime or would it be a blanket pardon for any potential future crimes?
HONIG: Right, so a preemptive pardon, meaning if the president's to pardon somebody who's not been charged federally, Jared Kushner, the president's children, that would be a very, very unusual use of the pardon power.
It has happened in the past, most famously with President Richard Nixon, who received that kind of a pardon. So it's not necessarily illegal, but it raises so many questions. It begs the question, why is there a need for a pardon in here in the first place? People who've done nothing wrong do not need to be pardoned.
And, to me, it would raise flags for other prosecutors and other investigators, state prosecutors, not bound by the pardon to take a close look.
BALDWIN: That's exactly what I wanted to ask, because, as you pointed out, presidential pardons, that doesn't give you protection against state or local crimes.
So, if you are, let's say, a state prosecutor, and you're thinking well, huh, if their father, the president, feels the need to preemptively pardon daughter, son XYZ, might there be a there there?
HONIG: A hundred percent, Brooke.
I have been federal and state prosecutor, so I can see this one both ways. But, sure, if you're sitting in the, let's say, Manhattan district attorney's office, which is a state level prosecutor, and you see this string of pardons come down for people you may already be investigating -- we know the Manhattan DA is taking a hard look at the Trump Organization.
You would say, what's this all about? What are they looking at? Maybe we're onto something here. So, there's not zero risk associated with the president issuing these pardons. Would the pardon stand federally? Sure. But could it cause trouble elsewhere? Absolutely.
BALDWIN: We also know -- we were reporting this out yesterday -- that DOJ is investigating a potential pay-for-pardon scheme. The court documents are heavily redacted, so we don't know a whole heck of a lot, including who this would involve.
But does that tell you that people out there perhaps in the president's sphere would think that they could then pay for -- air quote -- "justice"?
[15:20:08]
HONIG: Exactly, Brooke.
Look, we don't know who was trying to pay, but we know somebody was trying to pay somebody else in order to get a pardon. And we know there's only one person, one constitutional officer who can issue a pardon. That's the president of the United States.
And what this tells me is that there is at least this belief and understanding out there by somebody that these pardons are for sale. Whether they succeeded in buying it, we don't know. But that belief doesn't come out of nowhere. That belief, I believe, is reasonable, based on looking at what the president has done and how he's exercised the pardon power in this really self-serving, insiders-only kind of manner.
BALDWIN: Pardon for sale.
Elie Honig, thank you so much for jumping on with me. It's good to see you.
HONIG: Thanks, Brooke. All right. You too.
BALDWIN: And just a reminder to all of you watching: Please tune in tonight. President-elect Joe Biden and vice president-elect Kamala Harris will be joining Jake Tapper.
This is their first joint interview since winning the White House. It is a CNN special event tonight, 9:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.
Coming up: children still not involved in any of the coronavirus vaccine trials. What does that mean for parents who hope to vaccinate their kids ahead of the next school year? We have answers for you next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:26:11]
BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
As President Trump digs in, flagrantly claiming election fraud over an election he definitively lost, it seems no one, even his staunchest defenders in the past, are safe if they break with him. And that includes his own Attorney General Bill Barr. CNN has learned that the two had a, in a word, contentious, lengthy meeting at the White House this week following Bar's assertion that there is no evidence of widespread voter fraud that would alter the election's outcome.
CNN's Kaitlan Collins is live at the White House for us.
And so, Kaitlan, what are you hearing from your sources about this eruption against Bill Barr?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the president has been incredibly angry with Bill Barr.
And he was angry with him before he made these comments, because he's angry that no one has been prosecuted in that investigation into the beginning of the Russia investigation. But this was really the cherry on top, where Bill Barr came out and he disputed what the president said.
And he was at the White House just hours after that -- those comments to the Associated Press because he had a meeting with the chief of staff. But I'm told by sources that it led to this contentious exchange between the president and Bill Barr in the Oval Office as they were talking about Barr's comments to the Associated Press.
And then you heard the president say as much in front of the cameras in the Oval Office today, where he was saying he didn't think the DOJ properly investigated and looked into all of this. And when he was asked if he had confidence in his attorney general, who we should note was once one of the president's most loyal Cabinet members, a favorite of his, who he talked about and praised regularly, this is how the president responded:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Do you still have confidence in Bill Barr?
TRUMP: Ask me that in a number of weeks from now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: A number of weeks from now, Brooke.
Of course, there are only seven weeks left in Donald Trump's presidency. And so there is really an open question here at the White House about whether or not the president is going to fire the A.G.
He has openly talked about it. Some people are convinced he won't actually follow through with it, because he has been very hesitant to fire anyone in this FBI/DOJ realm ever since the fallout from firing James Comey.
But the president has been very unpredictable since the election, according to people who speak with him the most. And so whether or not he actually follows through with it is still a pretty big question. But it's safe to say he is clearly very unhappy with the attorney general.
BALDWIN: We will be watching right along with you, Kaitlan. Thank you very much.
Let's get back to vaccines here. Vaccine trials for kids under the age of 12 could begin early next year. That is according to Dr. Francis Collins, the director of the National Institutes of Health. So, almost a year into this pandemic, the U.S. hasn't worked out how to successfully get all children back in the classroom, putting parents under strain, hurting grades, and exposing inequities across the nation.
So, what will a delay in the vaccination of our children mean?
Joining me now, Dr. Andrew Pavia. He is chief of Division of Pediatric Infectious Diseases at the University of Utah.
So, Dr. Pavia, thank you so much for being with me.
DR. ANDREW PAVIA, UNIVERSITY OF UTAH: Well, thank you for having me.
BALDWIN: If trials for younger kids begin early 2021, when is the soonest do you think kids could start getting vaccinated?
PAVIA: It really depends on how quickly the trials are finished, which depends on how many sites we have enrolling.
It's going to take at least two months from the time that you start an individual kid on the study until you can get their blood to a month after their second dose of vaccine to see if they had a good immune response.
And you want to watch people for at least two months after the second dose to look for safety. So, it's going to--
BALDWIN: So, potentially within 2021, or are we talking 2022 for our kids?
PAVIA: Well, I think we will probably be able to get -- if things move quickly, we should have information on adolescents, those 12 to 17, some time in the late summer. It's not fast enough.
Some of us think that group should have been started quite a bit earlier, so that we could have them vaccinated in time for school.
