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Article Of Impeachment Could Be Introduced As Soon As Monday; Source Says, Vice President Pence Has Not Ruled Out 25th Amendment; More Arrests Made After Deadly Insurrection At U.S. Capitol; COVID Surge Puts California In Dire Straits; World Reacts In Shock To Riot At U.S. Capitol. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired January 09, 2021 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[20:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And you are live in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Saturday, I'm Pamela Brown in Washington.

Impeachment number two for President Donald Trump turning into a very real possibility this weekend. Senior members of the House are telling CNN that there is enough support to start the process as soon as Monday. The charge, incitement of insurrection that the president of the United States fired up an angry mob of supporters, who then violently smashed their way into the United States Capitol. You can see some of that in this video right here.

And meantime, the president is now banned permanently from Twitter, band indefinitely from Facebook, and sources are telling me tonight that the president is already working on putting together a legal team to represent him if he is indeed impeached again. Right here, these are lawyers whose names are already in the news. You probably know them pretty well by now.

Meantime, Republicans in Congress definitely not unified in support of the president. At least one GOP senator is openly calling for the president's resignation. Senator Lisa Murkowski's words, I want him out. Another Republican senator says, what the president did this week deserves impeachment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. PAT TOOMEY (R-PA): I do think the president committed impeachable offenses, but I don't know what is going to land on the Senate floor, if anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right. Let's go over to Jeremy Diamond at the White House. Jeremy, it appears the president is now taking this threat seriously, although he has some regrets about how he has responded since the mayhem Wednesday, right?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Pam. With 11 days left in office, President Trump is increasingly likely staring down the barrel of an unprecedented second impeach, the first second impeachment for a president in U.S. history. And the president is preparing for the possibility that those articles of impeachment will not only be introduced but ultimately result in a trial in the Senate.

And so that's why two sources are now telling us that the president is considering Rudy Giuliani and Alan Dershowitz to represent him in that trial. Rudy Giuliani, of course, the former New York City, and the president's personal attorney, who we should note, attended that rally on Wednesday preceded the mob that rioted on Capitol Hill where he talked about trial by combat. And Alan Derhsowitz, of course, is a controversial attorney, First Amendment attorney, in his own right.

Now, all of this is coming at a point where the president is increasingly isolated. He has been removed from Twitter, permanently banned, in fact, and he is also facing a wave of resignations in the top ranks of his administration, with two cabinet secretaries now having resigned.

And amid all of this, the president isn't reflecting on his role in inciting that riot on Capitol Hill on Wednesday but instead the video response that he gave on Thursday night, which came only after a lot of pressure from some of his top advisors, in which the president committed to a peaceful transfer of power and said it's a time for healing and reconciliation. Amid everything, that is the thing that the president is having second thoughts about.

BROWN: And you mentioned he's increasingly isolated. A source told me tonight that he has still not reached out to the vice president. They still have not spoken since the mayhem at the Capitol building on Wednesday. And you're also learning that the vice president will attend Joe Biden's inauguration, at the same time we know the president will not.

DIAMOND: That's right. A source familiar with the plans firming up for us tonight that the vice president will indeed attend this inauguration, CNN had reported a couple of days ago that the vice president was likely to attend the inauguration.

But it seems this is firmed up after Joe Biden, the president-elect, yesterday made clear that he would like to see Vice President Pence attend the inauguration, that he would be honored to see Pence attend. Meanwhile, President Trump will be the first president since the 1800s not to attend his successor's inauguration, becoming only the fourth president in American history not to mark that tradition of the peaceful transfer of power. But Vice President Mike Pence, we're told, he will be there. Pam?

BROWN: All right. Jeremy Diamond live for us from the White House, thanks, Jeremy.

In the meantime, House Democrats say that unless President Trump chooses to resign or the cabinet invokes the 25th Amendment, on Monday, they will, once again, begin the process to remove him from office. It would be the first time a U.S. president faces a second impeachment, as you just heard Jeremy note there in his report. And joining me with more now is CNN Contributor John Dean, former Nixon White House Counsel. John, nice to see you. You are the co- author of Authoritarian Nightmare, Trump and His Followers.

John, earlier on CNN, California Congressman Ted Lieu said that there's no time to waste.

[20:05:03]

Let's listen to what he said.

Okay. So he basically said, look, there is no time to waste to get this moving, to get impeachment moving. Are Democrats right to be worried about what Trump could do in his last 11 days, and do you think that this effort is worth it, given that fact he only has 11 more days left?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, of course, a bill of impeachment, which Ted Lieu was involved in drafting, and I've read, it's very good, it won't stop the president from doing anything. What it will do is be a shot across his bow and brace him, if you will.

I think he's on the defensive right now. It's obvious in hiring Giuliani and Dershowitz, that he's a little concerned, so I think that, as Ted says, they are capable of moving very quickly and plan to do just that, Pamela.

BROWN: But what would it do practically? You said it would be a shot against the bow. But if the House passed, hypothetically passed an article of impeachment against the president and the Senate did not convict him or vote to remove him from office, what would be the implication of this?

DEAN: Well, it's always a very, very negative mark to be impeached by the House. So, historically, it's going to certainly be something he doesn't want on his record. Will it effectively remove him? No. It looks like the clock will run out before Mitch McConnell will even take it up in the Senate. But we also have to remember Mitch McConnell might not be in charge much longer.

Next week, it's possible, since the Georgia races are just about to be certified, that two new senators -- Democratic senators could arrive in Washington and change the balance of power and Mitch would no longer have control of the floor and Schumer would. That could expedite things. He could indeed get things going.

So I think it's important that the House take this action and then the Senate will do what it will do but they're certainly on notice that this is a very troubling situation.

BROWN: And what -- how would it impact him in terms of a 2024 run?

DEAN: Well, if the Senate -- there are 50 members of the Democratic party in the Senate. If 17 more Republicans would join in a conviction of Trump for his impeachable behavior, that could result in him being barred, if he's found guilty, theoretically out of office. They can still proceed and they can bar him from ever holding federal office again. That could affect him very deeply in 2024. He couldn't run.

BROWN: I want to ask you about something else given everything going on now. Sources are telling me that the president has been discussing in recent weeks about whether he can pardon himself. He's spoken to his White House counsel about it. He's spoken to other lawyers about it. This is untested, Presidential self-pardon. Where do you stand on whether this could actually happen?

DEAN: I've read a lot of the scholarship on this issue, and scholars are really not -- there's no unanimity in their thinking. There's one group that says he can't. There's another group that says he can. So it will only be resolved by the court. If Trump does it, he's inviting the Department of Justice, which can barely sit still if he does it, to test it.

And they have plenty of offenses upon which they do indict him and indeed put the whole thing to a test. I think a self-pardon is an invitation for an indictment, frankly. So I don't know if he wants. I think others will obviously tell him that. So I don't think he wants to do that.

BROWN: Right. Because as we know, he wouldn't be protected from state charges with a pardon.

DEAN: Not at all.

BROWN: And I want to just ask you, just take us behind the scenes in the Watergate scandal, what kind of conversations were there about this matter? What did Nixon want to do?

DEAN: Well, Nixon did consider a self-pardon. In fact, an inquiry was made of the Department of Justice through the deputy attorney general who sent it up to the Office of the Legal Counsel for an opinion. There was not a formal opinion issued but an informal memo where the head of the Office of Legal Counsel, Mary Lawton at the time, said she did not believe a self-pardon was possible, because no person could be a judge of their own case, and that's sort of the existing position of the department. And I think the department would indeed come out the same place today.

BROWN: Okay. John Dean, thank you very much, as always.

DEAN: Thank you, Pamela.

BROWN: Meantime, we have just learned that V.P. Mike Pence has not ruled out 25th Amendment considerations. Jeremy Diamond is at the White House.

So, how seriously is the vice president actually taking this, Jeremy?

[20:10:01]

DIAMOND: Well, Pam, this reporting is just in from my colleague, Jim Acosta, who learns from a source close to the vice president that Vice President Mike Pence has not ruled out entirely this effort to invoke the 25th Amendment, believing that it's important to preserve that as an option.

Now, earlier this week, we had learned that the vice president was unlikely to do this, but this source who's close to the vice president told Jim Acosta that the events of the last week make clear that it's important to at least keep this option of the 25th Amendment on the table.

In the meantime, though, the vice president is certainly looking to be a stabilizing influence inside this administration over the next 11 days before a transition to the administration of President Joe Biden.

One thing that we should note, Pam, is also that a couple days ago, I reported that cabinet members, at least two cabinet members were calling around to some of their colleagues in the cabinet to take their temperatures about the idea of invoking the 25th Amendment and more specifically of organizing a cabinet meeting with the president to confront him about his behavior and ultimately have this kind of as a threat hanging over that meeting of invoking the 25th Amendment.

We should note though that a couple of cabinet members who have taken a stance on the president's actions this week, they have chosen not to go the 25th Amendment route but instead to resign. And that's what we saw from Elaine Chao, the secretary of transportation, and Betsy DeVos, the secretary of the Department of Education, both of them not going the 25th Amendment route but instead removing themselves from this administration entirely.

And also a big question here is whether the acting officials at these different departments, because there are so many in this administration, whether or not they would be able to vote on the 25th Amendment, that is a big legal question that is hanging over all of this.

BROWN: It certainly is. Jeremy Diamond, thank you for bringing us the latest there.

Meantime, our breaking news coverage continues after this short break.

Also ahead, the Republican Party is facing a crisis right now just days from losing control of the White House and the Senate. Former Republican Congressman Denver Riggleman joins me up next.

Plus, the anatomy of an attempted coup, former NATO Supreme Allied Commander General Wesley Clark gives me his unique insight a little later in the hour. Stay with me.

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[20:15:00]

BROWN: Well, tonight, as we get this breaking news telling my colleague, Jim Acosta, that Vice President Mike Pence is not ruling out using the 25th Amendment to remove President Trump from office. The GOP is also facing a second possible impeachment of the president.

Several high-profile White House resignations and the pending loss of the Senate, the Republican Party itself is in free fall. GOP Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska is calling on the president to resign, quoting now, I want him out. He has caused enough damage. She's questioning whether to even stay in the party. Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger told CNN last night he is open to a Trump impeachment.

And with me now is former Republican Congressman Denver Riggleman. His term serving the 5th district of Virginia has just ended. Thank you so much for coming on.

FMR. REP. DENVER RIGGLEMAN (R-VA): Thanks for having me.

BROWN: First off, let's just get reaction to what my colleague, Jim Acosta, is being told, that the vice president is not ruling out the use of the 25th Amendment. Now, I am told separately by a source familiar, this is not something that is currently under serious discussion, but, of course, the vice president wouldn't want to take it off the table in his remaining days, according to reporting from Jim Acosta. What do you think about that?

RIGGLEMAN: I think it's something he has to do. After seeing what happened to the vice president, what everybody went through in the halls of Congress, I think you have to keep all options on the table.

And I'm now a member of the Network Contagion Research Institute. I'm the chief strategist there. And I just want to let you know, Pamela, we released a report that shows how this happened, who organized it. What we found that there were seven hate groups that were part of this, white nationalists or white supremacists.

And I have that on Twitter now because we wanted a simplified report. But I think the vice president is seeing some of these same indicators, that we saw a danger out there, that this was an organized mob that sieged the Capitol.

And after what you see, the language that you see, and you still see this progression of inciteful language, even now, as you know, I think the vice president needs to keep down his pocket.

BROWN: Is it time for the president to resign?

RIGGLEMAN: Yes, absolutely. I mean, when you look at what happened when you saw the provocative language that was there, when you see the months of re-tweeting or tacitly or overtly supporting conspiracy theories or those that belong to groups that are spewing dangerous language, you get to a point that you're in charge but you're also the one that's culpable, you're responsible. So we have to do something now.

And what we have to do is we've got to identify the bad actors, we've got to deal with facts. We need to let the people know this. And I'm going to be very specific, this is no false flag operation. From the data that we've seen -- we don't see Antifa involved at all. This is a straight data report. And so at this point, we're looking at most QAnon umbrella with white nationalist, white supremacist groups being part of the crowd that stormed the Capitol right now. BROWN: Okay. So, you're saying basically the president should resign. He is culpable in all of this because of his rhetoric inciting all of this, but what about members of the GOP who also spread this election lie? Do they share some responsibility for the insurrection? Should they resign? What is your view of that?

RIGGLEMAN: I think they should think about it. When you talk about the individuals that spoke about the rally, when you talk about a Mo Brooks, who said, let's kick some ass, or Madison Cawthorn who called people cowards, or Rudy Giuliani who said trial by combat or Don Jr., whatever blather he was spouting, when you have people doing that, they are culpable.

But you also have people that have been pushing these theories still today, right? You're still seeing tweets that this was Antifa or this was something to that effect and that's just dangerous rhetoric. And what it does, it's spinning people up into new hashtags, into new places. And they're going new places on the internet to mobilize and we're seeing that right now.

BROWN: Is that what you're seeing happened though from what the intelligence or information you are privy to that people, regular people are going online and essentially getting radicalized? I mean, when you look at the profiles of some of these people who were involved in the rally, you have a CEO, you have an elected official, you have a war veteran. What is your view of what happened?

RIGGLEMAN: Well, we've seen this has almost become messianic, where it's war, right? You have a vanguard movement that's going to take back the country. And this has been perpetuated for not only months but years.

So what you're seeing, and, again, I don't want to be too overt on this, but people believe this is almost a religious experience and they got caught up in it. And a lot of that had to do with the rhetoric that was coming out.

[20:20:00]

And like we tried to do on this report, we're not saying everybody there was evil. I think they were caught up in it. I mean, that's what happens. However, if you breach the Capitol grounds and you are there in part of these groups, you are a criminal. And seeing who did this, it's pretty -- I would say this is going to bother people when they read this report.

BROWN: So do you think -- I mean, this, in large part, was predictable. I mean, in many ways, as extraordinary as this was, it's also not a shock. Do you feel like before the election, more people should have been speaking out? Even you should be speaking out more and raising the alarm of what was heading our way.

RIGGLEMAN: Yes. Tom Malinowski and I dropped the QAnon resolution months ago. And I've been proudly at the front of this for months. And even the night before, I said this had all the indicators of a Charlottesville. And I don't know if you know this, Charlottesville is in my district. So we saw indicators of a Charlottesville multiplied exponentially. We tried to get that out.

And then thing is some people still thought this was sort of a joke, even with the radicalized language. And I'm proud to say with people like myself, Adam Kinzinger, Paul Mitchell, we've had a lot of people out there saying this was going to happen and, sadly, we were proven right. And we started this.

Tom Malinowski from New Jersey called me, a Democrat from New Jersey, great guy, called me and said, Denver, we got to do something. And we dropped this and started warning people a long ago. On December 10th, I warned people about this in my farewell speech that this could be radicalized and weaponized. And I'm just not sure where some of that open source intelligence was.

BROWN: Have you talked to any of your GOP colleagues who had been on this bandwagon, the election lie? Did they understand how serious this is? This isn't just playing politics.

RIGGLEMAN: Sure, and some of them were my friends. But a lot of them said, listen, we know that most of them absolutely know that this election, there was no systemic fraud, but they are worried about their base. And said that's very dangerous.

If we can't spit facts, if we can't be the people that are elected to tell the truth, it's very difficult sometimes because people don't like you, trust me, I've been censured so many times, I got plaques on my wall. But you have to tell facts. You have to do the right thing. And I'm really disappointed in some of those individuals. And, again, a lot of this is getting re-elected, Pamela, and that's what it's about, and I think that's really a shame.

BROWN: Right. And their base believes it because leaders in government are spewing it. Thank you so much, former Congressman Denver Riggleman. I appreciate it.

RIGGLEMAN: Thank you, ma'am.

BROWN: An attempted coup on American soil. General Wesley Clark, the former NATO supreme allied commander, helps us understand, up next.

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[20:25:00]

BROWN: Well, as more pictures and video begin to emerge from Wednesday's riots at the U.S. Capitol, we were getting a clearer picture of the carnage. The crowd of rioters, who were sold an election fraud fantasy by the president of the United States, began by breaching barriers and breaking into the Capitol building itself, overwhelming an ill-prepared Capitol police officer. One officer was actually being crushed, crushed by the violent mob.

And a warning, the video you're about to see is dramatic and disturbing.

Painful to watch. And we are told that that officer did suffer non- life-threatening injuries. But, of course, it was horrifying and, of course, one officer died from injuries he suffered while defending the Capitol.

As the mob made its way through the halls, rioters, as you see right here, they just sat irreverently in the office of the House speaker, carried off her lectern, paraded confederate flags and they brought zip ties as if preparing to take hostages.

And for a while, the members of Congress continued to certify the election results for President-elect Joe Biden, completely unaware of what was waiting just outside their chambers. The only thing separating some of them from the rioters was this door, where a woman broke through moments later only to be fatally shot by a Capitol police officer.

The president's lies even led these rioters to believe that Mike Pence, the president's own loyal vice president, was a traitor for not overturning the election results. Rioters were heard chanting for the vice president of the United States to be hanged.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PROTESTERS: Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And disturbingly, the vice president and his family were close enough to hear the rioters screaming out his name. They were afraid. And I'm told by a source tonight that the president still hasn't reached out to Mike Pence since all of this unfolded, and all the while in the shadow of the Capitol stood a noose and gallows.

For some more perspective, I want to bring in General Wesley Clark. He is former supreme allied commander of Europe and NATO commander. General Clark, thanks for coming on.

I was actually -- happened to be reporting on Wednesday when this was happening, and we were watching it unfold. And as you're watching it, you're thinking, what are we seeing in real-time, right?

[20:30:00]

What is this? As you were watching it, the siege of the U.S. Capitol, what did it look like to you? A well-organized plot to really overthrow the government or just a mob gone wild?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, it looks like both. And I can't tell just from looking at the -- at the television pictures, you have to understand something that went on behind the scenes. So, if you look at these pictures and ask, okay, what was the intent of bringing these people into Washington on the sixth of January? What was supposed to happen? Why would the President address them? What did he want to happen?

This is a man who previously hadn't conceded to a peaceful transfer of power, maybe he brought them there to establish so much chaos that he had to declare martial law. Maybe he thought he could bring them there as a show of force, and intimidate the people who were confirming the Electoral College vote, and then he would be able to say, look, the Constitutions failed. Let's go take this to the Supreme Court. America has to have a president.

And so obviously, we need to do election. We don't know Pamela, really, what was inside on this. But if you look at the record of the President over the last four years, he's a strategist, he's pretty clever about things, he has a method to his madness. And so, when he wants to do something, he works and moves the levers and organizes things.

If you look at what led up to the impeachment, in 2019, it was a series over many months of orchestrated work with various parties in Ukraine that came to a head when he could then bring the aid up to the president of Ukraine and threaten him that he had to start the investigation of Joe Biden, that wasn't a spur of the moment conversation, that was something that was thought through.

Now, it did not result in a conviction for impeachment for a lot of reasons. But I -- the point here is not how we label this. I think insurrection is a fine label for it. It's what was behind it. So, we're now beginning to arrest these people who were in the Capitol. And we're asking them, why do they do this?

Well, I hope that we'll get to the Facebook pages and the laptops of people who were in positions of authority. Why was the Maryland National Guard held back for over an hour? Why did the President just tell everybody tweet, stop, stop, stop, this is way out of control? Don't do this. He could have done that.

But he and Rudy Giuliani were apparently calling senators or congressmen leaving messages saying, please don't confirm these election results. So --

BROWN: Right. And the vice president was the one who was there in the Capitol Building while it was under siege, calling the Department of Defense, saying, please get the National Guard here as quickly as you can. I mean, we're basically under attack here. That is what our reporting indicates.

But as you see this video, tell our viewers how you saw the U.S. Capitol Police and how they appear to be rather easily overpowered from a command-and-control standpoint. Did the police and the National Guard response have been better? I'm assuming you're going to say, yes.

CLARK: I'm going to say yes. Well, there weren't enough Capitol Hill police and they weren't prepared. So, you know, their first instinct was not to have an armed confrontation. So, some actually appeared to cooperate with these peoples that are going to be overwhelmed. Look, it'll be peaceful, and many of these people that were up there, probably had no idea that there was anything behind this, they just sort of swept up in the emotions of the moment. That's what normally happens. But if you look at other incidents like this around the world, over a period of time, there's a familiar pattern to them. There's -- there are organized demonstrations, there's chaos, but there's usually something inside it, some plot within that that will lead to some desired outcome. It's usually not just random violence.

And I hope as we go through this, that we will investigate this thoroughly enough to see what was behind it. Who decided not to prepare the Capitol Hill Police, who decided to keep the guard out and why and why -- what was actually going on inside the White House at the time?

BROWN: And just very quickly, if you would, General, what needs to be done to make sure this doesn't happen again?

CLARK: I think President Trump needs to leave office immediately. I think he should be impeached, if he isn't. But I think it's not enough. We need to really investigate and find out what's behind this. And what -- Pamela, there are millions of people in this country who believe this was a fraudulent election.

So, one of the first tasks that I believe President-elect Biden has got to undertake is to bring this country together by emphasizing truth and reporting and going back and looking at some of the aspects of the last six months which have led people to these false conclusions. We've got to bring our democracy back together.

[20:35:08]

BROWN: All right. General Wesley Clark, thank you for coming on and sharing your time and your perspective with us. We really appreciate it.

And right now, as we speak, California hospitals are struggling, barely able to keep up with the coronavirus and there is no end in sight.

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[20:40:09]

BROWN: The U.S. coronavirus death toll has now surpassed 370,000 lives lost. Look at your screen right here to be precise, that's 372,051 people who have lost their lives, so far, during this pandemic. And the state of California is getting hit especially hard right now. The surging numbers are overwhelming hospitals. Just today, the number of COVID patients in ICU reached an all-time high.

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DR. ANISH MAHAJAN, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, HARBOR UCLA MEDICAL CENTER: We don't have any more ICU capacity. All of the hospitals in the region are putting ICU patients in unusual places in the hospital, just to find room for them. It takes two to three weeks for patients to get sick enough to need the hospital after they've gotten the virus. And Christmas was only two weeks ago. And we're already full. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, CNN Sara Sidner has more on how hospitals are struggling more and more with each passing day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've never seen the ER like this before in our whole time being here.

SARA SIDNER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is what COVID-19 looks like in California in 2021, a hellscape.

LINDSAY PACKARD, ICU MANAGER AND NURSE, ST. MARY MEDICAL CENTER: The death toll has been just out of this world.

SIDNER: On the edge of the Mojave Desert at St. Mary Medical Center in Apple Valley, you can see the crisis even before you walk in. Patients arrived constantly, some by ambulance, some on foot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What's going on today?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just feel weak.

SIDNER: A California National Guard strike team of medics and nurses arrives daily.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is an area of great need, and we're glad to be here. You know, when I first got in it, it felt like maybe a Band- Aid on an arterial bleed.

SIDNER: A gush of patients that just won't stop.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'd say about 80 percent of our patients are COVID.

SIDNER: Temporary plastic walls erected all over this hospital, create a maze of COVID pods patients with other emergencies line the halls.

SIDNER (on camera): The hospital is so full here that some of the patients that you're seeing here in the hallways will have to wait seven to 10 days possibly just to get a room. They need to be admitted to the hospital. But they're being cared for in the hallways for now.

SIDNER (voice over): Upstairs in the 20-bed ICU --

PACKARD: In ICU, we see death and dying on a daily basis, but never to this scale.

SIDNER: Every Intensive Care Unit, bed is full. Every staff member, busy saving patients.

PACKARD: We have over 50 ICU patients in the hospital right now. And we only have the staff to care for about 20 of them. So, we are being stretched, the nurses are being pushed to their absolute breaking points and then a little further every day. SIDNER: The soundtrack here, a never-ending series of beeping, codes, and rapid response calls alerting staff when someone's heart has stopped, or breathing has stalled. That's what's happening behind this curtain inside a newly created COVID unit. A COVID-19 patient in pain can't catch your breath. Nurses and doctors can't either working every day to exhaustion.

DR. ARTUR GRIGORIYAN, EMERGENCY MEDICINE, ST, MARY MEDICAL CENTER: The physical toll, of course, there's also an emotional toll and it's very hard to see these patients dying. You know, mortality is very -- has been very, very high.

SIDNER (on camera): How do you deal with this? I mean, are you OK?

GRIGORIYAN: I guess, I'm still standing but, you know, we'll see. Give it a few months.

SIDNER (voice over): But right now, a patient needs him. He's on life support. COVID pneumonia is on the attack. His lung has collapsed. There's a scramble to insert a chest tube, the difference between life and death, razor thin.

PACKARD: People don't take it seriously until they're here with us or until they're on the other line of that phone call talking to their family member for the last time. It is real it is serious and most of what we're seeing is preventable.

SIDNER: The hospital is making space in every nook and cranny, but the crush of patients threatens to overwhelm the space and the staff every single day. Everyone here expects this to get worse. Before coronavirus takes its last breath.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: You know, what really arrested, you know, our senses was the sound of the E.R., the sound of those COVID pods, the sound of the woman trying to catch your breath over and over. You can hear, she just can't, and it hurts. It's extremely painful. We've heard that from patient after patient after patient.

Ultimately though, Pamela, this is about the numbers and the numbers here are just astronomical when it comes to the number of people who are getting coronavirus every day. At this point, we're at about 40,000 people a day testing positive for coronavirus in California. Pam.

[20:45:05]

BROWN: And, Sara, thank you for bringing us the human impact behind the numbers gasping for air, hearing that is so awful. Thank you, Sara.

A strong warning from a former key member of the President's Homeland Security Team. Elizabeth Neumann says if the president remains in charge, it will just encourage white nationalists. We'll speak to her live up next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:50:09]

BROWN: We are following the breaking news tonight A source close to the vice president tells my colleague, Jim Acosta, that Mike Pence is not ruling out using the 25th Amendment to remove President Donald Trump from office, though, our understanding is it's not under serious discussion right now, but it's not being rolled out and there are only 11 days left in President Trump's term. But officials are bracing for more violence from white nationalist and foreign radicals in that short timeframe.

Two domestic terror experts warned about the fallout from Wednesday's deadly events, writing in the Washington Post, "Insurrection is the right word, because we should understand this as one battle and a larger war. That's how the militants will view it. In extremist spaces online, activists view this as a victory. It was successful as a show of force, and they will be emboldened to do more."

I'm joined now by the co-author of that piece, former Assistant Secretary of Homeland Security under President Trump, Elizabeth Neumann. Elizabeth, thanks for coming on.

You argue that leaving Trump in office through January 20th will only give this extremist movement more steam. Why is that?

ELIZABETH NEUMANN, FORMER DHS SECRETARY OF COUNTERTERRORIST AND THREAT PREVENTION: That's right, Pamela. Look, there is no doubt that what happened on Wednesday, emboldened not only the people that were there at the Capitol, but all across the country. It we wrote this piece, in part, because we think the history of the white power movement is really important for people to understand what happened on Wednesday. And it's really -- it's really also important, especially for those that might be Trump supporters, to hear me that I'm not suggesting that everybody that was in that crowd is a part of the white-collar movement.

There were -- as I look at this, that there are at least three primary threat vectors that converged on Wednesday. You had massive disinformation that's occurred over the last six years by the president, by conservative media, and that has led followers to get to this point where they believe that they are facing an existential threat, that the election has been stolen from them. And when you face an existential threat, sometimes, certain individuals believe that violence is justified.

You also have foreign actors that are launching disinformation campaigns. They've been doing this for years. They have been particularly good at amplifying some of the disinformation that the President has been spewing for the last few years.

But this third vector, we feel like is underappreciated and not taken seriously enough, and that is the threat from various domestic extremist groups that are very active in our country. They've been active for decades, but they have in particular in the last few years become broader in scope. More a number, and they were absolutely --

BROWN: I just asked her, Elizabeth. OK. We -- actually, we have to go, but I think that this is really, really interesting. And you were careful not to paint everyone with a broad brush. But clearly, from what you saw what you've gathered, from your experience, there were concerning aspects there of domestic extremists involved.

Elizabeth Neumann, thank you so much for coming on. We appreciate it.

NEUMANN: Thanks for having me.

BROWN: Well, there is strong reaction across the globe to the attempted coup at the U.S. Capitol. Christiane Amanpour joins us next.

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BROWN: The deadly insurrection at the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday sent shockwaves across the country and the world. While most Americans watched with disgust as the events played out, authoritarians worldwide jumped on the opportunity to criticize America. Here to discuss the global fallout, CNN chief international anchor Christiane Amanpour. Christiane, thanks for joining us.

The world was watching and reacting to this in real time. Was there a broad spectrum of reactions or did there seem to be some international consensus of what went on here?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, it pretty much fell into two camps, Pamela, as you can imagine, obviously, it was played and relayed live all around the world. And the extraordinary thing was that America's allies, Europeans and allies in Asia and elsewhere, reacted immediately.

There was no waiting a decent diplomatic interval to send some kind of, you know, telegram, it was tweets and on camera statements and messages that came out from France, from Germany, from the E.U. from wherever you might name it, absolutely shocked, even the Pope has said that what happened must be condemned.

Germany, which knows a thing or two about the break in constitutional norms said that this is, you know, an unpalatable threshold has been crossed when these constitutional norms are shattered. And then when the storming of the seat of democracy happens.

So, it has profoundly sharp America's allies, which count on the United States to continue its role of upholding democratic norms. We've seen the erosion of that during the Trump years. But nonetheless, this was a step too far, then you can imagine the authoritarians, America's adversaries, a huge amount of Schadenfreude was taking place, you know, many looking at them, whether it was Russia or China, or Iran, or Venezuela, wherever you might look pointing at a country that has sought to give lessons on democracy and upholding these values, and they were gleeful.

BROWN: Gleeful is the right word. So, what has been the reaction from Putin and Russia?

AMANPOUR: Well, on the day it happened and, you know, several days afterwards, Russian television, including state television, and those very close to Putin, you know, obviously played this 24/7 on their own networks. And we're very, very much in the camp of the United States has no right to treat us in any way other than sovereign, because if this can happen to the United States, we are not in the position to take any more lessons nuance.

But more than just words, Pamela, and this is very important, you know, that the U.S. intelligence believes that it is Russia that for the last many, many months, has been involved in this massive hack of not only government structures, but also private enterprise in the United States.

And what we understand is that the U.S. was not ready and not able to defend against that, obviously, the U.S. cyber warnings and cyber security did not catch this. And we understand that the U.S. was more, you know, focused on trying to protect the election that actually protect national security. This is very, very important to point out.

Fiona Hill, as you remember, a former Trump national security official, she obviously testified during the 2019 impeachment proceedings. She called this a gift to Putin and others China who might be who wants to harm the United States. And she also put what happened on Wednesday at the Capitol. She framed it as a coup, a coup by the President and his instigators that failed.

But, nonetheless, I think important that you can take away from this is that a President Trump was defeated in the election, so this anti- democratic trend has been defeated in the election.