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House Democrats Eye Quick Impeachment By Next Week; Trump Talking Self-Pardon as DOJ May Consider His Riot Role; Trump Could Face Legal Recourse for Riot; Right-Wing FOX Host Refuses to Call Riots an "Insurrection"; Racial Disparities Between Capitol Riot and BLM Protests; Biden Takes Questions as Democrats Mover Closer to 2nd Trump Impeachment. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired January 08, 2021 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But the question that was raised on a call, I'm told, is that it could create a bit of an awkward situation for Joe Biden and who's trying to unite the country, trying to move on from the Trump years.

And Democrats have to essentially make a decision on whether to press ahead, because it would remove one of the key messages they're pushing, which is Donald Trump presents an imminent threat to the country right now, so why move forward with a conviction trial after he leaves office.

But if they convict him after he leaves office, it could prevent him from running for office again.

So all these discussions and questions are taking place behind closed doors, considerations that the leadership is taking.

But Nancy Pelosi is furious at Donald Trump. She wants him to resign from office. She wants Vice President Mike Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment, along with the cabinet.

But there's no indication that that's going to happen, which is why they are talking about something truly unprecedented, to impeach Donald Trump for the second time, the only president that would happen to ever in American history.

But it looks like they're moving in that direction, but recognize some of the pitfalls ahead as they push forward -- Brianna?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Kaitlan, the president is very clearly realizing this is a possibility, that he would be, as Manu said, the first president in Americans history to be impeached twice.

How is the White House responding to this?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think he realizes that he in dangerous of this happening. But it's not so much the president. It's his senior staff who are saying this is very likely a possibility.

Because they don't think they know for sure what the vice president is going to do. And that they aren't guaranteed that the cabinet would not unite against the president and actually move forward.

It seems unlikely that's going to happen based on the conversation we've had with several cabinet secretaries.

But that is what drove the president to make that video last night, where he denounced the pro-Trump mob that attacked Capitol Hill and talked about the transition of power.

It's the senior staff, including Ivanka Trump, the White House counsel, the White House chief of staff.

They went to the president, and said, you're at serious risk of being removed from office or risking losing your power if you don't come out more forcefully against this.

The president did not have a change of heart over how he viewed what happened on Wednesday. But instead, he realizes this threat is growing.

That was last night. Things have changed a lot. It seems like the momentum is growing behind the effort to impeach him for a second time.

There's a realization in the White House this could happen. People are not dismissing it. They're not talking about it the way they talked about at the last impeachment, which also caught them by surprise.

They kind of dismissed it because they counted on Senate Republicans to protect the president. But now they know they have lost a serious amount of support from Senate Republicans.

So they're not sure what's going to happen. But it does seem real inside the White House.

And they realize the next 12 days of the president in office could be some of the most tumultuous in his entire presidency.

KEILAR: And that is saying something.

Kaitlan, thank you so much.

Manu, thank you for your reporting.

There are multiple sources telling CNN that President Trump has been asking aides and lawyers, including his White House counsel, Pat Cipollone about his self-pardon power.

It's unclear whether this topic has come up since Wednesday's attack on Capitol Hill, which was an act that was encouraged by the president. I want to bring in Harry Litman to talk about this. He is a former

U.S. attorney and deputy assistant attorney general, and a legal affairs columnist for "Los Angeles Times", and hosts the "Talking Feds" podcast.

Harry, let's start with the basics. Don't you have to be convicted of a crime in order to receive a pardon?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: No. You can get a pardon as long as the offense has taken place.

You probably can't do a blanket pardon for everything that ever happened and not for future conduct. As long as the offense has what happened, a pardon is appropriate.

KEILAR: OK.

What would a presidential pardon look like? What kind of precedent would this set?

LITMAN: An amazing one. The Department of Justice has already held that you couldn't do it.

Imagine, Brianna, it would be a total ticket to put himself above the law. Fifth Avenue, boom, shoot somebody in broad daylight, sign the pardon. Do whatever his wants, sign the pardon.

So it seems completely antithetical to the constitutional structure. But the Supreme Court has never had occasion to rule on it. This might bring that occasion forward.

KEILAR: You have an op-ed you wrote in the "Los Angeles Times" where you make the case that there's actually legal recourse against the president because of riot. What is the legal recourse?

LITMAN: There's a few charges, but the basic idea is he conspired to have the mob, in the words of the law, either impede federal law or seize federal property.

The question will be whether his speech is directly enough tied to what they did to make out a case.

But, look, he said, we can't do this with weakness. Rudy Giuliani said, trial by combat, et cetera. There's a lot of incendiary words.

[14:35:04]

That would be the question: Could it be tied enough to what the mob did thereafter?

KEILAR: Harry, as always, great to have you. Harry Litman, thank you.

LITMAN: Thank you, Brianna.

KEILAR: Next, the man who is now infamous for being in that photo of him sitting at Nancy Pelosi's desk with his foot on top of her desk, he's been arrested. We have new details on that and other charges for rioters who attacked the capitol.

Plus, the jaw-dropping inability for conservative media to actually call this what it was, which is an insurrection. We will roll the tape.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:40:04]

KEILAR: The attack on the nation's capital was a deadly uprising. It was a violent riot. And it was an insurrection. It was sedition. It was incited by the president, calling his supporters to action.

I'm not used to using these words, "sedition," "insurrection," because it's not something I've had to describe in my lifetime. It doesn't happen in America. I'm sure a lot of us thought that.

But it did happen this week. So let's call it what it is, something that some people are having a harder time with than others, like this guy on planet FOX.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX HOST, "TUCKER CARLSON TONIGHT": What happened yesterday, they're telling us, wasn't simply that a political protest got out of hand after the president recklessly encouraged it. That is, in fact, what happened.

But that's not what they're saying. Instead, they're calling it domestic terrorism. CNN describes it as an insurrection. Today, CNN unveiled a Soviet-style enemies list to make a little easier to find all of those Trump supporters and then destroy them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Next, we'll roll the tape on all the president's enablers who have all helped to fuel the deadly insurrection at the U.S. capitol.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: The insurrection at the U.S. capitol. It wasn't insurrection. It was a political protest that got completely out of control, as we said before, because the president recklessly encouraged it. And that is wrong. But it was not an insurrection.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Don't take his word for it. Don't take mine. It was an insurrection. That's Merriam Webster's word for it.

Insurrection, an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government.

And what is a revolt? A renouncing of allegiance, as to a government or party, especially a determined armed uprising, according to also Merriam Webster. Since this guy pretends not to understand words in a truthful context,

let's use pictures.

These are people who have renounced allegiance to their government, should it not be helmed by Donald Trump, knocking done barriers, knocking done gates, pushing police out of the way.

Police would be the civil authority as described in the definition of "insurrection."

They broke windows and doors. They vandalized offices. The perpetrators forced members of Congress to take cover in fear of their lives.

Those lawmakers are the, quote, "civil authority." And the established government, as the dictionary states, that they are revolting against.

The terrorist looted and they bragged about it afterwards. They climbed the wall of Congress, the established government they were staging an uprising against.

They threatened lawmakers, including a written message for the speaker of the house left on her desk.

At least one man had zip ties, zip ties, as if he was preparing to hold someone against their will.

This was an armed uprising. They were armed with anything they could get their hands on. And that included guns and other weapons, which the D.C. police chief said were recovered from the capitol complex.

The U.S. attorney's office said Molotov cocktails and the ingredients for making homemade napalm were also found. And there were pipe bombs were found on the grounds of the capitol and nearby outside the RNC and DNC.

So it's interesting, when the crowd in this case is full of almost entirely white Trump-supporting rioters, FOX's Tucker Carlson described it as a, quote, " political protest that got out of control."

Especially when this is how he described Black Lives Matter protests and looting this past summer after the death of George Floyd.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: Antifa, crazed ideologues, grifters, criminals, anti-social thugs with no stake in society, nothing better to do than to hurt people and destroy things.

These are no protests. This is not about George Floyd. This is not about systemic racism, whatever that is. America is not a racist country.

They flood the streets with angry young people who break things and they hurt anyone who gets in the way. When they want something, they take it.

What the mobs are doing isn't bringing people together. Just the opposite. Riots don't heal wounds. They create them.

Remember that when they come for you. And at this rate, they will.

They're the armed militia of the Democratic Party. They're working to overthrow our system of government. They're trying to put themselves in power. That's all obvious now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Tucker Carlson rolls he eyes at the idea of systemic racism, at white privilege. But perhaps he should roll the eyes over to a mirror.

It's entirely fantastical to think that crowds of black or brown Americans would have been treated as the mostly white insurrectionists at the capitol were on Wednesday. He doesn't treat them equally.

Yes, looting is criminal behavior punishable under the law. What we saw on Tuesday is so much more than that. Saying otherwise is false equivalence.

[14:45:01]

To liken the siege on the capitol to the violence and property damage during the summer of Black Lives Matter is to ignore this is the United States capitol, the seat of government.

At a moment in time when the vice president is presiding over a joint session of Congress, both of House and Senate present, as they were in the process of making Joe Biden's victory in the presidential election, a fair election, official.

This isn't a Target store. This isn't a statue. This is the capitol, supposedly one of the most secure buildings on earth.

And the difference in law enforcement's actions, Tucker Carlson says, racism has nothing to do with it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: The Berkshire School, a Massachusetts boarding school, which costs $64,000 a year to attend, sent a letter to parents describing what happened yesterday as, quote, "these acts of violence and racism."

Now, if you're a literal person, tied to outdated Western notions of linear thought and fact, that might confuse you.

Racism? Whatever you thought about what happened yesterday, what was racist about it? Well, nothing. Of course, there was nothing racist about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: Since he needs things explained to him in pictures, here is one. An insurrectionist parading a Confederate flag through the capitol.

The inaugural appearance there of this symbol of the American states that tried to secede from this nation under the mantle of slavery, based on the belief that black people were inferior to white people and it was God's will to enslave them.

When Tucker Carlson was arguing against the renaming of military bases named after Confederate generals and again the tearing down of Confederate statues, he said, quote, "a country is the sum total of its history, good and bad."

He said, quote, "Eliminating the past leaves us unable to say who we are."

Well, he's trying to eliminate the present. And he is spoon-feeding it to millions of hungry viewers who tune into his show.

"Healthy societies do not destroy their own history," he said last summer.

But what he didn't cop to is he is part of the illness, a propagandist, a liar, a parasite.

I want to talk this now with Antonio French. He's an opinion columnist for the "St. Louis Post-Dispatch." He's also a member of the editorial board there. And he's a former alderman in St. Louis.

Antonio, I wonder what your reaction is to the argument that there's no racism at play here.

ANTONIO FRENCH, OPINION COLUMNIST AND EDITORIAL BOARD MEMBER, "ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH" & FORMER DEMOCRATIC ST. LOUIS ALDERMAN: Well, it's disappointing, to say the least. It really is as angering as the images I saw on Wednesday when I saw the insurrectionist coming into very little resistance to take over the capitol of the United States of America.

Having been at many protests and many Black Lives Matter events over the years, I saw the police response to peaceful protesters doing little more than standing on the street.

And to see these insurrectionists be treated with such kid gloves was angering.

KEILAR: You talk about a man named Josh, who was just 18 years old, when he protested the death of Michael Brown back in 2014, and other black Americans who had been killed by police in the St. Louis area.

Josh was sentenced to prison for eight years for stealing snacks from a grocery store and burning a trash can.

You said this is a story that stuck with you all these years. Tell us about this. FRENCH: Yes, in the case of Josh Williams, from St. Louis, law

enforcement was very clear that they wanted to send a strong message to discourages acts of protests that turned violent.

Josh definitely did something stupid, but he was a first-time offender.

The idea that he's still sitting in jail serving out an eight-year sentence while folks we saw this week attack the U.S. capitol, endangering the lives of our nation's higher lawmakers, and faced almost no resistance, it's hard to see anything but a double standard in that treatment.

KEILAR: I do think we need to point out there were a number of law enforcement officers who were injured. We know that one died. They were working very hard to stave off the invaders in the capitol.

I think the question really is: How did we even get to the point that they got so close to the capitol? How did leadership make these decisions?

That is something that will take time to get answers to those questions.

But right now, you have law enforcement officials working fast, trying to bring criminal charges against the rioters. And federal investigators are even open to looking at President Trump's role in all of this.

Is that enough?

FRENCH: Well, it's a start. There has to be some consequences for what we saw.

[14:50:00]

And the question I asked in my column for the "Post-Dispatch" is: Are we going to see the same examples being set?

These images of people at Nancy Pelosi's desk, standing at the podium where the vice president just was presiding over the U.S. Senate just moments earlier, you know, this is not the direction we need to go.

And there are a lot of people responsible for fanning the flames of this kind of extremism. Tucker Carlson bears some blame and, of course, the president of the United States.

But one might argue also that the Republican Party has really benefited from this in recent years.

And when you play with fire, sometimes you get burned. We need to really turn down the heat on this extremism that is spreading across the country.

KEILAR: Indeed.

Antonio French, thank you so much for being with us, joining us from St. Louis.

FRENCH: Thank you.

KEILAR: A federal murder investigation will soon be opened in the death of a capitol police officer who was killed during Wednesday's riot.

Federal investigators are casting a wide net to try and father information on people who stormed the capitol, broke into chambers, and stole items from offices and elsewhere.

And let's pause for moment and listen to the president-elect.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, folks, let me take some of your questions. We'll have chances again this week to do it. But (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. President-Elect, while we have been here, as you've been announcing your economic team, we've learned that House Democrats are currently planning to introduce articles of impeachment against President Trump as soon as Monday.

At that point, it will be just a little over a week before the president leaves office. Do you believe this is a good idea?

BIDEN: Look, I've thought for a long, long time that President Trump wasn't fit to hold the job. That's why I ran. And my job now. In 12 days, god willing, I'll be president of the United States of America.

And I'm focused on the urgency of three immediate concerns. One, the virus, getting it under control, getting the vaccine from a vial into people's arms. I think the way it's being done now has been very, very sad.

Number two, we've had 4,000 deaths, 4,000 deaths yesterday. And things continue to rise, to escalate. That's my number one concern, to get the virus under control.

We lost over 125,000 jobs this last month, and people are really, really, really in desperate shape.

And so I'm focused on the virus, the vaccine and economic growth.

What the Congress decides to do is for them to decide.

But I'm going to have to, and they're going to have to be ready to hit the ground running, because when Kamala and I are sworn in, we'll be introducing immediately significant pieces of legislation to deal with the virus, deal with the economy, and deal with economic growth.

So we're going to do our job, and the Congress can decide how to proceed with theirs.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: But if a Democratic member of Congress were to call and ask for your advice whether to proceed with this, what would you tell them? BIDEN: I'd tell them that's a decision for the Congress to make. I'm

focused on my job.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did you speak with Nancy Pelosi before this decision was made, or is that conversation that's still going to happen?

BIDEN: I'll be speaking with Nancy and the Democratic leadership this afternoon, as a matter of fact, about my agenda as well as whatever they want to talk to me about.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Thanks.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Thanks, Mr. President-elect.

BIDEN: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: I wanted to ask about your agenda in light of the jobs report that came out today. You're going to be laying out the principles of your plan.

Do you think the need in the COVID relief bill is greater than you anticipated? And what is the price tag you're looking at? I've been told it could be in the $2 trillion to $3 trillion range.

And as it relates to the direct cash payments, you've talked about the need for $2000 checks.

[14:54:57]

Do you want to see that in a Senate stand-alone bill as a way to speed up the process, or do you think those direct cash payments should be part of the package you're going to be proposing?

BIDEN: We're going to be proposing an entire package. Parts of that package are of equal consequence to people. Unemployment insurance, being able to continue with rent forbearance, a whole range of issues. So that's number one. We think that they all have to be dealt with.

The price tag will be high. But as I said, made scant reference to in my opening comments, the overwhelming consensus among leading economists left, right and center, is that in order to keep the economy from collapsing this year and getting much, much worse, we should be investing significant amounts of money right now to grow the economy.

And that's a pretty wide consensus.

And as you know, Moody's had done an analysis to what I had originally been talking about and said it was necessary to keep the economy from going down.

We create 18.6 million jobs, create $2.3 million more in economic growth, with this out going administration. So it's necessary to spend the money now. The answer is yes. It will be in the trillions of dollars, the entire

package. I'll be here next Thursday laying out in detail how that package is going to go.

But the basic story is simple, that if we don't act now, things will be much worse and harder to get out of the hole later, so we have to invest now.

Secondly, we're going to have to meet the emergency needs of the American people.

Literally, I know you know this, Ken, but people are having trouble just putting food on the table, just keeping the payment of their car, being able to turn the lights on.

There's a dire, dire need to act now, purely out of what is humanitarian need here at home.

And, thirdly, we're going to, in the third stage of this, the whole story is we're going to have to invest, as I suggested throughout the campaign, in infrastructure and health care and a whole range of things that are going to generate good-paying jobs that will allow us to grow the economy.

So that's the long answer to your short question, which is that the idea of, with interest rates as low as they are, with the Fed having had its power sort of taken away in terms of what they could do to help this administration like last, it's important across the board, every major economist say we should be investing in deficit spending in order to generate economic growth.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And I wanted to ask you about what took place at the capitol this week.

You served in the Senate for 36 years. Importantly, you were there in 1983 when there was an explosion in the Senate corridor. You were there in 1998 when two capitol police officers were shot. You were there during the anthrax attacks in 2001.

What kind of investigation needs to take place and what kind of steps need to take place to improve the security of the capitol?

And secondly, how do you think the people who were involved in the storming of the capitol, how should they be treated by your Justice Department? Should they be treated as domestic terrorists?

BIDEN: Yes, they should be treated as -- they're a bunch of thugs, insurrectionists, white supremacists, anti-Semites.

Come on, these shirts they're wearing? These are a bunch of thugs. Thugs. And they're terrorists, domestic terrorists.

And that will be a judgment for the Justice Department to make as to what the charges should be. But the fact is they should be prosecuted. They should be prosecuted. The difference here is this had the active encouragement of a sitting president of the United States. And the way in which the breakdown in security occurred needs to be thoroughly investigated. I'm not going to prejudge what it was.

But the idea, the idea that these people were able to march up the stairs, march in and do it in a way -- there was a great debate -- I don't know the answer -- great debate now.

Was the governor of Maryland correct when he said that I was ready to send in the National Guard, I couldn't get authorization? What happened? It deserves a full-blown investigation.

People need to be held accountable and steps taken that something like this could never happen again.

And the difference this time is, everybody, every nation has dealt, every democracy has dealt with individual terrorist attacks by groups that are very targeted.

[15:00:04]

The largest target was 9/11 in the buildings. Well, right down to blowing up -- you know, a bomb going off in the capitol when I was there.