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House Democrats Eye Quick Impeachment Vote If Pence Rebuffs Attempt to Remove Trump from Office; Republicans Sources: Will Consider Voting for Second Trump Impeachment; Aides Warned Trump He'd Be Removed If He Didn't Condemn Mob & Concede. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired January 08, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A good Friday morning to you. It is a busy news morning. I'm Jim Sciutto. Poppy Harlow is off today. Democrats are now eyeing a quick impeachment vote of this president after the deadly riot on Capitol Hill and the president's comments encouraging it.

We're learning that judiciary aides are now working on impeachment articles paving the way for a possible vote in the coming days. Hours from now, House Democrats are holding talks about those next steps. Some Republican sources telling CNN that they would consider a second Trump impeachment.

One of those sources saying. We experienced the attack. We don't need long hearings on what happened. In the White House the president is desperately trying to salvage the last days of his imploding presidency perhaps insulate himself from legal trouble. Aides pressuring him to release the video, a scripted one in which he finally conceded that he lost the election and will be leaving in 12 days.

But it's far too late. Five people are now dead as a result of those rights including capitol police officer Brian Sicknick. Sources say a federal murder investigation will soon be opened into his death. We do begin though with CNN's Pamela Brown with breaking news this morning on the president's legal team. Pamela, what are you learning?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well I'm learning from sources, Jim that the White House counsel Pat Cipollone is considering resigning. I'm told from sources that he is considered this multiple times since the election but many people around him, senior staffers, members of Congress, they have encouraged him to stay on.

I'm told from sources that you know as we've been reporting Jim, Pat Cipollone has really been vocal and on the forefront of telling the president the legal boundaries following the election and the reality that he indeed did lose the election and as you know Jim, there have been suggestions from Michael Flynn and others to use executive orders to seize Dominion voting machines.

Pat Cipollone was vocal about this but it was - it couldn't be done and that was sort of the beginning of this and now of course, following the mayhem that we saw on Wednesday, his consideration continues to resign but at this point he is staying on. I am told that he is staying on out of his sense of duty.

One source close to Pat Cipollone told me that he is a "true public servant dedicated to the rule of law and his country." It appears Jim he's staying on at this point because he's concerned about the country and he's concerned about continuity of government and what would happen if he left as a couple weeks out from the president leaving office.

He has been instrumental behind the scenes in the past couple of days, first helping to facilitate the National Guard. I mean to the capitol building as you know they were late to arrive but Pat Cipollone was I'm told from sources key in making sure that they - that they got there and speeding things up and as you know as we've been reporting, he has been talking to the president as well as of yesterday with Mark Meadows, the Chief of Staff telling the president that these calls for him to resign are serious and that he needs to be more vocal and more serious in his rhetoric about condemning what we saw on Wednesday at the Capitol building.

And then as you know that video came out, he released that video. So this is significant that the White House counsel Pat Cipollone is considering resigning and of course he hasn't yet but it's certainly a possibility and we've seen other high profile people and the president administration cabinet members already resigned.

So, we'll have to wait and see and it is also worth noting Jim, very quickly you know as impeachment, as impeachment talks up all this of course raises questions of who would defend the president if it actually did come to that.

SCIUTTO: Yes, so just to be clear that he's still considering it or he's decided to stay for now out of a sense of duty.

BROWN: I'm sorry, he's still considering it but as of right now, he is - he's staying out of business and duty but it's still under consideration.

SCIUTTO: OK, I know - we know you'll stay on top of it. Pamela Brown, thanks very much. Lots of headlines to keep up with. Here's the other one. Imagine this, more on an impeachment conversation, the second impeachment of this president. Discussions coming in the next couple of hours among Democratic leadership.

CNN's Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill this morning. We had the deputy speaker on CNN earlier today say a vote could come as soon as next week. I wonder and again, I know that this conversation's going to happen a couple of hours so there's a lot we don't know yet but what is the latest you're hearing from your sources on the Hill about one, whether this vote is definite on impeachment and two, how quickly could it come.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, momentum is certainly buildings from all corners of the House Democratic caucus. Nancy Pelosi is full steam ahead I'm told from multiple sources who have engaged in conversations with her. She believes this president needs to be held accountable for what happened on Wednesday.

[10:05:00]

And she is not taking no for an answer at the moment. She forces - pushing Vice president Mike Pence to agree to the extraordinary moved to invoke the 25th amendment process that would essentially push the president out of office but with no indication that that is going to happen, Democrats plan to take matters into their own hand, even if they are unable to ultimately get the president out of office before he leaves on January 20.

I'm told in a matter of days, they are likely to bring to the floor, under a very expedited manner, the articles impeachment against the president. The language is still being drafted, various versions are going around House Democratic circles and among members who serve on the House Judiciary Committee.

But one of the articles they are looking at is inciting an insurrection which will be part of this language. The question ultimately though is when will they do it. We're hearing potentially early next week, maybe mid next week, maybe that even moves up after this conversation from today but then will there be enough time to even have it get it done in the United States Senate.

Another big question but there are some Republican senators who are sounding open to the idea of voting to remove the president from office including Senator Ben Sasse of Nebraska who said this, this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BEN SASSE (R-NE): The House, if they come together and have a process, I will definitely consider whatever articles they might move because as I've told you, I believe the president has disregarded his oath of office.

He swore an oath to the American people to preserve, protect and defend the constitution. He acted against that. What he did was wicked.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: But the question is will it even come to the Senate. Mitch McConnell would have to schedule an impeachment trial, a vote in the Senate within just a matter of days and senate is not even coming back until January 19.

January 20 is when the official majority will switch to the Democrats taking control of the U.S. senate. McConnell's not saying what he will do. Unlikely it'll get to that point, Jim, but pressure is building, and some Republicans want the present accountable. Will they get the chance? That's a big question.

SCIUTTO: Well, they did confirm a Supreme Court justice in a week, we should note that. So, things have been fast tracked. Manu Raju on the Hill, thanks so much.

With us now is Republican Congressman French Hill of Arkansas. Congressman thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

REP. FRENCH HILL (R-AR): Happy New Year, Jim.

SCIUTTO: So, Democratic leadership appear to be moving forward with a vote at least sometime next week on impeachment. Will you consider a vote to impeach the president?

HILL: I'd like to see what their thought process is Jim but look I don't know that we need more brinkmanship here in the final 12 days of the Trump administration. I think we need more leadership. I agree with some of your reporting about where Joe Biden, the president elect is which is shouldn't we be putting the attention on the future and having a safe sound and appropriate transfer of power at noon on January 20 instead of calling all the attention into the passions of the House over this next 12 days to pursue another impeachment?

I don't know that that's the wisest counsel that the Speaker has received.

SCIUTTO: I understand the desire to look forward but you yourself have said publicly that the president bear's responsibility for this riot that stormed the capitol here. If that is true, why should he remain in office for another 12 days and why should Americans be confident that he will protect them, protect the Congress, protect the constitution during those 12 days?

HILL: Right, well, his final video yesterday which was way over a month late in my view, it should have been delivered on December 14 when the electoral college certified the vote indicates that he's willing to work to that peaceful transfer of power and in my view that would be the best outcome for the American people and not to increase the passion, increase the victory all we have across this country over the next 12 days.

But as leaders in the House and the Senate come together with the president, vice president, president-elect and vice president-elect and have the proper transfer of power at noon on the 20.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this because as you know, that after that violent insurrection which I should note, you were in the building too and were at risk as these folks broke into the capitol building. If the president bears responsibility as you believe in inciting that, the two-thirds of your GOP colleagues who went back into that building hours later and still voted - still voted to overturn the results of American votes, certified in the state.

They still voted then to do that. Do you do you believe those colleagues bear responsibility for inciting this, for feeding this feeling that the election was stolen?

HILL: While, my colleagues on both sides of the aisle take responsibility for their own votes, my own analysis was the constitution, the 12th amendment, the Electoral Count Act of 1897 was very clear.

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We had a ministerial responsibility to count the votes, properly certified by the governors and the legislatures of the states and that's what we did and that's why I announced that I would vote the way I did but anyone who's proposed rhetoric that encourages people to think that on January 6 that we were going to have a different outcome, that we were going to overturn the election is contributing to misleading the American citizens and our voters and we should not do that.

Whether we're in the House, the Senate or in the White House.

SCIUTTO: So those Congress - members of Congress contributed to that feeling after the insurrection though. That's the amazing thing here, right? I mean not just before but after those rioters invaded the Capitol building, they went, and they cast their votes on the floor of the Congress to say this election was a lie.

So, I'm just asking do you believe they bear some responsibility for this?

HILL: No, I don't think they do Jim. Let's be candid. They have a right to represent their constituents and many constituents in this country were disturbed by what they saw on voting irregularities in many of the states including Pennsylvania and Arizona that were disputed.

Look, the courts didn't say there was, Attorney General Barr didn't say they were but they were, I think trying to represent the views of their constituents on the House floor that they were concerned about elect for election integrity which is why I support along with Senator Cotton and others an investigation into irregularities to bring confidence to people.

That if our states need to change their laws, let's give them the best practices to do that.

SCIUTTO: Final question, should the president lead this party after he leaves office or are you seeking - do you want new leadership for the Republican Party, going forward?

HILL: I want all of our Republican leaders from the state legislators to the governors to the members of Congress to remember the Republican platform and to talk about limited government, more opportunities for people at all income levels in our country, equal justice under the law, a robust national security, America's leadership in the world, our traditional Republican values are sound and they will be on January 21, 2021.

We have that obligation to those who vote for the Republican platform, that we'll work to earn their trust in the future.

SCIUTTO: Congressman French Hill, thanks for joining the broadcast this morning. HILL: Thank you Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, federal prosecutors say that they now plan to open a murder investigation into the death of a Capitol Hill police officer who died from injuries sustained in the attack on the Hill. We have a live update just ahead.

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SCIUTTO: Some top aides issued a blunt warning to President Trump forcefully denounce the riots that he incited on Capitol Hill or risk being removed from office. CNN White House correspondent John Harwood joins me now. John, I'm curious what and who moved the president here. Was it fear about legal jeopardy?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think Jim, there is fear of all kinds for Donald Trump. He's facing pressure like he's never felt before. Yes, there is the fear of legal jeopardy although he may try to pardon himself or - as well as pardon other people involved in this.

But there's also the tremendous blowback that he's gotten from members of his own party in the Senate, in the House. We heard from Ben Sasse this morning that he might support conviction in the Senate if the House impeaches.

Now I don't think he's likely to be removed from office ahead of time but he's certainly feeling that pressure and when he got more narrowly was pressure from people like Ivanka Trump, White House counsel Pat Cipollone who's now considering resigning, Chief of Staff Mark Meadows that he had to come out and say something that he hadn't said before which was acknowledge that he's not going to be president after January 20.

He did that last night in that video. That's something that his supporters needed to hear. They did hear it from him. Now everything Donald Trump only matters in the moment in which it happens and he just a few minutes ago tweeted out a different message saying the 75 million people who voted for me will have a giant voice, going forward but he recognizes right now that his voice has been diminished.

His legacy obviously has been a trashed as a result of this episode and he is reacting to that pressure.

SCIUTTO: Clearly. John Howard at the White House, thanks very much. Joining me now to discuss is Elliot Williams who's former Deputy Assistant Attorney General and a former federal prosecutor. Elliott, good to have you on this morning.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Good to see you Jim. SCIUTTO: So first, let's talk about the president's legal jeopardy

here in relation to the riot on Wednesday. The Acting U.S. attorney for DC, Michael Sherwin, appointed by Bill Barr, we should note here says that nothing really off limits year, that all actors will be investigated for their role including the president and was asked specifically about the president when he gave that answer here.

What is the actual legal jeopardy here? What's the standard for incitement if that's the right word of a riot like this?

WILLIAMS: Well Jim, I'm going to say words that I've always wanted to say but literally can I read you the Riot Act which does exist in federal law and no, this is a thing. There is a federal riot statute and it's when you have a public disturbance involving a group of more than three people in involving acts of violence, incitement to create that, is itself a federal crime.

[10:20:00]

And now the question is, did the president's statements prior to the riot and by any definition this was riot, right? Let's set that aside and put that to bed. Now did the president's statements prior to that, constitute incitement?

Now the statements he said were you know stand back and standby, be there be wild, we're going to walk down to the Capitol, remember this day forever, great patriots. That comes close but it's a question of is that incitement under the legal definition? He's definitely encouraging protest, but the question is could you criminally charge it.

At a minimum you could investigate it. The U.S. attorney is right to investigate it but it's hard to see whether the president could be convicted of it as a criminal offence.

SCIUTTO: Well, I mean obviously the legal standard is always higher. He did say march to the Capitol, and they did. I mean the next question is a political one. Would a Biden Department of Justice pursue that, right? Do you believe politically they would, I mean if the evidence supports?

WILLIAMS: There is certainly a political cost to prosecuting a former president and the Biden Justice Department who is sole responsibility when they walk in the door is to restore integrity to the Justice Department is going to have a very hard question to face about whether to do so.

But look, you know the problem Jim, is that he shouldn't be president right now in the first place. Congress failed a year ago to remove the person from the office and now we're sitting here quibbling about well, was he inciting violence and murder and riots when in reality we could have avoided all of this if Congress had done its constitutional duty and voted to remove him from office.

But they led by Republicans and many of his allies in the office failed to do so a year ago and that's why we're still here. SCIUTTO: OK. Self-pardon. It is remarkable that that's sort of just a

thing like is the president going to pardon himself and that was before Wednesday, right? Now it's CNN's reporting that the president's even more serious about this now talking to aides about it. You have an interesting point of view here, right?

That, that might be a self-destructive move from the president, making it more likely if prosecuted - prosecuted rather than that. Tell us why you believe that.

WILLIAMS: Because here's the thing. In order for - you know so we're asking this question. Can a president pardon himself? Well, yes, he can. All he has to do is sign the paper. I could say today, I'm the King of Jamaica, right? And you know maybe it's legally valid, maybe it's not.

It's not but the point is nothing stops me from saying it. The way you test the validity of the pardon is by getting charged with a crime so imagine he issues that self-pardon, he's in effect inviting the future Justice Department to charge him with a crime so he can go into court and say well, I've been pardoned already, I've pardoned myself.

It's hard to see how any responsible court and we've seen over the last couple of weeks even conservative courts are consistently ruling against the president. You know, how any responsible court would look at a pardon like that where one acts as his own judge, jury and executioner and see it as valid.

So, it's almost like baiting the Biden or a future Justice Department and it will be fascinating to see if he did it.

SCIUTTO: Notable when you're king of Jamaica, please let me know. I want to go to the coronation, and I will bow down to Elliot Williams.

WILLIAMS: The food and the dancing are going to be lit. I tell you. Jim, you're high on the list, yes.

SCIUTTO: We need it. Elliot Williams, thanks very much.

WILLIAMS: Take care.

SCIUTTO: A federal murder investigation will be opened following the death of the Capitol Hill police officer from injuries sustained in the attack on the Capitol. CNN has the latest on that investigation next.

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[10:25:00]

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SCIUTTO: Federal prosecutors will soon open a murder investigation after a U.S. Capitol police officer died due to injuries, he suffered during Wednesday's chaos at the Capitol building. CNN justice correspondent Jessica Schneider joins me now. Jessica, what more do we know about this investigation? Do prosecutors

already have suspects in the death of this Capitol Hill police officer?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: We're learning more details about it, Jim. I mean this is a big deal because this is the federal murder investigation. This could lead to life imprisonment. It can even lead to the death penalty. We're waiting to hear more from investigators as to exactly how this capitol police officer died.

We know that he died as a result of injuries he sustained in that riot but no details just yet on who they might be seeking but we are seeing an array of criminal charges in every facet and there will be many more in the hours ahead.

That's what we're hearing from investigators, so prosecutors are looking at all avenues, every angle, every person involved in the riot Wednesday and that includes the president.

You know the Acting U.S. Attorney here in Washington telling reporters yesterday when he was asked if his team was looking into the role President Trump played inciting the crowd, we were told that they are looking at all actors.

That includes the president, that includes Rudy Giuliani who was also making calls during the pre-riot rally to go out and to combat and to fight. So, Jim, a lot of charges forthcoming. We've already seen four men that have been federally charged for their role in the riot. Those charges ranging from legally entering the capitol grounds to possessing a destructive device.

So, we're seeing all these charges and a lot more will be coming we're told in the hours and the days ahead here.

SCIUTTO: So, the FBI now has been releasing photographs taken from social media, television news footage, showing the faces of people who participated.