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White House Counsel, Bill Barr Warned Trump Not to Self-Pardon; White House Re-Examining Pardons that Trump Brought Up on Giuliani, Trump's Family Members; Cumulus Media Warns Radio Hosts Not to Repeat Trump Lies on Election & Voter Fraud; Randall Lane, Chief Content Editor, Forbes Media & Editor, "Forbes" Magazine, Discusses His Warning to Companies Against Hiring Trump Staffers; Capitol Physician Warns Lawmakers May Have Been Exposed to COVID after Sheltering During Siege with Democratic Congresswoman Who Tested Positive. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired January 11, 2021 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:32:46]

BIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: We learned this hour the D.C. attorney general is now looking at potentially charging President Trump and others for inciting violence on the day of the capitol siege.

We have more breaking news now on the legal advice that the president is receiving.

Our senior White House correspondent, Pamela Brown, is with us now.

Pam, the White House counsel is telling the president not to pardon himself. Tell us about this.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. Several sources tell me and my colleague, Jamie Gangel, not only the White House, Pat Cipollone, but also recently retired attorney general, Bill Barr, had been repeatedly warning the president that they believe he should not self-pardon.

One source told me they did not think it was a good idea. Bill Barr made his views on this clear before he retired last month.

But both the White House counsel and then attorney general, Bill Barr, have been warning the president as he was bringing up whether or not he could and should pardon himself.

We know it's something he's been interested in, obsessed with, sources say, since the moment he took office. And he's brought it up again in recent weeks.

I'm told, though, it's unclear in terms of timing of that, whether it was after the -- what we saw the insurrection on January 6th at the capitol building.

That, of course, Brianna, brought renewed scrutiny on the president, and his role in potentially inciting the violence that we saw.

As you know, the D.C. U.S. attorney said nothing is off the table in terms of investigating. And if it means they have to scrutinize government officials, they will do so. So that is all happening.

We're told Bill Barr and Pat Cipollone both believe that the DOJ OLC memo on the presidential self-pardon should stand. And that says that a president should not be able to pardon himself. Both believe in that stance.

Also, we should note the presidential self-pardon power is untested. Even though among the top officials have disagreed with the president on this matter, they do not believe he should.

But the president still could move ahead and pardon himself, but it would almost certainly be met with lawsuits -- Brianna?

KEILAR: And how does what happened last Wednesday, Pamela, impact the pardons the president was already considering?

[14:35:03]

BROWN: I'm told White House officials are re-examining some of the pardons the president had brought up.

That includes his personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani. He also brought up his children, a potential pardon for his children, Don Jr, Ivanka, his son-in-law, Jared Kushner.

What I'm told is, particularly with Rudy Giuliani, there's concern now about pardoning him given how he could interfere in this investigation the D.C. attorney general has announced.

As you know, before the riots on the capitol building, Rudy Giuliani was up there talking about "trial by combat."

Given the circumstances and everything that is under investigation and being looked at, that is also something that they're taking into consideration as they figure out who else to pardon before President Trump's term ends. His term ends soon.

We do know, though, Brianna, that there will be more pardons before he leaves office but who that would be is uncertain at this point.

KEILAR: All right. We'll stay tuned.

Pamela Brown, thank you so much for that.

Removal by the 25th Amendment would, of course, end the president's ability to pardon himself or anyone else for that matter.

Joining me now is Michael Smerconish, host of CNN's "SMERCONISH" and host of the "Michael Smerconish Show" on Sirius XM. And he's also a lawyer.

Michael, thanks for being with us today. I wonder what you think about the advice from the White House counsel about a self-pardon by the president, don't do it, he says?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST: I'm not so sure that if he were to do it, that it would hold up.

And I also don't know, Brianna, if we would know for sure whether it would past constitutional or legal muster until and unless such time as President Trump would be former President Trump and would be indicted for some offense, and then it would be litigated.

It's all very speculative. It's unchartered water, yet again, for this president. And there's a divide among legal scholars.

Most think, I think it's fair to say, that it probably wouldn't uphold because it would be the president playing both judge and jury for himself, as opposed to being someone exhibiting mercy for a third party. That's really the nature of his pardon power.

KEILAR: You had a caller make the observation that Republicans should be the ones pushing for impeachment so that Trump can't mess up 2024 and the nomination fight there.

What was your thought about that?

SMERCONISH: So, you know, funny you bring that up. Because I put a lot of time into my radio program every day and try to figure out the direction of all conversation. That caller caught me flat-footed because I, frankly, hadn't thought of the argument.

The argument really is one for Mitch McConnell and other Republican leaders.

The argument is, hey, forget what the Democrats want to do. If you want to rid yourself of a shadow presidency, or a shadow candidacy for the next four years by Donald Trump, you should be the ones getting onboard, not only impeaching in the House, but having a trial in the Senate, and then ridding yourself of that possibility for the 2024 cycle.

It's a very provocative concept, isn't it?

KEILAR: It is incredibly provocative to say the least. I don't see it happening. I don't think you see it happening.

I wonder what you think about this Conservative radio hosts are being warned not to repeat the president's lies about the election and about voter fraud.

Reports say Cumulus Media, which have more than 400 radio stations across the country, now they say, quote:

"Will not tolerate any suggestion that the election has not ended. The election has been resolved and there are not alternate acceptable paths. If you transgress this policy, you can expect to separate from the company immediately." What do you think about that decision by the management at Cumulus?

SMERCONISH: First of all, I haven't seen editing like it and I've paid attention and been in the business 30 years.

It hearkens me back to the late '80s and the Fairness Doctrine. There really hasn't been this level of oversight and management of content by an employer since those days.

On the surface, I'm fine with it. On the surface, I think it means, if you lie, you're out.

So if you tell your audience right now there is still something in this campaign and it's not over, that's a lie and we're not going to permit it. I'm fine with that.

I get uncomfortable if, all of a sudden, it moves further into the opinion realm. I like the defamation standard, which is to say hyperbole is something that you can get away with.

But if you're saying that is capable of being proven true or false, you better make sure it's truthful. So I think it's a good wake-up call.

Gut reaction -- I haven't read the full memo, it's not available -- but I think I like it.

KEILAR: You think you like it. All right.

Michael, thanks so much for being with us. Good to see you Michael Smerconish.

SMERCONISH: Thanks, Brianna. Thanks.

KEILAR: Just in, House Democrats apparently deciding on the day on the unprecedented vote to impeach President Trump for a second time.

[14:40:06]

Let's get now to Manu Raju on this.

Manu, tell us about this.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, on a conference call just now, the House majority leader, Steny Hoyer, told colleagues the House will vote on Wednesday to impeach Donald Trump.

This would be the first time in American history an American president has been impeached twice by the House. This will be on the charge of inciting an insurrection.

Remember, he got impeached in 2019 for abuse of power and for obstructing Congress. This would be the third charge that would be approved by the House.

He just made that clear to his members they will vote starting on Wednesday on the article of impeachment.

Now, the leader of this effort, David Cicilline, told me earlier he expects a majority of the House to support this. He also expects some Republicans also to be onboard. That will be a question.

Also the question, Brianna: When will that Senate trial start? Will it start soon after Joe Biden becomes president?

Because as we know, there's just a few days left in Donald Trump's term but he's bound to get impeached for a second time -- Brianna?

KEILAR: Manu, thank you so much, live for us from Capitol Hill.

Next, I'll be speaking to the head of "Forbes" magazine, who is warning companies not to hire any of the Trump administration's spokespeople or the magazine will assume that everything the company says is a lie.

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[14:45:28]

KEILAR: After the capitol siege, "Forbes" magazine is taking an extraordinary step. In an editorial, the editor or the magazine is singling out Trump's press secretaries, including Kayleigh McEnany and Sarah Sanders, among others.

Saying, "Let it be known to the business world, hire any of Trump's former fabulous above and 'Forbes' will assume everything your company and firm talks about is a lie. We're going to scrutinize, double check, investigate with the same skepticism we would approach a Trump tweet."

And Randall Lane, the editor and chief content officer for "Forbes" magazine is with us now.

You wrote the editorial. So I wonder if you could tell us what brought you to the point of putting this out there?

RANDALL LANE, CHIEF CONTENT OFFICER, FORBES MEDIA & EDITOR, "FORBES" MAGAZINE: Well, again, I wrote it Wednesday night, because watching what happened at the capitol, what was happening was not based on emotion or bad actors. It was the foundation of law. The idea, and that was the consequence of lies.

So what this is, is a private sector, you know, a -- a statement that, you know, Patrick Moynihan famously said, we're all entitled to our own opinions. And we relish that because that's what makes America great, but we need to have the same facts.

So what we're going to do is show there's a price to be paid for -- you know, getting paid by the people to inform the people, when you've been lying to the people.

I'm not saying everything that the press secretaries of President Trump have said of lies. But let's be honest. It's been four years of so much disinformation and lies.

KEILAR: So you -- your list of the fellow fabulous here, includes -- this is the total list I believe -- Sean Spicer, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, Stephanie Grisham, Kayleigh McEnany and Kellyanne Conway. Is that a complete list?

LANE: Yes, the four press secretaries, plus Kellyanne Conway, who effectively in the first two years was the forward-facing official from Trump.

(CROSSTALK)

LANE: All people documented. Up is down, right is wrong.

Even from the very first day, when Sean Spicer goes out and says that it's the largest inauguration ever, which was a bald-faced lie, that anybody who has eyes could see.

Unfortunately, that set a tone for four years.

KEILAR: So, I mean, you felt the need to put their names out there. Did you expect -- was this under the expectation they would be able to land jobs somewhere? That seems to be kind of the goal, right, is that --

LANE: I hope they land jobs. This is not an attempt that they go -- they're all going to be fine.

What it was, was a message to corporate America that, as we have a national reset, we need to value facts.

It you're sitting there -- and so many press secretaries go to big corporate jobs. Ari Fleischer has a firm representing companies like IBM, Pfizer. Joe Lockhart went to Facebook and then he went to Amazon. So there's a tradition there.

But how are we supposed to take Facebook or Amazon seriously if Kayleigh McEnany comes in? We would still write about them. We would still treat them fairly.

But the issue is we would have to scrutinize because what they're doing is making a statement that we're OK with people who are paid by the people and yet would tell lies to people.

KEILAR: Yes, I mean, look, they have --

LANE: And they did.

KEILAR: They have major credibility problems that most press secretaries do not have coming out of the White House.

Do you feel there's a warm reception to this concept? Because I wonder just when it comes to corporate America, we're already seeing them pull advertise -- pulling, you know, political contributions, for example, when it comes to, at this point, the Republican Party.

I mean, is this something you feel is sort of going with where they're going?

LANE: You know it was -- it really was just a statement that this country, this constitutional democracy, stats are at the root of it.

What we have is a moment right now to come out of this better and stronger by reestablishing that the government needs to tell the truth.

And that people who -- again, we're only focusing on the press secretaries. We're not talking about junior staffers or every cabinet secretary.

We're talking about the people who were paid, again, by the taxpayers, to communicate to the people, and that can't be -- you know, there's always spin. And there's always, you know, lies of admission and things like that.

[14:49:59]

But when you're telling people what they see is not true and things that are false, that can't be the standard. We'll hold these press secretaries responsible.

Again, it doesn't mean these companies can't hire them. And we'll still cover them.

But it's no different than if the head of meat inspection, for four years in America, had bad meat's going out all the time, and then they go and get a job at Purdue.

You don't think the supermarket chains would look at every single package coming through closely? Because what does that say about the standards that Purdue has? Same thing.

KEILAR: Randall, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Randall Lane.

And we will be right back.

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[14:55:00]

KEILAR: Just in, Democratic Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman has announced that she has tested positive for coronavirus.

During the capitol siege, she was sheltered in place with colleagues, some of whom refused to wear masks. And the capitol physician warned this weekend that situation may have exposed many of them.

CNN's senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, is following this for us.

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DR. ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, Dr. Brian Monahan sent an e-mail Sunday to members of Congress. It was about an incident that occurred on January 6th, the day the capitol was breached.

There's video circulating of legislators in a secure room and some of them were refusing to wear masks.

So the e-mail from Dr. Monahan says, "Individuals may have been exposed to another occupant with coronavirus infection."

Dr. Monahan noted that some of the legislators were in that room for several hours. Others were there for briefer periods of time.

Dr. Monahan instructed the legislators to wear masks, to practice social distancing, and to get tested for COVID-19 -- Brianna?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: Elizabeth, thank you.

We're staying on the breaking news in Washington. House Democrats setting Wednesday as the date for an impeachment vote.

This, as the D.C. attorney general looks into possible criminal charges for President Trump.

Stay with us for CNN's live special coverage.

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