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Charges Begin for Wednesday's Capitol Event; President-elect Biden to Administer All Vaccine Doses; President Trump Will Skip Inauguration. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired January 08, 2021 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: So we're seeing all these charges, and a lot more will be coming, we're told, in the hours and the days ahead here.

TEXT: First Federal Charges Filed in Capitol Riot: Christopher Michael Alberts, Charged with one count of carrying or having access to firearms or ammunition on Capitol Grounds; Mark Jefferson Leffingwell, Faces three criminal counts and has not yet entered a plea; Lonnie Eli Zoffman, Charged with one federal count of possession of a destructive device and one D.C. criminal count of carrying a pistol without a license; Joshua Lloyd Pruitt, Charged with entering restricted grounds of the Capitol

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: So the FBI now has been releasing photographs taken from social media, television news footage showing the faces of people who participated, now asking for the public's help to identify them. By the way, we're -- and here you have a picture here, and I'll tweet this out so if you're watching now perhaps you can help.

I wonder though, Jessica, I mean, for so far, they have the pictures, right? I mean, some of these folks were livestreaming these events on their own social media accounts. Is this moving slowly from your perspective -- you've covered the Justice Department for some time -- or do they have a handle on this?

SCHNEIDER: Well, that's the big question because all of these people were at the Capitol, they were within arm's reach, presumably, of these officers, but now D.C. police, the FBI, they're looking for these people. And a lot of these people, Jim, have actually spoken out to their local newspapers --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SCHNEIDER: -- to local news outlets. So the question is, why aren't they bring apprehended or questioned or arrested more quickly?

You know, we heard from D.C. police yesterday, we heard from the acting U.S. attorney. They say at this point they're scouring social media, they're asking for the public's help, they're looking toward the hotels that these people might have stayed at. So there is some question as to why things aren't moving more quickly,

why these people aren't being apprehended more quickly. But their names -- their pictures are out there, in some cases, their names are out there. And investigators just trying to do what they can because obviously, thousands of people involved in this -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Listen, the arrests were swifter, as the vice president said and the data shows, after those protests in June, BLM, I mean, they were immediate, so it's a question. I know they're doing their best --

SCHNEIDER: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- but I also know you'll stay on top of that question as well.

SCHNEIDER: I will.

SCIUTTO: Jessica Schneider, thanks very much.

Well "The Wall Street Journal" editorial board -- of course the paper owned by Trump supporter Rupert Murdoch -- says that President Trump should resign, as we learn that at least two Republicans say they would consider voting to impeach the president -- or rather, convict him after a congressional impeachment. We'll have more, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:36:50]

SCIUTTO: Right now, at least two Republicans are signaling they would consider impeaching and removing President Trump. Talks of a second impeachment, amazingly growing among leaders in Washington.

This, as "The Wall Street Journal" editorial board -- conservative- leaning newspaper, longtime supporter of this president, owned by Rupert Murdoch, who has backed this president -- is denouncing his actions in relation to Wednesday, writing in part, "This goes beyond merely refusing to concede defeat. In our view it crosses a constitutional line that Mr. Trump hasn't previously crossed. It is impeachable." That's "The Wall Street Journal."

Joining me now to discuss this, what happens next? CNN senior political analyst David Gergen, he's served just a handful of presidents; and CNN national security commentator Mike Rogers, who of course chaired the House Intelligence Committee, a Republican. Good morning to both of you gentlemen.

David Gergen, you've watched, you've been in office, in positions when impeachment was pursued. Is impeachment of the president, in your view, justified here?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Absolutely, absolutely. This president -- anybody who incites a mob to violence, sends people up to Capitol Hill, doesn't protect the people who work on Capitol Hill, members of Congress, does not provide the kind of protection they deserved? He now has blood on his hands, five people have died, five people have died because this president went over the constitutional line. So I do think he ought to be held accountable.

I -- my personal preference is that he should no longer be president. I must tell you this, though, Jim, as someone who did work with a president who was -- you know, President Ford, who was working on these issues, had to work his way through them -- I'm also very sympathetic with Joe Biden.

And that is, CNN reported last night that he has very little appetite for an impeachment --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GERGEN: -- and I think we ought to give the president-elect some latitude on this.

All of us are very, very concerned about what happens with Donald Trump before January 20th; Joe Biden has to worry about what happens to the country after January 20th.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GERGEN: And toward that end, he needs to build a strong, a bipartisan base for going after Trump as he possibly can so it's not just a partisan issue and we're unable to heal the country.

SCIUTTO: Mike Rogers, that's the essential conflict here, right? Holding a president accountable for reprehensible behavior versus the politics of this. And I wonder as a Republican -- there are Republicans, we should note, who have said the president should be impeached. What's your view?

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: Yes, I'm -- you know, I'm kind of where Biden is. Does this serve the interests of the country on January 21st? And I'm going to argue probably likely not. And, listen, it was criminal, it was disgraceful, it was a disparagement to every man and woman who served this country and gave their life for this country. I mean, it gets my blood pressure up just thinking about this.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

ROGERS: But is it the right decision? I think we need a little less self-service on Capitol Hill and a little bit more public service, a little more statesmanship.

And I think Biden is trying to send a signal that listen, yes, we are angry, we're upset, we're a little worried about what he -- kind of crazy decisions he may make, given that he looks more like a cornered dog than a president. But it is the right thing to do to go through a very quick kind of impeachment process in the last 12 days of office to prove a point?

[10:40:18]

I kind of -- I agree, I'm more worried about January 21st, going forward, than I am the next 12 days. I think everyone set the guardrails, they've sent a pretty clear message like a 16-year-old with a new car, you know, and the dad says, you know, anything wrong, I don't care if your grade goes down a notch, you're going to lose the keys to your car.

I think he got that message, it's almost the way you're going to have to talk to him in the last 12 days. But impeachment --

SCIUTTO: Well, listen --

ROGERS: I just don't think it serves the interests of the United States in the long run.

SCIUTTO: The thing is, we're talking -- we aren't talking about the keys to the car, right? We're talking about the nuclear codes here.

And I get you -- I do get your point, Mike Rogers, I just wonder, to both of you -- and this is a remarkable question to ask, but it's not just coming out of my imagination, right? Because members of this president's administration, people serving him have raised the possibility he could do more damage now.

I mean, Mick Mulvaney said -- his former chief of staff who's now resigned as the special envoy to Northern Ireland over this -- he said the only reason many people are staying is because they're worried he will do worse. That's from inside the administration. That's a remarkable reality (INAUDIBLE) to hear from them.

And then, David, to you first, should people watching here be concerned that even though it's 12 days, that this president might endanger more Americans between now and then?

GERGEN: I think it's absolutely possible. You know, we just turned around a carrier in the -- you know, to the Gulf, heading toward Iran. We don't know what that's -- we don't know how far -- how close that is to potential conflict.

I think we ought to be very concerned about it, we had the carrier coming this way and now it's gone back.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GERGEN: You know, so it's out there.

I don't think -- if I could ask Mike Rogers a question, Jim, I'm just really curious: One option, which could be on the table, which I would not prefer -- I think it's too weak, but it -- could you, if you had a vote of censure, could you get the Republicans on board for that?

SCIUTTO: That's a good --

GERGEN: Could you at least get -- have a bipartisan vote of censure? That's what they did to Joe McCarthy back in '54 --

SCIUTTO: Yes, yes.

GERGEN: -- and it really helped get him out of there. SCIUTTO: Mike Rogers?

ROGERS: Listen, I think absolutely, David. And here's the other thing -- I said this yesterday -- I think it's important. If I were the vice president, I would actually convene a meeting, you don't even have to have the vote on the 25th Amendment to send a signal that there are guardrails, that, Mr. President, you don't get to do exactly anything you want.

And it also sends a signal to our professional national security infrastructure that everybody hold your powder here, don't do anything crazy in the next 12 days. It's a terrible way to run a country, it's a -- but we've crossed that threshold.

And I do think that we -- and I agree with David on this -- a little deference to Biden on this because people are angry and upset and everybody wants their pound of flesh. I'm angry, I'm upset, but we need to think about what happens next. So if you put the guardrails on, I like this idea of a censure, I think that would be wholly appropriate.

And by the way, you'd look at the incitement language. When you go back and look at the rally language of people who are -- I mean, using words like fight and combat and go wild? It's pretty hard to argue you didn't incite that.

SCIUTTO: Wow.

ROGERS: And that's why every member of Congress should have to sit through the police officer's funeral in the Rotunda, and take account of their actions because they do have consequences. As a matter of fact, the president should have to sit there as well and I'd put him in the back row.

SCIUTTO: Yes, yes. It's a great point there, right? About that language. And I should just remind viewers, if you don't know, Mike Rogers, he served in the FBI, he knows a thing or two about the law.

David Gergen, Mike Rogers, thanks to both of you, I'm sure we're going to have lots more to discuss in the coming days.

GERGEN: Thanks, Jim.

ROGERS: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: This just in to CNN, President-elect Joe Biden will aim to release every available dose of coronavirus vaccine when he takes office in 12 days, that it is a break from the Trump administration's strategy of holding back half of U.S. vaccine production to ensure that second doses are available. This gets to the urgency of the problem right now. Kristen Holmes joins us now.

I mean, this has been raised before, the idea of being -- get some immunity now with that first dose -- perhaps 50 percent as opposed to the 90 percent -- as a way just to kind of stem the bleeding here, right? So this is an important potential move. KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Jim, this would be a

complete shift in the distribution strategy as we know it, a transition official telling our colleague, Sara Murray, that essentially the president-elect believes that they should stop holding back any single doses so they can get more shots in the arms of Americans now.

So what does this mean and why is it important? Well, as we know, as you said, the Trump administration is sitting on millions of doses because they say it is necessary to ensure that the Americans who get the first dose, get the second dose of this two-dose vaccine.

[10:45:11]

But this is a very big gamble on the part of the incoming administration, there is a reason that the Trump administration has held them back. You would be relying very heavily on Moderna and Pfizer to ensure that they are producing at a rate that actually meets this.

Because, remember, there's only a small window here in which you can get both the vaccines, and there is no data that shows that only one dose is actually effective in terms of the vaccine.

Now, one thing I will point out here is that we have spoken to numerous health officials, and we've heard Dr. Fauci say it as well. They really believe that the production will be ramped up this month and next month.

But this is something we've talked about, this is something we've heard before so it's going to have to be something we wait and see. But clearly, they are putting the priority of getting those first doses into people's arms immediately.

SCIUTTO: How urgent is it? Four thousand people are dying a day. They were vaccinated, they wouldn't be dead. Kristen Holmes, thanks for staying on top of it.

Coming up next, Georgia's Republican secretary of state calls out members of his own party for refusing to stand up to President Trump. This after a wild week that began with President Trump pressuring him to find votes to overturn Georgia's election results.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAD RAFFENSPERGER (R), GEORGIA STATE SECRETARY: It's also a shame that many people, political leaders, elected political leaders in the Republican Party didn't have the courage to stand and say, Mr. President, here's what the real numbers are, and I believe the real numbers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:51:10] SCIUTTO: The breaking news just in to CNN, President Trump has tweeted that he will not attend Joe Biden's inauguration on January 20th, as presidents have done for generations in this country, to acknowledge a peaceful transfer of power -- the president will not attend. Jeremy Diamond is at the White House now.

And, Jeremy, there's been this talk of a change in tone from the president or that statement yesterday, finally indicating he supports a peaceful transition. But in fact, if he's not attending the inauguration, how is he supporting a peaceful transition?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, he's certainly not sending the signal to the country that he offered. You know, yesterday in that message, he talked about healing and reconciliation, a time to bring back calm? That was in the script that the president was reading. This is the real Donald Trump, what you are seeing here, as we often do, on Twitter.

The president saying that he will not be going to inauguration on January 20th, becoming only the fourth president in American history not to attend his successor's inauguration, and the first president since 1869. So certainly the first president in modern American history, recent American history not to attend his successor's inauguration, and only the fourth ever.

And we should not that it comes at a time not only just days after we saw this insurrection that happened on Capitol Hill, where the president incited a mob of supporters to go to Capitol Hill and storm the halls of Congress, but also, in the wake of that, we have seen a number of Republicans, a growing number of Republicans, encouraging the president to strike a more amicable tone and to try and bring about that peace and reconciliation.

Even Laura Ingraham, the conservative firebrand commentator, just last night, was urging President Trump to attend Joe Biden's inauguration. And so I think this also likely rules out the possibility that President Trump will be inviting President-elect Biden to the White House for that traditional visit that typically happens days after inauguration.

President Obama, back in 2016, invited President Trump -- I think it was one or two days after his election -- to the White House.

SCIUTTO: Yes, of course, and gave briefings and acknowledged the victory, et cetera, a thousand different steps.

David Gergen, the president already had, as a parting shot, an alleged incitement to a deadly riot. And now he will add one more, 12 days from now, by denying that step that presidents have done since the mid-19th century, attending their successor's inauguration. Tell us the significance of this to his legacy, what remains of it.

GERGEN: Well, he's absolutely a sore loser, isn't he, Jim? And you contrast --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GERGEN: -- what he said last night, and it just proves how false those words were last night in that video. A friend told me it looked like a hostage video, that, you know, he was forced -- he was forced to make those statements and he sent out tweets today that make it clear he didn't really believe what he was saying.

And I think for him not to come is the -- is an ultimate insult. You know, there are a lot of people who are going to be glad he's not there because he would distract a lot of attention, it would be a lot about the Biden-Trump dynamic on stage. And we'll be spared that at least.

But nonetheless, this is wrong. And if we're going to heal the country, we have to -- Trump has to play a part in that, in bringing his base around and to say we're going to be part of the normal politics and when we lose, we lose. But we'll try to take it back next time. I just -- it would be so much better for the country, I think this is -- you know, he's just so insulting in so many ways, such a crybaby, it's just disgusting.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you about the real security implications here. I've been speaking to folks in law enforcement and national security. Following Wednesday, they are deeply concerned about a repeat on Inauguration Day, that many of these same violent people will return and that's one of the reasons why we're seeing the deployment of National Guardsmen by a factor of six.

[10:55:18]

Their presence in D.C. sextupled yesterday as a security precaution, they've ringed the Capitol building with this much higher fencing, similar to what you have around the White House right now.

By not attending, is the president further fueling folks like that, not just to not accept his loss, but to protest on that day?

GERGEN: That's an interesting question. I'm not so sure about that. My hope would be -- of course, hoping anything for Trump (ph) to do that's decent usually is in vain, but -- my hope would be that he would tell his followers to stay home, that he's going to -- he's not going to be there, they shouldn't be there. And I think that would -- I think it would be -- it would lessen these concerns.

I must say, Jim, I think we're going to be in a period for months to come when higher security alerts are going to be prevailing all over Washington. It's just -- don't you feel that, it's in the air, there's just a sense here, and I --

SCIUTTO: Well --

GERGEN: -- I've heard a couple of stories over the last -- just the last couple days about the security, you know, security concerns were skyrocketing.

SCIUTTO: Yes. It's not just a feel, David, I will tell you, that very risk has been mentioned to me, because these groups have not disappeared. And, by the way, dozens --

GERGEN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- hundreds of them who were in that building, the Capitol, are still out and free. And I saw some of them wandering around the Hill yesterday, when I was up there. These groups have not disappeared, the threat has not disappeared in the view of U.S. law enforcement.

Jeremy Diamond, do we -- so here is one last petty, insecure parting shot -- and damaging and dangerous one from the president. Do we know what else his plans are for these next 12 days?

DIAMOND: That is what they're going to start to contemplate now at the White House. You know, aides to the president have tried to get him not only to give up his attempts to undermine the peaceful transfer of power, but also try to get him to start focusing on his last days in office, on his post-presidency. That is a conversation the president has been unwilling to have until now. So that is beginning at this very moment.

The question is, how soon the president will actually leave Washington? But ultimately, Jim, this really comes down to the fact that, you know, while the president is under no obligation to attend Joe Biden's inauguration, what a symbol it would send to the country if he did.

If he did, and he clapped, as President Obama clapped when President Trump is inaugurated. And if he showed that sign to his supporters, his 74 million voters -- as he likes to talk about -- that Joe Biden was legitimately elected president and it is time to move on and heal the country, as the president said in this scripted message that clearly he did not mean --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

DIAMOND: -- just yesterday.

SCIUTTO: -- listen (ph), he's clearly not going to do that, has shown no inclination to do that. And this is yet more proof of that.

David Gergen, you have the prospect of an impeachment vote next week, in the coming days --

GERGEN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- clear -- looks like a clear majority, at least to impeach. The question as to whether you get to a trial in the Senate.

GERGEN: Right.

SCIUTTO: Tell us the significance of that in the coming week, prior to his refusal to attend the inauguration.

GERGEN: Well, I think I might add to, Jim, before going to that, it's also next week we may well have -- or at least there's been reports out in the last 24 hours -- that on the day before, January 19th, the day before --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GERGEN: -- Joe Biden takes the office, that Trump will issue the pardons that we've all been sort of expecting. And they'll be massive, they'll cover the family and possibly will cover him too. So that's going to be a big, big deal before this is over.

But nonetheless, I think that the -- an impeachment without a conviction sends a message to historians, and I think it sends a message to politicians. There are limits, and you're going to destroy your career and you'll destroy your reputation when you go over the lines as this president has.

"The Wall Street Journal" editorial was pertinent to that, that there is a constitutional line and he went over it, and has gone over it repeatedly, in my judgment.

But I do think that, right now, if you had to ask -- I had a friend of mine who's a scholar in the field, well known person who's an historian. And I asked him, where will Trump wind up among presidents on the rankings? And he said, well, he'd been in conversations about this and was having a hard time deciding whether Andrew Johnson or Donald Trump would be regarded as the worst president in American history. So Trump is already in a party of five or less of terrible presidents.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Well, of course, the trouble is, though, in a different information bubble --

[11:00:04]

GERGEN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Would still the --

GERGEN: Yes.