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Source: Pence Not Ruling Out 25th Amendment, Wants To Preserve It In Case President Trump Becomes More Unstable; Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX) Is Interviewed About Impeaching Trump Again; House Democrats Plan To Introduce Impeachment Resolution Monday; Over Two Million New COVID-19 Cases And 24,000 Deaths Nine Days Into 2021. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired January 09, 2021 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: I think the importance you can take away from this is that, A, president Trump was defeated in the election.

[21:00:05]

So this anti-Democratic trend has been defeated in the elections. And, B, the institutions held. I mean they were threatened to the point of breaking but to -- up until now they've at least held on and that I think the allies around the world are taking some confident.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Christiane Amanpour, we appreciate you staying up late with us, 2:00 a.m. there in London, where you are live from, but important perspective that's going around the world. Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Thanks, Pamela.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROWN: And you are live at the CNN NEWSROOM.

I'm Pamela Brown here in Washington, D.C.

And there is breaking news right now as sources close to the vice president, Mike Pence, telling my colleague, Jim Acosta that that he has, quote, not ruled out using the 25th Amendment to remove President Trump from office. But I am also learning through different sources this decision is not currently under serious consideration but it is clearly not taken off the table according to sources speaking to my colleague.

I want to go straight to the White House right now for more on this breaking news. CNN's Jeremy Diamond is there.

What's the latest, Jeremy?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pam, as you said, this source close to the vice president telling our colleague that Vice President Mike Pence isn't taking this option of the 25th Amendment which with a majority of the cabinet members and the vice president could strip President Trump of his presidential powers, the vice president not taking that option off the table.

This source is cautioning though, that it's out of concern that the president could become more unstable and that it could be required. But at this point, it's very clear it seems that Vice President Pence isn't planning to imminently invoke this 25th Amendment. Instead it seems to be about preserving this as an option should the president's behavior worsen.

Now, what's notable as well the fact we know already that cabinet members have been discussing amongst themselves the possibility of invoking the 25th Amendment, two cabinet members in particular were calling around on Thursday morning to their fellow cabinet secretaries to talk to them about a meeting with the president to confront him about his behavior and also to potentially have the threat of the 25th Amendment hanging over that meeting.

And so what's important to note here is that, you know, you have calls for impeachment, calls for the president's resignation and clearly these discussions about the 25th Amendment have not gone away entirely even if this isn't something that we should expect imminently from the vice president or members of the cabinet.

BROWN: And speaking of, what I'm told is that the president has not reached out to Mike Pence since Wednesday, since the mayhem there where he was in the Capitol Building under siege. There has since been threats made against the vice president, has the White House had anything to say about that?

DIAMOND: Well, we do have a statement from Judd Deere, who is deputy press secretary at the White House, and he says we strongly condemn all calls to violence including those against any member of this administration. That was in response to my request for comment about these calls for the vice president to be executed, not only by that mob on Capitol Hill but also by the prominent pro-Trump attorney Lin Wood who is active on social media and made a threat, saying that the vice president should be executed by firing squad.

Obviously, the White House here, it's notable they're not naming Mike Pence directly but saying they condemn all threats of violence against any member of the administration.

BROWN: And, again, the president has not reached out to Mike Pence in the wake of all this.

I asked one source close to Pence what they thought and they said, call the Secret Service for more on this.

All right. Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much. I want to bring in our senior political analyst Mark Preston for more on this.

Put it in perspective, Mark, about what Jim Acosta was told that Mike Pence essentially has not ruled out invoking the 25th Amendment. We also have this reporting from our Jake Tapper this evening that the vice president and his family, while they were in that secure location in the Capitol building the president did not reach out to check on his safety or condemned those who said Pence should be executed. We have -- we know that there have been presidents and vice presidents

who didn't always get along in the past. But what does all of this tell you about the division between these two men with 11 days left?

MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it's -- the gulf is so big between them right now, it will never be able to come back together. I don't think we should be too surprised that Mike Pence is sending this message out to the president. We know right now that the president is glued to the television. He is trying to find out everything that's being said about him and we understand he's extremely upset about it. Mike Pence, though, does have that ace card in his back pocket and that is the ability to move forward with this.

Mike Pence for all the criticism that he has received and most of it is certainly fitting for what he has done and to help enable Donald Trump is still not Donald Trump.

[21:05:02]

And I think we have to be, you know, very careful with that is that I do think that if push comes to shove Mike Pence will do the right thing. We've seen him take steps going towards that, the idea he will attend the inauguration, the idea that he is willing to reach out to the Biden administration and to try to tell them that we're able to move forward.

But, again, this is a very, very, very sharp message being sent to Donald Trump who is having all of his allies right now abandon him as we speak. If you go too far then I'm going to throw you out.

BROWN: So, what is the significance of this gulf between them and what do you think about the fact as you point out Joe Biden that the vice president will be attending Joe Biden's inauguration while Trump will boycott it?

PRESTON: Well, you know what I have the most fear is that there's a belief amongst folks that Donald Trump will not want to be impeached twice so that he will not want to go down in history as being the only president to be impeached twice. So what he'll do is that he'll resign before that happens.

We are so well past that right now that I don't think that Donald Trump cares what's going to happen. The problem with not having Mike Pence now in contact with Donald Trump is that he is so alienated right now from those who could at least try to keep the train on the tracks, at least try to keep it on the track, now who is he surrounded by? He's surrounded by a smattering of loyal family members and Rudy Giuliani who has clearly shown that he is not capable of having a very clear thought in these days.

BROWN: OK, Mark Preston, thank you.

PRESTON: Thanks.

BROWN: Meantime, Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee of Texas is among the 208 at least Democrats ready to move forward on impeachment. I know the number is changing roughly. She joins us now.

Congresswoman, thanks for your time.

First of all, I want to get to the breaking news that vice president has not taken the 25th Amendment off the table which could essentially remove President Trump from office. What is your reaction to that?

REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D-TX): That's good news. I'm sorry that he's still contemplating, what is obvious is that the president is ill- suited and ill-fit to lead the American people. It's not about any one of us who happens to be elected. It's not about the vice president.

Although, the president of the United States put the leadership of the House and Senate, the third in line to the presidency, the vice president and elected officials in danger of losing their lives, it's not about us, it's about the danger that he placed the American people in. It's the destruction that he caused to the people's house, the seat of democracy and his willingness to participate in the mob behavior that he initiated or encouraged with falsehoods, with lies and, of course, the causing of five people on that day, that fateful day, the day that will live in infamy to die.

I think that would be enough for the vice president to realize how ill-suited and unfit the president is, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt, Mr. Pence, to deliberate as much as he might need. But I'm concerned that he is saying he wants to watch and see if the president becomes more unstable. He's unstable now and dangerous to the American people.

BROWN: Where do things stand with the impeachment efforts with the Democrats?

LEE: Well, I think we are gathering more and more the members of --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: What's the latest number you have?

LEE: I think we're upwards of 190. Many of us submitted resolutions and there are many people who are on several of them because they have very fine points but we will rally around one impeachment resolution and I think the process is where we would like to see the president resign to initiate this himself, to realize that he is unfit. If he does not do that, we would like for the vice president to convene the cabinet and to thoughtfully deliberate on the 25th Amendment.

We think there is sufficient information and actions by the president again. Anyone that can be viewing television having music in the background with other compatriots, if you will, watching the mayhem that was taking place at the seat of government, the Capitol of the United States, the seat of democracy, the House of Representatives and the United States Senate, an equal co-branch of government, to me seems to be unstable.

But if that is not enough, I hope that the vice president can think of many other things that have occurred trying to disrupt an election, trying to intimidate state elected officials to find thousands of votes but we are united --

(CROSSTALK)

LEE: -- in the fact that he has to be held accountable. And that's what the impeachment resolution is about.

BROWN: And as you pointed out you're still trying to get more Democrats on board.

[21:10:01]

What do you say to those who are hesitant that another impeachment proceeding could only potentially further embolden Trump supporters and, you know, that Trump could use it as a badge of honor, that it could do more harm than good, what do you say to them?

LEE: The harm that the president has done is so devastating that giving him a number of days without the threat of impeachment, without holding him accountable for the loss of life, the bloodshed that occurred on January 6th, the day in infamy again, a day that was catastrophic in its possible impact, I would say to them that to the American people, to the people who this democratic institution belongs, who this Capitol belongs to, the people of the United States, the many people who remained at home and watched in horror what was happening to the place where they held in such esteem and honor that he had to be held accountable.

I think it's important to understand impeachment. Impeachment will never be removed from a president even if they're not convicted. Impeachment is an indictment.

There has never been a president in the United States that has been impeached twice. He is well deserving of that because if anything moves you to say let's proceed with the impeachment resolution, it should be his enormous abuse of power, his failure to uphold the Constitution, his perpetrating an insurrection and the fact that people died because of his actions.

I will never forget that. That pain will never leave me. I offer to those families a great deal of sympathy even if they had misinformation.

The officer, of course, was in the line of duty and so saddened by his loss. He was defending and fighting to protect the people that were inside and as well the institution.

To those who are hesitant, I would say when you think about all of those elements how can you not hold this president that really has blood on his hands to an accounting? And the impeachment process is that accounting.

BROWN: And you mention there's different components to it, right, the House impeaches which would be an indictment, the Senate would convict or not convict and would be in charge of removal. We have the first sign a Senate Republican may be open to impeachment efforts.

This is what Pat Toomey this afternoon had to say. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. PAT TOOMEY (R-PA): I don't know what they are going to send over and I would -- one of the things I'm concerned about frankly is whether the House would completely politicize something. I do think the president committed impeachable offenses but I don't know what is going to land on the Senate floor, if anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So as you heard he stopped short of saying how he would vote if it reached the Senate floor. But what do you think, Congresswoman, when you hear a Republican senator like him say this president committed impeachable offenses.

Does that sound like a crack in the dam to you?

LEE: It sounds like a thoughtful member of the United States Senate who has placed patriotism over personality politics and he is right, the impeachment resolution should be as nonpolitical and nonpartisan as it can be. It should be a constitutional document and I can assure you that is what is being crafted, that is what is being supported by the members of the United States Congress.

We have nothing to gain by adding any hyperbole or any kind of added information. We can just go on the facts, insurrection, the provoking of the mob attack of domestic terrorism against the United States Congress, House and Senate, the place of democracy. We can show the abuse of power and the willful lacking of defending the laws and Constitution of the United States of America. We can conspicuously show the interference in an election by calling state elected officials and asking them to perpetrate a criminal act by finding thousands of votes.

So I think Senator Toomey is correct, we all need to be united that all the purpose that we have is to hold the president accountable on behalf of the American people, on behalf of those who did not find themselves in a mob-like action. There were people in that crowd who came to support the president. They have every right to do that, who were concerned about the election. They have every right to do that.

But there were those who were provoked and who came motivated to kill, to maim. There were individuals who had pipe bombs in their trucks and they had ties to tie up people, some had guns.

We cannot allow that to stand and you know what, we have to say to the world as a member of the homeland security committee that we disdain and condemn white militarism, white racism and, of course, the violence that was perpetrated by these anti-government persons. They may have been supporting Trump, but they were not supporting their nation. They were not patriots.

And in that we saw a possibility of opening this wonderful institution to the vulnerability of the world. That hurt me the most that we have shown others of what they might do. So I don't think we can do anything else but to say to this president

this behavior is unacceptable and then begin to heal this nation. I am wholeheartedly behind unifying us. I think a President-elect Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris are the right people to begin to heal this nation and to join us together as members of Congress and as the people of this country to stand as one because a nation divided cannot stand. We will stand united. I believe that with all of my heart.

BROWN: All right. Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, we'll leave it on that note. Thank you so much.

LEE: Thank you for having me.

BROWN: Well, police and federal authorities nationwide are in the process of identifying and arresting the people who smashed their way into the U.S. Capitol this week. So far, at least 83 people have been arrested and charged and also this evening, we're learning that the New York City Fire Department is following a number of tips that some of their firefighters were involved in the riot.

CNN's Shimon Prokupecz is tracking that for us tonight.

So, what's the latest, Shimon?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Pam, the FDNY saying they are now cooperating with the FBI after the FBI went to them and said they received information that either retired members or current members of the FDNY were present at the Capitol. The FDNY saying that they released information after getting a request from the FBI.

Now, all of this comes as we learn that other people have been arrested. One of those people seen wearing horns, this ridiculous costume at the Capitol, the FBI arresting him. His name is Jacob Anthony Chansley, significant with him is that he told the FBI when they questioned him according to the FBI that he was present at the Capitol, that he was present in Washington, D.C. at the request of President Donald Trump because the president had asked that all patriots come.

Also arrested, a man by the name of Adam Johnson, he was seen in a photo with Pelosi's lectern. He was arrested by the FBI. Of course, this investigation is stretching all across the country, all 56 field offices of the FBI across the country involved in this investigation.

Obviously, they are looking for many more. They know who many of the people are. The question now is, how do they get them?

They're working with some of their lawyers and they're also working to try and bring most of them into custody -- Pam.

BROWN: All right. They are very busy right now. Shimon Prokupecz, thank you.

And still to come on this Saturday evening, sources tell me that President Trump is considering Rudy Giuliani and Alan Dershowitz for his defense team in a possible second impeachment trial. When we come back, I'll speak to Ben Ginsberg, the former election lawyer for Republicans.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:22:14]

BROWN: Well, following breaking news tonight, sources tell my colleague Jim Acosta that the use of the 25th Amendment by Vice President Mike Pence against President Trump remains on the table. The source saying that Pence wants to preserve the option just in case the president becomes more unstable. There are concerns that invoking the 25th Amendment or beginning the impeachment process could push President Trump to take some sort of rash action putting the nation at risk.

Joining me now is CNN Contributor and Republican election lawyer, Ben Ginsberg.

Good to see you, Ben. What is your reaction to this reporting? How should we all feel right now? Should we be worried about possible reactions from the president? It's certainly an unsettling time.

BEN GINSBERG, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, certainly your reporting suggests that we should be concerned about that, and, frankly, Mike Pence saying that he is still considering invoking the 25th Amendment confirms that reporting that the president is not stable, that is capable of doing things that has Mike Pence and members of Trump's own cabinet worried about him.

BROWN: And I do want to be clear just to put it into context that I did speak to another source who said, look, it's not under serious discussion, it's not like he's actively discussing it but he essentially doesn't want to rule it out with 11 days left in office.

And I also want to get your reaction to the comments from Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee. I just spoke with her, do you think the Democrats will be able to make impeachment charges stick this time and convince enough Senate Republicans to convict?

GINSBERG: It depends what they send over to the senate. I think that's absolutely a correct assessment that Pat Toomey gave earlier. I think what you need to remember about all of this is that there's not much time left and the 25th Amendment and the threat of impeachment are both very constructive guardrails on what feels to be a bit of a dangerous situation involving the president.

So Republicans like Senator Toomey saying he would consider impeachment if the charges are right, more than anything else, is a warning to the president to keep his actions within bounds.

BROWN: And this was a mob attack on a coequal branch of government. The Democrats as we pointed out are considering a charge of incitement to insurrection. In your view, is the president guilty of that? GINSBERG: Well, certainly, his language that he used to the ralliers

is suggestive of that and I suppose if there is actually a trial, one of the things that the impeachment managers would want to get at is what other conversations the president may have had with rally organizers and urged them to take certain actions.

[21:25:12]

So all of that plays into what an impeachment might look like and why there could be more serious ramifications.

BROWN: I want to get your thoughts on this before we let you go. You are a Republican, a longtime Republican attorney. We're told tonight that the president has been figuring out what potential legal team he would have if there was a second impeachment and told from sources that Pat Cipollone, the White House counsel, Jay Sekulow and Jane Raskin who were involved in the first impeachment, they wouldn't be involved this time around.

And that's not because the president isn't reaching out to them and wanting them to. They have been, you know, as we've been reporting, they have been at loggerheads with the election issues. They've been very up front with him about what's going on. But he is on the other hand looking towards Alan Dershowitz and Rudy Giuliani to potentially represent him.

What do you make of all this?

GINSBERG: That is a huge lack of judgment. I mean, normally you would hope in your leaders that you take a look at track records and how things work out and this is a comment more about the Giuliani-inspired cases. But, look, they brought some 60 cases about election fraud both before and after the election.

Rudy Giuliani has not won a thing. He's really been quite embarrassing and ill-serving the president with his wild conspiracy theories that has the president in the position of being talked about having the 25th Amendment used against him and being impeached for a second time in the House.

And that's pure Rudy Giuliani advice. Why the president for a nanosecond thinks he's in a good position and should double down on that theory in representation, I don't know.

BROWN: An interesting point. I was told from sources close to the president, he initially in December knew he loss, he accepted it, but he just wanted to make it hard on Biden. And then he started listening to Rudy Giuliani and then started to really believe in this fantasy that the election was stolen from him which we know is completely false.

All right, Ben Ginsberg. Thank you.

GINSBERG: Thanks, Pamela.

And reliving the insurrection. When we come back, I'll speak to the photographer who captured one of America's darkest hours.

And be sure to join CNN's Wolf Blitzer for "The Trump Insurrection: 24 Hours that Shook America", a look at what happened at U.S. Capitol and what happens next. This new CNN special report airs tomorrow night at 10:00 p.m.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:31:26]

BROWN: Well, as we get further out from Wednesday's deadly insurrection. We are getting more footage showing how horrific and dangerous the rioting was. One of the most disturbing pieces shows an officer screaming in pain as he is being crushed by a pro-Trump mob. I have to warn you this video is graphic, but the officer did survive.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

BROWN: I want to repeat that that officer in the video did survive and the photographer who captured that footage is Jon Farina. He's joining us by phone.

Jon, thanks for talking with us.

That mass of people descended into the tunnel and you ended up right in the middle of everything. Bring us inside the mayhem. What was it like?

JON FARINA, FREELANCE PHOTOGRAPHER (via telephone): Well, at that point there had already been clashes going on for I would say over two hours leading up to that point so that was on the second level, not the ground level. Police had to actually retreat up to that level and were just kind of swarmed with, you know, the people that were taking over the Capitol grounds.

And so, they retreated into that tunnel but I had stayed down on ground level for a few minutes and then I started to make my way up and looking inside that tunnel, you know, I saw how bad it was, you know, I hung back for a few minutes just seeing what the situation was like. And after a few minutes I just decided, all right, let me get in there.

I looked for a position where I could kind of brace myself in case anything did happen, so I saw in the corner there was the door frames, they looked pretty solid so I said let me try to get to that corner and I'll just stay at that front line and let's see how this turns out and, yeah, that -- it was just a horrible, frightening situation. I was in that tunnel for about 30 minutes. I didn't think it was going to end, at all.

BROWN: And I'm just wondering what else you saw in terms of the confrontation between the rioters and the police, and what did you see in terms of the rioters, the protesters who were trying to help the police? You saw in that video it looked as though one of the rioters was trying to help him.

FARINA: Yeah, that was only after they beat him, you know, it's like --

BROWN: Yeah.

FARINA: They were saying, hey, you know, we're not here for you, just go home. You know, or, you know, basically saying that they're after the politicians and, you know, whatever they wanted to do, you know, just things of that nature and, you know, it was just very -- there were many things said and it was just a really bad situation.

BROWN: And I'm sure you're still processing it.

FARINA: Yeah, yeah.

BROWN: And trying to like figure out what you just experienced.

[16:35:00]

I'm sure it was surreal and you feared for your own life. I mean beak in the middle of that mob, it would be understandable if you did.

FARINA: Yeah.

BROWN: But we are glad that you were able to document some of the behind the scenes of what we're seeing right here showing on everyone's screen. It's really important we get this inside view, so thank you so much, Jon Farina, and thanks for coming on to talk to us.

FARINA: Yeah, thank you, Pam.

BROWN: And besides the political consequences from the riot, the CDC is warning of public health consequences too. More on that just ahead.

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[21:39:15]

BROWN: Well, ten months into a global pandemic and the infection, hospitalization and death rates are worse than ever. Earlier today the U.S. topped 370,000 confirmed cases. You see it right there on your screen and listen to this, just since the start of the New Year more than 2 million Americans have tested positive. That's more than 24,000 Americans have died.

Joining me now with more doctor and epidemiologist, Abdul El-Sayed. He's also a former Detroit health commissioner.

Dr. El-Sayed, these numbers are horrifying. Just horrifying. They continue to spike and they show no sign of decreasing.

We know that California is already struggling to find ICU beds. I don't want to be a doomsayer but can we start to see health care systems collapse across the country?

[21:40:03]

Where are we headed? DR. ABDUL EL-SAYED, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: This is a really dire situation for health care systems across the country and we're already seeing in some of the hardest hit communities like in Los Angeles that they're starting to move to triage in ways that basically force clinicians and EMT professionals to make decisions about whether or not they think a patient can get the kind of treatment that would save a life.

And when you're in that situation you're risking not providing health care to people who potentially do well because they got it. That's the scenario that could potential spread across the country. This is a moment where we're all holding our breaths to see what the consequences of holiday travel might be.

And unlike in the spring, in the early surge of this pandemic, this virus is everywhere now. It's not just in a few major cities, it is everywhere. And so, particularly in rural communities where hospital infrastructure has been so hard hit by health care system that has not sustained health care quality and delivery in low income rural communities and low income urban communities, you might start seeing that kind of triaging and collapse in those communities just soon. We're hoping for the best, though.

BROWN: You know, it's interesting, Sara Sidner my colleague earlier reported on it. The nurse that she interviewed said a lot of people we're seeing don't understand how serious it is until they're gasping for breath in the hospital or their loved one on the other end of the telephone. Are you seeing that among people now so many months into the pandemic? There's just a sense of fatigue even as we talk about how urgent this is.

EL-SAYED: Yeah, well this, is the tragedy of mis- and disinformation, is that people believe this line that they hear on the Internet across various social media platforms it's not real. It's a hoax. This really won't catch you.

And they assume that because they've been safe up until now or somebody in their family or one of their loved ones or friends hasn't gotten "it" couldn't get them until it is too late. That is why it's so critical people do the things they need to protect themselves.

Look, help is on the way. We have a vaccine. We've got to get it out to people, of course, a lot faster than we have. But just because we have a vaccine does not mean that the 4,000 deaths that we're seeing every day are not real and that somebody you love or you yourself might not be one of them in the future.

So we've got to do what we can do to protect ourselves, our loved ones and our communities take this seriously. We can't allow mis- and disinformation to continue to take lives as they have. People only realizing how serious this is once it's too late.

BROWN: And as we've seen, the vaccine rollout has been rocky. What do you by about the Biden administration's plan to release nearly all available vaccine doses instead of holding back stock for second doses as is happening now? What do you think? EL-SAYED: Well, this is an emergency situation and we need to start

acting like it, and that's what the Biden transition team and the president-elect is starting to realize, is that we just got to go all out.

That being said, the most important thing to get right here is making sure that on the ground in states and localities and communities across the country that we have the at quad resources to be able to move this vaccine into arms and that really has been the real holdup that has left us without the kind of vaccine rollout that we would like.

So, yes, I think it's important to go all out for all of the doses out as soon as we can but have to fix the part of the problem that exists on the ground in local communities and take that seriously. The last thing I'll say part of the problem here has also been that people are just choosing not to take the vaccine.

That means we have to invest in making sure that we're combating that mis- and disinformation about the vaccine with the truth and science, with folks in local communities who are trusted validaters who can speak to the safety and efficacy of this all-important intervention to take down this pandemic.

BROWN: Certainly, disinformation has been an enemy in fighting this and you're also seeing people refusing to wear masks. I mean, during this week's stunning violence on Capitol Hill, some Republican members, as you see right here, refused to wear them. Your thoughts on seeing this?

EL-SAYED: It is sad to me because these people know better, just like they knew better about the hoax of the president's claims about a stolen election. They know better that this pandemic is real. That is killing people in their communities and that it can take lives faster than we've ever seen in our lifetimes.

And so, the fact that they are perpetuating this, choosing not to do the basic things to protect themselves to send the signal into their community to me speaks to a putting politics over public health over basic science, over the well-being of the people they represent.

And it's shameful and it's wrong and we have to deal with the way that politicization and misinformation and disinformation have wrapped themselves around each other like a maypole when we talk about this pandemic and what we need to do to take it on. These folks know better. They ought to be wearing masks. They ought to be telling their constituents to wear masks and not fall prey to this politicization and this misinformation in this pandemic.

[21:45:03]

BROWN: All right, Dr. Abdul El-Sayed, thank you.

EL-SAYED: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, because of the events this week, Joe Biden might begin with no confirmed cabinet secretaries.

When we come back, I'll speak to Andy Card, the former chief of staff to President George W. Bush about the potential consequences of a delayed transition.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, Donald Trump only has 11 days left in office and we don't know whether that time will be cut short either due to an impeachment conviction or the 25th Amendment. But we do know that the stunning developments of the past week aren't likely to make transition proceedings for the Biden team any smoother.

In fact, "The Washington Post" points out it's increasingly likely that Biden will enter office with an unprecedented zero cabinet secretaries confirmed.

And here to discuss is former White House chief of staff to President George W. Bush, Andy Card.

Thanks so much for coming on, Andy.

Back in November, you and former Clinton chief of staff John Podesta wrote that a delayed transition can cost lives but now we're learning that Biden may take office with a cabinet made up of entirely acting secretaries.

How debilitating is that?

ANDY CARD, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Well, it's debilitating but it's not as bad as it sounds because President Biden will have the chance to have a White House staff in place because nobody on the White House staff needs to be Senate confirmed.

So, Ron Klain, his chief of staff will be building a good staff around the president. He'll have expertise. And then there are career public servants, the senior executives in service, the SES, they're really, really good and President-elect Biden understands their value and I'm sure Ron Klain does.

So, I think they'll actually manage the challenge but it's really not fair for our Senate not to confirm the president's choices as he comes into office and I hope they will find the will to confirm especially the secretaries of state, defense, treasury, HHS, because of this pandemic, and obviously, Homeland Security.

So they've got a lot of work to do, yes, it will be -- I'm going to say they'll have a challenge because they don't have people in those positions but I don't think it will prevent them from having the levers of government ready to be moved should President Biden want to make policy changes and implement them and deal with the challenges as they come forward.

BROWN: That is key.

CARD: We can make it work.

BROWN: That is key, though, that he will have what he needs available to him on day one. You and Podesta also point out that the Bush transition, though, that delay almost certainly impacted the lead-up to 9/11.

Do you see a parallel with the bumpy Biden transition and the pandemic, everything going on here?

CARD: Well, I hope the fact that John Podesta and I called attention to that, put everyone on notice, both in the Trump administration and in the incoming administration, that they've got to scratch and look and find out what's going on.

It's a challenging world right now. Maybe even more challenging than it was when George W. Bush became president. Obviously, we've had a plane crash in Indonesia we don't know much about. We know terrible things are happening in Iran, and Iraq is still a challenge, the things happening in Africa. The Russians are making noise. The Chinese are not behaving very well.

So, yeah, there's a lot to worry about. I hope somebody doesn't take advantage of our situation, and -- but it's very important that President Biden be ready on day one to meet all of the responsibilities in national security, and I'm confident that the team he's putting in place at the White House will be able to do it.

I hope they're getting good information. They'd better climb that learning curve quickly. The good news is, none of them are rookies. I think they'll all know how to do it.

He's put together a good White House staff and I think it's going to work well on day one. But they need those cabinet members in place and I do think the Senate should give the president the benefit of the doubt and get those people confirmed, especially to those major agencies.

BROWN: OK. Let me just ask you because you made an important point about America's adversaries, and just the landscape right now, right, the foreign policy landscape, what do you -- what would be your big concern? If you were in the White House right now, you were chief of staff, and you saw the insurrection that happened on Wednesday, you know foreign adversaries want to sow distrust, undermine American democracy, what would be your big concern right now?

CARD: That somebody would try to take advantage of us while we appear to be in -- have the inability to have our democracy work. Our democracy is working, and we've got to polish it and what happened on the insurgency and yes, it was an insurgency, it was outrageous, outrageous. And the president should have put an end to it as soon as it even had a hint of starting. But that's another story.

But I do worry that some of our adversaries will try to take advantage of us. I think the competency within our --

BROWN: What does that mean, though, take advantage of us? Just so we understand what you're talking about.

CARD: The worst thing would be if they had a terrorist attack on the United States, if there were sleeper cells in the United States, and they did something to take advantage of the horrible action that we saw on the 6th, and try to -- I'm going to say more insurrection, that would be terrible, a 9/11 type thing would be just terrible.

But also we have a situation where Iran and Iraq are boiling over. There are challenges in Africa. Clearly, the Chinese and the Russians are playing games all around the world, and in conflict with the United States policies.

So yeah, there's a lot of places of danger but I am confident that our intelligence agencies, the Defense Department and the state department are really paying attention and they will not allow our president to be ignorant of what is happening and be prepared to have an appropriate response should something happen.

BROWN: Andy Card, thank you so much for sharing your time with us on this Saturday evening. We appreciate it.

CARD: Thank you very much.

And let's go out and polish that democracy.

[21:55:01]

Everybody in America, we're the people. It's our government. We should be polishing our democracy, not trying to tear it down.

BROWN: All right, thank you.

Well, facing another impeachment calls for resignation, the 25th Amendment, and social media bans, President Trump's final days in office are chaotic and uncertain.

Our breaking news coverage continues after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And breaking news into CNN this hour, we have learned that the Indonesian divers say they are confident that they have found the area where a Boeing 737 crashed shortly after takeoff from Jakarta earlier today. The plane was carrying 62 passengers and crew when it crashed.

Rescue crews may also have found debris and fishermen in the area tell CNN they heard a large explosion and felt a large wave around the time the plane is believed to have crashed.

According to -- let's take a moment now and address Twitter banning. The president, from its platform, there are strong opinions on both sides of this move. You probably have an opinion about this.

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley are among those saying that this is, quote, silencing speech, that it's something the Chinese government would do. Well, no matter what your opinion is, the fact is, there was a time

when a president of the United States didn't rely on social media to address the nation.