Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Republicans Split On How To Respond Trump Inciting Capitol Riot; House Formally Introduces Article Of Impeachment Against Trump; House Democrats Introduce Article Of Impeachment Charging President With Inciting An Insurrection; House Moves To Impeach Trump If Pence Won't Invoke 25th Amendment; GOP Representative Speaks Out Against Trump, Stops Short Of Impeachment. Aired 12-12.30p ET

Aired January 11, 2021 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Hello to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm John King in Washington. Thank you for sharing a very consequential day with us, dramatic breaking news in the congress this hour.

House Democrats charging President Donald Trump with a single article of impeachment "Incitement of insurrection." This move marks a clear escalation in the democratic push to remove the president from office even though he is in his final days. A key Democrat says expect a full floor vote by Wednesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM MCGOVERN (D-MS): It will happen again if there is not a consequence for his action. So it is important that we act and it is important that we act in a very serious and deliberative manner and we will. Look, we expect this up on the floor on Wednesday and I expect it will pass.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Democratic momentum toward impeachment leaves little room for an off ramp. Just last hour Republicans objected to a democratic resolution calling on the vice president to invoke the 25th amendment and to oust President Trump.

The president we are told may deliver remarks today. He plans to lash out at the big tech companies now banning him from their platforms. Aides and advisers say the president is in a venting mood and then he told allies over the weekend he is not at all at fault for last week's deadly insurrection despite his words all caught on camera.

A Republican strategy session set for this afternoon will tell us a lot about if there is any Republican desire now to punish the president? Some Republicans over the weekend say yes, the president did commit an impeachable offense and that he should leave.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Republican colleague Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska says President Trump should resign. She said "He's caused enough damage." Do you agree?

SEN. PAT. TOOMEY (R-PA): Yes, I do. I think at this point with just a few days left it's the best path forward, the best way to get this person in the rearview mirror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: That is significant to hear but Senator Pat Toomey at least right now, is in the minority when it comes to Republicans willing to say that about the president. The bulk of them saying impeachment are too divisive. A key Mitch McConnell ally says it is unnecessary and listen here, how many times have we heard this before? He suggests though the president he'll learn his lesson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ROY BLUNT (R-MO): My personal view is that the president touched a hot stove on Wednesday and is unlikely to touch it again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We've heard that before too many times. Senator Mitch McConnell says he will keep the upper chamber out of session though, until the 19th that's one day before the Biden inaugural. That schedule complicates the timing of any set of trial and it complicates the early days of the Biden presidency.

Joining now to discuss this big moment share their expertise reporting and insights CNN's Phil Mattingly CNN's Kaitlan Collins and Impeachment Law Professor Ross Garber. Phil to you on the hill front Democrats seem to be full speed ahead here. Over the weekend the number three House Democrat Jim Clyburn said maybe we'll hold this after we pass it and not send it directly to the Senate.

But number two, the majority of the leader standing - today seems to suggest if it passes this week he wants to do it quickly, where are Democrats headed here.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think more the later than the former. And look, I think it underscores one, a couple things, actually how fast this is moving, right?

The leaders just on Thursday Chuck Schumer in the Senate and Nancy Pelosi over in the House made clear that the president either needed to be removed via the 25th amendment or they would consider impeachment. That is now moved into impeachment being an absolute certainty and that has repercussions in terms of when the articles get sent over?

What the senate actually does with them? You noted the Senate is out of session until the 19th that would mean if the articles come over on the 19th the trial begins at noon. The very next day January 20th, that's the inauguration of the 46th President of the United States, Joseph R. Biden. So Democrats right now are grappling with all of the different issues at play here.

And it underscores that this was not their plan, this was not what they wanted to do. This is something they feel like they have to do in the wake of Wednesday. So where things stand right now? Democrats absolutely have the votes to impeach President Trump. The vote is likely to occur on Wednesday.

You noted the four-page resolution with the single impeachment charge has been filed right now that is what will be voted on. Right now Speaker Pelosi has made clear they're still waiting to hear back from Vice President Pence as to whether or not he's willing to invoke the 25th amendment?

I tell you up here on Capitol Hill there is no expectation that is happening that means full speed ahead on impeachment. I think one of the other big outstanding questions right now and you heard on in the open John is, where Republicans going to be on this?

Obviously you have the 4:30 pm call with leader Kevin McCarthy. Right now I am told from Democrats I think maybe a half dozen, maybe a few more Republicans are considering it, will be willing to come over but there is a lot of different dynamics that play in their Republican conference, too.

KING: I'll circle back to you on that point in just a minute. I want to get to the White House though Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, we're told we might hear from the president today.

[12:05:00]

KING: He obviously now is banned from Twitter, banned from Facebook, and banned from a dozen or so internet platforms that he could use and he has used to spread his hate and to spread his lies. What are we to hear today, and is there any consideration at the White House the president trying to blunt this off?

He's about to get a black stand in history, the only president in history to be impeached twice. Is he going to come forward in a tone of contrition or defiance?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I would not expect contrition. The president has been telling people that he regrets making that video that he issued late last week after many advisers told him, you're at risk at being potentially removed from office if you do not express regret and denounce what happened at the Capitol on Wednesday.

And so, now of course the president privately is walking back that statement, saying he wishes he had done so. Of course we've seen that happen many times before. But I would expect to see a defiant President Trump and there are some of the top aides even questioning what his mindset is going to be? I mean, look at what he had this weekend, he did not go golfing, he was deprived of his favorite social media account, Twitter, of course, and the president is losing and hemorrhaging Republican support. So I think that is the head space that the president is in going into his final few days in office.

And he also has a vice president who has not put out a statement saying he's ruling out the 25th amendment. And while we do not believe it's going to happen, of course, it seems incredibly unlikely. I think that does say something in and of itself. And so, I wouldn't expect the president to resign that is something that other people have been throwing around.

That is not a conversation that I've heard the president is at all entertaining and so, he is going to go out this last week. There are talks about him giving a speech potentially today, talking about how he was banned from Twitter permanently.

But so far there are so discussions that are happening and we don't know if we're sure that we're actually going to see or hear from the president today because right now he has nothing on his schedule except a private Medal of Freedom Ceremony.

KING: Ross, help us understand a lot of people around the country are asking is it, you can impeach him and the senate has to decide whether or not to remove him or if he's already gone, to sanction him or convict him anyway, to bar him from running for office ever again?

There are other people who say, what about the 14th amendment? And we can put some of it up here I am not going to read it all. Section 3 of the 14th amendment talks about taking action against anybody, a Senator, member of congress of president who takes an oath of office to defend the constitution and then engage in insurrection or rebellion against the same or give an aide or comfort to the enemies there of. Are there other steps or what is the menu?

If you're looking to punish the president through action in congress, what is the menu?

ROSS GARBER, IMPEACHMENT LAW PROFESSOR, TULANE UNIVERSITY: Yes. So since we've got the 14th amendment up on the screen, I think that's the first one to deal with. It does talk about somebody who is engaged in insurrection not being able to serve in public office and that makes good sense.

The issue is who decides and when? I think the constitution is pretty clear that if a president engages in high crimes and misdemeanors including insurrection, it's the impeachment process that kicks in.

So I think that really leaves impeachment and the 25th amendment. As you noted, the 25th amendment is not likely to succeed but it does sort of provide kind of a sort of - over the president's head. It shows him that the vice president and the cabinet are sort of in control of his fate and the notion is it might actually cause him not to take action then there's the impeachment. And you noted also with impeachment as a practical matter the Senate

is not coming back in to do an impeachment trial before he's out of office. But you know, there too, is it impossible for the senate to come back in? It's very, very hard. It may not be impossible.

Again, a potential sort of - over the president's head. And then there is this notion of the Senate proceeding after the president leaves office which could potentially have the practical consequence of precluding him from running for president again and there are some people who disagree about that issue and then also potentially stripping him of the benefits of being a former president so all of that is on the menu.

KING: And as we try to sort where this heads Phil, you mentioned there is great uncertainty among Republicans. The president's fiercest allies are saying all the Democrats now are trying to divide the country ignoring the fact that they support the president's lives for two months after the election and in doing so more than divided the country.

But this is an interesting tweet today Josh Holmes is the former top advisor still an advisor, outside adviser to the majority leader still Majority Leader Mitch McConnell in the Senate the more time images and stories removed from Wednesday the worse it gets.

If you're not in a white hot rage over what happened by now you're not paying attention. Now Josh Holmes worked in the Capitol like many including yourself who - if you were there the other day your lives were put at risk. You are angry and understandably and justifiably so but he's also very close to Mitch McConnell. I could read that as a green light for Republicans.

[12:10:00]

KING: A green light for Republicans you know what the president needs to be held accountable. You should be mad and you should hold those people responsible accountable.

MATTINGLY: Yes look, I think - so a couple of things. One obviously, I would subscribe to Josh's statement in terms of how I think everybody feels up here. But I do think I've talked to a number of lawmakers both Democrat and Republican over the course of the last 24 to 48 hours as more videos have come out, as the videos have come out of a Capitol police officer being dragged and then beaten and they've gotten angrier and angrier and angrier.

Now what does that actually lead to it's an open question. I think the issue right now at the United States Senate is not necessarily Mitch McConnell it's that you need unanimous consent for the Senate to come back into session before January 19th based on the agreed-upon schedule. That means all 100 Senators would have to agree to come back early in order to consider removing the president.

While there may be a number of Republicans who are viscerally outraged by what occurred while there may be some Republicans who have made clear they want the president to resign or believe he committed impeachable offenses.

That does not make up all of the Republicans. Keep in mind there were still Republicans who voted to object to electors after the attack occurred not just the 140 plus in the House but also seven in the Unites State Senate. So that's the biggest issue right now in the Senate.

I think it's more of a live ball game in the house right now where Republicans again, you talk to them and everyone is getting angrier and angrier and angrier as they kind of fully grasp just how serious, how the severe and how really real the possibility of massacre or mass bloodshed was during this time?

And whether or not that persuades instead of maybe four or five or six Republicans who feel safe in their districts who are more moderate? And joining Democrats in this vote on Wednesday when it occurs but maybe 10, 12, 15, again I want to make this clear, Democrats are reaching out. They're trying to find Republicans to join them, they're trying to find bigger name Republicans to join them as well.

And I think John you probably have an idea of one in particular that I'm talking about. They have not said where they're going yet? But the more Republicans join on the Democrats believe that helps them make their case and they believe they've seen enough evidence that that should occur.

KING: And Kaitlan, back to you on that point. We don't hear from the president because he has been banned. There are some people complaining about that. We can have that debate as things go on but the president has used his platforms to insight hate, insight violence and to spread lies so you can understand on the one hand even though there are bigger issues at play here.

Take us more inside the reporting at the White House where he's telling the allies over the weekend that he does not see himself as at all responsible here. So it is OK to have a rally with your supporters and tell them we're going to march on the Capitol, to tell them we need to get rid of the congress people who vote against us and we must not be weak. The president thinks that was OK.

COLLINS: Well, look at what he was doing is that was happening because there was a freak-out and suing inside the West Wing as they were watching the halls of the Capitol being breached, kind of is horrified as the rest of us was we were watching this.

But that was not where the president's head was at all. Instead we were told that the president was still complaining from the West Wing as his pro-Trump mob was breaching the Capitol, complaining about the vice president defying him by following through with that process to certify Joe Biden's win.

So that is where his head has been. Our understanding is that Pence and the president still have not spoken that's pretty remarkable and a sign really of where the president's head space is, because that's one the president used to talk to several times a day. They would at least meet several times a day and that's not what you're seeing happening. So it's just the president being further and further divorced from

reality and so, we are going to see him at some point this week he's going to Texas to visit the board of wall. He was going - they have these events planned to really try to burnish the president's legacy in his last few days in office.

And of course it's being disrupted by the fact that he's going to likely be impeached for a second time which is creating the sense of disbelief inside the West Wing, where aides were already starting to distance themselves from the president as he was continuing to push those election lies.

But after seeing the way he responded last Wednesday, it really did freak people in the West Wing out. Of course we've said time and time again well, they've maintained their relationships with him for this long. They've stuck around for this long, but I do think that was a breaking point for a lot of people.

So we're just seeing the president incredibly isolated and once we do hear from him I would not expect him to come out and offer some kind of full-throated apology for what happened last week and the role that he played in that.

KING: Whatever he says or whatever he does the stain here is indelible. Kaitlan Collins at the White House, Phil Mattingly up on the Hill and Ross Garber very much appreciate your important insights. We'll continue to stay on top of this.

And up next, we continue the conversation. Inside the House Democrats impeachment gamble, Conor Lamb represents a swing district in Pennsylvania but says this is no time for political caution and the congress must bar President Trump from ever seeking office again.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:15:00]

KING: Democrat Conor Lamb narrowly won re-election in November, getting 51 percent of the vote in Western Pennsylvania swing district that includes a healthy share of Trump voters. Yet Lamb, who did not support Nancy Pelosi for speaker back in 2019, is all in for the speaker's final day Trump impeachment push now.

In a long tweet threat Sunday, Congressman Lamb says it is imperative to hold the president accountable for the insurrection and to "Make sure this man can never again be Commander in Chief." Congressman Lamb joins us live.

Congressman, it's good to see you. This one look, you live in a swing district. I'm sure a lot of people when you go home are saying I supported the president. Maybe these are horrible but let's not impeach him.

I read through your tweet thread and we can put some of it on the screen here. Even if he isn't removed, impeachment can result and being banned from holding office ever again. In the middle of an ongoing criminal investigation make sure Trump doesn't obstructed on paraphrasing a bit there. Senate Republicans probably wouldn't vote to remove him but the tide is turning, so essentially use this to get momentum for those votes.

[12:20:00]

KING: Why is this so critical in a place where your consultants might say show some caution and you say no, we have to do this?

REP. CONOR LAMB (D-PA): Because this isn't about politics right now, it's about public safety. People really - I want them to understand that we are in the midst of not only an ongoing criminal investigation but an ongoing crime, an ongoing series of crimes. This is not over. There is a lot of discussion about future attacks and riots taking place.

But even just to focus on the president himself, if you look at the last four years when the president is in a moment of crisis he does two things, sometimes both. One is obstruct anyone who is trying to hold him accountable and the other is to do something else to distract from what he has just done.

And so the point that I'm trying to make to people is that at any moment it could be reported that he is obstructing this investigation by pardoning the people involved or aiding them or harboring them in some way. Or we could find out that he's doing something unrelated to distract from all the negative attention this is giving him something involving his military authority or God only knows what?

So the Senate may be saying right now we can't hold a trial, we're not coming back until January 19th those are the sort of objections everyone is raising. Our job is to make it possible for them to act on a moment's notice and they should be ready to act on a moment's notice.

There is no doubt that the president committed what is in the article of impeachment that's been written and therefore I think it's the duty of the House of Representatives to vote on that article impeach him and be ready to go to protect our communities from this president.

KING: Well, what happened at the Capitol obviously was horrific. And you're right, it was a crime and there's talk they're trying to repeat that crime as we get closer to the inauguration. And now there is a political calculation also for Democrats in the sense that, as you just lay out, Democrats believe this is necessary and this is vital.

There is the question Joe Biden will be president in a little more than a week, so if the Senate, if the House votes to impeach when do you send it over to the Senate? Standing hard, the majority leader moments ago said he thinks she do it right away, you just send it right over. Listen here though the number three Jim Clyburn over the weekend says maybe we wait a bit to let the Biden presidency get started. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D) MAJORITY WHIP: I do have concerns so does Speaker Pelosi. Let's give President-Elect Biden the 100 days he needs to get his agenda off and running and maybe we'll send the articles sometime after that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: What's more important to you, try to give Joe Biden some space or keep the urgency up and send them right over?

LAMB: I think what's important is that they're doing what they can to try to cover our bases and keep every option open. Again, this is a fluid situation and unfortunately we have limited information about the president's state of mind and what he's doing at any one moment?

So that's why I personally have the belief that the sooner we impeach the more flexibility we will have to deal with this. If we learn information that suggests an immediate removal from office would be necessary we'd have the opportunity to do that.

But if we don't have that information trying to focus the Senate on actually confirming some of Biden's at least core national security nominees may take precedence and that's a decision our leadership is going to have to make in real-time.

KING: You took your district back from the Republican in 2018 as I noted at the top. It's a tough district, it's a swing district leans Democratic but it's a tough district. I spoke yesterday to a newly elected Republican from South Carolina who just took back a district from a Democrat Nancy Mace asking her what about impeachment.

What about holding the Republicans in the house, who sided with the president in promoting his lies accountable? Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): We do a snap impeachment on Wednesday and a few hours after debate in voting I feel like its pouring gasoline on the fire prior. I'll be reaching out to colleagues on both sides of the aisle at what measures can we take to hold somebody spokes accountable? Because there were just - there were other folks within my own party even, that were stoking the flames of violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: What are you conversations with Republicans? Congresswoman Mace's point, I know you disagree. She says she just finds impeachment with the clock where it is to divisive. But she does believe the president should be held accountable and she believes some of the Republicans, House Republicans should be held accountable in some way the question is what way?

LAMB: Yes well, I think you have to separate between the president and House Republicans, even House Republicans who are on sort of the furthest edge of this insurrection. But I would say with respect to the president our set of options are not perfect, I admit that and many of the objections or questions that people are raising are good questions.

But impeachment is really the tool that we have as the House of Representatives and it's the tool that we can exercise most immediately for what I think is a present and looming threat? With respect to other House Republicans I think we need to remember that those of us who are trying to defend our system of government against what happened last Wednesday are doing so on the basis of the democratic process.

[12:25:00]

LAMB: And we were in the House Chamber arguing that the democratic process worked, that we counted people's votes and that you can trust that vote count and you can trust this democracy and it was that democratic process that sent these Republican members into office.

You know, I'm not questioning whether Mo Brooks or Marjorie Taylor Greene was validly elected by their citizens. I think they were. They themselves are questioning the same ballots that they were elected on including some of my colleagues in Pennsylvania.

And so, I wouldn't apply the same set of tools or sanctions to members of the House that I would to the president because I think the democratic process will deal with them perfectly fine. And I think what's so insidious about what so many of them are doing is that they are telling these people, these people at these events.

They are telling them that they have no other tool besides violence effectively because by telling them that the democratic process didn't work that there was fraud you cannot then in the same breath tell them oh, protest peacefully because these people no longer believe that means anything.

They really are angry and they really are looking for an outlet and normally we would say use the democratic process, use peaceful protests. But they don't believe in that because they've been told these lies, lies that just have no basis in reality anymore and you can't cover them with any sort of dry procedural legal argument.

And so these people need to be shown through the democratic process that America knows better and that's what we're going to work on now.

KING: If you lie to your supporters, you can't then try to wash your hands when they act on those lies of them. Congressman Lamb, grateful for your time today we'll keep in touch in the interesting accounts sequential day ahead. And up next for us, the Washington D.C. Mayor has a very clear warning about the public coming to this city for next week's inauguration.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)