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Pence On Notice To Remove Trump From Office; Widespread Investigations After Capitol Hill Riots; Security For Inauguration To Scale Up Dramatically; Big Tech Blocks Trump; U.S. House To Urge Pence to Take Steps to Remove Trump; India to Start Vaccine Drive January 16; Questions about Vaccine Hoarding and Fair Access; Search and Rescue Underway for Indonesia Crash Victims. Aired 1-2a ET

Aired January 11, 2021 - 01:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[01:00:00]

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MICHAEL HOLMES, ANCHOR, CNN NEWSROOM: With just a few days left in office, House Democrats pushing to get President Trump out now. Saying if Mike Pence won't do it, they'll push to impeach.

Feds now investigating if rioters at the U.S. capital wanted to take hostages, and more charges expected as more arrests are made.

Plus richer countries hoarding the coronavirus vaccine. The danger of a "my country first" approach.

And a warm welcome to our viewers all around the world, this is CNN NEWSROOM. Appreciate your company.

Now with last week's riot at the U.S. capital still reverberating around the world, lawmakers are just hours away from taking action. The U.S. House expected to vote to urge Vice President Mike Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment to remove the president from office.

Now if Pence doesn't act within 24 hours, Speaker Nancy Pelosi says the house will move forward with an unprecedented second impeachment.

A new poll meanwhile shows the majority of Americans believe President Trump should be removed from office before his term ends.

And images of some of the rioters holding restraining devices and weapons has led to a federal investigation into whether they planned to take lawmakers hostage.

There is certainly no question destruction and violence was on their minds.

The disturbing video you're about to see shows rioters relentlessly beating a police officer they had dragged down the steps of the capital.

Now this happened minutes after President Trump told the rioters to go home and that he loved them and that they were special.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Meanwhile, what you're watching there is a somber procession as police officers lined the streets for a procession honoring the Capitol police officer, Brian Sicknick.

Now the flag is flying at half staff in the White House now in honor of Sicknick, and a fellow officer, Howard Liebengood. Both men were on duty during the riot.

CNN's Ryan Nobles now with more on what's ahead in the U.S. House.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is ready to move forward with articles of impeachment against President Trump if Vice President Mike Pence doesn't begin the process of invoking the 25th Amendment.

In a letter to her colleagues on Sunday night Pelosi said that she is going to introduce a resolution on Monday morning that will essentially put Mike Pence on the clock, give him 24 hours to decide whether or not he is going to take the step of moving forward on the 25th Amendment then the house will begin impeachment procedures. That could happen as early as Wednesday.

And there are certainly enough votes for Pelosi to get the impeachment passed here in the House, the question is what's happens when it gets to the Senate?

There doesn't seem to be an appetite by Senate Majority leader Mitch McConnell to begin a trial and convict President Trump especially before he leaves office now in less than 10 days.

So the question is what does Pelosi do after those articles of impeachment are passed? She could send it over to McConnell for him to do nothing with them or she can actually[M1] hold on to them and wait until President Trump is out of the office and when the Democrats are in control of the Senate and begin the trial then.

There are still some benefits for the House Democrats to move forward with the impeachment, even after President Trump is out of office. There are long-term consequences that President Trump could be in store for if he is ultimately convicted of those impeachment proceedings.

So still a lot we don't know.

[01:05:00]

The only thing we know for sure is that Speaker Pelosi is ready to take that first step of doing something to hold President Trump accountable for his role in those riots that took place here last Wednesday.

NOBLES (On Camera): Ryan Nobles, CNN, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Now in an interview with CBS, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi explained the reasoning for impeachment, even though President Trump is going to leave office in just 10 days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESLIE STAHL, ANCHOR, CBS 60 MINUTES: What if he pardons himself?

NANCY PELOSI, U.S. HOUSE SPEAKER: What if he pardons these people who are terrorists on the Capitol? What if he does that?

STAHL: Or pardons himself?

PELOSI: He can only pardon himself from federal offenses, he cannot pardon himself from state offenses and that's where he's being investigated in the state of New York.

STAHL: There is a possibility that after all of this, there is no punishment, no consequence and he could run again for president.

PELOSI: And that is one of the motivations that people have for advocating for impeachment.

STAHL: Won't that take more than the 10 days, does it actually make sense?

PELOSI: Well, I like the 25th Amendment because it gets rid of him, he's out of office. But there is strong support in the Congress for impeaching the president a second time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Now Speaker Pelosi is not alone of course in expressing concern about President Trump remaining in office, after last week's violence, 10 days or no 10 days.

There are growing calls among Democrats for impeachment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: There's no doubt about it, he should be impeached.

SENATOR CHRIS COONS, (D-DEL.) President Trump by his actions the last two months since the election has lost the right to be president.

REP. ALEXANDRA OCASIO-CORTEZ, (D-N.Y): Well, I absolutely believe that impeachment should be scheduled.

REP. MONDAIRE JONES, (D-N.Y): This president must be impeached and removed and anything less than that is an application of congress's constitutional responsibility.

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES, (D-N.Y.): Donald Trump represents a clear and present danger to the health and safety of the American people, as well as our democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Massachusetts congressman, Democrat Seth Moulton, wrote a CNN op-ed piece while sheltering in place in the U.S. capital on Wednesday.

He says that the present has violated his oath of office.

Listen to how he says one Republican reacted to Wednesday's insurrection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. SETH MOULTON, (D-MASS.): Standing in that room, the first person who came up to me and said this man, the commander in chief, needs to be relieved of duty was a Republican.

Actually, such a conservative Republican he was one of the misbegotten ones who was voting against certifying the electoral college.

But the severity of what is going on here is just unprecedented in American history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Republicans are mixed on what should happen next for the president, some calling for resignation, some say they would consider articles of impeachment. Others content to just let the clock run out on the short time left in this presidency.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. PAT TOOMEY, (R-PA.): I think the president has disqualified himself from ever certainly serving in office again. I don't think he is electable in any way and I don't think he's going to be exercising anything like the kind of influence that he has had over the Republican Party going forward.

SENATOR ROY BLUNT (R-MISS.): The president should be very careful over the next 10 days that his behavior is what you would expect from the leader of the greatest part of the world.

Now my personal view is that the president touched the hot stove on Wednesday, and is unlikely to touch it again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Jessica Levinson is a law professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles. She joins me now. Good to see you, Professor.

So advisors recommending other solutions to punish Donald Trump without sort of hijacking the first hundred days of Biden's presidency.

It's perhaps understandable but what are the moral risks of waiting? JESSICA LEVINSON, PROFESSOR OF LAW & GOVERNANCE, LOYOLA LAW SCHOOL,

LOS ANGELES: Well, the moral risks are that we say it's OK.

If we have constitutional provisions, not just one, not just two, but possibly even three that say that if you engage in this type of behavior then you can be removed, then those constitutional provisions need to mean something.

So the risk is that we essentially in silence, that silence becomes acceptance. And we say that's OK. I don't think that's -- we're talking about the kind of society that we want to design and live in.

HOLMES: Yes. If you don't impeach, as you say, there is the risk of looking like you're letting the presidents actions slide.

But is there -- this is your field, is there a legal risk of the argument already being made that you can't impeach a former president, and it might end up going nowhere? In terms of when he is out of office.

LEVINSON: You've heard me say this before but this is something we haven't tested. We have only luckily impeached presidents a handful of times and we've never impeached one in a lame duck session, and we've never had a situation where the trial would have to occur after the presidency is over.

[01:10:00}

Having said that, I think the constitution absolutely does allow for it. And the benefit here would be that, as part of a potential conviction, you could say to the president you can never run for office again.

That would eliminate his ability to tell his supporters he's running for office and it would eliminate his ability to use the campaign finance system to raise money for his benefit. So there are some real benefits.

And again, I think that the constitution does allow for it.

HOLMES: And to put your political hat back on. It's extraordinary, is not, that we haven't seen a single White House news conference after an insurrection or attempted insurrection; no homeland security briefing, no FBI, DOJ, cabinet, department heads, no one, nothing.

Where is the government on what happened and what could be yet to happen?

LEVINSON: It's extraordinary. This is not opacity, this is darkness. The lack of information that we have about something that happened, again, remember in the people's house. The people's house was under attack.

And remember what happened to our representatives. Reports of representatives cowering in place, praying, using chairs to protect themselves. This is not something that happened in a private corporation.

And again, all incited by the president of the United States.

We don't know -- and the information was not out there for a long time about what happened to the people who passed away.

Think about -- this is a terrible example, but a police shooting where we have information very, very quickly. We haven't had this kind of reporting and I think a lot of people now are worried about what's going to happen in the next few days.

And I know that there has been some chatter about how to appropriately protect the inauguration.

HOLMES: Donald Trump, he will continue to hold sway over his hard- core base. But do you think he can possibly still have the hold over the broader Republican Party as his term comes to an end this way?

LEVINSON: This is the question going forward. About 74 million people voted for him, probably about 35- to 40- really believe all of the lies, the conspiracy theories, the falsehoods.

The question is what happens in the next month, year, two years, what happens to the Republican Party?

Do they say now that he's out of office, I no longer am so worried about being primaried, I'm no longer so worried about a mean tweet that I'm going to go back to telling the American people what is actual reality, what is actually the law.

There's a real question here about whether or not the Republican Party has so much institutional weakness that Donald Trump can again capture that. I don't know the answer to that, I wish I did.

I suspect that for a lot of people who tolerated him, this was the last straw.

HOLMES: Always great to talk to you, Jessica. Thanks so much. Jessica Levinson in Los Angeles.

LEVINSON: Thank you.

HOLMES: Democratic lawmakers are concerned with how impeaching the president for a second time might affect President Elect Biden's early days in office. A top House Democrat, James Clyburn suggests the house votes on

impeachment, but then holds off sending the articles over to the senate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMES CLYBURN, (D-S.C.): Let's gives President Elect Biden the 100 days he needs to get his agenda off and running. And maybe we'll send the articles sometime after that.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HOLMES: Officials say security at the U.S. capital will be enhanced when Biden is inaugurated next week.

You se there a tall so-called non-scalable fence has already been installed around the building, and several states have pledged National Guard troops to help secure the event.

The Pentagon also deciding whether to increase the number of guardsmen to as many as 13,000.

Quick break now.

When we come back, some of the rioters from the U.S. Capitol attack are already facing charges, and authorities say many more arrests will follow. We'll have the latest on the investigation for you.

Also, an incoming senator reacts to the unrest with a passionate speech.

SEN. ELECT RAPHAEL WARNOCK, (D-GA.): You cut the head off of a snake. It shakes and moves violently, not because it is living but because it is dying.

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[01:15:00]

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HOLMES: Welcome back.

U.S. authorities are still trying to identify many of the rioters involved in last week's attack on the U.S. capital.

CNN's Jessica Schneider now with the latest on the investigation and what police are doing to prevent more violence.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: There is a lot of concern as we move into a new week and closer to the inauguration in the wake of last week's attack on the U.S. capital.

The capital, now surrounded by a seven-foot non-scalable fence and hundreds of National Guard members, they will be sent in for the inauguration next Wednesday.

That includes 1,000 members from New York, 6,200 from across the country. And so far, nearly two dozen people have been charged federally for their involvement in the violent mob that stormed the capital.

That includes a man who was found with 11 homemade bombs in his truck parked near the Capitol plus a handgun, assault rifle and ammunition. And prosecutors say that man actually had two hand guns on him when police finally found him. Then there was another man charged with allegedly sending text

messages threatening injury to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. When he was found, he had firearms including a assault rifle and hundreds of rounds of ammunition that was in a truck that he had parked outside of a Holiday Inn hotel outside of Washington.

But this is likely just the beginning of the charges. The acting U.S. attorney in D.C. says hundreds of people were under arrest as they continue the investigation that encompasses hundreds of prosecutors and FBI agents working from three command centers 24/7.

And finally, there is some growing concern for the safety of members of congress, many of whom we have seen in videos yelled at, surrounded in airports as they travel to and from Washington.

[01:20:00]

Well, this weekend we learned that all members will be able to get increased security when they travel through airports.

U.S. Capitol police are collaborating with other law enforcement agencies to make sure those protections happen to keep those members of congress safe.

Jessica Schneider, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: President Trump vowing to fight big tech during his final days in office after getting booted from Twitter.

And in just a few hours, amazon will remove Parler from its Cloud hosting service, effectively booting it off the public internet until it can find a new web hosting provider.

Now this comes after Apple and Google banned the alternative social network from their platforms. Apple actually gave Parler 24 hours to remove hateful and violent comments before saying that they didn't do it and nixing the app.

Here to discuss further is John Defterios from Dubai. Good to see you, John.

There does seem to be a pretty united position by the tech giants against Parler. Why are they moving so swiftly?

JOHN DEFTERIOS, CNN EMERGING MARKETS EDITOR: Well, there's a pretty widely held view, Michael, for nearly four years that the Silicon Valley giants were turning a blind eye to Donald Trump and his base partially because they had so much traffic but obviously you don't want to go against the U.S. president.

I think that has changed completely after what we saw last week on Capitol Hill.

We see Apple and Google moving to take him down for mobile apps and that's a killer for Parler because it was the number one free app according to Apple prior to the move by these tech companies.

And then you have Amazon web services, as you suggest, taking it down as the host. It did send a letter to Parler telling them to change their ways, and they cited nearly 100 examples, 98 examples, of them inciting violence.

Now from Parler's standpoint, they said this is politically motivated against conservatives and they said they'll probably be down for the better part of a week because they'll have to find a new web host going forward. But this is an incredible division as you can see politically because

of the far right wanting to use this in the name of free speech.

And as you remember here, we had the Republican-controlled senate bringing the giants, particularly Facebook and Twitter, to Capitol Hill saying they were politically motivated in their actions against the president particularly on Twitter in trying to block things or label things that he was posting.

And there's another subtle message here, Michael, which I think we have to underscore.

The tech giants were given free rein. They have to be very careful here to strike the balance of protecting free speech but also being proactive because they're so large.

And under a Biden Administration they may come in and say you're just too big, we have to start to break you up unless you respond to the challenges we see on social media.

They're not treated as publishers right now. And obviously, for legal reasons they don't want to be seen as media giants and having to weigh everything that gets posted worldwide.

HOLMES: Yes, exactly. President Trump has spent his life tweeting on his name, putting it on buildings that he has nothing to do with other than his name.

And we've seen now the PGA has decided to pull out of a Trump golf course next year for one of the world's most prestigious tournaments.

Is the brand potentially on the nose going forward?

DEFTERIOS: Yes. One would say that we are starting to see the Trump brand become toxic. And I like the way you put it here because his whole organization, the Trump Organization, is built on that brand whether it's on buildings, for hotels and apartments and golf courses. And it was a busy weekend.

We talked about Silicon Valley but here with the PGA suggesting that the Trump brand is actually detrimental to the brand of Trump, not hosting PGA tournaments but to PGA Americas overall.

Now we know how litigious that the Trump Organization can be and they are saying that the PGA is breaking a binding contract but according to the PGA board which made this decision, they're taking the option that is built into the contract to get out.

And this is not hosting for 2021. They're looking all the way to 2022, one of the four major tournaments being hosted in the United States.

So quite a strong message to the Trump Organization. And you hear people talking now in the real estate sector that Trump is not welcome into New York.

It's going to be a big challenge for Donald Trump and the organization to try to rebuild the brand, if that's possible after what we saw not only over the last four years but because of what transpired on Capitol Hill. Michael.

HOLMES: Yes. Yes, turning toxic as you say. John Defterios, appreciate it. Good to see you there in Abu Dhabi. Thanks.

DEFTERIOS: Thanks.

HOLMES: Well, there are only days left in Donald Trump's presidency as we've been saying but U.S. lawmakers are taking action to oust him from office now as we've been reporting.

Where things stand. We'll have the latest when we come back.

[01:25:00]

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HOLMES: Welcome back to CNN NEWSROOM, everyone. I'm Michael Holmes, appreciate your company.

U.S. lawmakers are just hours away from taking action against President Trump for inciting his supporters to riot at the Capitol last week.

House Democrats are expected to put Vice President Mike Pence on notice. If he doesn't take steps to remove the president from office, they will vote to impeach.

Here's Jeremy Diamond with the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi indicates that the house will move this week to impeach President Trump, the president faces the increasing possibility that he will become the first president in American history to be impeached twice by the House of Representatives.

Now a trial in the Senate is a whole other matter and it's very unlikely that that will happen before president elect Joe Biden is inaugurated on January 20th.

But the president is facing not only this prospect of impeachment, he's also facing calls for his resignation, including from several key Republican senators.

And he's also facing these questions of the 25th Amendment with some calling for the president to be stripped of his presidential powers through that amendment.

Now President Trump making very clear according to our sources that he has no intention of resigning despite his role in inciting that mob on Capitol Hill last week.

But there is this question of the 25th Amendment and the move by the house speaker, Nancy Pelosi, will put a lot more pressure on vice president Mike Pence to make clear what his position is on this 25th Amendment.

[01:29:51]

So far, we've heard just from sources close to the vice president that first of all, it's highly unlikely that he will actually invoke the 25th Amendment.

And second of all, that he's still not taking it completely off the table because he wants to preserve it as an option, should President Trump's behavior become more unstable.

But it is remarkable that despite four years of unfailing loyalty to President Trump, we've yet to hear Mike Pence say himself or through an on the record statement from his office that he does not support invoking the 25th Amendment to strip President Trump of his presidential powers.

That, in and of itself is remarkable. And this move by the House Speaker could increase the pressure on Mike Pence to actually make his position much more clear.

Now on Sunday, President Trump also finally moved to lower the flag on top of the White House and to order flags across the country lowered to half staff in honor of Capitol Hill police officer Brian Sicknick, who was killed in the line of duty during that siege on Capitol Hill.

Remarkable though, that it took President Trump two days longer than it took the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to order that move, and only after a lot of withering criticism.

Jeremy Diamond, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Now in a recorded message posted to social media, former California governor and actor, Arnold Schwarzenegger rebuked President Trump. He also had harsh words for those politicians, who have supported the president and his constant barrage of baseless claims.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, FORMER CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR: President Trump is a failed leader. He will go down in history has the worst president ever. The good thing is that he soon will be has irrelevant as an old tweet.

But what do we to make of those elected officials who have enabled his lies and his treachery? I will remind them of whatever Roosevelt said, "Patriotism means to stand by the country, it does not mean to stand by the president".

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Some lawmakers are asking Republican Senators Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley to resign after they led the charge in the Senate to block Biden's Electoral College certification.

Democratic Senator Tina Smith of Minnesota tweeted that Cruz and Hawley chose to undermine American democracy and quote "Feed the big lie that the election was stolen." That Republican senator says American voters will decide their fate.

The U.S. plans to designate Yemen's Houthi rebels as a foreign terrorist group. The Secretary of State Mike Pompeo says the move will provide additional tools to confront Iran-backed militia.

But diplomats and aid groups fear the designation instead could damage the U.N.'s work on peace talks in Yemen and hinder the crucial delivery of humanitarian aid. It could also pose challenges of course for incoming U.S. President Joe Biden to create a Yemen policy.

Quick break. When we come back on CNN NEWSROOM India plans to counter its surging coronavirus numbers with a massive vaccine drive. We'll talk about that next live from India.

Also vaccines are offering hope against the coronavirus but only to those who are able to get their hands on them. More on the concerns over vaccine hoarding by rich nations when we come back.

[01:33:31]

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HOLMES: The coronavirus has now infected more than 90 million people around the world and nearly two million people have died. That's according to Johns Hopkins University. And those are just the cases we know of, of course.

The U.S. the worst off by far as we know. The country adding more than two million new cases in the first 10 days of the year. The death rate is skyrocketing at the moment. If it continues, January will be the deadliest pandemic month in the U.S.

And California right now the U.S. epicenter. The state adding nearly 50,000 new cases on Sunday. More than 22,000 coronavirus patients are in California hospitals right now.

And turning our attention to India, health officials have announced the country is starting its coronavirus vaccine drive on Saturday, prioritizing health care workers and the elderly and expecting to reach some 300 million people.

Vedika Sud is in New Delhi for us. Tell us about that. It's going to be one of the biggest vaccine drives in the world. How is it going to work? What about distribution?

VEDIKA SUD, CNN REPORTER: Good to be with you, Michael.

Absolutely. And five days from now India will witness history when the first vaccine is administered. We do know that there are about 5,000 vaccine centers being set up across India as I speak.

Speaking of Delhi, there are about 89 vaccination centers, about half a million people have been trained for this day Michael, across India.

Now in the first phase as we have been telling you, there will be 300 million people. That in itself is a staggering number isn't it when compared to other countries.

That's the first phase we're looking at out of which 30 million will be frontline health care workers and 270 million will be those who are above the age of 50 and under the age of 50 with comorbidities.

Now, just to remind you the two vaccines that have got emergency use authorization from the Drug Control Authority here in India. The first is the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine. And the other is an indigenous vaccine known as -- produced by this company called Bharat Biotech.

Now still, there is controversy over the second vaccine that I have been talking to you about which is the Bharat Biotech vaccine because still we don't have enough data from the third phase of trials, as well as any efficacy data that has been made public yet.

You have the opposition and medical experts questioning the Drug Control Authority, asking them how can the Bharat Biotech company be rolling out its vaccine when there isn't enough data.

But the company has come out and assured people that it is absolutely safe and the data will be coming out soon.

So this is going to be a huge challenge really Michael. Come Saturday, we're going to see the rollout take place but the challenge remains for India. We're talking about the second most populated country across the world -- 1.36 billion people.

These will be testing times as well. The first phase really rolls out because there's so many more to be inoculated in the coming future, Michael.

HOLMES: All right. Thank you, Vedika. Vedika Sud there in New Delhi for us.

SUD: Thank you.

HOLMES: Appreciate that.

Now with countries like the U.S., the U.K. and India, all starting vaccine campaigns there are lots of questions about fair access.

[01:39:54]

HOLMES: People in developing nations simply might not be able to get vaccines as richer countries take what they need first. In some cases more than what they need.

According to an international vaccine watchdog group, in 67 poor nations just one in 10 people can hope to receive a vaccine by the end of next year. Countries representing just 14 percent of the world's population, own more than half of the most promising vaccines. In fact Canada, purchased enough doses to immunize citizens five times over.

Tom Bollyky is the director of global health of the Council on Foreign Relations. He joins me now from Washington. And thanks so much doing so.

I wanted to start with something you wrote in ForeignAffairs.com and I'll just quote from it. "Vaccine nationalism or a "my country first" approach to allocation will have profound, far-reaching consequences."

Tell us about those consequences?

TOM BOLLYKY, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: So those consequences start with prolonging the pandemic. Taking an approach where you treat this virus as if it knew national borders is the wrong way to go. Allowing the virus to circulate unabated nations (INAUDIBLE) had or have larger health consequences, larger economic consequences. But that ultimately will make even nations with vaccines less safe because we won't be able to vaccinate our population -- full populations for a period of time.

As we've seen in recent weeks, there have been mutations. So -- also allowing it to spread elsewhere, increases the risk of that.

But the last point that I think is really important for viewers to understand, is if we cannot cooperate on equitably distributing a vaccine in the midst of a deadly pandemic, when it is in all of our interest to cooperate, what global challenge will we be able to cooperate on?

So it undermines our prospects of working together as nations to prevent the next pandemic or other challenges like climate change.

HOLMES: And that is a really good point, probably the biggest one. I mean CNN has reported that wealthy countries have bought enough vaccine doses to immunize their populations three times over.

What can developing nations actually do as they suffer through the pandemic other than raise their hands and hope somebody shows compassion?

BOLLYKY: So the options, I'm sorry to say are limited. Vaccines are fundamentally different than small molecule drugs like those HIV drugs that some viewers may remember. Most countries cannot make them. And it will take time to expand the manufacturing capacity necessary to do so. So the options to poor nations without vaccines really are twofold. One is to increase the pressure as you suggested, raise your hands and increase the pressure on nations to participate in the multilateral initiative, try to get the resources that that multilateral initiative called COVAX needs to succeed.

The second is they can turn to the sources of vaccines that are available to them which is likely in this case to be the vaccines from China and Russia. Which, you know, provided they are independently verified, they go through the proper regulatory channels, that would be great.

But right now, none of those vaccines have done so. So it's worrisome.

HOLMES: Yes. And the other sort of, you know, reality of course, is pharmaceutical companies and charities. Do you expect pharmaceutical companies to perhaps put profit aside? Or put it first when it comes to nations which, you know, just can't afford the high cost of vaccine purchase or distribution? Should they be --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLYKY: Absolutely, I think the pharmaceutical companies actually want to do the right thing here. The reason is they don't want a repeat of that HIV scenario that I alluded to before.

20 years ago the pharmaceutical companies found themselves in the wrong side of a lawsuit with the South African government over access to medicines called 39 pharmaceutical companies v Nelson Mandela. They do not one another scenario like that.

The challenge that has happened is that most of their stocks have been bought up. And vaccine manufacturing capacity is really scarce. It is going to take work to try to expand those options. So even Pfizer has offered to sell 50 million doses to African nations of its vaccine. But because of the cold chain requirements, it needs to be kept really at a low temperature to distribute, they've been hesitant to do so.

There is a real difficulty getting the supplies to where they need to go soonest.

[01:40:02]

HOLMES: Yes. Yes. One hopes that the "me first" attitude doesn't prevail because billions of people will suffer otherwise.

Tom Bollyky, an important issue. Thanks so much for speaking with us.

BOLLYKY: My great pleasure. Thanks for having me.

HOLMES: We'll take a quick break.

When we come back on CNN NEWSROOM, divers right now are conducting search and rescue operations after Saturday's plane crash in Indonesia. We will have a live report after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Welcome back.

Search and rescue operations are ongoing after Saturday's plane crash in Indonesia. Navy divers and search boats working nonstop until all the wreckage and victims have been found.

50 passengers and 12 crew members were on board when the Sriwijaya Air flight went missing. Divers have also found the two data recorders among the wreckage, which is good news.

CNN's Selina Wang is following these developments for us live from Tokyo.

Just bring us up to date on what we know.

[01:49:55]

SELINA WANG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Michael, the family members of the people on board that plane are still waiting in anguish.

The relatives have shared 40 DNA samples with authorities to help identify the victims. So far 16 bags containing human remains have been retrieved.

And we are learning more and more about the 62 people that were on this plane. There were seven children. There was a family of five. The mother was four months pregnant. She was sitting next to her two-year- old daughter and her nephew. She took this selfie right before the plane took off.

Also on board and feared dead is a couple. They were flying to attend a family funeral. We spoke to the brother of the wife and this is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YUDIANSYAH YUNUS, BROTHER OF MISSING PASSENGER (through translator): There were only three of us. Our father has passed away. Our mother has passed away. Now their children are orphans whom I have to take care of.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WANG: Divers are continuing to search up the crash site. It's about 20 miles northwest of Jakarta. And in addition to these human remains they found personal belongings, children's clothing, a wrecked plane engine as well as parts and pieces of the plane.

According to global flight tracker Flight Radar 24, just four minutes after takeoff the plane dropped 10,000 feet in less than a minute.

Fishermen who were nearby the wreckage told CNN that it sounded like an explosion, like quote, "a bomb in the water".

Rescuers have detected where the flight locator black box is located and once they retrieve that it could provide critical information about how this plane crashed.

Unfortunately, Indonesia has a history of plane accidents partly because of a poor safety record in the industry, the aviation's fast growth. But just to be clear, Michael, this plane was not the model of the Boeing 730 Max that led to the two fatal crashes, one in 2018 and another several months later, Michael.

HOLMES: All right. Thanks, Selina. Selina Wang in Tokyo for us. Appreciate it.

And I am joined now by Jeffrey Thomas, editor in chief at AirlineRatings.com. He joins us now from Perth, Australia.

Good to see you again Jeff.

JEFF THOMAS, EDITOR IN CHIEF, AIRLINERATINGS.COM: Hello Michael.

HOLMES: Officials are saying, you know, the plane didn't explode in the air. It was intact when it hit in the ocean. The drop in altitude was dramatic and rapid. What do you take from what we know?

THOMAS: Look, indeed the plane did hit the water intact. But that doesn't rule out the fact -- it doesn't rule out the possibility, I should say, that there wasn't an explosion on board, that was the precursor for what was going to happen.

There has been a dramatic loss of control. There was no communication at all from the (INAUDIBLE) to actually see. The trajectory of the airplane as we've learned from Flight Radar 24, a dramatic plunge into the sea.

When the airplane impacted the ocean, it was traveling at about 750 miles an hour, near supersonic speed. that would've caused that two- meter wave to hit the fishermen.

So whatever happened, it was very dramatic and catastrophic. Now whether it was a small explosion on board, whether there was a dramatic loss of control -- it's just way too early to tell.

But certainly, whatever happened was very sudden. And it only took a minute or two.

HOLMES: Yes. And Selina touched on this earlier. And I wanted to ask you too. Obviously we don't have a cause yet but, you know, how concerned would Boeing be that it is in the headlines again?

THOMAS: Look, indeed it is not -- Boeing has had a shocking couple of years because of the two Max tragedies. And certainly, they wouldn't be very happy because obviously not very happy with losing an airplane, a Boeing airplane.

But the 737, there are virtually thousands and thousands of them flying all over the world, different models. This was what we call the classic model. The next model on is the new generation, which is the one that's extensively used across the United States and across the world.

The Max is the latest model. So this one is two generations away from the Max. It has a very, very good safety record. It's a great airplane. But you know, there are, as I said, thousands of these planes flying today. And each of these aircraft, they do about four or five sectors a day.

So Boeing 737's are in the news a lot simply because of the amount of flying they do.

HOLMES: Yes. That's good context. Again, not knowing the cause, but tell us about Indonesia's aviation safety record. How it's viewed in the industry.

[01:54:51]

THOMAS: Look, yes. There has been a lot of speculation about that. A lot of commentary about that. Certainly, 10 years ago Indonesian aviation was in not a very good space.

It had lost its FAA endorsement to fly to the United States. E.U. had banned all Indonesian Airlines from flying to Europe.

And now the Indonesians have done some great work in getting their ratings back. The FAA approved Indonesian Airlines to fly to the United States again in 2016. The E.U. lifted their ban in 2018.

But there are still accidents. And over the last 10 years there's been 12 accidents that have claimed 500 lives. And we're talking about regular transportation flights. We're not talking about military flights or private flights. This is simply regular transportation airline flights-- 12 accidents in the last 10 years.

So there's been a dramatic improvement. But they've still got a way to go.

HOLMES: Right. Jeff, we've literally got about 30 seconds. The data recorders have been found. How long before we know?

THOMAS: Well, hopefully within a week. Now, it depends on where they go. They may go to Australia to be read or even the United States. Although the Indonesians have lifted their capability in that space so it may well be they can read those in Jakarta.

But I would say within a week we will get some good data.

HOLMES: All right. Jeff, it's good to see you. Jeffrey Thomas there in Perth, Australia -- a real expert in the field. Thank you, appreciate it.

THOMAS: Pleasure, Michael.

HOLMES: And thank you for watching, spending part of your day with me. I'm Michael Holmes.

Do stick around. My colleague, Robyn Curnow will be with you after the break.

You're watching CNN.

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