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HHS Advisor Pushed for Herd Immunity: "Must Go On with Life"; What Did Trump Do Today on Pandemic, Stimulus, Hack Attack?; Op-Ed: GOP Senator Is Source of the Real Election Fraud. Aired 1:30-2p ET
Aired December 17, 2020 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:30:00]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: On the home front, Americans have been asked to ration food and other goods, to practice bombing drills, and repurpose their businesses.
The sacrifice asked of Americans in this crisis is to save lives by staying home and wearing a mask when they can't.
And the president and his allies have bastardized that call to action as an unacceptable infringement on personal freedom.
That former HHS advisor, Paul Alexander, by the way, hasn't responded to CNN's requests to comment on his advocacy for herd immunity.
But Department of HHS tells us he was only temporary. And that herd immunity is not the department's policy.
It may not be the official policy of HHS, but it sure was the policy of a lot of officials in the Trump administration, including the president. Of course, the White House has denied that.
Here was the press secretary in September.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Herd immunity, so- called theory, was something made up in the fanciful minds of the media. That was never something that was ever considered here at the White House.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: But it was, by Dr. Scott Atlas, the president's preferred coronavirus adviser, who left the White House after the president lost the election.
Of course, Atlas denied it because herd immunity as a health policy is homicidal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. SCOTT ATLAS, FORMER MEMBER, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE: It is not just a lie, it is an overt lie. It's a disgusting lie and it's a harmful statement to make.
I have never advised the president to push a herd-immunity strategy. I have never told the task force that I advocated a herd-immunity strategy. I've never told anyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: It may be disgusting, but it is not a lie. It's the truth.
There's tape of Dr. Atlas pushing herd immunity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATLAS: We can allow a lot of people to infected, those who are not at risk to die or have serious hospital requiring illness. We should be fine with letting them infected, generating immunity on their own.
And the more immunity in the community, the better we can eradicate the threat of the virus, including the threat to people who are vulnerable. That's what herd immunity is.
(voice-over): When younger, healthier people get the disease, they don't have a problem with the disease. I'm not sure why that's so difficult for everyone to acknowledge.
These people getting the infection is not really a problem. And in fact, as we said months ago, when you isolate everyone, including the healthy people, you're prolonging the problem because you're preventing population immunity.
Low risk groups getting the infection is not a problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: And there's also tape of the man that Atlas advised about this strategy pushing herd immunity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Once you get to a certain number -- you know, we use the word herd. Once you get to a certain number, it is going to go away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: The president and his aides had backup from right-wing media outlets. And their darling was Sweden, which, at the outset of the pandemic, adopted a herd-immunity strategy even as it encouraged masks and social distancing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS HOST, "TUCKER CARLSON TONIGHT": Sweden has never, unlike Governor Whitmer and so many American states, adopted the Chinese model, the authoritarian model to contain coronavirus.
So far, Sweden has fewer cases of coronavirus and fewer deaths than the state of Michigan does. Huh.
Does the governor of Michigan know this? Does she care? No. That suggests it is about science, but it is not.
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST, "THE INGRAHAM ANGLE": Herd immunity will be reached in about two, three weeks perhaps in Sweden, which, I mean, then they're kind of done after the herd immunity, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. We hope so. That's why we shouldn't pay too much attention to comparison of cases and deaths now because almost every other country except Sweden has just postponed deaths.
DR. RAMIN OSKOUI, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Sweden was smart. They didn't -- they quarantined the most vulnerable and let healthiest, least vulnerable individuals, namely children, continue schooling.
That was much better for the educational system and the health of their country and their economy.
ALEX BERENSON, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: They'll not talk about herd immunity. They don't like to use that term. They may have gotten there or close to there because deaths and ICU admissions are very low this month.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: All right. Fast forward to now, when it matters, and Sweden's herd-immunity experiment is over, a failure by their own admission.
Sweden just had its second-deadliest month ever, second only to the worst month of the 1918 flu pandemic. Their hospitals are overflowing.
The Swedish prime minister has admitted that their strategy was a mistake. Quote, "It is proof that it is a virus that we did not know about before and that behaves in a way many would not have thought."
[14:35:07]
Worth noting there in that quote that the preponderance of public health experts warned what could happen to the infection rate in Sweden over time.
The P.M. goes on, understanding the obvious here. Quote, "Some conclusions about where we could have been better have already been drawn."
They have been drawn by a death rate that approaches that in the U.S. even with Sweden's universal health care system and liberal work leave policies.
But FOX championed Sweden as the example to follow. And viewers listened. And they're doing this again right now, telling people to get together for the holidays. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INGRAHAM: Of course, act cautiously. But Christmas is meant to be spent with your family, not isolated in lockdown.
Joining me now is Dr. Scott Atlas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Yes, Scott Atlas, Dr. Scott Atlas. For an entire segment on why it is OK to gather for Christmas.
But when you see Laura Ingraham having on these kinds of guests to espouse the wisdom of ignoring public health guidelines, remember her actions don't match her words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INGRAHAM: Now we're reading stuff about how you can damage yourself by wearing a mask.
ATLAS: Right.
KEILAR: -- because you're breathing back potentially --
(CROSSTALK)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Laura Ingraham mocked the science behind masks, told her viewers they may actually be bad for their health.
Then, she put one on her own face to protect herself at a Trump rally.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I do believe Laura Ingraham is here someplace.
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: Where is Laura. Where is she?
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: Where is Laura?
I can't recognize you. Is that a mask? No way. Are you wearing a mask?
I've never seen her in a mask.
Look at you.
Whoa, she's being very politically correct. Whoa.
(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: Dr. Fauci and health officials are warning people this isn't a normal Christmas. Dr. Redfield, of the CDC, says this will be the worst winter in American health history.
Blood is spilling on American soil. There's still no national strategy. There's still silence from the president about the suffering. And his propaganda arm is telling Americans to deck the halls.
Next, chaos predictably erupts at the Republican hearing on imaginary widespread voter fraud. How one Senator explained the whole thing.
And another world leader struck with COVID. This time, it's the president of France.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:42:27]
KEILAR: We showed you the president's calendar yesterday and how, in the 44 days since the election, he has been missing in action. He's had a limited schedule.
He's been fixated on his conspiracy theories. And the nation is facing several crises all at once.
So what has he done today following the deadliest day of the pandemic?
What has the author of "The Art of the Deal" done to get to a stimulus deal as millions of Americans struggle to find work and feed their families?
What is he doing about the suspected Russian hacking of several U.S. government agencies? This is a massive attack that has revealed significant vulnerabilities that experts warn other foreign actors will emulate.
I want to bring in CNN White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins, to talk about this and also CNN chief political analyst, Gloria Borger.
Kaitlan, what is the president doing today?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Great question. The White House says he is filling his schedule behind the scenes. We're not seeing that.
It is unusual for the president not to hold any public events like this, not to let cameras into the room for the cabinet meeting yesterday. I can think of one occasion where that's happened.
Also, they have not put out any statements with the president's name on it addressing the Russian hack, which we know is still ongoing, according to federal agencies, and they're trying to figure out.
Also as you noted, the president has been completely uninvolved in the stimulus talks happening on Capitol Hill. He hasn't done any kind of Oval address to address the record high of
hospitalizations that we are seeing across the nation.
This is a broader pattern we have seen since Donald Trump lost the election. When you talk to sources, they say he is almost entirely consumed by his election loss.
Then you read, for example, that op-ed from Tom Bossert, his first Homeland Security advisor, in "New York Times" today, and he says he doesn't have much longer left in office, but the president does still need to be governing.
KEILAR: Gloria, what does it mean for the country that the president really, even before the election, has checked out of governing.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, he is MIA. He enjoys the idea of being president more than doing the work of being president.
He hasn't had any intelligence briefings since October. This is remarkable, given the fact we just had a major hack here of the United States government.
He isn't even going out there, aside from one brief appearance at a presser and taking credit for the vaccine or trying to help with public education to get people to get the shots in their arms.
So he isn't doing anything except, I believe, trying to chart his path for the next four years.
[13:45:05]
And if he believes the election was rigged, as he tells us, and that Joe Biden shouldn't be president, why isn't he behaving as if he is still currently president?
He is not doing it because he feels it would hurt him in some way with his base. I mean, he is just on a rampage, obsessing about the election, and that's it.
KEILAR: Gloria, Kaitlan, thank you to you both.
A Republican Senator lashing out at Senate Democrats during a hearing with baseless claims of widespread election fraud. My next guess says Senator Ron Johnson is the source of the real fraud.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:50:11]
KEILAR: Republican election deniers allied with the president put on quite a show at the Senate Homeland Security Committee hearing on voting irregularities yesterday.
Angry lawmakers rubbed salt on their own election loss wounds, spewing baseless claims of voter fraud and disinformation, all led by the GOP committee chairman, Senator Ron Johnson.
Democrats implored their colleagues to stop spreading lies, citing their potentially devastating impact.
One Democrat put it this way:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): There are regular patriotic Americans out there who don't believe that Joe Biden is actually president.
You know why? Because, as patriotic Americans, they've been told to listen to the president of the United States, to listen to U.S. Senators.
And so when the president and U.S. Senators tell them over and over and over again that the election was rigged, they believe it. Not because they're crazy, but because they have faith that people in power will tell them the truth.
It becomes a circular logic in which Republicans say, well, we have to talk about this because everybody thinks the election is rigged. By the way, the election was rigged, everybody.
There's no way out of that sort of block-hole downward spiral if Republicans are willing to stir up conspiracy theories and then claim, because people are listening to them, we, all of a sudden, have to talk about it.
By the way, this also kind of serves some other Republican ends. Republicans want to undermine government in general. They really don't believe the government can solve any problems.
So by undermining elections, making people believe that everybody that gets elected is illegitimate, it makes it hard for government to do anything good for people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Dana Milbank is a political columnist with "The Washington Post." He's with us now.
He wrote an op-ed on this where he said, quote, "We've finally identified the source of fraud in the 2020 election. It's Ron Johnson."
And, Dana, you focused a lot of this column on Ron Johnson. I wonder, we've had heard people say the president almost does believe he believes these conspiracy theories.
I wonder what you think Senator Johnson's motivation, having observed the theater, what it is.
DANA MILBANK, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Think about Ron Johnson. Last month, he had a hearing to say that Hydroxychloroquine cures COVID-19, so we know his state of mind right now. He got in a lot of heat for having this hearing. He's doing exactly
that thing.
He's saying, well, we have a problem here, because 80 percent of Trump voters believe there's fraud in the election.
Well, why do they believe that, Mr. Chairman? It's because you've been telling them they have been.
So all these guys are competing, I think, for the Trump enthusiasts out there, so they're trying to out-Trump Trump, if you will. And they did a fine job of it yesterday.
KEILAR: You focus in your column on what might have been one of the most interesting moments. I think we're seeing Democrats versus Republicans in this environment.
But we got to see Chris Krebs, who was the top intel official when it came to election security that President Trump fired, and we got to see his testimony.
It was in stark contrast from what we saw from other Republicans.
MILBANK: It was, because he was saying, my fellow Republicans. He's saying, I'm one of you. What you are doing is dangerous. You are causing people not to believe the results of this election.
He was saying, you know, that one party is playing by the rules and the other one is not only not playing by the rules but undermining, actively undermining faith in democracy. That's when democracy falls apart.
So it was clear you can't say he's part of some deep-state conspiracy. This guy is a Republican saying you Republicans are causing this problem that you're declaring exists.
KEILAR: You know, I know a lot of Republicans, Dana, who look at some of what they see in that hearing yesterday, and just in general when it comes to conspiracy theories, and they don't agree with it. And they are apoplectic at what they see their party now standing for.
I wonder if you think that -- is there any coming back for this kind of thing for the Republican Party that, like Senator Johnson, has so embraced the conspiracy theories?
MILBANK: Well, there are little bits of hope, Brianna. Mitt Romney is on that committee. He essentially boycotted it. He said I'm not going to participate in that nonsense.
And like Rob Portman, from Ohio, said, OK, let's take this out of politics. Let's have a commission look at how we can do better next time. Fine, there are people like that.
But as long as whoever is running for president in 2024 has to keep the Trump voters on his side, if Trump himself isn't going to be the candidate, there's no way to break free of this. [14:55:02]
As long as Trump exists, this problem exists.
KEILAR: Dana, thank you so much for joining us to discuss your column. It's great to see you.
MILBANK: Thanks, Brianna.
KEILAR: Right now, the FDA is meeting on whether to move forward with what could be the country's second coronavirus vaccine. Why this one could be more accessible.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:07]
KEILAR: It's the top of the hour. I'm Brianna Keilar. I want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world.
