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FDA Panel Recommends Emergency Use Authorization of Moderna Vaccine; Supreme Court Throws out Challenge to Trump Administration's Effort to Exclude Undocumented Immigrants from Census Count; Shutdown Looms as Leaders Struggle to Reach Stimulus Deal. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired December 18, 2020 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Government officials say the surge of cases is overwhelming the system there. They are planning to secure another 160 ICU beds early next month.

Good morning, everyone, I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

It is a big day for this country in the ongoing fight against COVID- 19. This morning, Vice President Mike Pence received Pfizer's coronavirus vaccine live on television so millions of Americans could see this happening, an effort to reduce skepticism and fears.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: And I also believe that history will record that this week was the beginning of the end of the coronavirus pandemic.

Vigilance and the vaccine is our way through.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That is good to hear. Look at some other folks getting the first shot of the vaccine this morning. That's our very own Dr. Sanjay Gupta, he got his shot this morning. President-elect Joe Biden expected to get his next week.

But on the significant day, the leader of this country, President Trump, is nowhere to be seen.

SCIUTTO: Any moment, we could though be getting more good news. The FDA is expected to authorize Moderna's vaccine for emergency use later this hour. The co-founder of Moderna is going to join us to talk about it.

HARLOW: That coming at a time when we need it the most, look at this, hospitalizations from COVID in the country once again at an all-time high, cases and deaths continue to soar and experts are very worried that Christmas gatherings are just going to make these numbers even worse.

SCIUTTO: All right. Joining us now to talk about all this, the good and bad, former FDA Commissioner Dr. Margaret Hamburg. Good morning, Dr. Hamburg, thanks so much for joining us.

DR. MARGARET HAMBURG, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: All right. So, first, the good news. With the expected authorization of the Moderna vaccine, you would now have two approved vaccines in this country. There are already millions of doses of these manufactured that can get out, does this accelerate the timeline on when we could have much of the country, most of the country vaccinated against this?

HAMBURG: It is good news, extraordinary news coming at a time we desperately need this kind of hope and action. I do think FDA will rapidly authorize for emergency use this second vaccine and it will start going out to people.

I don't think it much changes the timelines that we've been talking about. There's another piece of good news though, which is that Johnson & Johnson, which has been developing another vaccine, announced just now that they've completed their enrollment with 45,000 participants and they're likely to be able to have an interim readout of their data by early January. It likely will hold promise too.

So we're looking at more and more action in the vaccine realm, meaning that more and more people will have access to vaccines and that is a really important place to be right now. But these days are dire in terms of what's happening with the disease on the ground, and the kind of actions that are needed now won't be helped by the vaccination.

We need to be doing those public health measures, masking and social distancing and avoiding large gatherings and really, really taking that seriously now so we can actually reap the benefits of the vaccine for as many people as possible in the months to come.

HARLOW: Doctor, the fact that these vaccines have been created in less than a year, when it usually takes 10 to 15 years, that was the average before to create an effective vaccine, does this mRNA technology that both Pfizer and Moderna is based on completely change the game? Meaning should we expect going forward that when we have new viruses that vaccines can be created in a year?

HAMBURG: There are a lot of important vaccine strategies that are under development for COVID and to address other problems but the mRNA vaccine technology is an absolute game changer. It's enormously exciting. It's been studied and talked about for a long time and there have been some development efforts against other pathogens.

But COVID-19 has allowed us to really demonstrate the scientific validity of this approach. And not only will it help us against COVID, but it will give us the vaccine platform that can be, I think, pretty rapidly harnessed against other serious pathogens of concern that exist or might emerge in the future. And it also holds promise for protection and interventions for non-infectious diseases like cancer. [10:00:04]

SCIUTTO: Wow. That's a -- I mean, you often -- you make progress during crisis, right, and this may be one of those cases.

Okay, let's talk about the interim period because there is a long and dark period, sadly, between now and when most of the country is vaccinated here. You heard from Vice President Pence saying, yes, vaccines but we need vigilance to control the expanding outbreak. I wonder, are you seeing it though? Because, as happened so often throughout this, right, you have some states like California taking severe steps and others just largely ignoring this. I mean, is the country doing today what it needs to hem these numbers in?

HAMBURG: The country has to do more. We are seeing our hospitals absolutely overwhelmed by patients now. The cases, the hospitalizations and the deaths have broken records in recent days, this is not the direction that we want to be going.

And we do need, you know, really to get people like Vice President Pence not just talking but modeling what needs to be done to break down some of the politicization of important public health measures, like wearing masks. It's great he got vaccinated. I think that sends a very important signal to many people that are skeptical about the vaccine. Vigilance is important to talk about.

I hope he will really demonstrate, in terms of wearing a mask and telling people in the administration not to host big parties indoors right now, et cetera. But we need to really have leaders at every level, including at the community level, out there talking and modeling behavior and introducing the kinds of measures that make a difference.

SCIUTTO: Well, let's hope so, because, sadly, so much of that information still being politicized. Let's hope that changes. Lives at stake. Dr. Margaret Hamburg, thanks very much.

HAMBURG: Sure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. VALERIE MONTGOMERY RICE, PRESIDENT AND DEAN, MOREHOUSE SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Yes. You're not wincing at all.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Is it in?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's done.

GUPTA: It's done. You are really good.

RICE: Oh, yes, that's good.

GUPTA: Thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anytime.

GUPTA: Do you get thanked a lot for jabbing somebody --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do, actually.

RICE: Yes. I mean, no, seriously.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Especially in the last couple of days.

GUPTA: Thank you very much, Mary Katherine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: He didn't even cry. That was our very own Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent, among many health care workers receiving the coronavirus vaccine. That was live on our air this morning. We should note he also still does brain surgery in Atlanta. He'll take his second shot in about three weeks.

Now to questions among several states after they were told by the government that they would no longer be getting as many doses of the Pfizer vaccine as they were expecting.

HARLOW: Right. Let's go to our Sara Murray, she knows more. Sara, this is just about next week, is that right?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's what we know so far. They are sort of going week-to-week and forecasting what number of vaccines states are going to get. And so they heard from the federal government that their allotments are actually going to be smaller than they initially expected.

And we're hearing this across the country, Washington, Oregon, Illinois and Michigan. It seems to be an issue in a number of places. And there's a little bit of finger pointing going on about what exactly is happening here that's causing these numbers to go down. HHS said in a statement, basically, that they want to make sure that Pfizer has all the doses on-hand that they promised.

Here is a statement. Although Pfizer announced earlier this year it was reducing its global production estimates for 2020 from 100 million doses to 50 million doses, it assures us the United States is on track to receive at least 20 million doses by the end of the December, although we await final confirmation. So, you're seeing a little hedging there coming out of Health and Human Services.

As for Pfizer, they also put out a pretty pointed statement yesterday that included the line, we have millions more doses sitting in our warehouse but as of now we have not received any shipment instructions for additional doses.

So you see everyone here kind of saying, essentially, this is not my fault, the delay is not my fault. The federal government says these doses will be going out, it just might take a little bit longer than expected. And, of course, this is really frustrating for states because they are trying to make sure that they are ready to receive the Pfizer vaccine that needs this ultra cold storage, and we want to get it out, of course, to health care workers and assisted living residents as quickly as possible.

HARLOW: Sara, thank you very much.

All right, we do have breaking news now. Breaking news just in from the high court, a major ruling coming down from the Supreme Court, just deciding on the Trump administration's effort to exclude undocumented immigrants from the census count.

SCIUTTO: Yes, this breaks with a couple centuries practice here. Let's go to CNN Justice Correspondent Jessica Schneider. To be clear here, this means -- I mena, it has enormous implications, right, for counting seats in Congress, that goes forward?

[10:10:05]

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It does. The Supreme Court throwing out this challenge to President Trump's plan where he wanted to exclude undocumented immigrants from being counted when those congressional seats are divvied up in January.

So on its face here, this is a win for the Trump administration because it does wipe away that lower court ruling that declared this policy violated law. The Supreme Court now letting that policy, by the Trump administration, not to include those undocumented immigrants, it lets that policy stand.

But, importantly, this isn't a total win here. The court is only saying that the challenge cannot be brought at this point. But if the census numbers are presented to the president before he leaves office in just about a month, if those numbers don't include undocumented immigrants, then those challengers can make their case to the Supreme Court again but that would be farther down the road.

Now, the issue here that the Supreme Court talked about is that the commerce department, they have to provide census information to the president by the end of the year. But they've already reported, they're actually having difficulty processing the census responses and they think right now that they might not have a key tally until February.

Of course, that's after the president would leave office. And the president typically sends those numbers to Congress to divvy up the congressional seats the first week of January. But if the numbers aren't in, the apportionment either can't happen or they won't be divvying it up depending on the undocumented immigrants here.

So, really, Jim and Poppy, so it's a procedural win for the president but, practically, at this point, all indications are that his policy to exclude these undocumented immigrants from the count, it won't actually be able to take effect because they don't have the numbers here. And that was the hold up with the Supreme Court saying, you can't bring this yet because the policy and the numbers haven't gone into effect. Come back when it does.

But the president here might try to claim a victory because the Supreme Court has wiped away that lower court ruling that invalidated his policy.

SCIUTTO: All right. Jessica Schneider, thank you so much.

So to clear this up, and I'm sure you at home are having as much trouble as we are trying to figure out what the actual effect of this, let's bring University of Texas Law Professor Steve Vladeck.

So, Steve, tell us what this actually means, right? I mean, a procedural win here but with a new president coming in, does that change this? In other words, might the census actually proceed by counting undocumented immigrants, as has been the practice? Explain it to us because I'm confused.

STEVE VLADECK, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. I mean, Jim, it still could. And I think Jessica had this exactly right that it's a procedural victory for the president. What's really messing all of this up is the Trump administration itself being behind the deadline here, that the Census Bureau, the Department of Commerce, they're supposed to have this all wrapped up in the next ten days. And there have been a lot of reports out of the government that they're not going to be able to make it.

That's why this gets so complicated. Because on the one hand, it makes it hard for the challengers in this case to show that this policy is definitely going to be implemented, if they're not even going to make their own deadline. On the other hand, it also makes it easier for the Biden administration to come in in January and perhaps still have the chance to reverse this before the final numbers go to Congress.

So I don't mean to make too much out of this. I think the key is this is not settled by today's decision. A lot still depends upon the timing of when the commerce department finishes its count, when those numbers are submitted to Congress and whether that's before or after inauguration day next month.

HARLOW: Well, the president-elect, Steve, has suggested he would work to reverse President Trump's action on this. So I think we know where his mindset is. But just, really, big picture here, because the president's attorneys claimed or the administration, when they argued this before the justices back in November that Article I, Section II gives any president this power, right? They're not ruling on those merits.

My question is, going forward then, could any president say I do think or I don't think undocumented immigrants should be counted and it matters hugely in terms of funding for states, like California, and their representation in Congress. So that's at the core of it, right?

VLADECK: That's exactly right. And not just in California, here in Texas. I mean, I think Texas stands to be really hurt if undocumented immigrants are excluded from apportionment. I think the key is the majority opinion, which was unsigned, does not express any view on the merits on the challenge but Justice Breyer's dissent does.

So writing for himself and Justices Sotomayor and Kagan, Justice Breyer not just would have decided the case, he would have affirmed the lower court decision that blocked the memo, not because the president, in his view, necessarily lacks the constitutional power to do this but because Congress has barred him from doing it in a statute called the 1929 Apportionment Act.

[10:15:00]

And that Holden guy (ph) has got three votes. It's been accepted by a couple of other lower courts in different challenges to this memo.

So I think the real headline here is exactly how as Jessica put it, it is a procedural win for the president for now but there's still a lot to play for with regard to whether they'll be able to implement this policy at this time, and if so, whether the courts will allow it to go through.

SCIUTTO: Understood.

HARLOW: Thank you, yes, we understand it now and it's really significant. Steve, thank you, and Jessica for her great reporting as well.

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: If they don't act, the government will shutdown tonight at midnight. And, by the way, that stimulus deal seems to maybe be falling apart.

[10:20:01]

Let's go to Manu Raju on Capitol Hill with more.

Really? Are they not going to do anything by tonight, Manu?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's an open question about exactly what gets resolved here. We do know that there are a number of sticking points still in these relief talks. And the reason why this is tied to the possibility of a government shutdown is that the leadership had wanted to tie a COVID relief package to this must pass bill to keep the government open past today.

But there is no deal on the COVID relief package, even though leadership is sounding positive about getting there. We've been hearing that for several days now.

Now, just moments ago, Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader, was on the Senate floor. He said a major rescue package was very close on hand. So he is sounding bullish about the prospect. But even if they were to get a deal together, getting it through Congress and both chambers tonight before that midnight deadline to avert a government shutdown seems unlikely. Nobody has even seen the details of this bill or even the $1.24 trillion spending package that would be attached to it.

So the expectation is that there would have to be a short-term funding bill to keep the government open past tonight, maybe over the weekend into next week. But that also would require cooperation of all 100 senators, bipartisan corporation in the House to get it through quickly. We'll see if that cooperation, it exists. At the moment, it does not.

And what's really holding up this deal at the moment, there are a handful of items. One issue, the Republicans are pushing to constrain the Federal Reserve's emergency lending authority. They do that. Those programs need to be winded down. The Democrats are pushing back. That is one issue on the table. They're still discussing the size of those stimulus checks, about $600 of direct payments, one-time direct payments to individuals under some income thresholds.

So a number of details still needed to be sorted out. And it is a major bill, $900 billion. Can they get there? Big question still when that would happen. Poppy?

HARLOW: Yes, while Americans are counting on them. Manu, thank you for the update.

SCIUTTO: All right. Joining me now is Democratic Senator Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire. She also seats on the Foreign Relations Committee. Senator, thanks so much for taking time this morning.

SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D-NH): Well, nice to be with you.

SCIUTTO: So, first of all, on stimulus, are you headed for a short- term continuing resolution to get to a deal on stimulus?

SHAHEEN: I think that may be necessary because the bill still has to be written. Now, much of it has been written because it's my understanding that much of what they're using is the framework that the bipartisan group of senators, Republican and Democrats, have been working on almost since the election. And we had language. We handed over to leadership. The written language we had consulted with committees and experts in most cases in preparing that language.

So I think a lot of the bill has probably been written, but as you heard, there are still some sticking points that need to be worked out. So I think we may need a short-term extension of government funding in order to make sure that both of the bills are done and that we can pass them. So I'm hoping this weekend, that's what I have been told by a number of my colleagues. And so, hopefully we can get this done.

It absolutely must get done. The American people need it. Small businesses, families, those who are going to lose their unemployment.

SCIUTTO: They need it. In the latest version, is there funding for state and local governments? Because Democrats for months have said without that funding, these states can't pay many frontline workers. Is that in or out of this deal?

SHAHEEN: It's my understanding that that is out of the deal, as is liability language. However, there are a number of areas that hopefully are going to provide real help to state and local governments. So there's significant funding for schools and for higher education. There's funding for distribution of vaccines for testing and contact tracing. There's funding for housing, for food assistance, for so many of the things that many people rely on, communities and states to provide.

SCIUTTO: Understood. Okay.

I want to ask you now about the -- what our understanding is, is an ongoing hack by a state actor, lots of signals point to Russia though it has not been attributed as a Russian attack earlier at this point. You signed on a letter this week demanding that the FBI and cyber security and infrastructure security agency, which in charge of responding to this sort of thing to give more info. I wonder, in your view, is the Trump administration and our agencies in this administration holding back information about this attack?

SHAHEEN: Well, I think we don't know that yet. Unfortunately, they didn't seem to know much about the attack when it surfaced. Knowledge of the attack didn't come from our federal agencies. They came from a private company who alerted federal agencies.

Unfortunately, right now, we also have no one who's heading the cyber security agency at the Department of Homeland Security.

[10:25:05]

That's Chris Krebs, who was fired by Donald Trump when he said that the elections were free and fair. And so we have an acting person there. We need to get to the bottom of this.

Senator Moran is the chair, and I'm the vice chair of the subcommittee on appropriations that has oversight of commerce, justice and science. We know that commerce is one of the departments that was breached in the cyber security hacking.

And so we want answers. I think the American people deserve answers. We want to know how broad this was. We want to know what's been compromised and we want to know how we're going to fix it.

SCIUTTO: Yes. The president still has not -- he's commented on a lot of things via Twitter but he's not commented on this at all. And that's not new with this president, we should note that. He still hasn't commented, for instance, on the poisoning of the Russian opposition leader. Do you believe, given that this attack apparently was under way for months under the Trump administration, that the president, that his administration were asleep at the wheel here?

SHAHEEN: I do. I also think that the president and his failure to hold Vladimir Putin and the Russians accountable for all of the interference they have made in the United States is -- bears some responsibility for this. Russia needs to know that there will be a response when they act out, that the United States is going to hold them accountable and we have not done that in the way that we need to.

And I think the mixed messages that have come from Donald Trump, who has embraced Putin, is part of the problem. SCIUTTO: This morning, before I let you go, this morning the president is praising a new senator from Alabama, Tom Tuberville, who is not -- who has said his mind is open to being the one senator necessary for a floor challenge on January 6th when Congress meets to finally approve the Electoral College votes.

I want to give you a chance here to speak to your Republican colleagues, who even though the Department of Justice, even though the Supreme Court, even though dozens of justices across the courts have dismissed these allegations of election fraud, to those who are still holding out and holding onto this myth, what do you say to them?

SHAHEEN: Each of us who are serving -- Tuberville has been elected but he has not been sworn in. But each of us who are serving as senators took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States. One of the most fundamental principles of the Constitution is the peaceful transition of power.

These senators and members of Congress who have refused to acknowledge that we had a free and fair election, in which Joe Biden beat Donald Trump by over 7 million votes, are bordering on sedition and treason in thinking that they are going to overturn a duly elected president.

I have been to countries with some of those senators who have refused to acknowledge Joe Biden as president, where we work to persuade people after their elections that a change was going to be made because someone else was elected by the people.

We worked on that in Iraq. We worked on it in Afghanistan and Georgia, the country, not the state, and in so many other countries. And it is just unfathomable to me how these elected representatives can be refusing to accept the peaceful transition of power. I think they should be sanctioned.

SCIUTTO: Senator Jeanne Shaheen, strong words. Thanks very much for joining us this morning.

SHAHEEN: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, the governor of the state with the highest rate of COVID-19 infections per capita is blaming his state's surge on its residents not following advice from officials. We're going to take you there, next.

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