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Twelve-Million-Plus Will Lose Unemployment Benefits If Trump Doesn't Sign Relief Bill; Investigators Say Nashville Blast Likely A Suicide Bombing; Interview With Rep. Denver Riggleman (R-VA); Faster- Spreading COVID-19 Variant Originated In The U.K., Now Appearing In Other Countries; Trump's Controversial Pardons List Expected To Grow; Iconic Chicago Deli Innovates Ways To Survive Amid Uncertainty; European Union Hopes To Start Vaccinations This Weekend. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired December 26, 2020 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:32]
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
DANA BASH, CNN HOST: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM, I'm Danna Bash in Washington.
We begin with breaking news out of Nashville where authorities now believe the massive Christmas morning explosion was likely a result of a suicide bombing. That's according to two law enforcement sources with direct knowledge of the investigation.
At least three people were injured and dozens of buildings were damaged when an R.V. blew up in the early morning hours, and this new video just in to CNN shows that same R.V. at home in Antioch, Tennessee, where law enforcement is now present and we're going to take you there live in a moment.
But first, I want to get straight to CNN crime and justice correspondent, Shimon Prokupecz, who is on the scene in Nashville for us.
So Shimon, this is your reporting along with our colleague, Evan Perez, what can you tell us about what your sources are telling you? And also how the fact that the suicide bombing seems to be the situation -- how that changes the investigation?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, certainly for investigators, they now know that they're not looking for anyone in connection with the bombing. That is a relief for all. That is a relief for people who live here in Nashville. There's no urgency in this investigation. So that changes a lot of things for investigators because they can really focus on the motivation here and that is something that they're really trying to still figure out.
And what we've talked to our sources, both a colleague, Evan Perez, and I, and the theory here now is that this was a suicide bombing. But they don't know why yet, or at least they're not telling us why they think this person carried out this attack. And in this way, with so much destruction, the power of this bomb, to
destroy so much property, to damage some 40 buildings in this area. So they've got to go back now, the investigators and specifically the F.B.I., which is leading this investigation, Dana. And what we heard from the head of the F.B.I. here in Tennessee, actually from Memphis say that they're going to use their analysts and psychologists from the Behavioral Sciences Unit of the F.B.I. to try and build a profile of this individual.
There is a lot they know about this individual. There's a lot they're not obviously telling us because they're trying to figure it out, but when you think about this, this happened some 20 -- over 24 hours ago, but within hours, I would say by the evening, last night, the F.B.I. and the police here had some idea who perhaps was behind this because of that R.V., that photo and video of the R.V. that they were able to capture on surveillance camera and putting that out, led to several tips.
Some 500 tips came to the F.B.I., and it is this R.V. The tips on the R.V. that ultimately likely led F.B.I. to some of the locations that they've searched and a lot of information -- Dana.
BASH: Shimon, excellent reporting, as always, thank you. We'll be back to you through the evening.
And now I want to go to CNN's Natasha Chen, who is outside the house that investigators have connected to the explosion. Natasha, what are you learning there?
NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Dana, well, the investigators just left this scene not more than 15 minutes ago, but we have been here about three hours, the entire time they were working here and from what we understand from neighbors, there were people here working at this property pretty much all day.
From what we saw, the F.B.I. actually told us that this was court authorized activity happening at this property. And first, we saw bomb technicians really clear this property, make sure it was safe to enter.
And then an evidence team came in and spent several hours going through the property, documenting things, photographing things. I know it's dark, it is a little bit difficult to see, but right behind me is a fence right here and they did go inside the fenced area where there's a yard in and out of the entrance to the side there.
And so they spent a lot of time meticulously going through whatever they could find inside the house. First, as we understand, photographing and documenting things in their place inside the home and then taking out bags of evidence throughout the afternoon.
So from talking to neighbors speaking of that R.V. that Shimon was discussing, a lot of them told me that yes, they did see an R.V. parked right here on the property. Some of them say they saw it over the summer. Some say that they saw it within the last few weeks.
[18:05:11]
CHEN: One neighbor said, however, that it was not parked here in the last few days and when we showed them a Google Street view of this property with the R.V. there, they recognized that as the same one, and as Shimon was discussing, law enforcement officials believe that this could be connected, but it's hard to make a hundred percent accurate connection with the R.V. parked downtown because of course that one was so severely destroyed in the explosion -- Dana.
BASH: Natasha Chen, thank you so much for that reporting. And joining me now is Andrew McCabe. He is a senior CNN law enforcement analyst and of course, former Deputy Director of the F.B.I.
Andrew, thank you so much for joining me on this Christmas weekend. Appreciate it. You just heard those two reports from Shimon and Natasha, take me inside what would be an F.B.I. investigation? What does that reporting tell you about where the investigation is heading?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: So Dana, it tells us what we thought about this time yesterday, which was that the vehicle, the R.V. would be pretty easy to identify with all the cameras that are clearly on that block, and once they had that R.V. identified, it would take them very quickly to an individual. It seems that that's the point that they're at now.
Now, the fact that they were at this residence all day on what they've referred to somewhat euphemistically as court authorized activity, that means a search warrant, and of course, a search warrant requires an affidavit filing before the judge -- before -- the judge will read the affidavit and grants the search warrant, based upon the facts that the agents state in the affidavit, which means that they have reason to believe that someone connected with this attack, likely the perpetrator comes back to that residence and they have a fair, you know, facts indicating that the person who lives in that residence is involved in this bombing.
The fact that they are there executing the search warrant in plain sight also indicates to me that they're pretty confident that the person they're looking for is not going to be coming back to that residence, certainly not while they're there.
So all of those things put together could lead us to assume that the F.B.I. currently thinks that the bomber, or the person from that residence who was involved in this attack, and that person is likely no longer with us.
BASH: And you heard Shimon talking about the fact that the F.B.I. knows quite a bit about this individual even before going into the into his house. You know, it's 2020. So a lot of information online, even to the public, and I'm sure accessible, even more so to the F.B.I.
So talk about that, about what information -- what kinds of information you think they are trying to find about this individual who allegedly was behind this suicide -- this apparent suicide bombing. MCCABE: Of course. So once you have a person, you then begin to
construct a narrative of their life, we refer to it as a timeline, but it is essentially trying to rebuild everything about them, everything they did, everyone they talked to, every place they went in the hours before the attack and the days before that, the weeks and months and years leading up to the attack.
And by painstakingly recreating that person's history, by searching their residence and looking at pieces of physical evidence that were -- that they were living with, by looking at their social media presence if they had one, by looking at the browser history on any computers or laptops or cell phone -- you know, cell phones that they might have had, by looking at things that were in their residence that they may have read or books they checked out of the library or magazines they subscribe to, all those sorts of things.
They are looking to know as much about that person and everyone they interacted with because your primary concern, even at this point in the investigation, you feel like you have someone identified is was there anyone else working with them? Was there someone who gave them money, assistance? Someone who helped the plan for it? Trained to build this device? And could there be a follow-on attack?
And I have to say, the F.B.I. has been very clear that they do not believe that there is any ongoing threat. That also is an indicator of high confidence that they are locked on to the person they think is responsible.
BASH: Yes. And that's what I was going to ask. I mean, there's no sign -- no outward sign of any manhunt according to law enforcement sources, that's not really happening. So that suggests that they believe at least right now that this was a one-off and not necessarily connected to, you know, another individual or individuals or organization.
[18:10:09]
MCCABE: You know, there's been no indication from them that they're looking for, you know, a group of people or another person. But I can tell you from my experience of investigating many of these sorts of attacks, that's the thing that's in the back of your mind.
You want to, for tactical reasons, you want to know if there's anyone else out there that you need to be worried about. And also for reasons of justice, you want to make sure that anyone else who might have known about this or assisted it anyway, is roped into your case and held accountable for their involvement in this incredibly dangerous activity.
BASH: So fascinating. Thank you so much for your expertise and we're going to get back to you later to talk about a whole different issue of pardons, so stick around. Thank you so much, Andrew McCabe.
And when we come back, millions of Americans are at risk of losing benefits after the $900 billion Coronavirus Relief Bill -- it is a major roadblock and that roadblock is President Trump. More ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BASH: On this Saturday night, one day after Christmas, at least 12 million struggling Americans are just hours away from a new COVID disaster. They're about to lose unemployment benefits, a $600.00 direct payment and eviction protection because President Trump is refusing to sign the $900 billion bipartisan stimulus bill that the President's own team helped craft.
Among those now urging President Trump to take action before it is too late is the man who is just weeks away from replacing him, President- elect Joe Biden.
Meanwhile, funding for the U.S. government is set to expire at midnight Monday and while all of this is happening, the President is on vacation in Florida.
CNN's Jeremy Diamond is traveling with the President in West Palm Beach, Florida. Jeremy, thank you so much for joining me. So what are you hearing from your sources about what the President is doing and what he is going to do about this legislation?
[18:15:10]
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Dana, we don't have official word yet as to whether or not the President will sign this legislation, veto it or perhaps simply just delay here and allow this to eventually become law.
But what you are seeing from the President is he is taking to Twitter to continue to criticize Republican members of the Senate over not fighting hard enough for him in this election and he is continuing to object to the fact that this Coronavirus Relief Bill has the $600.00 payments instead of the $2,000.00 that he is requesting.
He took to Twitter to say this. He said, quote, "I simply want to get our great people $2,000.00 rather than the measly $600.00 that is now in the bill. Also stop the billions of dollars in pork."
Now, the President if this is true, that this is all he wants to do, he simply wants to increase the payments, then you should have gotten involved before this legislation passed. The President only objected to this and made clear that he wouldn't -- that he might not sign this piece of legislation after it passed Congress by an overwhelming bipartisan majority, with the endorsement of his own administration and the involvement of his Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin.
The President himself though, was personally off the sidelines and now the fallout from this could be putting tens of millions of Americans deeper into financial insecurity.
One of the reasons for that if the President does not sign this legislation tonight, about 12 million Americans will lose on supplemental unemployment benefits this very weekend. That includes those $600.00, -- those $300.00 Federal boost to the unemployment funds that Americans already get. And you've got several other key dates coming up. On Tuesday, if the
president doesn't sign the legislation by then, we will face a government shutdown amidst this coronavirus pandemic, and the economic crisis that so many Americans are feeling all too dearly.
And then by the end of the year, you have that eviction moratorium, which also expires. So again, the President here, suggesting that he wants to help Americans, but really by not signing this legislation, he is at best delaying the aid to actually get to them and at worst, preventing it from reaching them all together -- Dana.
BASH: Jeremy, thank you so much. He said, the end of the year, which is next week, obviously, the time is ticking, to say the least. Thank you so much.
And now I want to bring in Republican Congressman Denver Riggleman of Virginia. He is the author of "Big Foot, It's Complicated: A Congressman and Former Intelligence Officer Explores the Politics of True Believers."
Congressman, thank you so much for joining me, especially on this Holiday weekend. As you know, President Trump blindsided Republicans, you're one of them, Democrats, too, suddenly reluctant to sign the bill, as Jeremy was just reporting on and we've seen for the last few days, even though his top aides helped make it happen, never mind his colleagues and allies in Congress. What do you think is going on here?
REP. DENVER RIGGLEMAN (R-VA): Well, I think -- actually, thanks for having me on, Dana. I think you need to be involved in your own negotiations.
I think when you're too busy tweeting conspiracy theories or things like Stop the Steal, or supporting just ridiculous notions from people who are asking for martial law, you're not involved in your own negotiations with your own leadership.
The reason to blindside everybody, because they thought the President was involved, and it is obvious he was sleeping on the job when it came to these negotiations.
And, you know, the fact is, you know, a lot of people combine these two, Dana. When you look at the Appropriations Bill, you look at the COVID Relief Bill, those are separate. You look at the NDAA, which we have to talk about here soon.
But when you look at the COVID Bill and appropriations, he should have been paying attention and that's what happens when you get too wrapped up in trying to win an election you already lost.
BASH: And so let's talk about what next? Democrats in the House and the Senate in particular, but the Democrats in the House are saying, okay, Mr. President, you want $2,000.00 checks, so do we. We're going to have a vote on Monday. What do you think you and your fellow Republicans will do in that situation?
RIGGLEMAN: I think you're going to see a lot of Republicans that support the larger payment. I thought initially, we'd get the $1,200.00 per person like we had originally. I expected the $300.00 unemployment insurance.
I'm okay with the $2,000.00 per person. That just was never on the table during negotiations. It wasn't something we discussed. I honestly thought it was going to be $1,200.00. I think you're going to see a lot of Republicans that support the $2,000.00 per person stimulus check.
BASH: But just to be clear, so our viewers understand, you're saying that now and you might have voted for it, but part of the reason it wasn't in there is because a lot of your fellow Republicans did not support that big of a check.
RIGGLEMAN: No, some did not. I thought the $1,200.00 would be right where we fell. Some don't support the $2,000.00. But again, Dana, we never discussed $2,000.00 per person until we heard it after the fact.
And, you know, that's the thing that sort of gets, I would say, under the skin of Republicans who aren't involved in negotiations. That's about 90 percent of us.
You know, we think that we're hearing one thing through talking points or through messaging or we are hearing things through our official e- mail on where we're going and how negotiations are going.
And then right after we vote for something that's bipartisan, we get blindsided, and that again, that just goes with President Trump, I think putting his finger in the air looking at the winds, seeing which way the political winds are blowing, or he is just not paying attention, which seems to be the case.
[18:20:17]
BASH: You mentioned the Defense Bill. This is a huge bill that is traditionally for decades, has passed in a bipartisan way. It has passed Congress with overwhelming support, again, from both parties, and the President vetoed it.
The Congress did pass it with a veto proof majority. But do you think that some of your colleagues, enough of your colleagues will stand up to the President and actually override his veto?
RIGGLEMAN: I think we will, but there's definitely -- there's going to be those who vote with the President after the fact. A lot of it has to do with their base or their fundraising or threats.
I think they're a little afraid right now to stand up completely. Obviously, I'm going to vote to override the veto. I still think it's going to get through but I think, Dana, we're going to be surprised. I think there's going to be some people who will switch their vote.
And by the way, a lot of us are being called traitors, whether we're, you know, we were going to override the veto on the NDAA or we want to get a COVID Bill through, we want to get appropriations through. We want to stop this ridiculous Stop to Steal nonsense. But a lot of
this is based on the crazy of conspiracy theories, the crazy of disinformation, and I think we need to stand up and stop this nonsense as quickly as possible, Dana. It's just out of control right now.
BASH: So you're not coming back to Congress next year. You lost your Republican primary early this year. How do you do what you just said? How do you stop the misinformation, the disinformation, when many of your Republican colleagues kind of go along with it? And not kind of -- they go along with it?
RIGGLEMAN: They go along with it, and I've been stunned by some of them, Dana. I mean, I've been absolutely stunned.
I think I've been trying to fight. I'm on the Board of the Network Contagion Research Institute, we just put out a study on how QAnon actually dictates policy up to the national command authority.
We have the data -- data is a powerful weapon, right facts are stubborn things. What I've seen is we come up with more facts, we get more people calling us names and as we try to be classy about this, we have other people that are hitting us as traitors like myself, Adam Kinzinger, Paul Mitchell, groups, even like Project Lincoln are being called traitors. Everybody is being called a traitor if they don't go along.
The thing is, we have served our country, Adam and I, Paul as a congressman, and I want to say this, Adam is a Lieutenant Colonel of the United States Air Force. I don't know if you knew that about him, Dana.
I was a Captain prior listed and I'm going to say this, a Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force, a prior Captain in the Air Force, we outrank people calling us traitors like Marjorie Taylor Greene, because we outrank the Queen of Batshit and I'm sick of it.
And I think that's what you see going on out there is we have people who are just angry. We're tired of what's happening. And, you know, we try to use facts. But again, all we have is this massive amount of disinformation and people who are making it personal.
And if you do, military veterans like ourselves, we're going to get angry, and we just about had enough and I think what we have to do is we have got to put facts out there and just stop this ridiculous name calling and stop these people that are at, you know, Mar-a-Lago talking about, you know, Martial Law or whatever nonsense they are talking about. We've got to get back to facts and policy.
If the G.O.P. is going to survive, we better be the party of ideas, and not the party of the Kraken. That's just the way it is, and I think that's what we're tired of right now.
BASH: And when you say we've had enough, what do you do with that? Your colleague, Paul Mitchell as, you know, left the G.O.P.? Will you? Is that an action that you want to take? And would it make a difference? RIGGLEMAN: We've got to mobilize and when I say mobilize, we have got
to mobilize as a movement for the Constitution, and a movement of ideas and institutions. There is no person bigger than any institution.
And I think that's the frustration and that I felt this frustration that many other Republicans are feeling is that why are we pledging fealty to an individual when we should be supporting the Constitution and our constituents.
I've said this before, President Trump is not my boss. He is not the boss of any of the congressional representatives out there. The boss are our constituents.
And even if it hurts, even if the facts hurt, we have an obligation, a duty, right bound by honor to spit facts. We are bound by honor and I will continue to do that.
BASH: Congressman Denver Riggleman, thank you so much. Merry Christmas, and thank you for your service.
RIGGLEMAN: Thank you so much. I appreciate you, Dana.
BASH: Thank you. And travel bans and border closures may have been too late to stop the spread. The new mutant variant of coronavirus is now confirmed in Spain and Sweden. More on that soon and you're listening and watching CNN NEWSROOM.
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[18:27:58]
BASH: Breaking news out of Nashville where investigators now believe the Christmas morning explosion that injured three and damaged dozens of buildings was likely a suicide bombing. That's according to two law enforcement sources with direct knowledge of the investigation.
Authorities are now at a home in Antioch, Tennessee to conduct what they're calling court authorized activity. According to officials, a tip about the R.V. that was involved in yesterday's explosion led law enforcement to this location.
And just another awful milestone reached today in the United States. COVID-19 has now killed one out of every 1,000 Americans. Listen to that one more time, one in every 1,000 Americans has died from coronavirus and instead of slowing down and the pandemic coming under control, the opposite is happening.
Last month and this month, the disease started spreading faster in the U.S. A public health expert told CNN earlier today he expects to see the death toll reach about 400,000 people around the time of Inauguration Day, January 20th.
Joining me now to talk about this is Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency physician and CNN medical analyst. Dr. Wen, thank you so much for joining me. The figures are so staggering. Honestly, it's like you run out of
adjectives to use to describe what we're seeing and the fact that we are on our way to 400,000 COVID deaths in this country.
And today, the T.S.A. reports that there's more evidence Americans aren't taking C.D.C. guidance seriously, very busy Christmas travel days at airports around the country.
When you see this, what goes through your mind as a physician and as a public health official -- former public health official?
DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Dana, what goes through my mind is what these people are now doing over the Christmas holidays.
The individuals who are traveling, they probably are not going camping in the wilderness. Probably they are going to see loved ones and having dinner without wearing masks, crowded indoors for prolonged periods of time.
There are many people who may have COVID-19 and not know it, and then spread it to their loved ones and then they're going to go back to their home communities and then infect others unknowingly, inadvertently.
And what I worry about is those same individuals are then going to be in the hospitals and ICUs in two to three weeks' time.
[18:30:17]
Our hospitals are already at the brink, our ICUs are filled. One in five hospitals are reporting that their ICUs are at capacity or over capacity. And I just really worry about this surge that we're going to see and how quickly we're going to surpass that 400,000 deaths number that you mentioned.
BASH: And as I've been reminded by you and other physicians and healthcare professionals, it's the beds but it's much more than the beds, it's the health care professionals who are there and the fact that there just aren't enough of them and those who are there are absolutely exhausted after what we've seen over almost a year. I got to ask you about this so called variant of the coronavirus. It's now turning up in several countries in Europe. What is the level of concern that you have about that and what does that mean in layman's terms that there's a mutation of the coronavirus?
WEN: So viruses mutate, that's what they do and there are many different types of variants that have been discovered since we first found out about COVID-19. What's concerning about the variant that's now spreading very quickly in the U.K. and the other variant in South Africa is that they seem to be even more transmissible than the normal other variants for COVID-19.
And so we already have an extremely contagious disease, so if you have something that is up to 70 percent, more contagious, that's extremely concerning. And so I think, though, that the takeaway for all of us is that this is still spread the same way. And so the same precautions that we normally have been talking about, the masking, physical distancing, avoiding indoor gatherings will also protect us against this variant as it does for COVID-19.
And also, the sooner we can rein in the infection overall, the better it is for all of us. Because the more it spreads, the more there is a higher chance of having even more mutations that could be even more likely to spread.
BASH: And so far do we think that the vaccines that have been approved will also keep people safe from getting infected from these variants.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's no reason for us to believe at this time that the vaccines developed, the Pfizer, the Moderna vaccine will somehow not be effective against these variants. The testing remains to be done, but the vaccines are developed with that in mind that the viruses do mutate. And so again, no reason for us to believe that the vaccine would not work.
BASH: And on this, the Japanese government announced today that it's banning entry for all foreign nationals for at least a month over concerns about this variant. This is an age of global travel. I know you know about the travel even today and over the past few days, we showed some photos of airports that looked pretty packed considering the fact that we're in a global pandemic. Given all of that, should nation state closing their borders? Is there even a reason to do that? Does it work?
WEN: Travel bans do slow the spread of a disease, but it's not fully effective. And in this case, there are other things that can be done that are not as costly economically and are not as draconian as a total travel ban. So for example, requiring pre departure testing, followed by 14 days of mandatory quarantine, followed by another test. That's been employed by many countries in order to help slow the spread and I think that's something that Japan and others can do, especially given that this variant has probably already spread to many parts of the world including the U.S.
BASH: Dr. Leana Wen with a beautiful Christmas tree behind her, thank you so much. Appreciate it and happy holidays.
WEN: And to you too, Dana.
BASH: Thank you. And tune in tomorrow morning for my interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci that is airing at 9 am on State of the Union right here on CNN. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.
And the power of pardon is in full effect in President Trump's final days in office. It's written in the Constitution, but are there things he can and can't do? We're going to talk about that just ahead.
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[18:37:07]
BASH: Twenty-five days until the inauguration of President-elect Joe Biden. Plenty of time for Donald Trump to issue more presidential pardons. So far the list is very controversial, political cronies, corrupt lawmakers, convicted war criminals and an in-law, Jared Kushner's father. So let's talk about that and what's next.
Joining me is former U.S. Attorney and Senior Legal Analyst for CNN Preet Bharara along with Susan Page, Washington Bureau Chief for USA Today and back with us is former FBI Deputy Director, Andrew McCabe. Thanks all of you for joining me on this holiday weekend.
Preet, I want to start with you. So Republican Senator Ben Sasse, I'm sure you saw this, he's a frequent critic of President Trump. He called the pardons rotten to the core. But this is really unfettered presidential power, we're talking about, right?
PREET BHARARA, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It is. But as with so many things with respect to Donald Trump, the fact that you have the power to do something doesn't mean that you're incapable of abusing it.
That's the thing, a concept that people have to wrap their head around when you contemplate this presidential term and the legacy of Donald Trump just because you have the power to fire certain kinds of people, just because you have the power to launch military attacks, just because you have the power to pardon doesn't mean that those things can't be questioned and these certainly can be and they're being questioned, I think, at a pretty remarkable pace by erstwhile quiet Republicans.
Ben Sasse is one of a small number, but I think when all is said and done, by the time we get through the next 25 days, I think we'll be back here a lot, talking about additional pardons that will be even more sensational and controversial, and unprecedented, and perhaps even unlawful.
BASH: And Susan I am reading Preet's mind, which is dangerous, because there's a lot going on in there that I don't know, particularly about the law. But this one I think I got which is reporting that CNN has done and others about the president contemplating pre pardoning members of his family, himself, is that something that let's just say he does that or if he doesn't, it's just he deals with the consequences of what he's already done.
Are people numb to this that he just busts the norms and this is Trumpism and people just need to hobble through the next 25 days who don't like it?
SUSAN PAGE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, USA TODAY: Well, we know that most Americans think it would be an abuse of presidential power for the President to preemptively pardon himself or his children, his close friends, 62 percent in a USA Today poll this week said the President would be abusing his powers by preemptively pardoning himself.
But I'm not sure he pays much of a political price for, because we thought done most Republicans said it would be perfectly appropriate for him to do that. And the people who are outraged by his pardons are probably already outraged about other things involving President Trump. [18:40:03]
I'm not sure there's an accumulation of more outrage to me. So, for instance, Bill Clinton played a big price politically when he pardoned a hundred people on his way out the door and his last day in office, he paid the price. I'm just not sure Donald Trump pays the same political price if he does the same thing.
BASH: And Andrew, I got to ask you about this because Paul Manafort, Roger Stone, George Papadopoulos, Michael Flynn, these are people whose investigations I know you were knowledgeable of involved with when you were at the FBI as a law enforcement, a person who spent his life in law enforcement. I know you didn't have the best ending with President Trump, but from a pure, like I said, law enforcement perspective, what does this do to people inside the FBI about when it comes to investigations that they work really hard on and saw all the way through?
ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Dana, it's crushing. I mean, it really is. There's no other way to describe it and I think that his pardons of the four defendants in the Blackwater trial, there's no better example than that. I mean, this is a case that started in 2009 and wasn't really completed until 2018. That team from the FBI's Washington field office basically had to pull this entire case together three times to get it done correctly and according to the right process.
They brought over 70 witnesses to the United States for trial twice. That is such an unbelievably huge endeavor to have to convince all of these Iraqi civilians who are putting themselves at great danger coming to the United States and testifying, to come over here to take care of them while they're here for weeks and months on end and to take all of that work as significant as it was and just erase it with a stroke of the pen for men who've been convicted, essentially of war crimes. It's just incredibly, incredibly dispiriting. Yes, it's crushing. There's no other way to describe it.
BASH: Yes. That's an important point. I obviously asked you about the high-profile political cases you were involved in and those are the photos we have on the screen, but that's something else that has caused a lot of ripple effect.
Preet, I want you to put your political hat on. I met you when you're a young whippersnapper on Capitol Hill, in addition to the hat of a former U.S. Attorney. So Joe Biden has said he's not going to interfere in DOJ investigations, but just a devil's advocate question here, should he and should he say in the United States, we don't prosecute former presidents, that's what they do in banana republics not in the U.S.A.
BHARARA: Well, I think in the United States of America what we do is we prosecute people against whom there is - have a sufficient evidence to hold them accountable beyond a reasonable doubt to unanimous jury. That's the fundamental principle of rule of law in this country and we say over and over again, over the last number of years as a mantra, politicians and pundits and others alike say no one is above the law. And what we've learned over the last few years is a little bit a
sitting president is above the law, because you have this Office of Legal Counsel opinion that says he can't be prosecuted. So you have fundamental principles and tenets that have to be balanced against each other one is you want unity as a political matter in the country and other is no one is above the law.
So I think it's going to depend on what the nature of the evidence is. I think it's going to depend on what other things come to light beyond what the Mueller report disclosed and brought to our attention. Because I think there's reasonable basis to suspect and predict that we're going to find out about other kinds of malfeasance on the part of the President and other people around him, whether in connection with these pardons or otherwise.
When they come to light, it's going to be very difficult for a justice department or for other prosecutors to just look away when there's going to be momentum to hold someone accountable or at least conduct a fair-minded investigation of those things. So I think, yes, the next President of the United States, President Biden, should stay out of it, should not be directing his attorney - that's why we're in this mess in the first place.
But I think it's going to be a very difficult question to balance these American principles against each other. It'll be tough.
BASH: And Susan, on the politics of what Preet was just talking about, I mean, you saw during the whole Democratic primary season putting Joe Biden aside a lot of the Democratic candidates who ended up losing, they were responding to pressure from the Democratic base to be super aggressive if and when Democrats take the White House against President Trump and his allies.
PAGE: Yes. But look at this set of problems that President-elect Biden is going to face on January 20th. The worst public health emergency in more than a century.
[18:45:01]
Economy that's in crisis, a racial reckoning that has really reshaped big parts of American culture. He's going to have a lot to do and he's going to be facing these without big Democratic majorities on Capitol Hill. He need to cooperate with and get the cooperation of Republicans on Capitol Hill.
So I understand the point about no one is above the law and the idea of investigations about what happened, what has happened in the past. But I do think it's a tough call for the new administration to add to that, the enormously controversial step of prosecuting the former president. That is not to say he's not going to be facing continued legal action by for instance, state governments, like the one in New York that is investigating some aspects of his background.
BASH: Yes. And as Preet always reminds us just because he pardoned somebody on a federal level, even potentially himself, it doesn't have anything to do with things going on at the state level. Last question to you, Andrew McCabe, the editorial board at The New York Times published an op-ed last week saying that Donald Trump has corrupted the idea of presidential pardons and that Joe Biden has to repair it. I'm guessing you agree, but what can he do, what should he do?
MCCABE: Well, I think the first thing you can do is go back to what John McCain would have called regular order, which would be only taking recommendations for pardons that have been processed through the Department of Justice, that have been vetted and investigated. And that process they typically come to the FBI or whatever investigative agency have the case. They find out if there's reason to consider that person for a pardon. They do their due diligence and they form a recommendation and hand that to the Office of the President.
Like that's the first step. Let's get back to normal process that can be defended and based on actual legitimate concerns, and not just based on the whims of a person who wants to protect his criminal co- conspirators and political friends.
BASH: Andrew McCabe, Susan Page, Preet Bharara, thank you so much for joining me this evening. I appreciate it.
And the coronavirus is threatening the survival of even the most deeply rooted businesses in America. And when we come back, the iconic Manny's Deli in Chicago and details on how it is struggling. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.
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BASH: Countless small businesses are falling victim to the pandemic and economic hardships that follow. But some are managing to stay open carried on by grit and hard-earned experience like Chicago's historic Manny's Cafeteria and Deli, 79 years old and the business has seen some tough times before but Manny is hanging in there. CNN's Adrienne Broaddus has the story of an icon.
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ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): If history is a teacher ...
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DAN RASKIN, OWNER, MANNY'S CAFETERIA & DELICATESSEN: There's Manny, that was my grandfather and then my dad.
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BROADDUS (voice over): The owner of Manny's deli has learned the only thing constant ...
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RASKIN: I'm not done changing it.
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BROADDUS (voice over): ... is change. Chicago's iconic Jewish deli was started by the Raskin brothers before the U.S. entered World War II.
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RASKIN: I am Dan Raskin. I'm the fourth generation owner operator here at Manny's. We've been in business for 79 years.
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BROADDUS (voice over): Manny's.
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JERRY KARP, CUSTOMER: Old, traditional delicatessen that you cannot find in many cities in the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For 44 years has been the place where I go to clog my arteries and clear my head.
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BROADDUS (voice over): Manny's closing its doors for good because of COVID-19 would be like someone you love dying.
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KARP: I think a lot of people would cry, a nostalgic place would be gone and we're losing enough of them.
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BROADDUS (voice over): Inside the walls hold history.
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RASKIN: I definitely think my favorite memory was when President Obama came in.
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BROADDUS (voice over): Days after Obama was elected in 2008, his first public stop was at Manny's.
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RASKIN: He wanted to come in and get a corned beef sandwich and some cherry pie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Best corned beef you'll find, sliced by the best corned beef man behind the counter you'll find anywhere, Gino.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROADDUS (voice over): The kitchen is 70-year-old Gino's second home. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GINO GAMBAROTA, MANNY'S EMPLOYEE: It's like coming to work and being with your family, especially now it's important more so than ever.
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BROADDUS (voice over): The empty chairs and declining revenue are reminders of what the pandemic has stolen.
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RASKIN: It's been hard. I mean, especially businesses downtown, there's not a lot of people working in the city. This is just Manny checking out a customer.
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BROADDUS (voice over): Memories can't protect Manny's from the pitfalls of the pandemic. On Twitter, Dan asked for help and customers came to the rescue.
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RASKIN: At certain times during the pandemic there has definitely been low lows.
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BROADDUS (voice over): Decades before COVID, Manny's face challenges.
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RASKIN: The riots in the '60s.
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BROADDUS (voice over): That was following the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. It forced the company to pivot. Dan's father Ken shared stories about cutting hours.
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RASKIN: He said when the riots started then he said that they decided to close because it wasn't safe and there was curfews.
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BROADDUS (voice over): Fast forward to 2020.
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RASKIN: It was heartbreaking.
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BROADDUS (voice over): Unrest following the police killing of George Floyd force Manny's to adapt again.
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RASKIN: The last eight months when you look back at all the events, it's not just COVID but it's the rioting, everything just compiles on top of each other and just happy to survive it.
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BROADDUS (voice over): Survival is in Dan's DNA. He found a way to keep business going by delivering to Chicago suburbs, a motto involving more labor to pack everything up and go. And it costs more but means 43 employees continue working. And with each meal, Dan delivers hope.
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RASKIN: We will survive and we'll get through it, so we're very fortunate we have had some great support and people are understanding that we're working under different conditions and we're here for people to place orders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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[18:55:04]
BASH: And up next, a stunning development in the investigation into that Christmas explosion in Nashville. We're live from Nashville at the top of the hour with the latest on that. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM.
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BASH: A few hours ago, the world hit a staggering new milestone, 80 million confirmed cases of the coronavirus. It's simply stunning. But vaccines could begin to turn the tide and the European Union is expected to begin its own vaccination program this weekend. Here's CNN Cyril Vanier.
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CYRIL VANIER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: After being the epicenter of the pandemic earlier this year, Europe begins to turn a page on Sunday as the European Union kicks off its vaccination program. Germany, Italy, Greece, Finland, Bulgaria are among the countries that will administer the first doses on day one. It's going to be very gradual, very incremental.
For instance, here in France, the first jabs will be given to only a dozen patients from a geriatric hospital ward outside Paris. Vaccinations will then target the oldest and most vulnerable members of society over a matter of months and authorities don't expect to make the vaccine available to all adults until the summer of 2021.
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Meanwhile, European countries have to overcome major hurdles, logistics for one. Because the only authorized vaccine so far from Pfizer, BioNTech must be transported across Europe.
