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FBI Now Taking The Lead In The Nashville Blast Investigation; Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA) Is Interviewed About COVID Relief; Trump Wields Pardon Power As Political Weapon. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired December 25, 2020 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: And those resources, the scope of that manpower, the muscle memory they have from doing this and so many other times, that really doesn't exist in the same way in any other entity.

Having a federal agency leading the investigation also gives you all of the legal framework and legal authorities that are really necessary in a complicated terrorism investigation like this. It opens up the door to federal prosecutions once people are identified and those cases are built. It also gives access to incredibly powerful intelligence resources that the FBI and its other intelligence agencies have access to.

AMARA WALKER, CNN HOST: Did you just say terrorism investigation? I just want to clarify that.

MCCABE: I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

WALKER: Did you say that this may be leaning towards a terrorism investigation, Andrew?

MCCABE: Amara, I would expect that the FBI is treating this presumptively as an act of terrorism, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is an act of international terrorism or domestic terrorism. Those two, those two possibilities are still looming out there. We really have to know more about the people behind it before you could make that sort of determination.

But anytime you have the intentional detonation of a massive explosive device like this, you begin working that issue as a terrorist problem.

WALKER: So Andrew, tell us more about what's going into this investigation and with this manpower that you were talking about, at the federal level. How soon before you think authorities will be able to identify a suspect? I mean, are they going and poring through surveillance videos right now?

MCCABE: That's absolutely one of the many things they're doing right now. So I am quite sure that they are marshaling resources from across multiple field offices and of course, headquarters, folks as well. They are once that crime scene is determined to be safe and clear of any other devices, you'll see it flooded with evidence collection, specialists, and all of the equipment they use.

So that as soon as you find a piece of this device, you've -- you'll have an important thread to pull to ultimately, we hope, take them back to identifying a person who may have been involved. At the same time, there'll be downloading that private security, you know, cameras in the area, they'll collect all of that video feed and analyze every second of it. They'll be looking at the R.V.

You know, vehicles can be identified, they have license plates, they have serial numbers on their engines and other parts. So they'll be looking closely at who's the last owner of that vehicle, where are those people now. There's all sorts of really good leads that they have to work with here.

WALKER: I found it interesting, Andrew. A couple of hours ago, you were mentioning the significance of this R.V. being used. Can you talk more about that?

MCCABE: Sure. So we've seen this in many incidents in the past, many attacks. And probably the best one, the easiest to remember is Timothy McVeigh's attack on the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. McVeigh's built a large explosive device in the back of a Ryder truck. It gives you both the ability to construct that device in a way that doesn't attract too much of attention -- too much attention, it's private.

And it gives you a vehicle that enables you to deliver the device to any place you want to take it at the time that you're looking for. Certainly, those possibilities are being considered here with the use of the R.V. It's large. It could carry probably a pretty good sized payload. You could be very kind of covert in your efforts around constructing it. And then the bombers are able to just drive that R.V. up to the site where they want to use it.

WALKER: Just quickly, because we do have to go. I wanted to ask you your thoughts about the timing or the timeline of this, Andrew, that the R.V. exploded as the bomb squad was responding to the scene. Do you see this as a ploy or a plan to have drawn in law enforcement?

MCCABE: Well, there are two things, I think that indicate that. First, the phone call to 911, which very likely was a ruse call, shots fired. That's a sort of report that is guaranteed to provoke a large law enforcement response. So that brings our law enforcement folks into the area and then of course, the detonation of the device as they're arriving.

So we don't know obviously, what the motivation was here. But those are two facts that points strongly to the possibility that these bombers were trying to impact or attack our first responders.

WALKER: Andrew McCabe, we appreciate your expertise on this. Thank you so much for joining us.

MCCABE: Thank you Amara. WALKER: I do want to mention, there was a man by the name of Buck McCoy who lives in the area. And he told CNN when this explosion happened it was, quote, like a movie. It really felt like the end of times.

[12:35:11]

Still ahead, we will continue to follow the breaking news in Nashville. We're just getting word that President Trump who is in Florida has been briefed about the explosion. We're going to be live in West Palm Beach, next.

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WALKER: We continue to follow the breaking news out of Nashville, Tennessee. A massive explosion rocked the city's downtown this morning just at around 6:30.

[12:40:09]

Police are calling it an intentional act. At least three people have been hurt with nonlife threatening injuries. And we just learned the FBI is now taking over the investigation to provide more resources. We expect a news briefing from police just minutes from now and we do plan on bringing that to you live.

In the meantime, President Trump has been briefed on this explosion CNN's Jeremy Diamond is in West Palm Beach. And Jeremy, are you hearing anything from the White House on this?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we just have this one statement from the White House's Deputy Press Secretary, Judd Deere, who confirms that President Trump has indeed been briefed on this explosion in Nashville. Now the president has been on his golf course this morning. And he is still there as of now.

But this statement from Judd Deere says that President Trump, excuse me, just slipped away from my phone. President Trump has been briefed on the explosion in Nashville, Tennessee, and will continue to receive regular updates. Judd Deere also says the president is grateful for the incredible first responders and praying for those who were injured.

That is all we have from the White House as of now. Clearly the law enforcement officials in Nashville are still investigating the situation. And details on the motivations and the circumstances of this explosion are still quite thin. But I expect as those details continue to roll in, perhaps, we will get more reaction from the President or his team.

WALKER: And, Jeremy, we've been saying all afternoon that there are some serious deadlines that are looming for the President as he moves over whether or not to sign the COVID relief bill. Millions of Americans are concerned about, you know, their economic future that they're, you know, just days from now. What's the latest on his thinking on that? DIAMOND: Yes, no doubt we are in an incredibly precarious season on this Christmas 2020. More than 20 million Americans are currently unemployed. Eight million Americans have slipped into poverty since this summer alone. And so as many of us are celebrating Christmas today, there are also many who are not able to do so and who are struggling financially.

And so that is why this $900 billion coronavirus relief package that Congress actually passed earlier this week is incredibly needed. And yet the President of the United States threatened to torpedo that legislation just days ago, despite being completely uninvolved in the negotiations leading up to it making a series of demands. But he hasn't actually been involved in trying to get those demands into this legislation.

He hasn't been on the phone, with lawmakers on Capitol Hill meeting with his advisors to try and work something out. We do know that this legislation was actually flown down to Palm Beach. And an official familiar with the matter is confirming to us that that piece of legislation is now at Mar-a-Lago awaiting the President's signature.

But so far, we don't have an indication of whether the President intends to actually sign this piece of legislation or perhaps whether he will veto it as the President suggested. There's a third option, of course, which is the President could simply do nothing at all. And eventually that legislation will become law without the President's signature.

But that would delay relief for millions of Americans even just tomorrow, delaying another day would allow those supplemental unemployment benefits, those federal unemployment benefits for millions of Americans, those expire tomorrow. So the President needs to sign this legislation if that program is to continue to avoid any kind of lapse in those benefits.

WALKER: I can only imagine so many people on edge unsure whether or not President Trump will sign this bill. Jeremy Diamond, thank you very much live for us there in West Palm Beach, Florida.

Joining me now to talk more about this is Democratic Congressman Brad Sherman. He's a member of the House Foreign Affairs and Financial Services Committee.

Congressman, thank you so much for joining me. We were just talking about this, people face losing their unemployment benefits this weekend and the government could shut down on Monday at midnight. It's now in the hands of the president. What happens -- what are the real life consequences if he does not sign this bill?

REP. BRAD SHERMAN (D-CA): Well, as you pointed out, if he doesn't sign the bill quickly, people will lose their unemployment benefits that they - that is critical and Merry Christmas to everybody, but I can't think of a worse way to greet Christmas than to fail to sign the bill.

If the president fails to sign the bill, normally it would become law after 10 days, but because Congress will return (ph) within 10 days, not counting Sundays, the -- he has a pocket veto. So he can veto the bill and we might override or he simply could refuse to sign the bill.

The government funding shuts down at the end of Monday. So my guess is that if he doesn't sign the bill in the next couple of days that we will pass another continuing resolution, keeping the government on automatic pilot.

But that would be a tragedy to people who are relying on eviction moratoriums, unemployment insurance, and so many other things in this COVID bill we need, including money for vaccine distribution.

[12:45:11]

WALKER: I do want to talk about the eviction moratoriums in just a second. I just wanted to follow up. Let's say, let's be optimistic, President Trump signs the bill today, millions of Americans will -- it'll be days or weeks before they get to see the economic relief they need, correct?

SHERMAN: Well, the -- every state has a different unemployment insurance mechanism and bureaucracy. If he were to sign the bill today, I think there'd be only a short term disruption in people getting their extra, in this case, $300 -- it has been $600, but $300 a week of unemployment benefits.

And I think that the stimulus checks, smaller than any of us would like, would be going out in the next few weeks. So, if he signs the bill today, that would be the best Christmas present of all.

WALKER: And back to the eviction moratoriums, you tweeted about this, about the importance of the eviction protections inside this relief package. What does this limbo mean for that benefit and for what so many people are counting on right now?

SHERMAN: Well, the first day of next year is an end to eviction moratoriums and a chance for landlords to evict their tenants if -- if the president doesn't sign this bill, as far as federal law. In California there are other eviction moratoriums that will protect people.

But if we can get a one month extension on the eviction moratorium, then when we get a new president on January 20th, he can use executive power to extend that eviction moratorium through the end of this COVID crisis.

So one month is a lot longer than it sounds, because (inaudible) the Biden administration.

WALKER: And you were mentioning, Congressman, the $600 stimulus checks are not enough. The House is set to vote on expanding those relief checks to $2,000. Do you all have enough Republican support to pass it?

SHERMAN: I don't think there would be support in the Senate to pass it. And I think -- but it's certainly a good step. I think there are a number of things we could have done to save some money in this bill and things we can look at again, particularly on the tax side, because I'm a bit worried on the deficit.

But frankly, that $600 is not enough. So whether it's $600 now, maybe more in two or three months, or whether it's $2,000 now, American families need more help.

WALKER: They sure do. Congressman Brad Sherman, happy holidays to you and Merry Christmas. Thank you so much for joining me.

SHERMAN: Merry Christmas.

WALKER: Coming up. It's a presidential power granted by the Constitution. But one senator says after Trump's pardons, it may be time to take that privilege away. A white house historian weighs in next.

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[12:51:24]

WALKER: With just weeks left in office, President Trump is using his presidential powers as a political weapon issuing a wave of pardons this week, rewarding friends and loyalists, convicted criminals like Roger Stone, Paul Manafort, George Papadopoulos, and even his son in law's father Charles Kushner. Pardons so brazenly self-serving, they have at least one U.S. senator calling for the presidential power of the pardon to be eliminated altogether.

Democratic Senator Chris Murphy tweeting once one party allows the pardon power to become a tool of criminal enterprise its danger to democracy outweighs its utility as an instrument of justice. It is time to remove the pardon power from the Constitution.

Joining me now to discuss is Tim Naftali, CNN presidential historian and former director of the Nixon Presidential Library. I will get your reaction to that tweet from Senator Chris Murphy. But first, could you talk a little bit about President Trump's pardons how the process that he is employing and the people, or lack thereof, and the people that he's employing how different it is from his predecessors?

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, ordinarily, pardons are suggested to the President, pardons will require any form of clemency are suggested to the President by his Justice Department. These pardons are the result of a process that involves people petitioning for pardons. And this goes through the Justice Department and then the Justice Department weighs in on whether or not the pardon fits the President, of the use of a presidential pardon. President Trump's pardons, as we've seen, do not reflect the product of any process. They are a product of his whim.

WALKER: I want to read you something, Tim, that George Mason, one of the framers of the Constitution said in 1788, when they were debating the powers of the presidential pardon and he almost essentially predicted and feared the pardons of the likes of Paul Manafort and Roger Stone. He said, the President ought not to have the power of pardoning because he may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself. It may happen at some future day that he will establish a monarchy and destroy the republic if he has the power of granting pardons before indictment or conviction may he not stop inquiry and prevent detection. The case of treason ought to at least be expected accepted.

And here we are in 2020, with the President using this political power as a political weapon. First off, what were the framers intent, what was the framers intent with the presidential pardon?

NAFTALI: Well, they wanted the pardon to be an opportunity for our chief executive to show mercy and to correct errors made by our justice system. They drew upon the experience in English common law of the Royal prerogative. They also talked about the need for using pardons at times to heal the country in moments of great political controversy.

Mason, George Mason was not the only founder or framer who had concerns about this sort of blanket power that the Constitution gives the president. There are others that said maybe the Senate should participate in any, in the granting of any pardon link to treason. But in the end, the framers decided that they could trust us, the American people, not to put corrupt men in office.

[12:55:03]

And if we were wrong if we made a mistake, they trusted Congress to remove the president through impeachment.

WALKER: We have 30 seconds knowing that there are a few limits on the presidential power to issue pardons should this be eliminated, the Constitution be overhauled?

NAFTALI: No. Oh that in the Constitution should be amended. I would recommend three changes, no self pardons, no pardons for members of your family, and no pardons by any president after Election Day. I think that would clear up the issue without eliminating the good things that a good president can do with a party. Merry Christmas to all.

WALKER: Merry Christmas to you, Tim Naftali. Thank you so much for joining me and thank you for being with us.

Still ahead, we're following breaking news out of Nashville. The FBI has now taken over the investigation into an explosion and police are calling intentional. Officials are briefing the public in just minutes. We will take you there live.

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