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Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to Hold Press Conference; Conservative Media Continues to Cover Trump Differently; COVID-19 Vaccine Distribution Remains Slow. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired January 04, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:52]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: It is the top of the hour, I'm Brianna Keilar.

And President Trump is spending his final days in office much like he spent his presidency, spewing utter nonsense on Twitter, focusing entirely on himself, watching cable news, bullying Republicans and trying to win at all costs. And he's doing it as hospitals overflow and Americans die by the thousands from the coronavirus.

The president is attacking the foundation of democracy on two fronts. In Congress in two days -- which we will explain shortly -- and over the phone two days ago, which is when the president pressured Georgia's secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, to, quote, "find votes," specifically one more than the number that Joe Biden received when he won Georgia as part of his election victory.

This recording of a 62-minute call was released last night.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (via telephone): The people of Georgia are angry, the people of the country are angry. And there's nothing wrong with saying, you know, um, that you've recalculated.

So look --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP (via telephone): -- all I want to do is this, I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state.

So what are we going to do here folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KEILAR: Raffensperger and his attorney pushed back on the call, telling the president and his team that the information they had was just wrong. Today, Georgia's secretary of state added this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAD RAFFENSPERGER (R), GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: For the last two months, we've been fighting the rumor whack-a-mole, and it was pretty obvious very early on that we debunked every one of those theories that have been out there, but that President Trump continues to believe them.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ANCHOR, GOOD MORNING AMERICA: Did you consider it a lawful request when the president asked you to find the votes?

RAFENSPERGER: I'm not a lawyer. All I know is that we're going to follow the law, follow the process. Truth matters.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: We are covering all of the angles on this story. We have CNN's Dianne Gallagher, who is at the secretary of state's office in Atlanta; and CNN's Kaitlan Collins is in Dalton, Georgia, which is where the president is headlining a rally tonight in support of the two Senate Republicans who are in a runoff election tomorrow.

And, Kaitlan, you're learning just how much the president pursued the secretary of state to make that call happen.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there were a lot of calls that were attempted to happen before that call actually took place on Saturday, that call that lasted more than an hour. Because now we are learning that there were 18 calls placed from the White House switchboard to Brad Raffensperger's office in the last several weeks, that's 18 times. That means that the president or one of his staffers has attempted to contact the Georgia secretary of state.

And this morning, the Georgia secretary of state was saying that was the first time he'd actually had that one-on-one conversation with the president. Of course there were attorneys and the chief of staff also listening in on the line, because he said he did not want to discuss these things with the president, given the fact that they are in the middle of this ongoing litigation.

And so he said that would obviously require the attorneys to also be on the call, given what is going on and the actions that the president and his legal team have taken in the state of Georgia.

But also, Brianna, if you listen to this recording, you can see not only why they recorded this call and then later released it to reporters, but why he didn't want to get on the phone with him in the first place. Because it was an hour barrage, basically, of the president just talking constantly, cutting off his own attorneys when they were trying to ask the secretary of state's office for certain data.

And the president, making clear that the one thing he wants is not really more data or more proof or more evidence, he simply wants them to change the vote count in the state of Georgia. And so one thing we've also learned is that the White House Counsel,

Pat Cipollone, was not on that call. That's notable because you could hear the secretary of state's counsel also on that call, that was one of those voices that is pushing back on the president's claims.

And I think Pat Cipollone not being on that call is further evidence of how you are seeing senior staff around the president trying to distance themselves from this effort out of, of course, a fear of what it could result in, what backlash there could be. And that's something that people are also looking at with Mark Meadows being on that call, and the things that he said as well in addition to what the president said.

KEILAR: That's a very interesting absence that you point out there, Kaitlan.

And Dianne, when you listen to this call, the president was just flat- out nasty to Georgia's secretary of state. He said that people in Georgia hate him and what he did. What more is Raffensperger saying about their conversation?

[14:05:10]

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So in addition to what Kaitlan just said there, what's interesting is that according to a person who was on the call and also has direct knowledge of the conversation, Raffensperger said that he wanted the conversation recorded, but did not want anyone to release that recording or the transcript unless the president attacked him or misrepresented that conversation in some way. And, look, pretty much on cue, the president on Sunday morning attacked Secretary Raffensperger.

Now, Kaitlan said 18 different times the president attempted to reach out or someone on his staff attempted to reach out to Raffensperger, he admits that he was intentionally avoiding the conversation. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAFFENSPERGER: No, I never believed it was appropriate to speak to the president. But he pushed out, I guess he had his staff push us, they wanted a call.

The challenge that we have -- first of all, we're in a litigation mode with the president's team against the state of Georgia. And whenever you say anything, then you do have to your advisers there, they have to have their advisers there with lawyers. And so I just preferred not to talk to someone when we're in litigation, we let the lawyers handle it.

But we took the call, and we had a conversation. He did most of the talking, we did most of the listening. But I did want to make my points. The data that he has is just plain wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP) GALLAGHER: Yes, and those points that he was making pretty much mirror what the secretary of state's office has been doing since that election in November, the president still not able to accept the fact that President-elect Joe Biden won, that election has been validated now three different times.

That real-time fact-check of those essentially conspiracy theories that the president was spewing, it appears they're going to be doing the same thing again. I don't know if you can see behind me, they're setting up a press conference. The secretary of state's office, expected to speak in about an hour here.

Now, something else that they're looking into, Brianna, is just the criminality potentially of this conversation. The most senior state board of elections member has asked the secretary of state's office to look into whether or not that phone call with the president and the secretary of state amounted to some form of election fraud violation here in the state of Georgia.

And the district attorney in Fulton County, the new district attorney, issued a statement, Brianna -- I just want to read one thing from her today -- she said that she -- "Once the investigation is complete, this matter, like all matters we handle by our office based on the facts and the laws, I will enforce the law without fear or favor. Anyone who commits a felony violation in Georgia of Georgia law in my jurisdiction will be held accountable."

KEILAR: All right, we'll see what comes of that. Dianne, thank you so much. And, Kaitlan, reporting from Dalton, Georgia, we appreciate your report as well.

Matthew Seligman is special counsel for Election Integrity at the Campaign Legal Center, and he's also taught a course on disputed presidential elections at Harvard Law School. Matthew, thank you so much for being with us and a Happy New Year to you.

When you listened to this conversation, you said that you saw two crimes possibly being committed under Georgia code. The first one, you said, was intentional interference with performance of election duties. Explain that to us.

TEXT: Intentional Interference with Performance of Election Duties: Any person who intentionally interferes with, hinders, or delays or attempts to interfere with, hinder, or delay any other person in the performance of any act or duty authorized or imposed by this chapter shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. Georgia Code 21-2-597.

MATTHEW SELIGMAN, SPECIAL COUNSEL FOR ELECTION INTEGRITY, CAMPAIGN LEGAL CENTER: Thanks for having me on, Brianna, it's great to be here. So the first theory of criminal liability that I see in this conversation is that Georgia law makes it a crime to intentionally interfere with or hinder or delay an election official's performance of his duties.

And state election law requires Secretary Raffensperger to tabulate, compute and canvass the presidential votes as certified by the counties in November, and he's already done that. The president on this phone call seems to be pressuring the secretary to change that canvass. And that sounds to me like it might be intentionally interfering with Secretary Raffensperger's canvass.

KEILAR: That's very interesting.

And then the other possible crime that you say the president committed is, quote, "criminal solicitation to commit election fraud." Explain that.

TEXT: Criminal Solicitation to Commit Election Fraud: A person commits the offense of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud in the first degree when, with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a felony under this article, he or she solicits, requests, commands, importunes, or otherwise attempts to cause the other person to engage in such conduct. Georgia Code 21-2-604

SELIGMAN: That's right. Georgia law also makes it a crime to solicit or request that someone violate the election laws. And so it also sounds like the president is asking Secretary Raffensperger to commit a crime.

Now, it's a little less clear that the president committed this crime, I think, because the scope of the legal duties that this second provision applies to is a bit narrower, so I think that's less clear. But the first legal violation, I think, is much stronger.

KEILAR: And in the case of a state criminal prosecution, you know, if that's something that somehow came to fruition here in the next few weeks, that would be something the president could not pardon himself from. What if there's a prosecution after he leaves office?

SELIGMAN: That's correct. The president's power under the United States Constitution to pardon, is to pardon offenses against the United States. That is, federal crimes. These are state crimes, and the president has absolutely no power to pardon himself or anyone else for violations of state law.

[14:10:12]

KEILAR: Do you think that there will be any sort of prosecution or investigation in Georgia?

SELIGMAN: It's hard to say for two reasons. First, there are so many political and policy questions that go into whether a prosecutor chooses to bring a criminal prosecution. The second -- and I think the most complicated -- aspect of this potential criminal case is that it depends so much on what the president actually believes.

In this phone call, he repeated numerous debunked conspiracy theories that there's definitive proof are false. But nonetheless, we don't know whether he actually believes them or not. If he knows they're false, then the criminal case is a lot stronger. But if he's really bought into them and he really believes all of these conspiracy theories, then it's a lot harder to say that he intentionally was trying to get Secretary Raffensperger to violate his legal duties. So ultimately it's going to depend on how prosecutors interpret the

president's incoherent and sometimes inconsistent statements on that phone call.

KEILAR: Matthew, thank you so much for clearing some of this up, we appreciate it. Matthew Seligman.

SELIGMAN: Thanks very much.

KEILAR: I want to bring in Michael Smerconish, who is the host of CNN's "SMERCONISH." He's also a CNN political analyst. Michael, a Happy New Year to you. And I wonder if you think the president honestly believes all of this stuff that he's saying, or was this just a phone call about throwing anything against the wall even if it's unverifiable just so he can try to convince election officials to change the results in a state that he lost?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Brianna, Happy New year to you as well. I think that Matthew just nailed it, it all goes to whether there's the requisite criminal intent. And if the president believes what he's saying in that call. If he believes that he's been truly victimized, that he's the victim of widespread fraud, then I think it's a very difficult case to prosecute. It's a Rorschach test.

As a matter of fact, it's a survey question on my website today, where I'm asking people, do you think he believes it? The vast majority think he does not believe it, and he's seeking to manipulate the result.

But if he buys into all those thoughts that he's sharing that are unsubstantiated and have been debunked, it makes it a very hard case to prosecute.

KEILAR: But there's the president saying, I need 11,000 votes -- what did he say, give me a break, he said to them. He seems, in that regard, to know very clearly that he needs one -- he wants one more than Joe Biden had.

SMERCONISH: True. And you would think, to his benefit, he would have said there's been an error here that needs to be corrected, and that's why the number is 11,780. So that mitigates against it.

But, you know, it reminds me, frankly, of the Ukraine telephone call for which he ended up being impeached. And it was a very similar circumstance, in that people wanted to read a seemingly straightforward telephone conversation and transcript different ways depending largely on their political view of the world.

KEILAR: Conservative -- wait, Michael, explain that, why do you think -- you think it's two different ways just based on someone's impression, their view of the world?

SMERCONISH: I do. I mean, I look at the way this very story is being covered today and discussed, and to go into conservative media is to hear, well, the president is aggrieved and he's angry about it, and so consequently of course -- this is not me speaking, I'm just trying to tell you what I've heard throughout the course of the day today -- so of course, you know, he's taking up his argument with the top election official in the state of Georgia, and that's Brad Raffensperger.

KEILAR: OK. And then on the other side, people who believe the facts of the case about how the votes tally up in Georgia see this very differently?

SMERCONISH: Well, the other side is to say he couldn't possibly believe any of this because 60 or so legal challenges have all failed. There's a disconnect between the type of thinking that he exhibited in that phone call and what has actually been litigated on his behalf.

Not even Rudy Giuliani int he Pennsylvania federal litigation would say that there was fraud that had occurred in the commonwealth. I mean, that which gets said in social media mirrors that which we heard in that phone call yesterday. Frankly, that's not what they've alleged in different litigation.

KEILAR: I'm so curious, Michael, to get your point of view on what you see happening in the Senate, because you have a number of Republicans who are going to contest the electoral vote count on Wednesday, and then you have some who are breaking with their Republican colleagues. Senator Tom Cotton, who was one of Trump's staunchest supporters, is opposing this plan and he is getting attacked by the president for it.

In a tweet, Trump labeled Republicans who don't object to the results as the Surrender Caucus, who "will go down in infamy as weak and ineffective 'guardians' of our nation."

TEXT: Donald J. Trump: The "Surrender Caucus" within the Republican Party will go down in infamy as weak and ineffective "guardians" of our Nation, who were willing to accept the certification of fraudulent presidential numbers!

[14:15:08]

KEILAR: And I wonder, you know, what do you think about this divide in the Republican Party over this call about whether or not to contest?

SMERCONISH: I hate to be so cynical, but I think that each is acting with an eye toward 2024. And that Josh Hawley -- by being the first in the Senate among the Republican senators to say, hey, I'm going to buy into this, I'm going to play along on Wednesday and contest the election -- was seeking to lay claim to that Trump constituency, I guess leaving Cotton nowhere to go but to be the opponent. The president himself obviously is a player in this mix, and so too is Vice President Pence. I think they're all very forward-looking.

What I'm most interested in seeing, Brianna, is what the president says tonight. Because here, you've got the entire power of the United States Senate hanging in the balance, control of the Senate hanging in the balance, and the president, through his repeated contesting of the election results, is denying Senators Perdue and Loeffler the best argument they have to motivate that Republican base. And that argument is to say that we, your Georgia United States

senators, are the bulwark that stands before all-Democratic control of the House, the Senate and the White House. But as long as this fiction is pursued, that somehow the election is unresolved, they can't just make that case.

Think about it, the best argument the president could make tonight would be to go on that stage and to say, look, we ran a good race, but we lost. And now it's up to you, Georgia. Because without these two keeping their positions, Democrats control everything. But of course he can't say that because of everything else that you're describing.

KEILAR: Yes. he cannot say, look, these folks will be a check on protecting my legacy, he is --

SMERCONISH: Right.

KEILAR: -- as you said, stealing that argument from himself even.

Michael, it's great to see you. Michael Smerconish, thanks for being on.

SMERCONISH: Yes, you too.

KEILAR: So next, the real crisis that the president thinks is being exaggerated? One American dying of COVID every 33 seconds.

And the failure to get life-saving vaccines into people's arms, now the FDA is considering giving half doses of the Moderna vaccine to people under 55. We're going to get to the bottom of this with a doctor.

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[14:21:49]

KEILAR: On the right side of your screen, you can see the current coronavirus numbers here in the United States, more than right now 20 million cases and 350,000 deaths. Those are verified figures. But President Trump tweeted over the weekend that he believes those numbers are exaggerated.

Let's discuss this with Dr. Geeta Nayyar, she is an affiliated assistant professor of medicine at the University of Miami. And you know, Dr. G., I wonder how you feel at this point, more than nine months into this pandemic, with the death toll that we are facing here, when you hear the president making a claim like that?

GEETA NAYYAR, AFFILIATED ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE, UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI: Sure. Brianna, first, Happy New Year, great to see you.

KEILAR: Happy New Year.

NAYYAR: You know, this -- thank you, thank you. You know, across the board this is very disappointing, right? Here we are, January 2021, and the reality of the pandemic being challenged by our very own president.

You know, my answer to this is let's invite both President Trump, Governor DeSantis to come spend a day in the life with a frontline worker. I'd love to have them join me in my clinic, join any of my colleagues in the ICU and the E.R., assist in the intubation of a patient, look them in the eye during an intubation, go outside to the waiting room and talk to their family members who have questions, who want to know what happened, how it could have been prevented, and they their loved one died.

I mean, this is the reality of what we're dealing with, and I think our political leadership needs to step into the shoes of a frontline worker and really experience it, and then add that perspective to their policies.

KEILAR: And I'm so glad that you highlight that. I think sometimes it's sort of unfathomable, the totality of loss in this country. But then I think you also have the trauma of a lot of frontline workers that you were describing, these are their daily experiences.

I do, Dr. G., want to get your assessment of where we are on the vaccine at this point, because the first recipient in the U.S. to receive the Pfizer vaccine just got her second and final dose, and now there is debate over delaying the second dose for other folks in order to speed up distribution of the first dose. Is that a good idea?

NAYYAR: So the bottom line is this has been anything but Warp Speed, right, Brianna? What we're seeing here in Florida, frontline workers, many community physicians have not been able to actually get the vaccine themselves. The Palm Beach County Health Department advertised to seniors 65 and older that they could come get the vaccine. Folks were sitting outside like it was Black Friday, only to have the clinic doors open and no vaccine was realized.

We have got to start looking at the numbers, assessing our weaknesses. We are now seeing two thirds of every vaccine that's been distributed, is sitting in a freezer instead of getting into individuals' arms. And the first arms they need to get into is frontline workers.

We're failing, we're failing at this and we need to take the time to look at the logistics, look at the communication areas and the coordination of care that is failing, so that we can get to 100. You and I are moms, if my little one came home with a score of 20 percent, right? We were promised 20 million Americans were going to be vaccinated by the end of the year, and the reality is we've done 4 million and change. That is a failing grade.

[14:25:03]

For the record, my daughter's an A-plus student but the point is, our political leaders need to be held accountable. And when you're failing, you stop, you assess, you look at your weaknesses and you aim for 100.

We have the opportunity to change this. This is the endzone, right? We can't afford to fumble the ball, but we've got to work together, be honest about our weaknesses, which appear to be in our infrastructure, and address them. And we will get better each and every day.

KEILAR: Yes, there is too much at stake, we cannot fail at this. Dr. G., thanks for being with us.

NAYYAR: Thank you.

KEILAR: Next, it is the final 24 hours before a vote in Georgia determines the balance of power in Congress, and both Trump and Biden are making campaign stops there today. But Republican officials are worried the president will do more harm than good after that disastrous call to Georgia's secretary of state. We're going to take you to Georgia, live.

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