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Capitol Building Rioter Arrests Continue; Interview With Fmr. Rep. Charlie Dent (R-PA); Democrats Introduce Article of Impeachment Against Trump. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired January 11, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:20]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Here we go. You're watching CNN on this Monday afternoon. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me.

The big question today, will President Trump become the first president in United States history to be impeached twice? This after his incitement of last Wednesday's right at the Capitol that left five people dead, including a U.S. Capitol police officer.

Today, House Democrats formally introduced the article of impeachment against President Trump. And that single article of impeachment charges the president with incitement of insurrection.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says that, starting tomorrow, Vice President Mike Pence has 24 hours to proceed with the 25th Amendment to remove the president from office. If that does not happen, they will move forward with the formal vote to impeach this president.

Also breaking this afternoon, the D.C. attorney general says his office is looking at potentially charging President Trump and others for inciting violence in speeches before that riot.

We are also learning today that both White House counsel Pat Cipollone and former Attorney General Bill Barr have warned the president not to pardon himself. This is what we're getting here at CNN from multiple sources there. Barr sent the warning before he resigned last month.

And now, in the days leading up to Joe Biden's inauguration, authorities are bracing for the possibility of even more violence, as there are further threats proliferating online.

While all of this is happening, where is the president?

Let's begin this hour on Capitol Hill with Manu Raju there.

And, Manu, what's next?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we expect an impeachment vote. That will happen on Wednesday

Democrats are moving at lightning fast speed to impeach President Trump, as you said, the only time in American history a president will have been impeached twice. And all indications are that that will happen, that Democrats have the votes. Potentially some Republicans will join on.

This would be on a charge of inciting an insurrection. This comes after he was charged in 2019 for abuse of power for obstructing Congress as part of their investigation in the president's handling of relations with Ukraine.

This, of course, has to do with everything the president has done after the November elections to try to subvert the will of voters and then leading up to what happened, of course, on Wednesday in him urging that violent mob to come to Capitol Hill later that led to the death of several people, five people, including one U.S. Capitol Police officer, and terrorizing this building.

As a result, Democrats are moving ahead. Tomorrow, there will be a vote on whether to move forward with the 25th Amendment of the United States. In other words, they will create a system separate than what is already prescribed in the Constitution, essentially try to push out Donald Trump via the 25th Amendment.

This legislation, though, needs to pass both chambers and then get signed into law by this president. That's not going to happen. So they're going to move forward with an impeachment resolution that would occur on Wednesday.

That point, the House will vote on a majority vote to impeach the president. And then the question will be, when will the Senate act? The Senate is out of session until January 19. And the majority leader of the Senate, Mitch McConnell, has said that they probably are not going to take anything up before January 19.

So, Brooke, that may mean that the Senate trial could occur on January 20 or 21, after Donald Trump leaves office, when Joe Biden is president. There's a still debate about that among House Democrats, when to send those articles over to start that impeachment trial.

But that is where we're headed at the moment. Joe Biden's early days of his presidency could be distracted a bit as they focus on prosecuting the ex-President Donald Trump.

BALDWIN: Right, through a potential conviction, and then what penalties might the former president face? We will get into all of that in a second.

Manu, thank you very much for your reporting on the Hill.

To the White House we go now, to our chief White House correspondent there, Jim Acosta.

And, Jim, I also mentioned off the top about this warning from Pat Cipollone and Bill Barr to this president. JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

BALDWIN: What exactly did they say to him?

ACOSTA: Yes, I mean, we're hearing from our sources -- and our colleagues Pam Brown and Jamie Gangel have been working on this story, Brooke -- I should note -- that Pat Cipollone, the White House counsel, former Attorney General Bill Barr, they have both warned President Trump that he should not pardon himself.

And, obviously, this is something we have all been reporting on over the last several weeks, that the president is very tempted to pardon himself to try to prevent preemptively some kind of prosecution after he leaves office.

Obviously, we don't expect any prosecution to come toward the president before he leaves office. I suppose anything's possible, given that Donald Trump is in the White House. But, right now, he is being told he should be very careful of that.

We should note, the acting U.S. attorney here in Washington, D.C., was doing an interview with NPR over the weekend and did not rule out the possibility that elected officials could be drawn into the investigation into the Capitol siege last Wednesday.

[15:05:10]

That presumably would include the president, since he has been accused of inciting that right up on Capitol Hill.

BALDWIN: I also want to ask you about the ultimatum, essentially, that the House speaker has given the vice president that Manu was just reporting out, essentially that he has 24 hours to invoke the 25th Amendment.

ACOSTA: Right.

BALDWIN: And, if not, the House rolls on, on impeachment.

Do you have any reporting on just where the vice president's mind-set is right now on that?

ACOSTA: Yes, Brooke, we have been reporting since last weekend, that the vice president has not taken off the table this possibility of invoking the 25th Amendment.

I will tell you, talking to sources close to the vice president, they are concerned that an attempt to invoke the 25th Amendment might provoke the president, might cause him to take some other kind of rash action that would put the nation in jeopardy.

And so they are very cautious. They're going to be cautious about that. They're somewhat nervous about that. I guess that's a good way of putting it, in terms of using that very drastic action of invoking the 25th Amendment. But, to some extent, they're holding it over the president's head,

essentially sending him the message, listen, if you do any more insane things between now and January 20, severe consequences could come your way.

Now, it doesn't sound as though the vice president is going to do this before this imposed deadline or this threat of a deadline from the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi. So, that, I think, clears the runway for the House Democrats to begin these impeachment proceedings.

We saw the vice president going into the White House earlier this afternoon. No word yet whether or not he and the president have spoken. But, as you know, Brooke, we have been reporting this, people close to the vice president are outraged, outraged with President Trump for not checking in on Vice President Pence when he was up on Capitol Hill during that siege, along with the second lady, Karen Pence, and his daughter Charlotte.

There are people around the vice president who are just incensed that the president and the White House did not do more to check on the vice president's safety during all of that -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: His life was threatened.

ACOSTA: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: And he has heard nothing from this president. It is awful.

ACOSTA: It's mind-boggling. You bet.

BALDWIN: Jim Acosta, thank you so much.

With me to discuss all of this, former Republican Pennsylvania Congressman Charlie Dent and UNC Law Professor Michael Gerhardt, who was an impeachment witness both in 2019 and in 1998.

So, gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

And, Congressman Dent, I want to start with you on all things Mike Pence. I mean, the ball is in his court right now regarding the 25th Amendment. Obviously, he has his own political ambitions, 2024, and yet he has been thrown under the bus by Trump time and time again. He also, though, has been the most loyal Trump soldier.

Can you even envision him feeling so slighted here that he actually turns on President Trump?

FMR. REP. CHARLIE DENT (R-PA): Well, Brooke, certainly, Mike Pence has been quite the supplicant for Donald Trump.

And I think Mike Pence just learned the hard way that, with Donald Trump, loyalty is a one-way street, and Mike Pence was going the wrong way.

But, right now, if I were Mike Pence, I would summon Mitch McConnell and the Senate Republican leadership and the House Republican leadership and say, we're going to go meet with the president, and we're going to ask him to resign. And we're actually going to -- we're going to issue an ultimatum demanding that he resign, not to have a conversation, but to do that for the good of the country and for the good of the party.

Now, Donald Trump may not take well to that, but then say, well, then you're going to be impeached. And there will be a bipartisan impeachment vote. I mean, I think that's really where we are right now, because the president's conduct, it was just so reprehensible, siccing an angry mob on Congress, literally, Article 2 of the Constitution, the presidency, launching an attack on Article -- the first branch, Article 1.

I mean, it's just -- it's just so unfathomable. It's where we are.

BALDWIN: On so many levels, Charlie Dent, on so many levels.

Michael, to you. If they go along, if none of those things that Charlie Dent just outlined happens, and ultimately it's up to the House to potentially impeach the president, and let's -- we don't even know the timeline. We were listening to Manu on the hill.

So, let's say -- there are some who wonder, why even continue with impeachment even after Trump is out of office? Like, if he is convicted after he leaves, what's the point if he's not around? And what would the penalty be facing the then former President Trump?

MICHAEL GERHARDT, UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA: The Constitution recognizes two sanctions that may be applied through the impeachment process.

One is removal from office, which speaks for itself. The other is disqualification from serving again in any federal office. That disqualification sanction is unique in the Constitution. There'd been no other way, no other means by which President Trump could ever be barred from entering or serving again in any federal office, unless that sanction in the Constitution is used.

[15:10:12]

So, that's one of the real motivations for the House and eventually the Senate to consider not just impeaching the president, but convicting and ultimately disqualifying him from further service.

I'm just pointing out, we have two or three precedents in American history that support not just impeaching someone who's left office, but continuing with a Senate trial after that person has been impeached.

And in those Senate trials, the Senate actually has convicted at least once a former (AUDIO GAP) and disqualified that person from ever again serving in federal office. So, we have strong precedents to support continuing with the impeachment process after the president leaves.

The last thing I would say, I think the world of Charlie and agree (AUDIO GAP). I suspect he might agree that the odds of his plan going into effect are not good. And that tells us a lot about the president's state of mind, which, again, is why impeachment may be the best alternative Congress has got.

BALDWIN: Yes, the idea that they could just go in and say or demand his resignation, just going, if past is prologue, ain't happening.

Charlie Dent, it's not just about the president. There are now calls for Republican lawmakers Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, who disputed the election results in Congress, to be removed as well. Is there any scenario in your mind where some of these Republicans who continue to push on election fraud could be forced out of office?

DENT: Well, in terms of expulsion -- we discussed this on "NEW DAY" this morning -- I would be very leery to go down that path.

BALDWIN: Why?

DENT: I was chairing the House -- well, in the history of the U.S. House, I believe there are a total of five members of the House who were expelled, three for treason during the Civil War, and, two, Ozzie Myers and James Traficant for corruption.

And those two, by the way, were both convicted of felonies and then expelled. Now, I think it would be smarter if -- particularly for -- Mo Brooks, in the House, for example, made some very incendiary comments. I could see somebody bringing forward a motion of censure, which would -- is quite, quite serious.

And, again, having dealt with these very sensitive issues where I had to be involved with sanctioning members for misconduct, there are ways to get members to resign. Oftentimes, we don't like to set institutional precedents. So, sometimes, we would get members to resign, rather than forcing a prolonged congressional investigation to -- then ultimately with a sanction, because that causes a lot of reputational damage.

So, maybe there's some talk about forcing some resignations. But that's going to require some leadership from the top leaders on the Republican side in the Senate and the House, if they want to go down that road with a few members, again, a few.

I mean, look, there are 140 members in the House who voted to not certify the election. I mean, we're not -- I think it'd be ridiculous to go after all them.

BALDWIN: No, of course not.

(CROSSTALK)

DENT: ... no reason to.

So -- but there might be some, though, and then some of whom are going to be called up perhaps in these criminal investigations for their comments. And that could also play a role in determining (AUDIO GAP) would be meted out to some (AUDIO GAP)

BALDWIN: We shall see what the next week-and-a-half brings prior to this next inauguration next Wednesday.

Charlie Dent, Michael Gerhardt, thank you so, so much. We will continue this, I am sure.

Also this afternoon, new warnings of potential violence in the Capitol. The Washington, D.C., mayor says that she is seeing intelligence of plots to disrupt the inauguration -- how her city is preparing. We have that ahead.

Also, the D.C. attorney general is now looking at potentially charging President Trump and others for inciting the riots. Let's talk about that. What could they face?

And, as all of this unfolds, the coronavirus pandemic continues to rage, and the vaccine rollout is failing.

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:18:15]

BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.

The mayor of Washington, D.C., is urging people to avoid the nation's capital on Inauguration Day. Mayor Muriel Bowser says that she has already asked President Trump for more security and warned that there was already some intelligence, some chatter out there suggesting more violence may be coming.

Police departments from other cities and the Pentagon plan to send in additional reinforcements. The theme announced for the Biden inaugural is "America United."

Jessica Schneider is our CNN justice correspondent. She's in Washington with more on how law enforcement is preparing.

And, Jessica, there is also now this new acting U.S. Capitol Police chief. What is she saying?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, a new guard here, Brooke.

But she's not speaking out just yet. But you can be sure there's a lot going on behind the scenes, as Capitol Police no doubt are examining the massive breach of the Capitol last week, the fact that they might not have had enough manpower on duty, and the failure really of its officers to forcefully respond to those rioters who invaded the Capitol.

And even we saw attacked officers from the Capitol Police squad. So, Chief Steven Sund, he came under intense scrutiny for those failures. He has stepped down. And now Yogananda Pittman will take over as acting chief. Her bio, Brooke, says that she joined Capitol Police in 2001. She was one of the first African-American female supervisors to attain the rank of captain. She, of course, will have a massive challenge in front of her, as talk of further attacks persist online and as the Capitol complex right now is being fortified.

You can see those seven foot high non scalable fences that are out there. That's all ahead of the inauguration next week.

In the meantime, D.C.'s Mayor Muriel Bowser, she's asking the president to declare a pre-emergency disaster declaration. That's all to secure more funding for the next two weeks. And, Brooke, she's telling people to stay out of D.C., and she's asking the Department of the Interior to deny all permits for people who want to protest or demonstrate between now and January 24.

[15:20:13]

Of course, we know there were several permits issued last Wednesday, January 6, for gatherings. So, now the mayor wants to shut out all gatherings, shut them down before they even start, just as she's talking about how organized last week's riot really seemed to be.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MURIEL BOWSER (D), MAYOR OF WASHINGTON, D.C.: People coming to demonstrate peacefully are very different than the people we saw storm the Capitol the other day.

And I think that it will be shown that those people were organized, trained people who went into that building. So, what -- as laid out in our letter to the DHS director, this inaugural planning period has to be very different than all the others.

If I'm scared of anything, it's for our democracy, because we have very extreme factions in that country that are armed and dangerous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHNEIDER: So, all of these questions are swirling.

And, Brooke, really, law enforcement, they're working overtime. So they're tackling these new threats that we're seeing pop up, the chatter on social media. And investigators were also probing how coordinated these rioters really were, whether there was a more sophisticated planning apparatus in place, because we saw them descend on the scene in military gear, tactical gear.

We saw those plastic zip ties that law enforcement often uses.

BALDWIN: Yes.

SCHNEIDER: So, there is a big investigation here. It spans hundreds of officers, investigators, and now we're waiting more arrests as well -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Earpieces, climbing gear. They were -- they were prepared and they were trained.

SCHNEIDER: They were.

BALDWIN: Jessica Schneider, thank you.

Coming up next: A nationwide hunt is happening right now for those involved in the attack on the U.S. Capitol. What we're learning about some of these suspects.

And breaking news: lawmakers receiving violent threats over impeachment plans ahead of next week. We will talk to a congressman about what's being done to protect our nation's leaders.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:26:45]

BALDWIN: Got some more breaking news this afternoon.

In a last-minute move, just days before Joe Biden is sworn in as our next president, the U.S. secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, has announced that the U.S. is re-designating Cuba as a state sponsor of terrorism.

In a statement, this is what Secretary Pompeo wrote -- quote -- "With this action, we will once again hold Cuba's government accountable and send a clear message the Castro regime must end its support for international terrorism and subversion of U.S. justice."

Back in May of '15, the U.S. removed Cuba from its list of countries that sponsor terrorism, and then President Obama had announced that the two nations would restore diplomatic relations later that year.

Also, just in this afternoon, that the Washington, D.C., attorney general says that he is looking at potentially charging President Trump and others for inciting violence during Wednesday's speeches given at that huge rally right before the crowd descended upon our Capitol.

A growing number of private citizens who allegedly were in the mob inside the Capitol already faced federal charges and possible jail time. Among them were two men who were seen carrying those plastic -- you see it, the plastic restraints, the handcuffs.

One is Larry Rendall Brock, a retired Air Force Reserve officer. According to court documents, his ex-wife turned him in. And then another man seen carrying flex cuffs in the Senate chamber has also been identified. Here he is Eric Munchel. He is charged with unlawful entry and disorderly conduct.

And then let me show you one more picture. There is this guy. You see his sweatshirt? I'm not even going to say this. Sources tell CNN the rioter who stormed the Capitol Wednesday wearing this sweatshirt emblazoned with this just horrendous phrase, "Camp Auschwitz," has been identified as Robert Keith Packer of Virginia. It's not clear yet if he has been charged.

With me now, former federal and state prosecutor Elie Honig and national political reporter for "The New York Times" Astead Herndon.

Elie, let me start with you.

Welcome to you both.

On the D.C. A.G. news this afternoon, do you really think Trump could be charged here?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think he could be charged. And I think it's essential that prosecutors really dig in and take a look here.

Look, every single person who stepped foot inside the Capitol on January 6 can be charged with a federal crime, on the low end, trespass, all the way up to, for some, murder. That's good. All of those people need to be identified, arrested, prosecuted. The authorities seem to be off to a good start with that.

But it's not enough. And I want to say this to the leaders of the Justice Department now and starting next week under the Biden administration. You're not doing your job if you're just taking the easy targets.

The way I was trained as a prosecutor was, you look up the chain. Who are the real powers? Who really spurred on this criminal activity? And so I think it's essential that they take a real look at everyone, up to and including the president of the United States.

It might ruffle feathers. It might be seen as divisive, but prosecutors have a job to do. And it's not to play nice. It's to pursue justice, no matter what.

BALDWIN: I appreciate you saying that.

I have got one more for you, and then, Astead, I'm coming to you, just on the news -- you and I have talked a number of times about will he, won't he, being the president, try to pardon himself?

So, now we have heard that -- the Pat Cipollone and Bill Barr apparently had warned the president not to try to pardon himself. Your reaction to that?

HONIG: It's crazy that that should even be legal advice that needs to be given to the president.

Look, it's good legal advice.