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Trump Called Georgia's GOP Governor To Pressure Him To Get State's Election Results Overturned; Distrust Of COVID-19 Vaccine In Some U.S. Minority Communities; Answering Viewers' Legal Questions in CNN's "Cross Exam"; Federal Judge Rules Trump Administration Must Reinstate DACA Program; Biden Wants to Stop Construction of Trump's Border Wall. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired December 05, 2020 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[17:00:00]

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello, I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Breaking news, a stunning phone call between the president of the United States and the Republican governor of Georgia. CNN has learned in that call the president tried to pressure Governor Brian Kemp to convince state legislators to overturn the election results in Joe Biden's win in that state.

Now, this phone call was made just hours before Trump is scheduled to hold a rally in Georgia for the critical Senate runoffs, and it's similar to what the president is now saying publicly to the governor via his Twitter feed. I will easily and quickly win Georgia if Governor Brian Kemp or the secretary of state permit a simple signature verification. Has not been done and will show large scale discrepancies. Why are these two Republicans saying no? If we win Georgia, everything else falls in place.

Let's take you to the president's rally now in Valdosta, Georgia, where CNN's Ryan Nobles is standing by. Ryan, what more are you learning about this ask from the president?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you one thing, Ana, this is not what Republicans want the focus of this rally to be here tonight. They were hoping that the president would come here with a clear and very specific message about Republicans needing to get out and vote and support the two candidates running in the January 5th runoff.

David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler, the Republican incumbents, they need to win at least one of those seats in order to retain the majority in the United States Senate. So the fact that the president's focus, as he makes his way here to Georgia, is the election that already occurred and the one that isn't about to happen is making Republicans very nervous here in Georgia.

And this continues, Ana, after that tweet that you played -- that you showed from earlier in the day with President Trump, Governor Kemp actually responded to the president, and he said that he did ask for the signature match audit to take place and he told the president that he's doing everything he can to help in that regard, and the president responded to him, yet again, telling Brian Kemp that he should call the state legislature back for a special session to deal specifically with this issue of this supposed voter fraud that President Trump believes was the reason that he lost here in Georgia.

And it's important to keep in mind, Ana, that there have now been three different recounts of the results here in Georgia, and all three of them have shown that Joe Biden won by about 12,000 votes, and the Republicans that have ran the election, Brad Raffensperger, who is the secretary of state here, and Governor Kemp have both said that there is just not the evidence of this widespread voter fraud that President Trump continues to talk about. But it's having a lasting impact now on this race for the Senate.

There are going to be thousands of people here at this event here tonight who are passionate Trump supporters who support him and believe that this election was stolen from him despite the lack of evidence. And there is real concern among Republicans that while the president will come here and he will tell his supporters to vote for Perdue and Loeffler, but that he's also going to mix in a lot of these conspiracy theories and all of this talk about the election actually being in his favor and not the other way around, that it's going to distract from the wider and more important message of electing Perdue and Loeffler.

So we're going to have see how this all plays out here tonight, Ana. He is on his way here. I talked to one senior Republican official who said that they are confident the president is going to sell that message. He's going tell his supporters to vote for Perdue and Loeffler. It's the other things that he may say that's going to distract from that message that could be a problem for them heading into this runoff in January. Ana?

CABRERA: And it looks like there's a big crowd there waiting to hear what the president has to stay. Ryan Nobles in Valdosta, Georgia, thank you.

So, Trump has essentially left the state's Republican leaders in Georgia out to dry. His cries of widespread fraud and a stolen election have had real-life consequences, safety consequences for the Republican secretary of state, for example, Brad Raffensperger, and Republican Election Official Gabriel Sterling. Their families have received death threats, and one election official even had a noose hanging outside their home.

Earlier this week, Sterling pleaded with Trump and Republicans to stop inspiring acts of violence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GABRIEL STERLING (R), GEORGIE VOTING SYSTEMS MANAGER: It has to stop. Mr. President, you have not condemned these actions or this language. Senators, you have not condemned this language or these actions. This has to stop. We need you to step up. And if you're going to take a position of leadership, show some. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: That is Georgia's voting system implementation manager, Gabriel Sterling, who joins us now. Thank you for being with us.

First, I want to get your reaction to this new reporting, a source telling CNN President Trump called Governor Kemp today and asked him to call a special legislative session and to convince state legislators to overturn the election results.

STERLING: Well, Ana, it's not surprising because we've seen -- essentially, that's been a tactic they've been asking for a while. There has been grassroots pressure the president has inspired to essentially throw out the results of the will of the people of Georgia and hand it over to the legislature, despite the fact that we have, through all of our investigations, yes, we found illegal voting, yes, there is going to be things like that in every single election, but nothing like the widespread, ridiculous claims of voter fraud we've been seeing out of the president and his lawyers and his former lawyers.

[17:05:20]

CABRERA: He keeps talking about, you know, if only the state would do a signature verification audit. Would that make a difference?

STERLING: Well, the reality is, signatures are checked not once but twice on the front end of the absentee ballot process. And once you have brought those ballots in, they've been accepted by the registrar, if they separate the ballots away from those actual envelopes with the signatures on them, so there's no way to say this was a person that's not is the voter and take that vote back out. They are mixed in with this.

And we've heard some of these other ideas, that if there's 1 percent amount of illegal votes, which we have no evidence that there is, you have to throw out all 1.3 million absentee ballots. The real issue was that the president, unfortunately, encouraged people to not use absentee ballots and that probably ended up hurting him in the long run.

CABRERA: And now we have the president about to speak at this rally in just a couple hours. Are you worried about what he might say that it could inflame the situation there?

STERLING: I don't know how much more it could really be inflamed. I mean, he's been making these same statements. I mean -- and in this day, especially, we have from both the left and the right, unfortunately, people who have questioned the legitimacy of elections.

We have Stacey Abrams, who still hasn't conceded an election from 2018, now, you have the president out there making these ridiculous claims. Rudy Giuliani came to our state, I guess it was yesterday or the day before yesterday, and showed a video that showed nothing other than regular elections workers doing their jobs after some confusion at the end of the night. I mean, it's not like there's some Oceans 11 crew out there stealing an election at the last minute.

CABRERA: Right, there has been no evidence. There have been a number of lawsuits that have been basically smacked down by judges when they've taken a look at whatever the claim was that was presented. I'm wondering, are you still receiving threats?

STERLING: Oh, yes, I mean, as much support as I've gotten for that speech from Tuesday, I can get my head back down to a normal size when I go through and read my email and text messages.

CABRERA: Well, the secretary of state did announce today that he has asked now the Georgia Bureau of Investigation to help with some 250 cases of alleged election fraud. So, I'm wondering, in these 250 cases, what are we talking about when it comes to the number of votes? Is it one vote per case or are there potentially dozens of potential votes? What is it?

STERLING: Nothing of thousands. The main thing that we're going to be working with the GBI on is there are specific cases in, I think, about four counties where there are some specific allegations around the absentee ballot process itself, and those particular cases, we will be doing an audit of some of the signatures, and they're the experts on how to do the handwriting. They come in and train our county officials. So instead of having the county officials do it again, we're going to bring in the GBI because we've been working with Governor Kemp on making that a reality.

So I think there's about four counties that have been doing some of that but, again, we're in the middle of an investigation. But nothing out there saying that there's 13,000 magical votes out that are out there that can flip this election.

CABRERA: And, again, the votes have been recounted three times. There was even a hand recount, and yet there are still people who say this. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIE DARNELL, TRUMP VOTER: And I think he's going to come through.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's going to come through?

DARNELL: I think he's going to turn it around. I think he's going to turn around. I think we got cheated out of the election, and I'm just sticking with him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who do you think won in November?

RALPH HORTON, BELIEVES TRUMP WON ELECTION: I honestly think Trump did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who do you think won the election, in your viewpoint? Trump?

CHERYL CANTRELL, BELIEVES TRUMP WON ELECTION: Trump. I think Trump did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You voted in November. How are you feeling about the runoffs?

MARK CLAYTON, BELIEVES THERE WAS VOTER FRAUD: I really don't know. I mean, I don't know if it's going to change anything or not. It may or may not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you say that?

CLAYTON: I mean, with all the voter fraud and all the stuff they're talking about, so I don't know 100 percent, you know, what's going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Gabriel, what do you say to those Georgia voters?

STERLING: I say, I know that you're hurt and you're angry and you believe the president has been cheated but the problem with that is there's no evidence that it actually happened. He did a few things and if you look at it, it's normal political science, and nobody wants to hear the numbers around this.

They want to hear, my guy won, your guy lost, because that's what we've come to in this country now, where both sides essentially have demonized the other side, and there's no ability to say, you know, we lost this time, let's go back and fight harder in two years. It is, we have been cheated. It was stolen.

And like I said, I mean, you can go back to even when Hillary Clinton lost and with Russia Gate, and after all of the investigations, there was nothing really there. Then you go to Stacey Abrams, we got cheated, and in the investigations, there was nothing really there. 2020, now we got the president saying, I was cheated.

There's nothing really there. But the partisans who believe in their gut and their heart and their soul that their guy, how could he possibly have lost, he's my guy, it's impossible to wrap your head around, especially when they're continuing to make claims that, yes, you see, we were cheated and we've shown over and over again.

[17:10:10]

The very first claim was that Dominion voting machines were flipping votes. Like what you've pointed out, Ana, we did -- over 5 million ballots were hand-counted by human beings in all (INAUDIBLE) counties. And you know what it showed? It showed the machines did their job.

Sidney Powell is still out there with the ridiculous lawsuit making the exact claim despite the fact this all happened. No matter what we do, and I said this before, it's like a ridiculous game of whack-a- mole. Any time you knock one spurious idea down, you have to knock another one down and they can't seem to recycle. So it's just the president wants to keep his people ginned up on this front.

And I do think, as you were pointing out earlier, that it looks like this is going to affect Republican turnout, like the gentleman at the last part of the clip there, he says he doesn't know if he's going to vote because what does it matter. I have to talk to personal friends who feel the same way. I say, if you think you're being cheated, at least make it harder for them to cheat you and go vote, please. We want everybody to go vote. It was really easy to vote in this state.

CABRERA: You sound fed up. I know you're a Republican, and correct me if I'm wrong, you voted for President Trump. I just wonder, given where we are right now, do you regret that vote?

STERLING: I kind of wish, at least in my state, 13,000 more votes for him, because my life would have been a heck of a lot easier, but with the situation we're in right now, he's not acting as a responsible leader on this front. But, I mean, it goes back to people before, when people were claiming that Hillary was cheated. I mean, it's all sides and all things.

This is the flavor of the moment. This is --

CABRERA: It's not the same thing though. It's not the same thing. He is the president of the United States.

STERLING: Oh, no. I'm not going to argue that point. He has a higher level of responsibility and should be held to a higher account in my opinion.

CABRERA: Well, Gabriel Sterling, we appreciate what you do. Thank you for coming on to try to set the record straight.

STERLING: Thank you, Ana. Have a great day.

CABRERA: You too. New developments in the coronavirus crisis. Just since midnight, the U.S. has reported more than 154,000 new cases today and more than 1,700 new deaths. It's 5:00 Eastern. There's still many hours to go. How much worse can it get?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:15:00]

CABRERA: The COVID vaccines can't come soon enough, but they are coming. Then there's the hurdle of convincing Americans that they're safe enough to take it. Many are expressing hesitancy, particularly in some black and Latino communities.

CNN National Correspondent Jason Carroll spoke to residents of one of the hardest-hit towns in Alabama on what's fueling the distrust.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Hobson City, Alabama, the term city used loosely, it's really a small town, population about 800.

MAYOR ALBERTA COOLEY MCCRORY, HOBSON CITY, ALABAMA: We're a small community, small enough to know everybody and everybody's cat.

CARROLL: Hobson City's mayor says small enough to know that when it comes to trusting in a COVID-19 vaccine, many people here feel the way she does.

MCCRORY: I would love to take the vaccine.

CARROLL: Wait, you yourself are reluctant to take the --

MCCRORY: I am reluctant.

CARROLL: Most of those who live in Hobson City are African-American. Distrust of the medical community runs deep. The town, located about 100 miles from Tuskegee, Alabama, home to one of the darkest chapters in American medical history. In the 1930s, government doctors conducted experiments on black men, leaving them untreated for syphilis until the 1970s, so doctors could monitor how it affected them.

Alabama is taking a beating from the coronavirus, the state's 14-day positivity rate at just over 29 percent. And Calhoun County, where Hobson City sits, the rate is 37 percent. Still, older residents, such as Joe Cunningham, have such little faith in doctors, he was reluctant to go in for a COVID-19 test and any discussion about a vaccine is off the table.

JOE CUNNINGHAM, HOBSON CITY, ALABAMA RESIDENT: I'm afraid to take the test.

CARROLL: Why not, Mr. Cunningham?

CUNNINGHAM: I don't know. I just don't understand it. I like to know who it's coming from.

ANITA JACKSON, CUNNINGHAM'S DAUGHTER: I'm going to have to convince my father because he doesn't know what this vaccine is about. As black people, that's all we know is to trust the Lord and trust God. We have to convince our family that this is the right thing to do, because this will help slow it down and help us to survive.

CARROLL: Distrust in communities of color is not just a small-town problem, it's nationwide. A study conducted in September exploring the issue in black and Latino communities found just 14 percent of black people and only 34 percent of Latinos trust a vaccine will be safe.

CARMEN BAILEY, COVID-19 SURVIVOR: it's like a -- it's almost, to me, like a fear, like I have a phobia of needles. I'm almost at that point where I have a phobia of doctors.

CARROLL: Carmen Bailey was diagnosed with COVID-19 in April. Bailey says she avoided medical help because she feels she has been poorly treated by doctors in the past. Now, the grandmother of three suffers from adverse effects with her heart, lungs and kidneys.

BAILEY: Some days I can barely walk and I'm tired of hurting. I don't know what to do.

CARROLL: What she will not do is take a vaccine.

BAILEY: We don't know any kind of side effects from them. So, I just really feel like at this point, it's people that's going to take that vaccine is guinea pigs.

CARROLL: You really think they're guinea pigs?

BAILEY: I do. I just feel like you -- we don't know enough.

CARROLL: Dr. Margaret Larkins-Pettigrew and her husband, Chenits Pettigrew Jr., know the health community has a number of hurdles to overcome to reach communities of color.

DR. MARGARET LARKINS-PETTIGREW, CHIEF DIVERSITY OFFICER, UNIVERSITY HOSPITALS OF CLEVELAND: When you talk about trust, you know, you're looking at that tug of war. So, you know, do I trust the science, because they're telling me this is what's going to help me, but I have lived experience that says that this may not be so because I have been deprived of other things.

CARROLL: The Pettigrews come from a place of experience professionally and personally, both lived and worked in Tuskegee for a time. Both are participating in a COVID-19 vaccine trial currently under way, and the couple is advocating for trust in the science behind a vaccine.

[17:20:04]

CHENITS PETTIGREW JR., ASSOCIATE DEAN, UNIVERSITY OF PITTSBURGH SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: We thought that it was important to make this contribution and to represent the community that we are part of in a way that says, you can do this, and you can take this vaccine.

CARROLL: Was there any hesitation at all?

M. PETTIGREW: I had no hesitation. I see what happens when people of color are not included in the studies. And that is the, you know, downside of things.

CARROLL: Back in Hobson City, Mayor McCrory says she has had a change of heart, but it had little to do with science.

MCCRORY: I sat across from a young man who came in to purchase a grave for his 59-year-old wife who died of COVID-19 last Wednesday. And if anything makes me change my mind, that changed my mind.

His wife's grave will be right over there in our cemetery, 59 years old.

CARROLL: He changed your mind?

MCCRORY: He changed my mind.

CARROLL: Jason Carroll, CNN, Hobson City, Alabama.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: And let me get Dr. Peter Hotez in here. He is a public health expert and the Dean of the Baylor University College of Medicine. Dr. Hotez, the Department of Health and Human Services has now started a national ad campaign to promote vaccine awareness. They're putting videos on social media. Officials say this is to

prepare the nation for this vaccine or at least any vaccine when it is available. According to a new Pew poll, 60 percent of Americans say they would get the COVID-19 vaccine. Is that enough?

DR. PETER HOTEZ, DEAN OF TROPICAL MEDICINE, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: No. Ana, we're going to need about 70 percent to 80 percent of the U.S. population to take the vaccine if we're serious about using the vaccine to also stop transmission of the virus.

Look, the vaccine will protect you in terms of saving your -- saving you from going to the hospital or the ICU and save your life, which is the most important, but there's a very high bar if we're really going to use the vaccine to interrupt transmission and we're not even close right now the likelihood of attaining that goal.

And there are a few reasons for it, some of which -- some of them, you highlighted in your -- in the piece just now. One, Operation Warp Speed has been a great program in terms of scientific rigor and integrity of the clinical trials, but there was never a communication program or plan to go along with it. So, there was a gap. There was a vacuum. And it was filled by two or three things.

One, it was filled by press releases from the pharma CEOs and the pharma CEOs, more often than not, botched the messaging. There was a lot of confusion about adverse events and all the stock trading. That was a big negative.

Second, we have a very aggressive anti-vaccine movement in the United States that floods the internet. They dominate the internet and social media and the ecommerce sites. I mean, if you go to the Facebook -- if you go to the Amazon site, it's basically an anti-vaccine site. If you put in books, health, fitness, and dieting and vaccinations, it's all fake anti-vaccine books.

CABRERA: Luckily, Facebook is now saying they're going to, you know, interfere with some of that misinformation when it comes to these disproven and bogus vaccine claims. But forgive me for interrupting, I just wanted to get that out there. At least there's action on that front. But please continue with your third -- number three.

HOTEZ: Well, sort of, Ana. I mean, this has been true of the tech companies all along. They do -- they do a lot for optics. They do the minimum possible to show some level of corporate social responsibility. There has not been a good faith effort by any of the techs to really take down the major anti-vaccine organizations and sites. That's the reality.

And, finally, you have this very aggressive program of weaponized health communications coming from the Russians. This has been highlighted by U.S. and British intelligence that are filling our internet and social media with anti-vaccine messages.

So, you know, and I've been on Zoom calls all year talking about this and the focus has always been, we have to get the message out there. We have to fine tune the message. And, Ana, that's absolutely important. But then I say, that will get us 30 percent to 40 percent of the way there, because, so far, no one in the federal government except for a couple of organizations like NVAC, the non-profits, the -- have not shown an appetite to really take down the disinformation.

CABRERA: And, Dr. Hotez, and I want to make sure we get the right information to our viewers, so, I'm kind of short on time, so shorter answers, if you will, for these next couple of questions, but, you know, what do people need to know in terms of potential side effects from these vaccines? Because Dr. Fauci said people could experience low-grade side effects for about 24 to 48 hours. What should we anticipate?

HOTEZ: Yes, they will. And they're not that different from previous vaccines, like Shingrix or flu vaccines. So people will -- some will develop fever. Some will develop fatigue or muscle aches and pains.

[17:25:02]

We're talking about a day, maybe two days, probably could be relieved with anti-inflammatories. These are -- there are side effects but they're modest.

And remember, there's a reason why we did those 30,000 to 60,000- person clinical studies. If there was a common serious side -- adverse event or side effect, we would have seen it in those clinical trials. So, this is why the FDA has been so careful about making certain we do large clinical trials, so it's all hands on deck to maximize the likelihood that this is going to be safe.

The only difference is we're doing this -- we're following patients for two months instead of a year and we had to do that. Because if we waited a whole year to release these vaccines, with 2,000 to 3,000 people dying per day, remember there was no national program for COVID control. 2,000 to 3,000 a day, add up times a year and the loss of life would be staggering.

CABRERA: It already is so staggering. Already 280,000-plus deaths in the U.S. Dr. Peter Hotez, I really appreciate your expertise. Thank you for being here.

HOTEZ: Thank you so much.

CABRERA: Breaking news here on CNN. A stay-at-home order going into effect for all counties in southern California at midnight tomorrow, that very drastic decision affecting about 23 million people in Los Angeles and San Diego and that area, and, really, anywhere in between as COVID cases there are surging.

Hospitals are reporting their intensive care units are filling up at an alarming level, and so California officials say, for now, this stay-at-home order will be in place for at least three weeks.

The Southern California region is the most populous part of California. Several million other people are affected by a stay-at- home order. That also goes into effect tomorrow night. That's in the bay area and the San Joaquin Valley. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:31:15]

CABRERA: There are 46 days until Inauguration Day when the president, the new president officially is sworn in. That's President-Elect Joe Biden.

And according to a source, we should expect a flurry of pardons in Trump's final weeks.

That brings us to "CROSS EXAM" with CNN legal analyst, Elie Honig. He's here to answer your legal questions.

Elie, one viewer asks: Are there any limits at all to a president's pardon power?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Ana. I learned this week that our viewers are very interested in pardons and very concerned about how the pardon power can be used and abused.

And rightly so. Because the constitutional pardon power is extraordinarily broad. Almost anything goes.

And over our history, presidents of both parties have, at times, used the pardon power for dubious and corrupt purposes.

And now, if the last few weeks are any indication, we might see President Trump really pushing the outer boundaries.

But know this, there are two things that the president cannot do for sure.

One, he cannot pardon somebody for future conduct. A pardon can only be backwards looking. It can only apply to past conduct. We do not give out licenses in this country to freely commit crimes in the future.

And number two, the president can only pardon for federal crimes, not for state crimes.

That's crucial because we know the Manhattan district attorney, which is a state-level prosecutor, is investigating the Trump Organization. That could implicate the president, his family, and others.

And in that particular case, Ana, a presidential pardon will have no impact whatsoever.

CABRERA: And so CNN's reporting that, since the election, President Trump has been discussing, you know, preemptive pardons for his oldest children, as well as Jared Kushner and Rudy Giuliani.

One viewer wants to know: Can the president preemptively pardon someone who has not yet been charged or convicted for a particular crime?

HONIG: Ana, he very likely can. The vast majority of the pardons over history have gone to people who have been charged or convicted of specific federal crimes.

But there are rare, historical examples of preemptive pardons issued to somebody who's not yet been charged with a crime. The most famous example was the 1974 pardon of Richard Nixon, who was never charged with a crime.

So the president likely can do this legally but there certainly will be a political cost to pay.

First of all, the issue a preemptive pardon to family members is almost unprecedented in our history. It would be a bold-faced abuse of power and self-dealing.

And second of all, a preemptive pardon would really wave a flag for state prosecutors.

Remember, presidential pardons do not protect against state charges. If I'm a state prosecutor, I'm asking, why is a pardon necessary here? Something must have happened.

It would just be one more reason for a state prosecutor to dig in and take a close look.

CABRERA: There's no signs the president and his allies are going to slow down in these attempts to overturn the election of Joe Biden.

And according to CNN's count, it's dozens of lawsuits they filed that have gone nowhere, at least 30 cases since Election Day.

One viewer asks: Is there some limit to the number of frivolous lawsuits that can be filed challenging the election? At what point do these challenges come to an end?

HONIG: Good news. There may be an end in sight, soon. Ana, you and I have been talking since the start about how these efforts to overturn the election are doomed.

They somehow got even more doomed this week. We saw the state Supreme Courts in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and an appeals court in Michigan all reject last-minute desperation challenges.

Even Attorney General Bill Barr, who spent two years ferociously supporting and protecting the president, said publicly that DOJ has found no evidence of widespread voter fraud.

Now, there's an end in sight. There's an important date this week, December 8th. That's Tuesday. That's what federal law calls the Safe Harbor Date.

Meaning any state that has certified its slate of presidential electors by that date cannot be legally challenged and after that date. And then, the electors formally gather and cast their votes next week

on December 14th. At that point, it's official over.

[17:35:05]

But, Ana, in reality, as we've been saying, it's been over for a long time now.

CABRERA: No doubt.

Thank you, Elie Honig. Good to see you.

HONIG: You, too, Ana. Thanks.

CABRERA: Coming up, a defeat for the Trump administration and a win for DREAMERs worried about deportation.

Plus, President-Elect Biden says he wants to stop construction of Trump's border wall. But that may be easier said than done. We'll explain, live, in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: A federal judge on Friday ruling the Trump administration must reinstate the DACA program for undocumented immigrants who came to the U.S. as children.

I want to get right to CNN Reporter, Priscilla Alvarez, who covers immigration policy.

Priscilla, the Trump administration, we know, has been trying to roll back DACA for years now. Is it over? Are DREAMERs safe?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN REPORTER: There's no question that last night's order was significant for DACA recipients and for undocumented youth who are eligible for DACA but unable to apply because of limitations put in place by the Trump administration.

[17:40:09]

So, yes, last night's order restores the DACA program to pre-2017. Meaning before the Trump administration tried to end DACA.

And there are a few things that that includes. For example, rolling back two-year renewals -- I'm sorry, going back to two-year renewals instead of one year. And also allowing new applications.

And so this is significant for DACA recipients. In fact, plaintiffs told us that they're looking forward to moving forward.

Now, we have asked the Department of Homeland Security how they plan to proceed and have not yet received a response.

But the judge did say in his order last night that he expects them to publicly notify, on their Web site, that they plan to restore the program by Monday. CABRERA: And we know that President-Elect Biden is very much in

support of DACA's recipients staying in the U.S. and figuring a path forward for them.

So, Priscilla, you also just had some new reporting this hour on President Trump's border wall. President-Elect Joe Biden saying he wants to stop construction of that border wall.

What does that entail?

ALVAREZ: The short answer is that Biden could halt construction if he wanted to. But it's not going to be easy.

Look, there are dozens of ongoing border projects. And those are continuing now as they will in the upcoming year. And so, halting construction could mean terminating or modifying contracts. And that can be costly.

We spoke to contracting experts who told us that while the government has discretion to end or modify contracts, those contractors will expect favorable settlements. And again, that could be money.

Also, there are other complicating layers. For example, there are the land seizures that the Trump administration has quickly moved to grab in order to build more wall.

Then, two, is maintenance. Who maintains the current border wall? Is it the Department of Homeland Security or is it the Pentagon who has fronted some money for these projects?

So, these are lingering concerns the Biden administration will have to answer to execute on the promise to halt construction.

But they're also concerns that are already being discussed internally among the Trump administration.

Sources tell us that U.S. Customs and Border Protection has met with the Biden team. They have spoken. The wall has not yet come up.

We've also been told that the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which provides oversight of border projects, will be meeting or is expected to meet with the transition this week.

So expect these questions to be coming up in the weeks to come as a Biden administration decides how to move forward on its pledge to halt construction.

CABRERA: Priscilla Alvarez, I appreciate your reporting. Thanks for being with us.

Coming up, inside the close relationship between Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look, there's not a single decision I've made yet about personnel or about how to proceed that I haven't discussed it with -- with Kamala first.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:47:29]

CABRERA: President-Elect Joe Biden and Vice President-Elect Kamala Harris talking about their close relationship in an exclusive interview with CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Whatever the most urgent need is that I'm not able to attend to, I have confidence in turning to her.

Look, there's not a single decision I've made yet about personnel or about how to proceed that I haven't discussed it with -- with Kamala first.

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA) & VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: That's true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Tonight, the new CNN film, "PRESIDENT IN WAITING," digs deeper into the president and vice president relationships. That is the first time all six living vice presidents will appear in one film.

And joining us now is CNN presidential historian, Tim Naftali, the former director of the Nixon Presidential Library, and co-author of the book, "Impeachment: An American History."

Tim, how do you think Biden's previous experience serving as vice president will shape his relationship with his own vice president now, Kamala Harris?

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, first of all, Ana, I think he'll know how to be a helpful vice president. He knows when a president will need advice.

He will know when -- he will be able to help Kamala Harris understand the vice presidency. He will help her -- he will help use her advice in helpful ways.

And also he will know not to make the vice presidency a burden for Kamala Harris.

His vice presidency went very well. His president listened to him and made him feel understood and appreciated. And he will do the same for Kamala Harris. I don't doubt it.

CABRERA: Tonight's film also offers a rare glimpse into the process of picking a vice president.

Here's Dick Cheney talking about what happened to him. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As we went through that process, we spent a couple of months and a lot of time talking about what he's looking for in a vice president. And what I was struck by was how much time and effort he had devoted to it.

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: During the process, I came to the conclusion that the selector was the best person to be selected.

CHENEY: And he said, you know, you're the solution to my problem.

BUSH: And I need your help and the country could benefit from your experience.

CHENEY: And at that point, it dawned on me, I was a lousy headhunter. I hadn't found a good one yet or one that he would be satisfied with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: So the September 11th attacks obviously transformed the Bush presidency. And Cheney, who served as defense secretary for Bush's father, he played a key role in shaping the U.S. military response.

[17:50:00]

Tim, in terms of foreign policy, what do you think Kamala Harris' role will look like on the global stage?

NAFTALI: First of all, she will be an ambassador for the president and for the American people as have all vice presidents before her.

Secondly, she will be able to fact-find. She will be able to go out and collect information for a busy president.

Finally, I think she also has her views on foreign policy. Joe Biden has his own views. But he'll need to listen to his vice president.

It's useful. It's always helpful to be a different opinion and perspective. She will add that I believe.

CABRERA: Biden will be inaugurated on January 20th. So if President Trump doesn't attend, he would be the first president not to do so in more than 150 years.

Though, back in 1974, Nixon resigned. He left the White House before Gerald Ford was sworn in.

If Trump skips Biden's inauguration, Tim, what message does that send to his supporters and the nation as a whole?

NAFTALI: I fear he won't attend. And think it will deepen the message he's sending right now, which is you cannot trust an electoral system that doesn't award him power. It will undermine, in some people, the legitimacy of the Biden

administration. It will make it harder to deal with the pandemic. It would be an act of selfishness. And it would be an unpatriotic act.

I fear that's what he is going to do, however.

CABRERA: The president is already hinting at a second act, a potential 2024 presidential bid. Only one president, Grover Cleveland, has ever moved back into the White House as commander-in-chief after being defeated once.

So, Tim, why is it that former presidents, who lost after serving one term, rarely make a political comeback?

NAFTALI: Well, usually, they're exhausted by the loss. They also take it as a sign that their time is done, it's time to move on, it's time for fresh blood.

Donald Trump doesn't think the way previous presidents thought.

He doesn't recognize the office of the presidency is something you hold temporarily and you pass on to a successor, hopefully, in a better shape than it was when you received it. He is thinking of himself.

And that's why I think he -- and we're talking modern presidents now. We're not talking about Grover Cleveland.

That is why he is thinking of running differently than his predecessors since Theodore Roosevelt.

CABRERA: Tim Naftali, we look forward to the film tonight. And it's always great to have your perspective and expertise as a historian on with us.

Thank you, Tim.

Be sure to tune in. "PRESIDENT IN WAITING" premieres tonight at 9:00 p.m., only on CNN

This year's "CNN Heroes" is focusing on the fight against the coronavirus as well as the battle for racial equity and social justice.

And we're making it easy for you to help by highlighting aid organizations doing important work to help on both fronts and make the world a better place.

Anderson Cooper tells us more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST (voice-over): The Center for Disaster Philanthropy provides strategies to help donors increase the impact of their contributions during global crises like COVID-19.

Chef Jose Andres and his World Central Kitchen feed the needy in times of crisis, using the power of food to heal and strengthen communities.

JOSE ANDRES, CHEF & FOUNDER, WORLD CENTRAL KITCHENS: We need to be part of the solution.

COOPER: Adopt a Classroom advances equity in education by giving teachers and schools access to the resources they need.

GLENN CLOSE, ACTRESS & CO-FOUNDER, BRING CHANGE TO MIND: I challenge every American family to no longer whisper about mental illness behind closed doors.

COOPER: Co-founded by Glenn Close, Bring Change to Mind is working to end the stigma surrounding mental illness and encouraging dialogue and raising awareness, understanding and empathy.

(LAUGHTER)

COOPER: The Make-A-Wish Foundation provides life-changing experiences for children battling critical illness, restoring in them --

UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: Thank you.

COOPER: -- a sense of childhood and bringing normalcy to their families.

(CHEERING)

COOPER: The Equal Justice Initiative fights to end mass incarceration and excessive punishment in the United States by challenging racial and economic inequity and protecting basic human rights in the prison system.

(SHOUTING)

COOPER: Water.org has helped change the lives of millions of people with access to safe water and sanitation in 17 countries around the world.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You did a good job.

COOPER: And finally, Issue Voter is increasing civic engagement beyond the voting booth --

(CHEERING)

COOPER: -- helping people share their views on new bills with their elected officials with just one click.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can create the world that we want to live in through representative democracy by making all of our voices heard on the issues.

COOPER: Want to learn more? Go to CNNheroes.com and click "donate" beneath any of this year's organizations to make a direct contribution to their GoFundMe charity campaign.

You'll receive an email confirming your donation, which is tax deductible in the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:54:58]

CABRERA: Don't forget to tune into the 14th annual "CNN HEROES: AN ALL-START TRIBUTE." That's next Sunday, December 13th, here on CNN.

That does it for me tonight. I'm Ana Cabrera. Thanks for being here with me. I will see you back here tomorrow at 4:00 Eastern.

My colleague, Wolf Blitzer, picks up our special coverage of in a special edition of "THE SITUATION ROOM" after a quick break. Have a great day.

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