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CNN: Trump, Advisers Discussed Invoking Martial Law To Overturn Election Results; CDC Advisory Committee Recommends Americans Ages 75 And Older, Frontline Essential Workers Should Be Next To Get Vaccine; Navalny Speaks Directly To Toxin Team That Tracked Him. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired December 21, 2020 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Screaming matches in the Oval Office, presidential advisors reportedly pushing for martial law to rerun the election, it's really remarkable. Sidney Powell, an attorney who is constantly spread conspiracy theories over the election -- over election fraud was seen at the White House twice this weekend. Also seen at the White House Michael Flynn, the President's former national security adviser, retired general, who promoted during an interview last week that the President should invoke martial law to rerun the election.

All of this came up in the Oval Office according to reporting. The situation around the President is taking such a turn that sources familiar with what happened are now alerting reporters. One of these sources described to CNN's Kevin Liptak and Pamela Brown, an escalating sense of concern among Trump's aides, even those who have weathered his previous conspiracies about what steps he might take next, as his term comes to an end.

Joining me right now is Elizabeth Neumann. She's former assistant secretary for Threat Prevention at the Department of Homeland Security under President Trump. Thank you for coming in. I wanted to get your reaction, great reporting for my colleagues, but also broken by Maggie Haberman, in the New York Times just your reaction to this reporting?

ELIZABETH NEUMANN, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Oh, it's just, it's more of the same and it's hard to be continued to be so outraged at his behavior. But we need to be outraged because it is horrible. It is horrible that at the beacon of democracy, the White House is supposed to be that we have seditious conspiracies being discussed.

And at least it sounds like there are a handful of advisors that are loosely guardrails, I think that they are still there tells you that they have a high tolerance for a lot of shenanigans. But this, even this is too far for them. And at least they are speaking out and pushing back. And hopefully that holds. I don't think the President could actually be successful in carrying out some sort of conspiracy to overthrow the election. But it's just so disheartening that this is happening in our country. It's not what the United States stands for.

BOLDUAN: Look and President Trump is one thing but it's possibly even more disturbing that the person who was the national security adviser to the President, the former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, a retired general, he's -- Michael Flynn, was pushing this saying it publicly, it wasn't even behind closed doors, saying it publicly that he should be deploying the military to rerun the election.

[12:35:23]

NEUMANN: And think of this, but you have good people at the Pentagon coming out and saying, that's not going to happen. I've worked with many in the military. I feel absolutely confident that it is drilled into military men and women that they swore an oath to the Constitution, not to a man, not to even, you know, the branch of government. It is to something so much bigger than whoever sits in the White House from time to time.

So I feel very comfortable that the military men and women of this country will do the right thing if they are asked to do something horrible, as Michael Flint suggests. But you're right, like, how in the world was, I guess, we dodged a bullet, but he was not allowed to be your national security adviser for the preponderance of this administration, what a disaster that would have been. And it's unclear to me whether he, like many around the President just like to spout off conspiracies for the purpose of getting the President's affection and attention or if he actually believes this.

I would hope given his background that he knows what he is suggesting is not only unconstitutional, but just totally against everything that the United States stands for.

BOLDUAN: Look, you're in your specialties in Threat Prevention, Elizabeth. And so I'm curious as to what you think, if there is a long term impact of this kind of, the way I guess I would put it as just like this kind of crazy coming from the White House and from the people around the President because yes, he's no longer going to be president in a month. But the -- what is the impact of these wild meetings, these conspiracy theories, people with big titles, saying these crazy things, when it comes to the people who support the President and believe in what he says?

NEUMANN: I have two primary concerns. So the first is more timely. I think the President entertaining Michael Flynn's suggestion could be a dog whistle to violent extremist groups, who often talk about, hey, if we create enough chaos, then he could use the Insurrection Act as a justification to declaring martial law.

So I am a little concerned that in the next few weeks, if the President continues down this path of talking and hinting at maybe we can do something with martial law, that they will create an environment in which they think he would be justified in declaring martial law. So I'm worried about the potential for violence there. But the longer term effect is probably the thing that is of more concern to most counterterrorism professionals. We have seen a radicalization of the President's base and that does not mean that everybody that has been radicalized would commit acts of violence. It usually is a much smaller percentage that are willing to go and do violent things. But anytime you've expanded that pool of potentially radicalized individuals, it makes it easier for violent extremist groups to recruit them into that darker, more nefarious path of committing an act of violence.

So in, you know, quieter times, even over the summer before we were seeing what we're seeing now, over drinks, you would talk with other counterterrorism professionals and they think what we are experiencing as a country is likely leading to the next 10 to 15 years of counterterrorism problems for our country. It is massive, what has happened. And it will take a long time to resolve, to pull people out of this darkness.

BOLDUAN: On windup. Wow, thank you. Elizabeth, thank you very much.

NEUMANN: Thanks for having me Kate.

[12:39:04]

BOLDUAN: Still ahead for us, firefighters are part of the next group in line to get the coronavirus vaccine. But pulling of New York City's firefighters has shown the majority of them might not want to take it, might not want to get it. I'm going to talk to the president of the New York Firefighters Association, next.

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BOLDUAN: A CDC Committee voted just yesterday that frontline essential workers should be among those next in line to receive a COVID vaccine. That means many people like postal workers, public transit workers, grocery store employees and first responders like police and fire. But the question remains still, will they get the vaccine?

With me right now is Andrew Ansbro. He's the President of the FDNY- Uniformed Firefighters Association. Thank you for coming back in. Critical to speak with you because you shared the results from the survey of firefighters at the beginning of this month and then your survey found that 55 percent of FDNY firefighters who responded said that they would not be getting the vaccine if the Department offered it. Do you think that their views on this are changing, Andrew, now that this is a real thing, the vaccines are out there?

ANDREW ANSBRO, PRESIDENT, FDNY-UNIFORMED FIREFIGHTERS ASSOCIATION: I'd like to think so. In the very beginning when this vaccine came out, there wasn't a lot of information available. And I think as the information comes out that proves that it's safe and expresses that there really isn't much to be worried about then I think more and more members will have to get it.

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BOLDUAN: I have to say though, so many people told me that when they -- it really scared them and concern them when they saw that survey result that 55 percent of, you know, New York's bravest, there were saying that they didn't, that they weren't comfortable getting the COVID vaccine. And you look back, and you know the threat and risk to them. A study published just last month found that in the first wave in the spring, firefighters and EMTs in New York are 15 times more likely to be infected than the general population. What is it that you're hearing amongst members? What don't they trust? What is their concern?

ANSBRO: Well, I wouldn't call it a trust issue so much as that my members have gotten very familiar with COVID about a third of them have already have it. We currently have 5 percent of the Department outright now with COVID. The Fire Department has been very fortunate and that we haven't had many serious cases, we have had members hospitalized. But the average member of the Department that has gotten this had very mild symptoms.

So they become more comfortable with COVID. And a lot of the members, they just feel that they're not really, it's not necessary for them to get to the front of line if and when they need -- they decide personally to take it, they'll eventually get it. But they'll always be some people that don't get it. But I feel our numbers are basically the same as everyone else in the country.

BOLDUAN: That's a good point. You, yourself have said that you were going to you're going to be getting it, yes?

ANSBRO: Absolutely.

BOLDUAN: And what's --

ANSBRO: I have no issues with taking it.

BOLDUAN: Yes. What are your conversations with them? I mean, do you do you see yourself as needing to kind of put forth an effort to, I'm sure you'd like to see more of them get it to protect themselves?

ANSBRO: Well, my efforts been more of an educational issue. My members have to make this decision for themselves. And I'll back their decision either way. I'm just hoping they look objectively at the material that's given to them. And that they decide to get. If they don't decide to get it, that's really up to them. We sign up for a lot -- we sign up for a lot of things we've joined the Fire Department, getting experimental medicine is not one of them.

BOLDUAN: But you will be getting in line for that vaccine, which --

ANSBRO: Absolutely.

BOLDUAN: -- which you're hoping that others, others will do as well. Thank you so much, Andrew, really appreciate it.

Coming up next for us --

ANSBRO: You're welcome.

BOLDUAN: -- CNN exclusive, how Alexei Navalny was able to dope a Russian agent into revealing how Navalny was poisoned and almost killed.

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[12:50:59]

BOLDUAN: A Russian agent sent to tail opposition leader Alexei Navalny has accidentally revealed how Navalny was poisoned in August. The agent a member of an elite toxins team in Russia and Russia's FSB Security Service says the lethal nerve agent, Novichok, was planted in Navalny underwear. Yes. Last week a CNN Bellingcat investigation revealed that the unit had trailed Navalny for more than three years. This is all part of CNN's Clarissa Ward and her team's really unbelievable reporting. She's joining me back with us now with this new reporting. Clarissa, this is unbelievable. Can you tell us how this happened? How did this information come out?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's one of those stories that like if you saw it in a movie, you'd be like, this is unrealistic. And yet here we are reporting on it and it is very true. Essentially what happened is Alexei Navalny, the Russian opposition leader, who was poisoned with Novichok back in August, nearly killing him, decided to try to call one of the FSB operatives, who we revealed in our reporting last week was part of an elite team with expertise in chemical weapons trailing him for many years.

And what Navalny did essentially was to pretend that he was a high ranking member of the National Security Council, and that he was carrying out an investigation into how the poisoning operation had gone. And shockingly, after just a little while, this operative, whose name is Konstantin Kudryavtsev, acquiesced and started talking about details of the operation, starting out with perhaps the most stunning detail, which is how the Novichok was planted, or how exactly Navalny was poisoned. He talks about it being planted in the underwear, take a listen.

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ALEXEI NAVALNY, RUSSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER (through translator): What item of clothing was the emphasis on? The most risky piece of clothing, which one is that?

KONSTANTIN KUDRYAVTSEV, FSB AGENT (through translator): Underpants.

NAVALNY (through translator): Underpants. Risky in what sense? Well, in terms of where the most concentration would be.

KUDRYAVTSEV (through translator): Well, underpants.

NAVALNY (through translator): Was it the inside scene, the outside scene? What was it adjacent to? I have a whole block of questions on this here. I will discuss all of this with Makshakov, but I also need your information.

KUDRYAVTSEV (through translator): Well, we applied to the internal one. Well, at least there was application.

NAVALNY (through translator): Well imagine underpants, and in what place?

KUDRYAVTSEV (through translator): The insides, the groin.

NAVALNY (through translator): The crotch of the underpants.

KUDRYAVTSEV (through translator): Well, the so called flap, there seams there, so across the seams.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WARD: So you can see the level of detail there about where in Navalny's underpass the poison was placed. Kudryavtsev also talked about his role in the cleanup operation, saying that he flew to the city of Omsk Square, Navalny's plane was diverted to when he first got sick, and took Navalny's clothes and ensure that they were scrubbed clean, that there would be no traces of Novichok left.

He made a secondary trip as well with another chemical weapons expert to make sure those clothes were clean. And I think lastly, and perhaps most chillingly, Kate, he talks also about why Navalny didn't die. He says that it was probably because the plane was diverted. So he wasn't on the flight for as long. He says also the fact that the ambulance, the medics on the tarmac had atrophy in this life saving antidote would have played a factor. But still, he seems surprised because in his words, as he said, we added a bit extra, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Unbelievable. I mean, and this also seems to rip apart what Vladimir Putin himself has said in terms of a quasi-denial about this whole thing.

WARD: So last week, President Putin at his annual presser was pushed to answer questions about our investigation. He said, hey, listen, the FSB was probably trailing Navalny. That's not a big deal because Navalny works with U.S. Intelligence Services, but that doesn't mean the poisoned him. Well, now here we are, Kate, with definitive evidence, frankly, that they were involved in this poisoning. And the question is, how can they possibly obfuscate? How will they possibly respond to this?

[12:55:12]

Of course, we've reached out to the Kremlin, we've reached out to Kudryavtsev, we reached out to Makshakov, the other operative who's mentioned in that audio recording. You heard so far, no responses, but I think people are going to keep holding their feet to the fire until we learn more.

BOLDUAN: Days and days it took for an initial response. I don't actually understand how they could even have a response to this, Clarissa. I mean, it is from the mouth of the agent that you've been able to get. How to -- it's just really remarkable, great reporting. Thank you for bringing it.

Coming up still, for us --

WARD: Thank you. BOLDUAN: -- the U.S. is set to begin giving shots of the newly authorized Moderna vaccine, as the United States becomes the first in the world to offer two vaccine options.

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