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Dr. Reed Tuckson, Co-Founder, Black Coalition Against COVID-19, Discusses Distrust Of COVID-19 Vaccine Among Some African-Americans; Loeffler & Warnock Dodge Questions During Contentious Senate Debate; Congress Racing To Pass Defense, Spending & COVID Relief Bills; House Conservatives Urge Trump Not To Concede; NYC Opens Elementary Schools For In-Person Learning. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired December 07, 2020 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:33:38]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: With the vaccine possibly just days ago from getting the green light in the U.S., a new challenge becomes increasingly urgent, getting people to take it.

Especially black Americans who can point to the Tuskegee syphilis experiment from years ago as a real reason to be skeptical.

A recent survey found just 14 percent trust a coronavirus vaccine along with only 34 percent of Latino Americans.

Remember, the CDC finds nearly 40 percent of reported cases have hit black and Latino people particularly hard.

Listen to one coronavirus survivor in Ohio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARMEN BAILEY, CORONAVIRUS SURVIVOR WHO WON'T GET VACCINE: It's almost to me like a fear, like I have a phobia of needles. I'm almost at the point where I have a phobia of doctors.

We don't know any kind of side effects from them. So I just really feel like, at this point, people will take that vaccine as guinea pigs.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You really think they're guinea pigs?

BAILEY: I do. I feel like we don't know enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: There you go.

Dr. Reed Tuckson is the co-founder of the Black Coalition Against COVID-19 and former health commissioner for Washington, D.C.

Dr. Tuckson, thank you so much for joining me. And thank you for the work you do.

DR. REED TUCKSON, CO-FOUNDER, BLACK COALITION AGAINST COVID-19 & FORMER WASHINGTON, D.C., HEALTH COMMISSIONER: Brooke, thank you very much.

BALDWIN: You heard the COVID survivor there in Ohio using the words "phobia, fear." Explain where this comes from in this country.

[14:35:05]

TUCKSON: This disease of distrust is emerging is almost as important as the disease of COVID-19 itself, in that it is causing really difficult opportunities for us to push through, to make -- have people make appropriate decisions and choices for themselves.

This comes out of, as you mentioned, the Tuskegee syphilis study of the 1930s and '40s, where people who had the disease of syphilis were observed without treatment, even when treatment was available.

Health authorities just watched them and watched them become sickened and watched them die. This horror has stayed in the minds of so many people. And it's become emblematic of the sense of distrust.

It's also combined with the social movement, as you find thousands and thousands of people of color who feel compelled to take to our city streets to declare that our lives matter.

So what happens now is that, as people are feeling distrustful of the elites, distrustful of science, and whether the information they're receiving is accurate and whether it can be relied upon.

And this is a big struggle that we have to overcome that.

BALDWIN: It seems the fear, as you point out, is so deep among black and brown Americans in this country.

How do you and your organization fight that? And also improve access to the vaccine?

TUCKSON: Well, what we have been able to do is pull together the four African-American health professional schools, Howard, Morehouse, Meharry and Charles Drew in Los Angles.

Combined with the National Medical Association, the National Black Nurses Association, along with our colleagues at the National Urban League and blackdoctor.org.

What we have done, as professional societies, as leading health advocates, we are making a statement to the black community. Number one, we love you and we care about you.

Because anything that will be successful, Brooke, must start with empathy, compass and love. Our community needs to hear and feel that.

Secondly, we are accountable for being trustworthy. The one good news in our polling tells us that the institutions that people have confidence in are their physicians and their health professionals.

So we have a trusted role, and we're going to use that.

Third and lastly, we're going to do everything in our power, creating town halls has across this nation through Zoom and other mechanisms.

We are engaging in community meetings. We are meeting regularly, every day, somewhere or another with our community, giving them trusted and trustworthy information.

We'll continue to do that and we're doubling down on that in the days to come.

BALDWIN: To that end, representation matters.

Let me play a clip from your video, speaking of your love.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NARRATOR: Dear black America, we love you. We affirm that Black Lives Matter. And as black health professionals, we have a higher calling to stand for racial justice and to fight for health equity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You know, there's the issue of the fear. There's the issue of access, Dr. Tuckson.

But how helpful is it to point out, in videos such as these, to the black and brown communities in this country that there's doctors, researchers, scientists who are in the inner circle here, who look like them?

TUCKSON: That is the key point, Brooke. You put your finger right on it.

Because we are now able to say, unlike the 1930s, when we had the Tuskegee experience, there are now African-American scientists and clinicians who are in positions of great authority.

We are pleased that Dr. Gary Gibbons is head of the Heart, Lung and Blood Institute at NIH. We're please one of the people that did the pivotal work on the vaccine is an African-American woman scientist.

Finally, we're pleased that on the task force that will be looking at the data coming from the Pfizer and Moderna trials, is the president of Meharry Medical College, an African-American.

We are in the tent. We are there to represent the interests of all Americans, but also represent the interests of African-American Americans.

As we tell that and put that information forward, we're hopeful that will give more confidence.

We are also hopeful and pleased to see the Biden/Harris administration which is putting people of color in key positions.

The more that occurs, the easier it will be to give our community the sense of confidence and trustworthiness to make personally appropriate choices for themselves and their families and their communities.

BALDWIN: Dr. Reed Tuckson, thank you, sir, very much.

TUCKSON: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up here on CNN, a high-stakes debate in Georgia that will help determine the balance of power in the U.S. Senate. The one question the Republican candidate couldn't seem to answer no matter how many times she was asked.

[14:39:58]

And this will be the week that everything either comes together or falls apart for good on the stimulus. Can Congress get it done before millions lose benefits? We'll go live to the Hill where the clock is ticking.

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BALDWIN: Georgia has officially recertified the state's third and legal count of the 2020 presidential election, a race that saw Joe Biden take the state by about 12,000 votes and a race that saw a Democrat win the state for the first time in 28 years. That's big enough.

But during this contentious debate for one of two U.S. Senate seats headed for a runoff, two seats that will decide who controls the U.S. Senate, the Republican candidate, incumbent Senator, Kelly Loeffler, dodged a direct question about voter fraud in Georgia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[14:45:06]

GREG BLUESTEIN, POLITICAL REPORTER, "THE ATLANTA JOURNAL- CONSTITUTION": Senator, do you believe the election was rigged?

SEN. KELLY LOEFFLER (R-GA): Look, Greg, it's very clear that there were issues in this election. There are 250 investigation open, including an investigation into one of my opponents' organizations, you know, for voter fraud.

And we have to make sure that Georgians trust this process because of what's at stake in this election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That Greg she referred to is this guy, Greg Bluestein, a political reporter at the "AJC," the "Atlanta Journal-Constitution." My hometown newspaper.

Greg, awesome to have you back. First, it's frustrating as a journalist when you ask someone a

question various ways and they don't give you a straight answer. So I feel you. Well done for trying.

Senator Loeffler has been a huge Trump loyalist since she came into the Senate in January.

But after last night, and after, you know, maybe when you didn't sleep last night and thought through all the way her verbal gymnastics, does it sound like she knows Trump's attempts to contest Georgia's results are fruitless?

BLUESTEIN: Yes, I think she recognizes that in her heart, but she can't say that.

Right now, there's this dynamic of, just not long ago, President Trump again attacked Georgia's governor, Brian Kemp, for his refusing his demand to call an illegal special session to overturn the election results.

So on one hand, she has to keep Republican voters energized. On the other hand, she can't antagonize President Trump or else he could start tweeting at her and there go her chances in the runoff.

BALDWIN: That's one complication.

There other complication is, if you're a Georgia constituent, Republican voter, and you are hearing the president is a saying, ah, it's rigged, and you're also being told by folks, but you have to go vote, how conflicted are Republican Georgians feeling right now? What are they telling you?

BLUESTEIN: Yes, talk about competing messages. In Valdosta, there was thousands of Trump loyalists who heard that very issue, right? They heard, from Trump, on the one hand, go turn out, January 5th. On the other hand, elections are rigged. Some are thinking, why bother.

I've interviewed dozens. Most Republicans are planning to vote, most who show up at the rallies. But there are some who say they're conflicted. They don't know.

They're worried their ballot won't be counted. They don't know if they should use Dominion voting machines like they use in Georgia, or if they should mail in because the mail-in ballot system has been denigrated for so long.

So there's genuine concern from an element of the Republican party here.

BALDWIN: To be fair, I want to look at the Reverend Raphael Warnock. In that same debate, you can't not get an answer from him on the issue of whether Democrats want to expand the Supreme Court.

Let's watch the clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REV. RAPHAEL WARNOCK, (D), GEORGIA CANDIDATE FOR U.S. SENATE: As I move all across the state, Greg, people aren't asking me about the courts and whether we should expand the courts.

I know that's an interesting question for people inside the Beltway to discussion but they're wondering when in the world they're going to get some COVID-19 relief.

BLUESTEIN: I'm wondering, if you can answer the question, do you support expanding the Supreme Court?

WARNOCK: I'm really not focused on it. And I think that too often the politics in Washington has been about the politicians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Again, a dodge.

Joe Biden struggled with the very same question in the presidential debates.

Why don't Democrats have an answer for this yet?

BLUESTEIN: He might not be focused on it but it's a huge issue that will affect every American.

I think it's probably the same thing with Kelly Loeffler. And it's hard. He knows whatever his answer is.

I'll say that Jon Ossoff, the other Senate Democratic challenger, has said he does not support expanding the Supreme Court bench.

So it wouldn't be controversial if Reverend Warnock had the same idea. But maybe he doesn't. I don't know where he stands.

But I think it reflects how Democrats are worried about turning off their progressive base if they make the wrong move here.

BALDWIN: Greg Bluestein at the "AJC." Greg, great to see you have you on. Thank you.

BLUESTEIN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up, a spending deadline, a potential presidential veto, and the fate of millions of Americans desperate for stimulus help. It's a high-stakes week up on Capitol Hill. We'll tell you where the negotiations stand, next.

And thousands of New York City elementary school students head back to the classroom for the first time today in weeks. What precautions are being taken?

[14:49:32]

Stay with me.

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BALDWIN: Lawmakers have a critical two weeks ahead of them. The to-do list is a mighty big one. It includes passing a spending deal by Friday just to keep the government funded, striking a deal on the coronavirus stimulus package, and passing the National Defense Act.

CNN Senior Congressional Correspondent, Manu Raju, is live on the Hill for us.

And, Manu, is there any progress on any of those issues?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They're still having issues with trying to resolve a COVID relief package. That package has been stalled for months amid bipartisan bickering.

There's been a bipartisan group of Senators and House member who have been trying to find an agreement around a $900 billion proposal. They released some rough outlines last week. They're trying to actually put out the details in the coming days.

But two big issues are hanging things up. One, how to deal with liability protection. Republicans want lawsuit protection for businesses and workers and those affected by the pandemic.

[14:55:05]

Democrats are pushing for money for state and local governments. That is an issue some Republicans say we need a deal on liability protections first before we agree on state and local aid.

The question, Brooke, is whether they can reach a deal on that and whether they can tie that to a government funding bill to keep the government open past this Friday.

On top of that, you mentioned a major defense bill, $740 billion worth, that the president is threatening to veto over his concerns that it doesn't attack social media companies. Nothing to do with the bill at all.

Republicans and Democrats are poised in trying to override his expected veto of that measure. Those discussions continue.

But all coming to a head here in his final days of this Congress -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: As we watch to see them hopefully work through those issues in the coming days, Manu, you just release new reporting about how you are hearing from House conservatives who are urging President Trump not to concede, even after Joe Biden won the Electoral College vote.

What are they saying to you?

RAJU: This is at odds with the view of many Senate Republicans.

Even though the victory of Joe Biden has been known for weeks, has been clear for weeks, most Republicans on Capitol Hill, many top ones say, after next week when the Electoral College votes and essentially certifies that Joe Biden is the victor here, those Republicans say, OK, it's over.

But not some of the president's closest allies in the House. That includes Congressman Jim Jordan, Andrew Biggs, members of the Freedom Caucus. They say the president should continue to fight on until January 6th.

And that's when they come and certify the Electoral College votes and declare the winner in that joint session of Congress.

The Republicans are saying they should fight it there. Mike Pence, the vice president, will be presiding over that chamber.

That endeavor unlikely to succeed. It's almost certain to fail as we've seen the president's lawsuits fail left and right.

But it's almost certain to give the president encouragement to continue fighting the results and continue stoking concerns over the pillar of democracy here, the integrity of the elections.

But the president has some allies here who are urging him to press on, even though the elections are clear that Joe Biden is the winner and those lawsuits continue to fail -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: The quote you have from Jordan, quote, "No, no way, no way, no way." That's what we're getting from conservative members on the House side on Trump. Unbelievable.

Manu Raju, thank you so much for the update there.

The nation's largest school system has opened today for in-person learning in New York City. It is the elementary school students who were personally allowed back in class.

CNN's Bianna Golodryga is live in New York.

Bianna, what's the plan? Are you at a school?

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I am at a school, Brooke. It's empty behind me. But you saw students go back home after they were in school starting two weeks ago.

It's 1.1 million of New York public school students. But they are a significant portion.

Why? Because out of those students who have struggled the most with online and distance learning, it has been the younger students.

Also we know that they don't transmit the virus at the same rate that older people do and older students do.

They've readmitted 190,000 students.

Also today, the mayor said that 3 percent threshold that he had initially put in place in his agreement with the principal's union, with the teachers' union, no longer exists.

That was an arbitrary number they came together with. Now we know there's different data coming out of schools.

Keep in mind, the positivity rate in New York is 4 percent. But when schools closed last week, it was just 4.28 percent. So it tells you schools can be safe havens for students.

They are continuing to wear masks. They're going to be distanced. And they're going to be tested once a week. So they're going to increase testing for these students.

There's no plan on readmitting middle school or high school students as of yet.

But this is such a big move for families. Because as you know, it's not just families with small children. It's families with children of all ages that have struggled to go back to work.

How do I monitor my kids at home and continue work? Especially when they see that bars and gyms are open but the schools are not. This gives them some relief as well.

It helps students also to be back into school. All the data does suggest that.

And as far as going forward, the mayor said he's going to continue to watch the infection rate at schools. If there are infections and positivity rates going up in schools, those schools will be closed.

The biggest news, though, is that the teachers' union is on board with this.

And, Brooke, I have to tell you, as a parent myself, it is such a relief. I will never, ever, ever again take in-person school for granted. I can tell you that.

(LAUGHTER)

[14:59:57]

BALDWIN: I believe you. And I have heard that from many a parent.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: Bianna, thank you. Bianna Golodryga covering the big opening of elementary school in New York City. Thank you.

Thank you for being with me. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

"THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper begins now.