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Interview with Representative Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX) about Trump Georgia Phone Call; Trump's Phone Call with Georgia Officials Could Impact the State's Senate Runoffs; Trump Threatens Georgia Officials, Demanding to Find Votes; Interview with Representative Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX) about Trump Georgia Phone Call. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired January 03, 2021 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Secretary of state of Georgia. The tape includes threats from the president and a clear ask to ignore the November outcome and to find votes to overturn this election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have won this election in Georgia based on all of this, and there's nothing wrong with saying that, Brad. You know? I mean, having a correct -- the people of Georgia are angry. And these numbers are going to be repeated on Monday night, along with others that we're going to have by that time, which are much more substantial even, and the people of Georgia are angry.

The people of the country are angry, and there's nothing wrong with saying that, you know -- that you've recalculated.

BRAD RAFFENSPERGER, GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, Mr. President, the challenge that you have is the data you have is wrong.

TRUMP: Now, do you think it's possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County? Because that's what the rumor is, and also that Dominion took out machines. That Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their -- machinery? Do you know anything about that? Because that's illegal.

RYAN GERMANY, GENERAL COUNSEL FOR GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: This is Ryan Germany. No. Dominion has none moved any machinery out of Fulton County.

TRUMP: No, but, have they moved -- have they -- have they moved the inner parts of the machines and replaced them with other parts?

GERMANY: No.

TRUMP: Are you sure, Ryan?

GERMANY: I'm sure. TRUMP: You should want to have an accurate election. And you're a

Republican.

RAFFENSPERGER: We believe that we do have an accurate election.

TRUMP: No. No, you don't. No, no, you don't. You don't have -- you don't have, not even close. You got -- you're off by hundreds of thousands of votes. You know what they did, and you're not reporting it. That's -- you know, that's a criminal -- that's a criminal offense. And you know, you can't let that happen. That's -- that's a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer. That's a big risk, but they are -- shredding ballots in my opinion, based on what I've heard and they are removing machinery and they're moving it as fast as they can. Both of which are criminal finds and you can't let it happen and you are letting it happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. Let's talk about these extraordinary recordings now. Our legal analyst Michael Zeldin with us, CNN's Kyung Lah in Savannah, Georgia, where Democrats are stumping in the runoff Senate race here in Georgia, CNN's John Harwood at the White House, and CNN's Mark Preston.

Good to see you all. Mark, you first, you know, how damning, how potentially consequential is this for the president?

MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, a couple of things. One is, I mean, I think we're starting to see a formation of whether or not he broke the law by pressuring these state officials and I'll leave that up to the legal experts to go down that road. Even if he did in many ways I don't even think that he could necessarily be prosecuted given the division in the country.

But what I do think we're seeing right now is really the absolute crumbling of Trump's hold on the Republican Party, and I say that because of this. I know a lot of folks are saying well, he's got 12 senators who are supporting him. He's got, you know, all these House members that are supporting him. They also didn't realize that this recording was going to come out today. So he has now effectively embarrassed 12 Republican senators. They won't acknowledge it, but he has embarrassed them. He has also --

WHITFIELD: Could they change their tune two days --

PRESTON: Well --

WHITFIELD: Almost three days after?

PRESTON: I think it would be very difficult for them because, listen, the only reason why they all decided to do this, Fred, was for their own politics. Secondly, this should have been a day where we're all talking about how Nancy Pelosi barely won the speakership. But we're not talking about that. Donald Trump has taken that away from him, and then of course, look what's going on in Georgia. Even in that telephone call, he said, hey, Brad, if this doesn't -- if

you don't do this a lot of Republicans are going to be angry Monday and like basically saying they're not going to vote for the Republican senators. If you're a Republican right now I think you need to take a step back, not only look at what's good for the country, also look at what's good for your party.

WHITFIELD: Yes. I mean, the president is actually saying to the secretary of state, too, if you don't do something you're going to have the same outcome come Tuesday from this runoff election that you had in November, meaning Democrats would win.

So, John Harwood, still radio silence coming from the White House?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. The White House is not going to comment on this videotape or audiotape, rather, and it doesn't matter because we've got the words of the president, we've got the chief of staff on the call. This call makes crystal clear that the president of the United States who's going to be in that building behind me for another two and a half weeks, because he is either crazy or simply corrupt or both, was openly pressuring the Republican secretary of state on the basis of the fact that he was a Republican to reverse the vote count in Georgia that showed that Joe Biden won the state.

[16:05:12]

And he embroidered it with all this nonsense about shredded ballots and the inner workings of machines, none of which is true. And we all know that it's not true, which is why multiple recounts and re- examinations of the Georgia result have shown that Joe Biden won the state.

And on Mark Preston the point, if, in fact, that some of those Republican senators and House members are capable of embarrassment and capable of altering their behavior because they are embarrassed about this, that would be a hopeful sign of health within the Republican Party. But nothing that we have seen for months and months have suggested to me at least that that is likely to be the case.

WHITFIELD: Hmm. OK. Attorney Michael Zeldin, a whole lot of legal questions here. I mean, if the chief of staff, you know, Mark Meadows was there, A, is he protected against any kind of prosecution? Because I've heard all kinds of things here, words like this exemplifies -- this phone call exemplifies extortion, it's conspiracy, it's an attempt to overthrow an election, all of which are crimes.

MICHAEL ZELDIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I'm not sure that I'd go down the path of extortion and conspiracy to extort. I think that if it is a crime, there's a statute that says it's improper for any elected -- any person to interfere with a state election to procure votes inappropriately. And it would seem to me that that statute, 52 U.S. code 2511, would be that, which would be the appropriate one were this case referred to the Justice Department for involvement.

And anyone who participated in that call to procure an outcome in a state election that was inappropriate would theoretically have legal liability, Fred.

WHITFIELD: Hmm. Michael, what do you think about this notion? Preet Bharara, you know, former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York tweeted out this, saying, that the odds are that Trump might declare a self-pardon. That just went up a bunch. What do you think about that idea?

ZELDIN: Well, he's been floating it for a long time, the president. It's on very mushy constitutional grounds that he can do that himself. Were he to try, the way it would work out is he says, I self-pardon, then a prosecutor would come or Congress would come and say, we want to either prosecute you or we want your testimony. He says, I don't have to participate in the congressional, or I'm not subject to indictment in the legal, because I self-pardoned. It gets challenged, and ultimately the Supreme Court reviews whether that pardon was appropriate.

WHITFIELD: OK. Pardoning self, isn't that an admission of guilt?

ZELDIN: Well, actually it is because in order to accept a pardon you have to acknowledge criminal activity. In this case, though, it would depend on how the pardon is structured. In Nixon's case, for example, Ford said, I pardon you for any possible crimes from period A to period B. So if Trump did the same for himself, it may not be that there's a specific admission of a crime but just insulation from a possible future investigation of him criminally or congressional testimony from him.

WHITFIELD: And what about Chief of Staff Mark Meadows? He was apparently there while the call was being made, complicit. And if the president is essentially admitting that he committed by pardoning himself, what about the protection for Chief of Staff Mark Meadows?

ZELDIN: So I'm not sure that the president is admitting to committing a crime were he to self-pardon. I think Meadows is -- conduct more would be criminal liability from this point of view of he participated in the call. The Georgia official said we only found evidence of two people who were dead who tried to vote, and Meadows said, oh, no, no, there are more than that. So if one says well, that's part of a scheme or a cause of conduct to pressure the state to change its results, then he has got the same liability on that statute that I referred to, 52 U.S. Code 2511.

WHITFIELD: All right. Kyung Lah, there in Savannah, Georgia, Democrats stumping two days ahead of this runoff election. The vice president- elect is to be there. What is being said about this audiotape?

KYUNG LAH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you may have noticed I was looking down at my phone. And the reason why is I am just now getting a response from the campaign. This is the Warnock campaign first out of the gate with a response.

[16:10:03]

And the campaign here in Georgia, remember these Senate runoff campaigns, the election is just two days away. Reverend Warnock, Reverend Raphael Warnock has just put out a statement saying, "Kelly Loeffler has already made clear she does not respect Georgia voters. It is, in fact, that Gorgia's elected Joe Biden and Kamala Harris to be our next president and vice president. A fact Kelly Loeffler still refuses to admit."

So what he is trying to do there is trying to connect the senator to Donald Trump as tightly as possible, and it's something that we've seen Democrats try to do. To try to show that whatever Donald Trump believes, these Republican senators believe.

But, remember, Fredricka, this has been very much a campaign both on the Democratic side and the Republican side, to get out the faithful. To get out the base. Is this going to affect anything? I have spoken to dozens of Republican voters, ordinary voters, some, you know, local people in government here. And I have yet to interview anyone who doesn't think that the president isn't correct, that he is not the person -- that he's the person who won the state of Georgia.

And that's incorrect. That's a lie. After a hand count, after recounts here, it has been proven now that Joe Biden still did win the state of Georgia. And so what this president has been saying has filtered down here to this election, and it really will be a matter of which side, the Republican side or the Democratic side, will be able to get out the base.

We are anticipating the two Democratic challengers, Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff, to take the stage behind me in just a few minutes and then Senator Kamala Harris -- Vice President-elect Kamala Harris, still getting used to that, she is expected to also be a potent force to get out the base. The all-critical black vote here in Savannah to try to get them to the polls on election day -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And Kyung, I know you're following the Democrats there, but I know you've also been crisscrossing the state in the last month or so ahead of this runoff election. The president of the United States is expected to be in Georgia tomorrow, Monday, stumping for the Republicans. One has to wonder if he's still, you know, on par with doing that, and if so, what might that moment be like?

LAH: Yes. You know, the question's going to be, is he going to read the words on the teleprompter? That is what the discussion is here in Republican circles. Will he follow the script? Will he be able to talk to Republican voters and to stop focusing on January 6th but focus instead on January 5th. Because what is at stake here and what happens Tuesday is control of the Senate.

Now, if the Democrats flip these two seats and then the vice president-elect is a tiebreaker, essentially the Democrats have control of both chambers of Congress. So it is something that is vital for Democrats to have in order to put out the legislative agenda for Joe Biden, and what the message has been from Republicans is they want to be the firewall here in Georgia. But are Republicans going to hear that message from the president?

WHITFIELD: Right. And still with you, Kyung, because you mentioned Kelly Loeffler, you know, Loeffler, and she boasts of voting with President Trump 100 percent of the time. And it had been scheduled that she would be appearing alongside President Trump when he is to come to Georgia tomorrow. Might that be a little difficult for her now, given these tapes, the president talking about undermining the election?

And if the election, Georgia election is illegal and invalid for the president, why not for the down ballot races as well?

LAH: Exactly. And that's really what we're talking about here. What the Republican senators need are for the voters to trust the system enough to go out and use that very system that the president is talking about as being invalid or being illegal, and vote.

Now Republicans are behind the eight ball slightly because what we've seen from data analysis of who has voted so far in early voting are that Democrats are outperforming how they have done in November. In November 2020. So Democrats are pleased with their turnout so far. Republicans believe it is achievable that they will win these two seats, that they will be able to defend these Republican-held seats in the state of Georgia for the Senate as long as their voters come out.

If their voters come out they will be able to keep these seats, but if those voters believe that this election is illegitimate, that, you know, they're angry about what the president is saying, they decide that they're discouraged. If some way that that turnout is suppressed on Tuesday, then Republicans, and not only are behind on early votes, then they may not be able to crawl over that to the finish line. So that's really the concern here from among Republicans.

[16:15:17]

WHITFIELD: John, is the president still scheduled to go to Georgia tomorrow, Monday, to stump for these Republicans in the runoff?

HARWOOD: Yes. And I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't go. This is not someone who is capable of much shame, and the fact that this recording has surfaced of him talking to Brad Raffensperger in this way, I would expect him to offer the same public justifications that he offered on the call to Brad Raffensperger, even though they're of course not rooted in reality or the truth.

WHITFIELD: Mark, how is the Republican Party not irreparably being harmed here?

PRESTON: Well, they are harmed, they certainly are being harmed in the near term. I mean, who knows what's going to happen 10 years from now, 20 years from now to the party, but the party certain has taken a shift. It has gone in a Trump direction in a way that I -- many of us didn't think that it could come back again or at least come back more towards what the Republican Party used to be which is, you know, a more establishment, business-friendly, in many ways compassionate, you know, depending on who the leadership is.

However, though, I do think that Trump's -- this recording and his field lawsuits and the silliness that we've seen over the past couple of months, I think that's going to loosen his grip on the Republican Party as a whole going forward. Now when Trump leaves office in January, he leaves power. OK? So people are not going to flock around him just because he has that center gravity of power.

He will still have a lot of supporters. He still will have the real Trump faithful, but I do wonder, given what we've seen, you know, fall out over the past couple of weeks and really past couple of months, do mainstream Republicans then take a step back and once he's gone, out of sight, out of mind, who's our next? And I think that may happen. Not right away, but I do think that Trump has really hurt himself in controlling the Republican Party for generations.

WHITFIELD: Yes. And I wonder of those who were believers that he might make another run in 2024, this phone call, it seems like it would dash the hopes of many of those people who were in his corner thinking now, how could that possibly even happen?

PRESTON: No question. I mean, look, Donald Trump doesn't want to leave the spotlight. His family doesn't want to leave the spotlight. They will continue to be in the spotlight. It's just not going to be as bright and he's not going to be in a position of power that we see right now. In many ways, thank God, right, that he won't be in that position, but he won't be in that position. So that's where it will be interesting to see if the Republican Party does try to reconstitute in a different way as Trump gets, you know, further away from being in office.

WHITFIELD: All right. We'll leave it there for now. Mark Preston, Michael Zeldin, John Harwood, Kyung Lah, thanks to all of you. Appreciate it.

We're going to take a short break. Coming up, President Trump's phone call is getting huge reaction on Capitol Hill. Democratic Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee joining me live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:21:07]

WHITFIELD: All right. Welcoming back to breaking news that we're following right now. Stunning new audio just into CNN. President Donald J. Trump caught on tape threatening Georgia officials to find votes to sway the presidential election results in that state.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. So -- so, tell me, Brad, what are we going to do? We won the election and it's not fair to take it away from us like this. And it's going to be very costly in many ways.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So on that call you heard the president of the United States, his voice, and the Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger and his attorney Ryan Germany. Joining me now to discuss is Democratic Congresswoman Sheila Jackson

Lee of Texas.

Congresswoman, good to see you. I mean, we would have been talking primarily about the swearing in today of the 117th Congress, perhaps even Nancy Pelosi's, you know, return to House speaker but instead all of that being upstaged by this audiotape. What's your reaction?

REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D-TX): Well, Fred, first of all, it is a Happy New Year, because we've come into a new year and I wish you that and all of your viewers.

I want to make this one point as I respond to that. I'm talking to constituents who are calling in between oxygen breaths in the hospitals that are trying to stay alive from COVID-19, yet the president of the United States in the midst of this pandemic and the swearing-in of a new Congress to begin work on behalf of the American people made a call yesterday that is not only daunting but frightening.

It is frightening because the one thing we have to hold on to as Americans is that we have this precious set of principles in the Constitution called democracy. That's what we have based our survival, our leadership, our presence in this world. And what the president did yesterday was to badger, to intimidate a state elected official to do something wrong. It could be illegal.

It could be criminal, because he asked him saying that he had won the election, meaning the president, and that he asked him to find 11,870 votes, one more vote, to indicate that the gentleman that he was speaking to was a Republican, and that he should not want this to happen. And that he, the president, sitting president, won this election, not his opponent, in this instance, Mr. Biden, who has won 306 electoral votes.

So this is stunning. It's stunning in the backdrop of the crisis in America dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. It is more stunning because of the great love and affection Americans, no matter what their party affiliation is, has for a nation that has been the longest standing democracy in the world.

What next for the president of the United States? I don't know, but I do think this has to be addressed.

WHITFIELD: So he has 17 days left in office before this swearing in. And when you say it has to be addressed, do you go as far as to say this president could be removed from office because of that recording? Because of what you call a badgering of an elected Georgia official, the secretary of state? Or could he even, you know, face any charges, in your view, whether it be while still in office or even afterwards?

JACKSON LEE: Well, Fred, we're not yet even sworn in. That's the striking thing of what happened. The senators are not sworn in, the House members are not sworn in as of yet. What I will say to you, there's enough horror in the halls of Congress about these actions that I do believe we will turn our minds very quickly in the next 24 hours into this week.

[16:25:09]

As you well know, we face another daunting day on January 6th when we understand that this president has encouraged Proud Boys and others to be here with my fearful prospects of violence. And so in the midst of trying to uphold the Constitution and the duties that we have on January 6th, we're concerned about making sure the safety and security of this city and of the process, and now we have to deal with a conspicuous action that seemed to have asked an official in the state of Georgia to turn the election, finding 11,870 votes towards the individual that has been determined to have lost on the basis of electoral votes.

And I just want to say one thing. The electoral votes were cast on December 14th. And at that time many steps could have been made. The states had already certified, no one pressured the states to submit the certified votes that they did and in those certified votes totaled 306 for President-elect Biden. That should be very well stated, and historically, the senators represent the 1877 -- that's a long time ago -- election, or 1876, as an example.

They know full well that the southern states that they're speaking of at that time including Florida and South Carolina sent in dual electors. None of that happened. None of that happened in the 2020 election.

WHITFIELD: Yes. All states have already certified the election and this would have been -- it's expected to be a formality now to certify those certifications come Wednesday. So there have been very few Republican, you know, sitting members of Congress who have said anything about this audiotape.

Now Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger has tweeted saying, "This is absolutely appalling to every member of Congress considering objections to the election results. You cannot in light of this do so with a clean conscience."

Is it your feeling, however, that so many, whether it be 140 members of the House, 12 members in the Senate, Republicans who have said that they are not going to certify the election, it's too difficult for them to backtrack now?

JACKSON LEE: Well, I think I have to ask the question to them. Is it more important to them to be a patriot, believing in and upholding the Constitution or is it more important to be a follower? The individual who seems to be wrapping himself in misdeeds? I would much rather be called a patriot. First of all, the grounds upon which they are joining in this false allegation of fraud is wrong in the first place, because two major leaders of the Trump administration, first Director Krebs of the Cybersecurity Agency inside the Department of Homeland Security indicated that he had established there was no fraud.

And I know that because we worked with Director Krebs three years preceding to ensure that it leads as it relates to the election security, it would be in place and it would not be as the 2016 election with Russian breaching of that. Secondarily, the attorney general most recently made the pronouncement that his investigators and the FBI determined that there was no credible fraud in the election and none that would warrant him to bring any further investigation, or any charges.

Those are two leaders of the Trump administration. Why, then, would members of Congress choose to suggest that they had inside information, when the states, the governors and others are asserting that these are the right electors and the electors are representing the vote of the people and they have no representation that there was fraud?

So in addition to today where anyone with any sensibilities would be shocked. I'm sure there are viewers that are listening are trying to clarify what we are actually saying. They are not believing that the president called, badgered and asked for 11,870 votes to be found and that he said that he won Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes. I'm sure most people are viewing this as incredulous.

WHITFIELD: Yes.

JACKSON LEE: I think that --

WHITFIELD: It is hard to believe which is why we have played it several times so that people can reassure themselves that they just heard what they heard, which is pretty stunning. And even most recently leading up to this phone call, the Georgia secretary of state following an audit once again said that there was absolutely no fault found in the election process and the outcome of the November general election and feels very comfortable that the upcoming runoff election will be sound as well.

[16:30:00]

Congressman Adam Schiff has also responded to all of this, tweeting, Trump's contempt for democracy is laid bare once again on tape, pressuring an elected -- election official, rather, to find the votes so he can win is potentially criminal and another flagrant abuse of power by a corrupt man who would be a despot if allowed him -- if we allowed him, rather. We will not.

He says we will not and I know you too said something needs to be done, but what are the options? I mean this doesn't appear to be a man, a president who isn't going to step down willingly. So what are the options with his 17 days left in office?

REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D-TX): Well, you know, Fred, I'm not going yield to that potential, because all of the years that we can remember, we have had a peaceful transition of power. There is no doubt that this president will do anything and everything within his immediate power to destroy the sanctity of democracy and to undermine duly elected persons.

I would say to my colleagues who are still pursuing this, this should be the actual nail in the coffin, if you will. This should actually be the stick that has broke the camel's back. If I was any of them I would quietly draw back on any efforts as misrepresenting to the American people that this election is based on fraud. After that, there are powers.

We are an independent body of government. There are three equal branches of government which includes the judiciary. I can assure you there are too many patriots that will be sworn in in the United States Congress including congressman from Illinois, Kinzinger, that indicates that this is unacceptable, and there will be enough immediate committee hearings and reactions to ensure that on the 19th of January, he is beginning to move out of the White House and on the 20th the new president will be sworn in, and the vice president, and they will take the helms of government and take their rightful place.

I have no doubt that the faith and the investment of the American people in centuries of democracy will not be lost in 2021. We will do our job, whatever is necessary. I don't want to predict or project. I do know that several members have said that this seems criminal, and that obviously is left to the state law enforcement officer, U.S. attorney, state attorney general, in this instance of Georgia.

That may happen or it may not happen, but we will not allow the undermining of the peaceful transfer of government, and we have many tools in our tool house and we will utilize those. I don't want to project what they will be, but we certainly will utilize what is necessary for the legal and the proper ascending to the presidency of President Biden. There is nothing in the law that keeps him from being the next president of the United States.

WHITFIELD: All right. Happy New Year to you, Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee. You certainly have a lot on your plate, you and your fellow members of Congress, this year and beyond. Let alone this recording vaccine relief and COVID relief.

All right. Thank you so much.

JACKSON LEE: Thank you. And congratulations to all of my colleagues who are being sworn in today to serve the American people. Thank you very much.

WHITFIELD: Wonderful. I'm sure they hear you. Thank you so much, Congresswoman.

We'll continue to follow our breaking news. A stunning audio of President Trump calling for the Georgia's secretary of state to find votes. Also coming up, a big day on Capitol Hill, the 117th Congress being sworn in today and Nancy Pelosi remaining poised to be speaker of the House.

More on that in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:37:34]

WHITFIELD: All right, getting back to our breaking news now. Stunning recording of a phone call between President Donald J. Trump and Georgia -- and the Georgia secretary of state and his attorney. The president can be heard demanding that the secretary of state find, as in fabricate, enough votes to flip the state to him. Just listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state.

So tell me, Brad, what are we going to do? We won the election. And it's not fair to take it away from us like this. And it's going to be very costly in many ways.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. Let's bring in now Phil Mattingly on Capitol Hill. Already we've seen tweets from some including Adam Kinzinger and Adam Schiff, but what is being said there on Capitol Hill about what should, could be done as a result of hearing the president's recording?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look. I think there's kind of two camps here, right? There are Democrats who are making very clear this is what we told you was going on the entire time and then you have kind of the split Republican side of things.

You have people like Adam Kinzinger, Fred, you just mentioned, tweeted out, "This is absolutely appalling to every member of Congress considering objecting to election results. You cannot, in light of this, do so with a clean conscience." But there's also the reality that there are a number of members of Congress on the Republican side of the aisle that fully plan on objecting on Wednesday, on January 6th.

Now they made those plans public before this recording came out, but I think in talking to Republican sources right now over the course of the last couple of hours since the "Washington Post" broke this story, was kind of a recognition that people that have already pledged to object probably aren't going to go anywhere right now. They're going to stick to their guns.

But whether or not they have regrets, I think a number of Republicans who were opposed to this idea are basically pointing to this tape and saying, you knew this was a bad path to go down before you started. You're in it now but you should have been warned that this was coming.

I will say, it's kind of the rapture within the Republican Party that's been the most fascinating thing to watch over the course of the last several days but especially today where you have so many Republicans particularly in the House but also 12 Republicans in the Senate that are willing to side with the president, willing to object on January 6th, and yet they say that they're doing if just to raise the issue, raise the possibility of voter fraud, raise the issue because their constituents say that they don't believe the election was straight up or that it was rigged.

[16:40:06]

Not to mention the fact that it's the president that is the reason why they believe the election was rigged. But what we've seen over the course of the last 24 hours is really the opposite side of the Republican Party come in as well. Obviously you have Adam Kissinger hasn't been quiet about this issue. You had Liz Cheney circulate a 21- page memo earlier today to her colleagues talking about how bad of a precedent this would be if they objected.

You've had Paul Ryan, the former speaker of the House, put out a lengthy statement. You've had six or seven very conservative House Republicans say, look, for policy purposes we would love for Donald Trump to remain in office but this simply isn't our role in elections, how it work.

So watching that divide play out over the next couple of days with the kind of the lighter fluid added to the flame from this recording that's public, Fred, look, it's -- you cannot avert your eyes to what's going on right now. No matter how much we expected this coming over the last four years, it's -- if this is a culmination or if this is (INAUDIBLE) or something like that, I think everyone will have their eyes on, for sure, Fred.

WHITFIELD: Well, remarkably still lots can change, right, in the next three days. While you've got many Republicans who say, OK, they're still going to object to the vote, I mean, there's going to be significant pressure for them to really examine what's the gain? What's the gain for supporting the president who just got caught red- handed demonstrating that he's a cheater?

MATTINGLY: Yes, look, and I think that's been the question that a lot of veteran Republicans who I've been talking to over the course of the last four or five days have made this point. What's your endgame here, right? I think part of the reason why so many Republicans were willing to jump onboard with this was, as one member told me, who's opposed to it, told me a couple of days ago, said, look, this isn't live ammo. Right?

Like they know that this election is what it is. Joe Biden is going to be inaugurated on January 20th. So they feel politically perhaps like they can make this vote. It's not going to overturn anything. Maybe it will help them politically but it's not going to hurt the country long term. And I think when you listen to the recording from the president of the United States making very clear this isn't about raising issues.

This is about overturning an election, overturning the votes of 81 million people essentially, it undercuts all of the kind of thesis, if you will, of what Republicans were putting out. And so how this transpires over the next couple of days, it'll be interesting to watch how those Republicans who have already come out and said they're going to object on January 6th, if they retrench, how they try and refocus things, because you cannot avoid what the president was saying on that tape.

WHITFIELD: That's right. All right, Phil Mattingly, thanks so much, from Capitol Hill.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:45:33]

WHITFIELD: All right. Back to our breaking news this hour. A damning recording of President Donald J. Trump flatly demanding that election officials in Georgia overturn the results of his defeat in November. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state.

So -- so tell me, Brad, what are we going to do? We won the election and it's not fair to take it away from us like this. And it's going to be very costly in many ways.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: OK, again, on that phone call, president of the United States, sitting President Donald Trump and the Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger and his attorney Ryan Germany.

With me right now, Charles Bethea, he's an Atlanta-based staff writer for "The New Yorker."

Charles, this is pretty remarkable, A, that the secretary of state would have this phone conversation and say, I need to have my attorney present, and I'm recording it, and now this is the result of that. Why do you think he did that?

CHARLES BETHEA, STAFF WRITER, THE NEW YORKER: Really is. I mean, Trump talks about perfect phone calls that he's had. And this one with Secretary of State Raffensperger is about as imperfect as they get. Even for a president who just lost an election and has been pretending otherwise for weeks.

I can't speak to any legal jeopardy it may put the president in, but politically I think it can only hurt the GOP's momentum going into Tuesday.

WHITFIELD: You do? Even though -- even though the president himself was the one who's been undermining the position of the Republicans going into the Georgia runoff. I mean, he came down here not long ago saying, this is invalid, illegal election, and don't even bother voting? I mean, he said that while you've got these two candidates who are saying, wait a minute, I thought you're supposed to be stumping for us?

BETHEA: Yes, it puts the GOP in a pretty -- a pretty difficult position. We've already heard concern on Twitter from some high profile GOP commentators including Erick Erickson, who are very concerned. And I've been texting with officials and observers in northwest Georgia specifically over the last hour, that's where Trump is of course rallying tomorrow, and (INAUDIBLE), one told me that Trump's performance was despicable. Another said I'm not sure anything can help or hurt Perdue and Loeffler at this point, and the third told me it could actually cost Republicans the election.

A lot obviously depends on what Trump says tomorrow in Dalton, which is a pretty conservative area. It did not turn out in high numbers during the early voting period and they really have to show up on Tuesday to help Perdue and Loeffler win.

WHITFIELD: Right. So Loeffler was scheduled to be there alongside President Trump tomorrow when he visits here. David Perdue has been off the campaign trail because he's self-quarantining because he says he was near someone who tested positive for COVID.

Do you see that Loeffler would continue with that date and be alongside the president? I mean, she has boasted of voting with the president 100 percent of the time, but when you have a recording like this, do you want to be a party to this?

BETHEA: I wouldn't, but I think she's in too deep at this point. I mean, his narrative is her narrative and is Perdue's narrative. They have to have Trump supporters show up and vote for them. So I think she has basically no choice.

WHITFIELD: And what about supporters? I mean, if you're hearing from Republicans who are dismayed, who are disappointed, who are disgusted, is the president going to be met at this rally with few people in the crowd because we know, you know, he feeds off the energy of a large crowd?

BETHEA: No. I think we're going to still see huge, huge crowds show up. I mean, you know, I was at the Valdosta rally a few weeks back. Massive crowds. There have been plenty of concerning things that have come out of Trump's mouth prior to that. I don't see this really moving the dial too much in terms of Trump's, like, hard core base. But on the margins it could have impact. I just don't think that's going to show up in terms of the crowd size tomorrow.

WHITFIELD: All right. Charles Bethea, always good to see you. Thank you so much. Happy New Year.

BETHEA: Thank you so much.

WHITFIELD: All right. Coming up, President Trump claims coronavirus deaths are, quote, "exaggerated." Reaction from Dr. Anthony Fauci, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:53:17]

WHITFIELD: Top U.S. health officials are rejecting President Trump's suggestion that the U.S. coronavirus case and death totals are fake news. President Trump claiming the numbers are far exaggerated, his words, despite more than 350,000 American families starting the New Year mourning the very real losses of people they love.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JEROME ADAMS, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: From a public health perspective I have no reason to doubt those numbers and I think people need to be very aware that it's not just about the deaths as we talked earlier. It's about the hospitalizations, the capacity. These cases are having an impact in an array of ways. And people need to understand that there's a finish line in sight but we've got to keep running towards it.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: The deaths are real deaths. I mean, all you need to do is to go out into the trenches, go to the hospitals, see what the health care workers are dealing with. They are under very stressed situations. In many areas of the country the hospital beds are stretched. People are running out of beds, running out of trained personnel who are exhausted right now. That's real. That's not fake. That's real.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. Just to put this into context, the more than 351,000 U.S. coronavirus deaths is equal to 117 straight days of the U.S. losing the number of people that died in the 9/11 attacks.

A woman who is grieving the loss of her father and uncle calls the president's comments insulting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSA CERNA, LOST FATHER TO COVID-19: How could be it fake news? It took my dad, it took my uncle. It has taken so many lives. I don't think it could be fake. It's horrible. It's an insult to me. It's an insult to every family because there's absolutely no way for somebody to say that it was fake because my dad is not fake dead.

[16:55:02]

My dad is not going to resurrect from here and say oh, just kidding. It was fake. Ha, ha, ha, it's funny. It isn't. It is not fake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: It's all very real, as real as the voice of the president that we heard on those recordings being released today.

More than 20 million Americans have contracted the coronavirus and more than 351,000 people have died. These staggering numbers are not just anonymous figures and statistic. They represent individual people and the countless families that they left behind in this pandemic.

Thank you so much for being with us today and being with us on an extraordinary breaking news. Reverberation still being felt. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. The CNN NEWSROOM continues in just a moment

with Ana Cabrera.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

We begin with stunning news out of the White House. President Trump in a phone call ordering Georgia's Republican secretary of state to, quote, "find enough votes" to magically hand Trump an electoral victory in that state. The hour-long phone call between President Trump and the Georgia's secretary of state Brad Raffensperger took place.