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Source: Pence Not Ruling Out Invoking 25th Amendment; Rep. Ruben Gallego (D-AZ) Is Interviewed About Trump's Removal; Impeachment Articles Could Be Introduced As Soon As Monday; Federal Prosecutors Filing Charges Against Capital Rioters; Big Tech Responds; U.S. COVID- 19 Cases Exceed 22 Million. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired January 09, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:00:24]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan, thank you so much for joining me.

The big question right now is how will President Trump's term end in the wake of the Capitol riot with a resignation, a historic second impeachment, or maybe removal through the 25th amendment. A source close to the Vice President Mike Pence tells CNN's Jim Acosta, that Mike Pence is not ruling out an effort to invoke the 25th. And get this, he, Mike Pence, and the President have not even spoken since the insurrection according to sources.

Mike Pence was caught in the middle of what you were looking at and then caught in the middle of that riot. He was in the Capitol at the time, along with his family. And the President of the United States has not even called him. Whatever happens, pressure is growing in both parties to force the issue rather than let the President just right out the clock and leave on his own terms.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has told her Democratic colleagues to be ready to return to Washington this week. Here is how Congressman Ted Lieu describes the situation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TED LIEU (D-CA): All of us, including Speaker Pelosi will prefer that Donald Trump simply do the right thing and resign or that Vice President Pence actually show some spine at least for himself and his own family and invoke the 25th amendment. If none of that happens, then on Monday, we will introduce the article of impeachment which is incitement to insurrection, and we do expect a floor vote this coming week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: At least 83 people have been arrested since the violent riots, Wednesday, at the U.S. Capitol, including some of the people now made infamous in these photographs that you're looking at. And hopefully you've already seen one of the most disturbing pieces of new video though from the riot shows an officer screaming in agony and pain as he has been crushed by the pro-Trump mob that is trying to force its way into the Capitol. I want to warn you as we were about to show you this video that you may find it disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Screaming).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: He did survive. Sadly enough, we need to make that point because of what we know now happened to so many on the Capitol. And remember, one Capitol Hill police officer did die in the insurrection. Yet the President has said nothing about him or any of the other four people who have died.

The White House hasn't even taken the steps to honor the officer that was killed by lowering flags to half-staff. You can see a live look at the White House right there, American flag flying high, so far, just nothing but stunning silence from the President.

The mob wasn't only targeting Congress, though, they were also -- they also wanted the Vice President. They made that loud and clear.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: Hang Mike Pence, hang Mike Pence, hang Mike Pence, hang Mike Pence, hang Mike Pence, hang Mike Pence, hang Mike Pence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Hang Mike Pence is what they're shouting. CNN's White House correspondent John Harwood, who's joining me now from Washington. John, thanks for coming on. Hearing those chants, targeting Pence and then learning that Trump hasn't even reached out to him in the days since then, it is truly shocking. I mean, what are you hearing about this?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Look, Kate, Donald Trump has shown us very clearly that he's psychologically disturbed, that he's not capable of recognizing or acting on the difference between right and wrong, that he doesn't possess empathy, that he is concerned exclusively about himself.

If you're somebody who works for Donald Trump, because he's that way, and you are constrained by a sense of law and propriety, eventually he's going to ask you to do something that you are not willing to do. That's what happened with Mike Pence. The President signaled clearly in advance, he would turn on Pence, if Pence upheld his constitutional duty. Pence decided to do that anyway. When he did it, the President attacked him afterwards.

And so what Donald Trump is feeling right now about Mike Pence is not empathy over the fact that people were threatening to hang Mike Pence. It's rage at Mike Pence that he didn't do what Donald Trump wanted. That's why when the White House finally put out a statement on this subject in the name of a deputy the press secretary, it did not even include Mike Pence's name. He said we described -- we decry threats of violence against any member of the administration that shows the mindset and the illness of Donald Trump.

[23:05:12]

BOLDUAN: It doesn't even come from the President. It doesn't even come from the press secretary. And it doesn't mention Mike Pence's name.

HARWOOD: Right.

BOLDUAN: It could have, it was like a wrote statement that could have been issued by an intern at the White House. And that's probably --

HARWOOD: Precisely.

BOLDUAN: -- offending interns. It's remarkable. And it's hard to be astonished at this point. Now, you have Mike Pence, not ruling out an effort to invoke the 25th amendment to remove the President that way. What do you think that really means? What do you think he's doing with this?

HARWOOD: What I think he's doing, Kate, is what members of the administration have done by privately to the President, what Republican senators have done by saying he should resign, what Nancy Pelosi is doing by holding out the threat of impeachment, they're all trying to keep the pressure on Donald Trump for the purpose of deterring him from doing anything more dangerous and harming the nation over the next week and a half that he's still President.

We saw the other night that once he felt that heat, that pressure from across the political system, including Mitch McConnell, the Senate Republican leader, and many others, he then put out that statement, finally recognizing that he's not going to be President after January 20th. That's something that he didn't want to do, that he was browbeaten into doing. But it was important that his supporters hear that from him at least once. He is regretting that statement now.

Nevertheless, it shows he responds to pressure, they're trying to keep the pressure on. And if he's impeached, which could happen next week, not likely that there's going to be a trial anytime soon. But, again, the entire political system, as well as the private sector, social media companies are trying to signal, this was an extremely serious threat to the country that occurred, and we're going to do everything we can to stop it from happening again.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Just hold on, because if he made that statement, and he regrets it, you never know what's going to come out of his mouth next or how it's going to what's going to happen next. Thank you, John.

Right now there is a coast to coast manhunt for those people who you saw, you've seen on video and also on social media who took part in the violent attack on the Capitol. CNN's Evan Perez, he has much more on what has now become a massive investigation.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR U.S. JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Federal authorities around the country are working through the weekend hunting down some of the people involved in Wednesday's terrorist attack on the U.S. Capitol. We know of at least 18 arrests on federal charges and dozens more are facing charges in local court here in Washington.

Among those arrests are Adam Johnson arrested in his home state of Florida. He's seen in pictures carrying how Speaker Nancy Pelosi's lectern. And also arrested Jacob Chansley in Arizona seen in video inside the Capitol wearing a face paint and bare skin hat, the FBI says that Chansley told them he came to Washington because Donald Trump called for his supporters to come and that he organized a group to heed the President's call to action.

Another member of the mob facing charges, Derrick Evans, a delegate in the West Virginia legislature and he announced that he is resigning his seat. Five people died in Wednesday's mob scene including a Capitol Police officer who was attacked by the pro-Trump crowd.

Prosecutors have laid out serious charges against some suspects including against a man who drove from Alabama with a truck allegedly carrying bombs and a handgun and a rifle. Another man arrested with firearms allegedly told friends that he came to kill Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

Evan Perez, CNN, Washington.

BOLDUAN: Evan, thank you so much.

Democratic congressman from Arizona, Ruben Gallego, he is among the lawmakers calling for Donald Trump to be removed from office one way or another. I'm going to show you that is him that you can see standing there in his shirt sleeves. That's him on top of the desk in these images that we're showing you. He's a former Marine. He leapt into action during the breach to try to assist his colleagues.

He also let some journalists shelter in his office. He was one of the last people to leave the house floor to help his colleagues get out of there. When the house eventually returned, as we know now hours and hours later to the floor after the siege, I want to play for you some of what Congressman Gallego said to his colleagues.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RUBEN GALLEGO (D-AZ): Madam Speaker, I left my youth. I left my serenity. I left it all in Iraq for this country. Because there was this one precious idea that we all had, that we all believed that this country was going to protect everyone's individual rights, that you're going to be able to vote, that you're going to be able to preserve democracy and pass it on as a legacy as an inheritance to every American. But today, today there was treason in this House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[23:10:09]

BOLDUAN: Congressman Ruben Gallego, he joins me now. Congressman, thank you for coming on. I want to ask you about, I want to ask you about the day in a second, because your words were really striking that evening to me and so many other people. But first, on the immediate, what we're looking at right now, CNN has learned that the Vice President, according to sources is not ruling out an effort to invoke the 25th amendment. What do you take from that? What does that mean to you right now?

GALLEGO: That means nothing. Right now, we need two things. We need compatibility. And we need some type of insurance of this President is not going to overstep his boundaries, again, between now and inauguration. And this type of lack of decision making on the behalf of the Vice President, which is the only thing that really triggers the 25th amendment does not give us any types of assurances, therefore, we'll need to continue forward with an impeachment.

BOLDUAN: What is going to happen this week with impeachment?

GALLEGO: Again, since we're not getting two things, I don't believe Trump's going to resign and or nor we're going to get in both the 25th amendment. I believe we're going to be voting on impeachment, probably either Tuesday or Wednesday. And then at that point, we'll go over to the House.

Now, the most important thing that we're trying to assure here is number one, of course, accountability. The President of the United States, essentially ordered an insurrection, throwing a mob at Congress while we were trying to do our duties and, you know, count the Electoral College votes. So number one is important. We do that for the sake of history. So every president knows that they can't use their short time left in office for them to do this without any repercussions.

But number two, we actually can't predict what else this madman is going to do between now and January 20th. So having impeachment on the docket, something that the Senate could quickly take up is also really important, and a minimum will keep them at bay until we have a safe transfer of power to Joe Biden.

BOLDUAN: Still worth it even if as Mitch McConnell is signaling the Senate isn't going to -- he says the Senate there isn't enough time for a Senate impeachment trial to happen, you still think it is worth it to move forward in the House with impeachment?

GALLEGO: Look, I've seen Mitch McConnell move with swift urgency when they needed to confirm a Supreme Court justice. I've seen him move fairly quickly when they needed to get their tax cuts for all their rich buddies. I'm pretty sure that if we send over an impeachment, this President overstepped his boundaries, either he will find himself, you know, basically, I think being overrun by some better senators that actually understand about the integrity of democracy.

And I think that the end matters. And just to want to point out also, you know, at the end of the day, Mitch McConnell is now, you know, one of 50 senators, he's not necessarily in charge.

BOLDUAN: Do you think you're going to have any Republican support in the House for impeachment? GALLEGO: I hope so. I think there's a lot of Republicans that were disgusted by what happened. Hopefully, the Republicans that, you know, I saw on the floor with me that were in fear, that were swearing at Donald Trump under their breaths, and in the secure room will find their courage to actually come and join us on this.

But at the end of the day, if it's just Democrats that have to hold this President accountable and set the Precedent that you can't try to bully, you can't try to stop the process of democracy, you know, 14 days before the, you know, before swearing in on Irishman day, then we'll do it. I think, at this point, the United States, I mean, yes, these people are used to the Democrats being the ones that are responsible and the ones that hold government accountable.

BOLDUAN: Obviously, the focus needs to be on what's next and what comes next. But I do not think people really appreciate just how real dangerous and truly horrific it was, as it played out in the Capitol as you guys were on the floor. How -- you were or a Marine, as I mentioned, at the top, you have talked about how you had to lean on that training in those moments, as -- there's been a, you know, a period of days have passed, how do you describe what you all live through now?

GALLEGO: It was just utter chaos. You know, there was a lack of leadership, I would say, from Capitol police. You know, there wasn't really clear directions even when they told people to get their gas masks ready. There wasn't any direction about how to put the gas masks on, which is what initially got me more involved, I guess, in the in that process. There was real fear in the air.

And I really thought that at some point, this crowd or this, you know, mob of terrorists would break through and they would assault us. And, you know, from what I saw on my way out, that's exactly what was about to happen. You know, I saw you know this very slim, very like flimsy door being barricaded by some small, you know, chairs in two security guards with weapons.

[23:15:12]

Had they gotten through that, and if it wasn't for the police officer shooting that terrorists trying to come through, we probably would have had a problem, they probably would have overrun us, and we probably would have had maybe fatalities among members of Congress.

BOLDUAN: Congressman, thanks for coming on.

GALLEGO: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, there is a second impeachment in the works as we've just been discussing, but there are only a few days left in the Trump presidency, setting aside the politics as I was talking about it with the Congressman. Is there enough time to get this job done? We're going to ask an expert about this. Plus President Trump's fighting words just ahead of the riot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to have to fight much harder, I'd fight, did fight, I'd fight, did fight, bump up, we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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BOLDUAN: House Democrats are actively preparing new impeachment articles against President Donald Trump. They say the danger he poses is too great even with his term soon coming to an end. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says that they are prepared to introduce the articles as soon as Monday if the President hasn't stepped down. We just talked to a congressman who thinks they'll vote on Tuesday or Wednesday. But we know that the President has no plans to resign. He's preparing for another Senate trial.

[23:20:04]

And sources say he is considering Rudy Giuliani and Alan Dershowitz for his defense team. Manu Raju has the latest details from Capitol Hill.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Democrats are pushing full steam ahead to give Donald Trump the dubious distinction of being the only President in American history who will be impeached twice, that we're all signs are headed for an impeachment vote by early in the week.

Now, the question is exactly when Nancy Pelosi will make it official that they will go down this route. She is indicating they plan to do just that because she has demanded the President resign or Vice President Mike Pence take those extraordinary constitutional actions to force the President out of office by the 25th amendment of the United States.

Now Pence is showing no indication that he's doing that. The President is showing no indication he is going to step aside. So, Democrats plan to move forward with an impeachment resolution accusing him of inciting an insurrection. Now Democrats behind the scenes have been trying to get cosponsors on both sides of the aisle to sign on to this proposal.

And the Democrats believe that they're making good progress to getting most if not all of their members on board behind this. There are 222 Democrats in the House, there's an expectation that they'll be able to get a majority of support within that full House when the chamber votes potentially by the middle of the week.

Now the big question will be what happens then because there'll only be a few days left and Donald Trump's presidency and there's no indication of the Senate will come back before January 19th to begin an impeachment trial to remove Donald Trump from office. Mitch McConnell, the Senate Majority Leader, has indicated to his members that it would require the support of all 100 senators to change the schedule and come back into session for a trial that essentially is not going to happen.

So that may mean that an impeachment trial may be kicked into the new administration when Joe Biden takes office in January 20th. At that same time, Democrats will assume control of the Senate Majority. So the question will be how that impeachment trial would work in a Democratic majority, with a Democratic President going after a former President tried to convict him on the charges of inciting an insurrection and effectively prevent him from holding office again.

So a lot of questions still remain. But the moment Democrats are furious to the President's rule in the Wednesday mob that led to multiple people dying and deaths and clashes including one police officer, U.S. Capitol police officer who died. And they believe the President needs to pay a price for that. So impeachment seems almost certain to happen in the matter of days.

Manu Raju, CNN, Capitol Hill.

BOLDUAN: Manu, thank you so much.

Joining me right now is Alan Frumin, he's a former Senate parliamentarian, which is the Senate's chief adviser on the interpretation of all of the chambers, rules, and procedures. Alan, thank you for coming on. Can you talk to me about how this would actually work? Do you think a President can be impeached in the span of a little more than a week?

ALAN FRUMIN, U.S. SENATE PARLIAMENTARIAN EMERITUS: I think if the will is there in the Senate, that that could be accomplished.

BOLDUAN: You know, Manu, was mentioning kind of the position that Mitch McConnell has right now, "The Washington Post" obtained a memo that is being circulated by the senator where he argues that he does not think it is possible to hold a Senate trial before Trump's terms end. And here is how he explains it in part.

He writes in this memo again, it would require the consent of all 100 senators to conduct any business of any kind during the scheduled performance session prior to January 19, and therefore the consent of all 100 senators to begin acting on any articles of impeachment during those sessions. Is he right, Alan? What is he saying here?

FRUMIN: Well, what he's referring to is the fact that the Senate has established a series of pro forma sessions by unanimous consent. And during those sessions, the terms of the pro forma sessions are that no business may be transacted. So, on the face of the unanimous consent agreement creating these pro forma sessions and prohibiting business until the Senate reconvenes for actual business on the 19th, that that's a plausible state of affairs, that's a plausible interpretation of what that those orders provide.

However, it's possible that there is a way of getting around that. A couple of years after 9/11 the Senate adopted a resolution authorizing its two leaders to modify the time of convening of a session of the Senate. This was done really in response to 9/11 when the Senate could not convene on 9/11 but needed to convene on 9/12. But it had no authority to convene on September 12th at the hour that the leaders wanted to convene. But nonetheless, they sent around a hotline and told the senators were convening at 11 o'clock on September 12th.

[23:25:14]

And at least one senator who was the guardian of the Senate rules, Senator Robert C. Byrd came to me very alarmed that the Senate had convened in essence without authority. And we discussed the need for some authority, something that would give the two leaders of the Senate the same kind of authority that every school board in the country has, when a foot of snow is approaching to either canceled school or to delay the beginning of the school day.

And so the Senate did adopt a resolution several years later, that basically authorizes the two leaders if they believe circumstances warranted to quote, modify a convenient time. And so --

BOLDUAN: So to, yes, to your point, if there is a will, there is a way. That's exactly, that seems to be exactly it. Before I have to let you go, can you just give me your opinion on what an impeachment trial after Trump's term expires would look like?

FRUMIN: Well, the Senate has, in fact, conducted an impeachment trial of the Secretary of War in 1876 after he resigned. And so a trial can occur against somebody who's no longer in the office from which his impeachable actions emanated. It would be unusual. There are, obviously a case first impression.

Under the Constitution when the President is tried, the Chief Justice of the United States must preside over the trial. Of course, the Constitution doesn't contemplate a trial of a former president. And so we don't know, at least I don't know whether or not Chief Justice Roberts, let's say would begin presiding if the proceedings began, before Donald Trump, before his term ended, and he was out of office and whether or not Chief Justice Roberts would preside.

But would then abandon the chair when Joe Biden became president, so these proceedings, if they go forward, shall we say, we'll be plowing new ground, nothing that any of us have really seen before.

BOLDUAN: Alan, your knowledge on this is just amazing. I'm so thankful. Thanks for coming on.

FRUMIN: Thank you very much for having me.

BOLDUAN: No matter what happens in the aftermath of the attack on the U.S. Capitol, Joe Biden is set to take the oath of office as President of the United States in 11 days. And sources tell CNN, Vice President Mike Pence, he will be attending the inauguration. As we now know his boss, Donald Trump, has announced he will not.

Biden said Friday that Pence would be welcome. CNN's Athena Jones, she's standing by live in Wilmington, Delaware with the latest on this. Athena, Biden was crystal clear in saying that Mike Pence is welcome to the inauguration. What he was not so clear about was when he has been asked a couple times now about whether the President he thinks the President of the United States should be impeached. What are you hearing about that?

ATHENA JONES, CNN U.S. CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kate, you're right. President-elect Biden has not been beating the drums for impeachment. He has not been eager to add his voice to the Democrats calling for this. And there are two competing themes here. The idea of accountability, holding President Trump accountable for inciting the attack on the Capitol on Wednesday, but there's also the theme of healing.

And we know that a Biden all during his run for the White House has been using the idea of unifying the country, bringing the country together as one of his main arguments. So those are the competing themes. He was asked about whether he thought bringing articles of impeachment was a good idea during a press conference in Wilmington on Friday, and he didn't answer directly.

He said several things. He talked about the timing saying, if there were six months to go, maybe then you'd throw everything at it, you try impeachment or 25th amendment. But then he ended up saying that look, I need to focus on I am focused on the future, on my agenda that I want carried out. He said it's going to be a decision up to Congress what they do when it comes to impeachment. But I am focused on the virus, on the vaccine, on economic growth.

One of the first things he wants to do is make sure that most Americans get that $2,000 stimulus check. And so he wants Congress to be ready to hit the ground running and that's where the conflict lies if this ends up being something that goes into the next Senate. He'll be trying to do that while Biden is trying to have his team confirmed and get his agenda off the ground. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Great point, fascinating. Athena, thank you so much.

[23:29:51]

Still coming up, federal prosecutors are looking at everyone involved in the siege on the Capitol. Does that include President Donald Trump himself? We're going to have that and the charges that are being filed against some of the rioters. That's next.

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[23:33:35]

BOLDUAN: Welcome back to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Kate Bolduan. Thanks for sticking with us.

A source close to the vice president tells CNN Jim Acosta that Mike Pence is not ruling out an effort to invoke the 25th amendment to remove the president from office, that would allow Pence and members of the Cabinet to remove Donald Trump from the Oval Office deeming him unfit to carry out his duties.

We're also hearing that Pence and the President have not even spoken since the interaction, have not spoken since Wednesday. Meanwhile, House Democrats are saying that they are on track to introduce an Article of Impeachment against President Trump as early as Monday for instigating and inciting the riot that you're looking at video of right now.

The big question is will this be a bipartisan effort unlike the last impeachment, and at least 83 people have now been arrested since the violent riots Wednesday at the at the U.S. Capitol, including some of the people who've become infamous in these photos.

And also remember that one Capitol Hill police officer died in the siege. Yet the President has said nothing about him or any of the other four people who died quite frankly and if you see right there as live picture of the White House, the White House has not even taken the step to honor that police officer by lowering flags to half staff. They have done that on Capitol Hill.

Joining me now is CNN Legal Analyst and former federal prosecutor Elie Honig for much more the legal path forward.

[23:35:01]

So as I mentioned Elie, at least 83 people are arrested in connection to the riots. I have to say that when you see the pictures from Capitol Hill, that number still feels low to me. How is this all going to play out when you are talking about 1000s of people involved here?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Kate, I agree. 83. Look, it's a decent start. But there were hundreds, if not thousands of people inside that Capitol building. And to be clear, everyone who went inside that Capitol Building without authorization is guilty of at least a low level federal crime.

Now plenty of people are guilty of far more destruction of property up to and including murder, people were killed inside that building. How it ought to work is federal prosecutors and law enforcement agents around the country need to be coordinating in a centralized manner, and coordinating with state authorities to round these people up by now they've probably moved mostly dispersed and gone back home. But every single one of them needs to be found identified, prosecuted and held accountable.

BOLDUAN: There has been some talk of the Justice Department even investigating President Trump for his role in provoking the riots. What's extraordinarily hard to do?

HONIG: It would be difficult. Look, I'm under no, you know, no illusion about that to charge somebody who was the former President if we get to that point. But look, the people who commit crimes with their own hands are certainly guilty, but under our legal system, so to is anybody who incited them, who aided and abetted that meaning, who fired them up to do it, who encouraged them to do it?

And I think if you look at the President's words here, the way he spoke to them, you know, come down to D.C. will be wild, right? We need to go down to the Capitol, he told them go down to the Capitol show strength. That's exactly what they did.

And if I'm looking at this as a prosecutor, the best evidence to me is, look what the President said, after they were done ransacking the Capitol. He praised them. He said, great patriots. He said, remember this day, I would hold that up in front of a jury and say, that's his intent. He was happy. They did exactly what he wanted them to do. So yes, not an easy case to bring but prosecutors job sometimes is to bring tough cases.

BOLDUAN: Is this something that the Biden Justice Department could pick up on and take up after January 20th?

HONIG: 100 percent. Yes, this will not be anywhere near done by January 20. This will take months to find everybody, to identify everybody. I think the Biden DOJ has an obligation to take a hard look here, again, not just that the people smashing windows in the capital, but the people behind it, and that includes the president that includes other people who spoke at that rally. I think there's an obligation to open an investigation, get all the facts and make an impartial decision.

BOLDUAN: Separate from that we are looking at a move towards -- a very quick move towards impeachment in the House and potentially maybe, maybe not in the Senate. But in anticipation of that, we have reporting that the President is considering who would be representing him in a Senate impeachment trial and that he's considering bringing on Rudy Giuliani and Alan Dershowitz to defend him, Elie, in a Senate impeachment trial. Your take on that?

HONIG: I'll try to be polite. I guess I would call those picks suboptimal. Alan Dershowitz, look, we can -- people can agree or disagree. I think he's thoroughly discredited himself by some of the ridiculous positions that he took in the last impeachment. I think he's also contradicted himself.

Rudy Giuliani has about the worst pick possible for a couple of reasons. First of all, he's part of this. He stood in front of that crowd moments before they went down to the Capitol. And he said, trial by combat, also more fundamentally, Rudy Giuliani was one of the biggest factors behind pushing the lie that drove this whole thing, the lie that the election was stolen, not to mention, Rudy Giuliani reportedly is under federal investigation right now might be in a position where he wants a pardon.

So, he's got conflicts of interest all over the place. Look, the President can choose who he wants, but boy, Rudy Giuliani would be a ridiculous decision for him.

BOLDUAN: Elie, thank you for coming on.

HONIG: Thanks Kate.

BOLDUAN: Social media companies have pulled the plug on President Trump and he is furious. Coming up new CNN reporting and how Trump intends to hit back. Stay with us.

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[23:43:02]

BOLDUAN: President Trump is set this week to ramp up his fight against Twitter and the other social media platforms that have now banned him. Aides are encouraging the President to frame the ban as an example of big text alleged anti conservative bias as a way to galvanize his base and very clearly shift attention away from the horrific tragedy of Wednesday's insurrection on the Capitol and the blame that he has earned.

And if President Trump is looking for a new platform with a huge reach the right-wing social media app Parler might not be it Apple, Amazon and Google are all removing it effectively shutting it down until a new web hosting provider can be found. So what does this all mean going forward?

Joining me right now for more on this is the Editor-in-Chief of Wired, Nick Thompson. Nick, what do you think that looks like? First and foremost, if Trump is going to be ramping up his fight against Twitter and other social media platforms this week?

NICHOLAS THOMPSON, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "WIRED": Well, I think he'll be denouncing them. They'll be asking his allies to denounce them. He'll be saying it's a violation of free speech. It's an example of conservative bias. It's reason why the tech companies need to be broken up. He'll experiment on different platforms.

But the truth is that the big platforms are his largest megaphone, so it's going to be harder for him to get this message out than it would have been a week ago.

BOLDUAN: Yes, that's very true. I mean, one thing that, well, the President is already all -- has already been saying and will continue to obviously say is that this move is censorship. Right. This is stifling free speech is what he and other conservatives say about this. Do you think that the social media platforms themselves have pushed back forcefully enough against this line against this narrative?

THOMPSON: I don't know if they have. I mean, the complexity of Trump's narrative is that in a way, he is right his speech is being stifled. On the other hand, it's a private company. The private company can do whatever it wants. It's a problem when the government stifle someone's speech not when a company stifles the government's speech.

[23:45:10]

So I don't think the tech companies, though, in the tech platforms, though, have done a particularly good job of making their arguments clearly and coherently. Why haven't they done that, in part, because their arguments aren't clear and coherent.

If they were going to kick Trump off their platforms for violating their terms of service, they could have done it and really at any point in the last four years. They chose this particular moment, because of the particular circumstances of last week. But they're in a little bit of a bind, because they haven't acted with total clarity over the last four years.

BOLDUAN: Because I was actually going to ask you, I mean, people, obviously, people have been making the case for his entire presidency, that Trump should be tossed off Twitter, and Facebook and the like. I mean, did it surprise you that that it actually happened?

THOMPSON: No, it didn't surprise me. And it didn't surprise me for two reasons. One, Twitter has lots of terms that you can violate, and Trump has violated most of them. But he had never so clearly violated inciting violence. And that is the number one term when you go into Twitter's policies, that's number one. So he incited violence. So that's reason number one.

Reason number two, the main reason they didn't kick him off, or a main reason is that they were scared of him, because he's the president, and he had a lot of power. And he can pass laws and cause problems. He's not going to be the president in two weeks. So they're not afraid of him. So they can penalize him.

So in some ways, it was just because of that. He's lost his power. So now he's banned.

BOLDUAN: You have, you know, also you have Apple and Google and Amazon dropping the alternative social media site, Parler. Now, this is all kind of happening in real time as we speak.

THOMPSON: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Because kicking it off, you know, I don't really wonder what the impact of that is, I more wonder, kind of how this fits into a larger reckoning, a larger conversation that the country really needs to be having about social media in a way that we've never have really seen before.

I mean, you have the sitting president, United States kicked off any kind of platform because they consider it dangerous. I have a colleague who's been reporting on extremism for quite some time. And she put it this way, it really had me thinking, I don't think as a culture, we've grappled with the way social media is a brain washing machine. In this moment, is this a moment of opportunity to really deal with this question?

THOMPSON: It could be but we're debating something else entirely, right. So the main problem with social media isn't that Donald Trump is on the platform, and that he tweets things that can be interpreted as threats.

The main problem is that the algorithms sort us in to filter bubbles. They activate the sort of lizard parts of our brains. And particularly in the case of Facebook, they push us into groups with like minded people who drive each other to extremes.

So the real problem is that the core algorithms at Twitter and at Facebook can lead to the decay of civil conversations and civil society. That is a huge conversation and an important one, and it is one that has been taking place at some level for at least four years.

But, you know, we've seen the results of effective action not being taken, which is the right at the Capitol. But we're not dealing with that much core issue. We're dealing with the question of whether Trump has been censored or not, which is important. But it's not. It's not at the center of this problem.

BOLDUAN: And doesn't get to the core of it. Really.

THOMPSON: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Nick, thank you so much.

THOMPSON: Thank you so much for having me.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us. COVID cases and deaths in the United States have never been higher than they are right now. Vaccines aren't rolling out nearly as fast as promised.

The incoming Biden administration says it has a plan. But it's not without risk. We'll be right back.

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[23:52:51]

BOLDUAN: The number of confirmed coronavirus cases in the United States passed 22 million a short time ago. Two million of those cases happened just nine days into 2021. And there's a grim milestone for California, it is reporting 695 deaths on Saturday. That is an all time daily high.

Vaccinations very clearly cannot come soon enough or fast enough, more than six and a half million people in the U.S. have gotten their first vaccine dose. That's the latest update from the CDC.

The problem is, that's a fraction of the doses that have been shipped out and that are available right now. The incoming Biden administration is betting on a new strategy to speed things up. It wants to release nearly every vaccine dose right away all together instead of holding back some for when people need to get their second shot.

CNN medical analyst and viral specialist, Dr. Jorge Rodriguez is joining me right now for more on this.

Doctor, thank you for coming in. The New York Times is reporting that I want to start first on California if I could, because the New York Times is reporting that in the coming days, one in every 10 residents of Los Angeles County will have tested positive for COVID.

It's really -- the numbers are numbing. You and I've talked about this so many times. But it is -- it's unbelievable. Why can't they get a handle on this right now in LA?

DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: You know what, there's so many factors that it's very difficult to point to just one but you're right. There have been 900,000 people that have tested positive out of a county of 10 million so soon it will be one in 10.

You know, the tinderbox has been lit is the problem. And people think that, you know, Los Angeles is -- are just -- these mountain mansions but it's a very dense city. It is a very diverse city. It's a city that has a lot of essential workers working multiple jobs. It's a city that is very expensive to live in. Therefore, there are many people living in small areas, multigenerational, that's why it's difficult to get a handle on it.

[23:55:03]

This is an octopus with many different tentacles, and they're all contributing in some way. So we just need to go back to basics seriously, besides the masks. Besides the distancing, there's one thing that we need to realize that everyone including those we love and family, because that's where it's been spreading the most can infect other people. It's difficult.

BOLDUAN: I'm also -- yes. And I'm also wondering, I mean, when, with the really dire reports coming out of the hospitals, I mean, every eight minutes someone is dying from coronavirus in L.A., can it get much worse? What does that even look like right now?

RODRIGUEZ: It absolutely can get much worse and chances are over the next couple of weeks, it is going to get much worse because what we're going to be seeing as far as deaths, two weeks from now is something that is happening today something that happened in New Years. Right now we're seeing the upswing from Christmas.

And I would not be surprised if California especially Los Angeles has a very high percentage of that variant that may be found in other countries right now. That is increasing the infectivity. So it is going to get worse and what people need to realize the more people get infected, the more mutations are going to happen. And the less likely that we can control this. So we need to start really buttoning down again, right now.

BOLDUAN: And so the Biden administration now says that it's going to try to speed up the vaccination effort by releasing all available doses rather than holding half back to guarantee that second dose that everyone needs. What do you think of that strategy, Doctor?

RODRIGUEZ: I want to start off by applauding the Biden administration for at least discussing this, at least having a plan. I think it's a dangerous strategy to be quite honest. The problem is not right now that we don't have enough vaccines to give people. It is the distribution of giving the vaccine to people, it is getting people to want to get the vaccine.

I think one of the major problems is that there is not a national concerted copyable way of doing things from state to state. If this were a war and we said hey, there is a draft, we wouldn't let Oregon do it differently from Maryland, it would be one concerted way of doing it states, some are richer than others, some have different health care systems than others. So therefore, the distribution varies.

And also, there is enough distrust from among some people with this vaccine, that if we now start doing things in a way that science hasn't proven, I think it will only add to this distress, for example, if you give someone just one vaccine, yes, they may get protection, you know, for a few months, but then what if then they become susceptible again, and we don't have any vaccines? We know what works. We should concentrate on distributing the vaccine as planned. That's what we need to be doing in my opinion.

BOLDUAN: It's good point. Doctor, thank you very much.

RODRIGUEZ: Thank you, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Good to see you. Thank you. Just ahead for us the latest from Washington on the possibility of invoking the 25th amendment to remove the president, the United States from office new reporting on that, just ahead.

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