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More Lawmakers Call for Trump's Removal as Schumer Says He'll Fire Sergeant-at-Arms; Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao Resigns; Biden Reveals DOJ Picks after Trump-Inspired Insurrection. Aired 1:30- 2p ET

Aired January 07, 2021 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[13:32:19]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: More and more lawmakers are calling for the immediate removal of the president in the wake of a domestic terror attack on the capitol.

I want to bring in chief political correspondent, Dana Bash, and also CNN senior legal analyst, Laura Coates, and CNN political analyst, Carl Bernstein, all with us.

Dana, to you first.

I know you have some new reporting. But also, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer says that he will fire the current sergeant-at-arms when he is majority leader.

Tell us about this.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Let's start with the last thing you asked, about the sergeant-at-arms.

I have not talked to a Senator or a staff member who was not really angry at the sergeant-at-arms for not being more prepared. So that is not surprising at all.

Also, you know, Bri -- we covered the Hill together -- the tradition -- not always the case -- but the tradition is for the party in charge to put their own sergeant-at-arms in place.

So that might have already happened. There have been holdovers, but that might have already happened.

Regardless, he is trying to make a point and say this should not have happened, this is out of bounds, out of control, and we need to make that clear.

With regard to new reporting, that is -- with regard to what's going on inside the White House, and that is I am told that there are top Republicans in Congress on the phone begging some of the president's senior advisers not to quit.

And people I'm talking about, like Pat Cipollone, the president's counsel, White House counsel, Robert O'Brien, the national security adviser.

My colleagues at the White House and elsewhere reported that kind of begging has been going on from other corners, please don't leave.

But I am told there's also pressure coming from Republicans on Capitol Hill. And the reason is national security.

And also, even though it is hard to almost say this with a straight face because we have seen a president completely out of control, but even in that context, the belief is those senior advisers can keep him even remotely at bay.

Even though it seems pretty hard to do, given what we've seen the last 24 to 48 hours, never mind the past two months.

KEILAR: I'm going to have you stay with me for a moment.

I want to go to Kaitlan Collins really quick to break out of our conversation.

I know, Kaitlan, you have new reporting. What can you tell us?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. CNN just confirmed the transportation secretary, Elaine Chow, is resigning from the president's cabinet.

She resigned yesterday, and is directly tying it, Brianna, to President Trump's response to the mob of his loyalists descending on Capitol Hill and breaching the halls of federal government.

[13:35:07]

And this is significant because she's the first cabinet secretary so far to resign as a result of what the president did yesterday.

We heard other people are considering it. We have seen some significant figures, including the deputy national security adviser. resign in wake of that.

But now this is Elaine Chao, transportation secretary, who has been here almost every day of his presidency, serving with him, working with him, defending him, and now is resigning as a direct result of what he did yesterday.

She worked closely with the president. She was obviously in the cabinet, a top-ranking official in the administration.

But also it's notable for another reason. She's married to Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell. You saw how McConnell turned on the president in a remarkable way yesterday that we haven't seen in four years Donald Trump has been in office.

So now we are learning Elaine Chao is the first person from the cabinet to resign as a result of what the president did yesterday.

But the question of course that's on everyone's mind, including inside the White House, is whether or not she's going to be the last.

We should remind viewers that this is likely the reason the president put out the statement overnight saying there will be an orderly transition of power January 20th.

There's real concerns in the White House that you're going to see a series of high-profile mass resignations coming out of the president's top-ranking officials. Elaine Chao is one of the first.

KEILAR: Wow. We just have never seen anything like this.

I wonder, Kaitlan, if you can explain to us how this would -- one of the things that's been discussed is the 25th Amendment, and cabinet members are considering that as an option on the table for a way to remove President Trump from office.

Obviously, if you have cabinet members who are resigning, that will change this calculation, or perhaps maybe was something that didn't have feet, if you will.

COLLINS: Yes. I think there's definitely been serious conversation about it. The question is whether or not it is serious enough to put into practice because that's something that would involve the vice president and several other officials.

I'm not sure if even acting cabinet officials can play a role in that. There are several acting officials in this administration, including at the Justice Department, at the Pentagon, at the Department of Homeland Security, all over the cabinet.

Those are questions that are being raised. But this is definitely a conversation.

We talked about the 25th Amendment during the Russia investigation. That was something that didn't seem to have a tight grasp on reality as something that could happen. This seems closer to it.

But people do still think we're more likely to see mass resignations like with Elaine Chao right now than something of that nature.

There are Republicans, people like Adam Kinzinger, on Capitol Hill who want to invoke the 25th Amendment. Because I think the concern that people have, you know, you might hear, well, we only have two weeks left, what's the point of doing that.

What we saw yesterday and the way the president responded, was reluctant to send out the National Guard as his loyalists were descending on Capitol Hill, it concerned people for what the next 13 days could look like, given that the president is in a desperate state of mind, more so than he has been given the election loss.

I think that's the concern. That's what's driving these conversations and playing a role in resignations that we could be seeing. KEILAR: All right. Kaitlan, thank you for sharing breaking news with

us.

I want to get back to the panelists to talk about this.

Carl Bernstein, to you.

What is your reaction to this, learning of the first cabinet resignation, transportation secretary, Elaine Chao, who is the Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's wife, as well?

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think, first of all, there really is an example of rats leaving the sinking ship.

And at the same time, the concern of McConnell, his wife, about the instability and madness of the president of the United States is real.

What's really called for is, yes, the 25th Amendment ought to be invoked.

If it can't be, I think there's growing view what has to be done is somehow Donald Trump, in the last two weeks of his presidency, must be put in some kind of constitutional straight jacket so that he cannot further endanger the national security of this country.

That legal mechanisms, as well as pressure from McConnell, from perhaps the joint leadership of both parties of Congress, calling on the president of the United States for either his resignation, for him to be isolated and with Mike Pence, the vice president.

Participating in some kind of consensus that says we have safely isolated the president of the United States so that he can no longer undermine the stability and national security interests of the United States.

Look, he has been acting like a madman. The word has been used to me for weeks and weeks. This has been well known.

[13:40:06]

There was a kind of inevitability, not necessarily the breaching of the capitol yesterday and getting inside the capitol, but he has been trying to provoke his followers, this cult, to cause some kind of provocation, indeed, that would let him stage a coup and stay in office.

He must be restrained. There's recognition by McConnell, by the vice president, by members of the cabinet that he must be restrained in the interest of national security and the people of this country, especially at this moment.

KEILAR: I am, in a moment, Laura, going to ask about the 25th Amendment requirements and sort of how that might work.

I want to get Dana's reaction to the reporting on Elaine Chao resigning. BASH: Listen, it is huge. Carl makes a very fair point that Chao, as

other cabinet members that have been there since the start, and she's one of them, have had to suck it up, turn the other cheek. People might be even more critical saying they were complicit.

When you are transportation secretary, perhaps you're a little further removed from the crazy and from the madman. But being a Trump cabinet official is something that will always be with her.

She was the longest-serving cabinet member for George W. Bush. She has been in this town a very long time, a very loyal Republican, even separate and apart from the fact that she happens to be married to Mitch McConnell.

She is an immigrant. She came here to the United States when she was very young. And she has that sensibility.

And, you know, certainly would be wonderful to be able to talk to her about why this was the final straw.

But there's a message being sent, no question about it.

One of the issues, one of the issues and one of the questions I had going -- as we were looking at the 25th Amendment and whether or not it would be invoked, is whether or not someone like her, because of her deep roots in Washington and in the traditional Republican Party, never mind public service, whether she would be one of those that would try to rally the cabinet for the 25th Amendment.

She clearly decided it's better for her to resign.

KEILAR: Clearly.

So walk us through -- I see you shaking your head, Laura, because you see, obviously, the ramifications of her stepping aside as there's discussion about the 25th Amendment.

Walk us through the requirements of the 25th Amendment but also the obstacles to executing this.

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: The reason I'm shaking my head, of course, if there's one less cabinet member, that's one less person who could band together with the vice president of the United States, which is who needs to actually initiate the 25th Amendment.

Remember, it came to be after the assassination of JFK when Congress was wondering, what do we do in the event that a president is not deceased but is somehow incapacitated, and who will we delegate power to in the line of succession.

What they came up was this idea that the vice president of the United States, along with either the majority of cabinet members or with a commission that was created in Congress, decide independently whether the president had been incapacitated, they had to be able to band together with the vice president to decide to delegate power to him. The commission was never created, Brianna. Yet another indication of

how those "in case of emergency break glass" things we think are part of our Constitution were exposed as not being there.

But he still could go with the cabinet. Then what happens next is, if they decide, the majority of the cabinet and vice president, that President Trump should no longer be in office, and the power would go to Pence.

Then President Trump would be able to appeal that and say, actually, thank you for your concern, but I still retain my faculties, I am not incapacitated and I'm still the president of the United States.

Then it goes back in a volley to the vice president and the cabinet to say, we want to appeal to Congress and allow them to make the determination.

They have 48 hours to have a hearing, but they have 21 days to render a final decision. Today is less than 21 days from the inauguration.

So they could run out the clock. Because the entire time that Congress would evaluate and deliberate, Mike Pence would be the president of the United States of America.

The reason I am shaking my head, thinking about the transportation secretary, is that she has diluted, in some fashion, the ability of members of the cabinet to band together with the vice president.

But she's also lessened the requirement for what a majority would now be.

[13:45:00]

But I am left ultimately to wonder this question, Brianna. What was her motivation? Is the reason she has resigned because the rest of the cabinet was unable to come to consensus?

It seems very contradictory to me, and counterintuitive, that she would think it is time to leave Washington. But the reason she chose to do so, the president of the United States, should remain there.

KEILAR: And, Carl, in addition to this talk of the 25th Amendment -- which I mean, that seems almost like shooting the moon, seems very unlikely that this is going to proceed -- House Democrats are circulating articles of impeachment.

And this seems like another avenue where it seems really hard to imagine it actually working out in two weeks.

So talk about that a little bit. But also talk about your concerns here for the next 13 days.

BERNSTEIN: It is very difficult to imagine how you can have impeachment and a Senate trial within the allotted time left for the Trump presidency.

It is very unlikely. It has the same hurdles for the 25th Amendment.

I want to get back to the idea of a constitutional straight jacket on the president.

Because there's, right now, at this moment, the moral force that the vice president of the United States has, the leadership of both parties, Chuck Schumer and McConnell and Pelosi, of the Congress of the United States.

They are terribly worried and they understand that the president is not mentally stable, unable to discharge his responsibilities in a safe manner that defends the Constitution and people of the United States.

So there are means. If they were to use their moral authority, and particularly the vice president, to say out loud, we are making sure the president is isolated.

He remains the president, but we are going to make sure that nothing -- orders that he gives, that we regard as dangerous to the interest of the United States.

He needs to be isolated in a way he can no longer do the kind of damage and danger to this country that he has been doing for months actually.

So this notion of a constitutional straight jacket but using the moral persuasion of the vice president especially has, if he were to combine with the congressional leadership.

Because there's a real necessity to isolate and keep this president from further actions such as we saw yesterday.

KEILAR: I wonder what you think about that, Dana. And also, what about the possibility of a censure?

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BASH: That also, sure. A real possibility. That's a real possibility of a censure.

I mean, more and more you are seeing Republicans trying to figure out if there's a way to punish the president beyond just rhetoric. And that's a really good question.

And one question I don't know the answer to -- maybe Laura does -- is whether or not he can be censured after he is already gone just to prove a point.

Whether that's something to get in the history books, that what the president has done, particularly and especially yesterday, inciting that crowd to do exactly what they did, to go to the capitol and do the unthinkable, whether that's possible given there are only two weeks left in the Trump presidency.

KEILAR: What do you think, Laura? COATES: Well, you know, censure is a symbolic action. I think the idea

of a president of the United States inciting an insurrection requires something far more tangible.

This goes back to the words of even President-Elect Joe Biden yesterday in response to this, saying, at times, the words of the president can inspire, and at times, the words of the president can incite. And we saw that very thing happen.

I think with the two weeks we have left, it is incumbent on members of Congress to respond in a holistic, not merely a symbolic way, to the idea that, for the very first time since the 1800s, there was a breach of the people's house.

I want to make it clear to everyone because that seems to always get lost here. When I look at the damage across the capitol, I wonder whose tax dollars are going to replace that.

I also wonder to what extent they recognize it was a breach on the United States of America and the people of the United States of America.

So symbolic censure might be one possibility.

But we can also need to look at the idea of what could possibly be the federal and state level charges that could be levied against those that carried out perhaps the incitement, those that have pretended to be patriots and the pretext of failed election in their minds, but instead have actually committed crimes.

And that's where we go because, I have to tell you, there are a lot of laws on the books with perhaps short statute of limitations.

[13:50:05]

But federal destruction of property, sedition, conspiracy, the idea of trespass on federal grounds, those do not have very short statute of limitations periods. They will outlast into after January 20th.

I think that will be renewed focus in a far-less symbolic way.

KEILAR: I'm going to have you all stand by.

I need to get in a quick break here Because ahead, we have Joe Biden as well as Nancy Pelosi, who may speak to some of these issues that we have been talking about. What is the future for the president? What will Congress do?

We'll be right back with that.

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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know you will have a lot of questions, but I want to focus on the issue today on the judiciary, as well as we're talking about the attorney general's office. And so I'll have plenty of time to answer the questions I know you

desperately want to ask about everything from the 25th Amendment, on. I will not speak to that today.

I want this to be the issue that we focus on, because I think it's so important.

Yesterday, in my view, one of the darkest days in the history of our nation. An unprecedented assault on our democracy, an assault literally on the citadel of liberty, on the United States capitol itself.

An assault on the rule of law. An assault on the most sacred of American undertakings, ratifying the will of the people in choosing the leadership of their government.

All of us here grieve the loss of life, grieve the desecration of the people's house.

But we -- what we witnessed yesterday was not dissent, it was not disorder, it was not protest. It was chaos.

They weren't protesters. Don't dare call them protesters. They were a riotous mob, insurrectionists, domestic terrorists. It's that basic. It's that simple.

I wish we could say we couldn't see it coming. But that isn't true. We could see it coming.

The past four years we've had a position who has made his contempt for our democracy, our Constitution, the rule of law clear in everything he has done.

He unleashed an all-out assault on our institutions of democracy from the outset. Yesterday was what the culmination of that unrelenting attack.

He had the free press who dared to question his power. Repeatedly calling the free press the enemy of the people.

[13:55:01]

Language, at the time he first used it, I and others said language has long been used by autocrats and dictators around the world to hold onto power. The enemy of the people.

Language that is being used now by autocrats and dictators across the world. Only this time, with the imprimatur of an out-going president of the United States of America.

He's attacked our intelligence services, who dared tell the American people the truth about the effort of a foreign power to elect him four years ago.

Choosing instead to believe the word of Vladimir Putin over the word of those who have sworn their allegiance to this nation, many of whom have risked their lives in the service of this nation.

He deployed the United States military, tear-gassing peaceful protesters, in pursuit of a photo opportunity in the service of his reelection, even holding the Bible upside-down.

The action that led to an apology from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and an outspoken denunciation of the use of military for domestic political purposes, from scores of former military leaders and secretaries of defense, led by Secretary Cheney.

He thought he could stack the courts with friendly judges who would support him, no matter what. They were Trump judges, his judges.

He went so far as to say he needed nine judges on the Supreme Court, because he thought the election would end up in the Supreme Court and they would hand him the election.

He was stunned, truly stunned, when the judges he appointed didn't do his bidding, and instead acted with integrity, following the Constitution, upholding the rule of law, not just once or twice or three times, but over 60 times.

Let me say it, over 60 times. The more than 60 cases in state after state after state, and then at the Supreme Court as judges, including people considered, quote, "his judges, Trump judges," to use his words, looked at the allegations that Trump was making, and determined they were without any merit.

Nothing was judged to put this election in question or doubt by any of these judges.

You want to understand the importance of the democratic institutions in this country? Take a look at the judiciary in this nation.

Take a look at the pressure it was just subjected to by a sitting president of the United States of America.

At every level, the judiciary rose in the moment, did its job, acted with complete fairness and impartiality, with complete honor and integrity.

When history looks back at this moment we just passed through, I believe it will say our democracy survived, in no small part, because of the men and women who represent an independent judiciary in this nation.

We owe them a deep, deep debt of gratitude.

Then there's the attack on the Department of Justice, treating the attorney general as his personal lawyer and the department as his personal law firm.

Through it all, we've been hearing the same thing from this president -- my generals, my judges, my attorney general.

And then yesterday, a culmination of attack on our institutions of democracy. This time, the Congress itself.

Inciting a mob to attack the capitol, to threaten elected representatives of the people of this nation, and even the vice president, to stop the Congress from ratifying the will of the American people and the just-completed free and fair election.

Trying to use a mob to silence the voices of nearly 160 million Americans, who summoned the courage in the face of a pandemic that threatened their health and their lives, to cast that sacred ballot.

I made it clear from the moment I entered this race that what I believe was at stake. I said there was nothing less at stake than who we are as a nation, what we stand for, what we believe, what we will be.

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At the center of that belief is one of the oldest principles this nation has long held: We're a government of laws.