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Interview With Former Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel; California COVID-19 Surge Continues to Worsen; President Denies Culpability for Capitol Attack. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired January 12, 2021 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

CHUCK HAGEL, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: All you need to do is -- and what we should have done, the people in charge with the responsibility of protecting the Capitol, is just read the news, listen to television and radio. You don't need classified information to know what was going to happen, and this president inciting it all.

And so the depth of it, though, was shocking, I think, for every American. And as we review it, Jim, and look back and review the tapes, it was very shocking. And what that says is, this country's in some trouble. And I think it's deep and wide and it's going to take some time to work through it. We'll get through it, but it's going to be painful and long.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: I want to talk about that.

I do want to note that on January 3rd, all 10 former living defense secretaries, including yourself, wrote a letter, published in the "Washington Post," saying that the election is over, calling for a smooth transition.

I'm just curious, that was a very unusual group of folks who served all parties, quite a variety of political viewpoints in there but a very urgent message. And I wonder, was there something specific? Was there a specific threat or concern that led you to do that at that time?

HAGEL: Jim, I can't answer for my other former secretary of defense colleagues. But for me -- and I've spoken with some of them -- but for me, it was an accumulation of the things that this president was saying, of what we were seeing, history, the last six months, what was going on in this country, of the current environment.

The president continuing to call for protests, demonstrations, he had won the election, it was fraudulent, we need to take back the country. Many of his enablers were out there saying the same thing.

So for me, it was an accumulation of all those things, and I think it was important for two reasons that we do that. One is to refortify and give the current military leaders, our uniformed military leaders, career service people, the support they need just to remind them of their constitutional responsibilities -- you take an oath of office to the Constitution, not to a president, not to a commander in chief, not to a party. Second, also, is to alert America of what the dangers are here, if this goes too far.

So I think for all those reasons and more, that was -- it (ph) was my point.

SCIUTTO: I want to ask you about this because there are Capitol Hill police officers -- they've been dismissed -- others being investigated for helping these rioters. There were current and former members of the U.S. military that participated. There's an image -- an alarming one -- of a decorated Air Force veteran on the floor of Congress there.

In your experience and what you've heard today, how deeply do you think that goes? Is it a very small sliver of the U.S. military that has sympathies with these right-wing extremist groups, or is it larger than that? And how aggressively does the military have to address that?

HAGEL: I don't think, Jim, it goes deep or wide in the military. I have no proof of that, but just my own sense, in staying in touch with the military and staying in touch with our people all over the world. I know some of that is out there. But in a way, we've always had a certain element of that represented in the military, but it's always been contained. And we have always maintained good order and discipline, it has never really gotten out of control.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HAGEL: But when you have a president, for the last four years, who's encouraged this, who's incited this -- he's the commander in chief -- they say, well, it's the commander in chief saying this, he's right, I think he's right and we need to do something. So leadership matters, Jim, bad leadership matters.

SCIUTTO: Yes. So the president was just asked about his role in this, I want to play how he defends himself and get your reaction. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is your role in what happened at the Capitol? What is your personal responsibility?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE NITED STATES: So if you read my speech -- and many people have done it, and I've seen it both in the papers and in the media, on television -- it's been analyzed, and people thought that what I said was totally appropriate.

And if you look at what other people have said, politicians, at a high level, about the riots during the summer, the horrible riots in Portland and Seattle and various other places, that was a real problem, what they said.

But they've analyzed my speech and my words, and my final paragraph, my final sentence, and everybody, to the T, thought it was totally appropriate. OK, thank you, thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: So some deflection there, as often he does there. He says totally appropriate. Your response?

HAGEL: The man is delusional, and it just didn't start with those comments or his speech. He's been delusional the last four years, we've seen it coming. It was not going to end well, Jim, it was not going to end well.

[10:35:12]

When you start with leadership or anything in life, when it's wobbly -- meaning, with leadership, if there's no character at the beginning and no integrity and no honesty, it's not going to end well. And this is not ending well, and we're not over yet. And he's going to be responsible for a lot of after-inauguration activities as well.

Next question is what happens to the Republican Party, and all the things that he started through this incitement. And it's going to be with us for a while.

SCIUTTO: Character is destiny.

(CROSSTALK)

HAGEL: Character is destiny.

SCIUTTO: (INAUDIBLE) Chuck Hagel, thanks so much for your time, we appreciate it.

HAGEL: Thanks, Jim.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Quite a statement there by Chuck Hagel for sure.

OK, as California struggles, desperately trying to get a hold on the COVID surge, the communities of color there are impacted the most. You will not want to miss our reporting from Sara Sidner, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:40:47]

HARLOW: California is in the middle right now of the worst coronavirus outbreak in the entire country. And in Southern California, the epicenter of this outbreak, low-income and minority communities are really taking the brunt of it.

SCIUTTO: People are dying. CNN's Sara Sidner joins us now.

Sara, you've been in the middle of it. You've spoken to doctors, nurses, patients, their families. It's taken a toll on you too, witnessing this up-close. Tell us what they're telling you.

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, I'm witnessing it and I can't take it any more. These families are living it. These doctors and nurses are living this, and the issue that I have -- and that we all are going to have, going forward -- is every single person I have talked to who is an expert in the field or works in these hospitals is expecting this to get worse.

Already, here in Los Angeles County, every eight minutes, a person is dying from coronavirus.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER (voice-over): Mariachi music slices through the silence. The melody is meant to soothe the family's sorrow, the cruelness of COVID- 19 on display. This is a funeral in a parking lot.

JULIANA JIMENEZ SESMA, MOTHER AND STEPFATHER DIED FROM COVID-19: My mother was a very strong woman, and she fought to the very last breath.

SIDNER (voice-over): Juliana Jimenez Sesma says these are the last words they exchanged.

SESMA: I told my mom, do not be afraid, for the Lord is with us. I love you and may God bless you. Keep strong for me, Mom.

And all she answered me was, yes, mija. Yes, mija, with that voice, with fear.

SIDNER (voice-over): Sesma lived with and cared for her mom, who had a lung condition. Her stepdad had asthma and diabetes. Her brother lives right next door, with his young family.

SIDNER: How many people ended up getting it? Did everyone --

SESMA: All of us.

SIDNER (voice-over): Her stepfather and then mother ended up here, Martin Luther King Jr. Community Hospital. They fought to live, just like those filling all the ICU beds now, but they died within 11 days of each other.

Dr. Jason Prasso treated both Sesma's parents.

JASON PRASSO, PULMONARY AND CRITICAL CARE PHYSICIAN, MLK JR. COMMUNITY HOSPITAL: I just want her to know that we here tried our hardest and, you know, we're really sorry that things went the way that they did.

SIDNER (voice-over): The terrible scenario is not unusual, as COVID ensnares those who live in multigenerational families and are part of the essential workforce.

PRASSO: We have had the misfortune of seeing this disease run through families, and all too frequently take multiple members of a single family. SIDNER (voice-over): The state-of-the-art hospital is an oasis of

care in the health care desert of South Los Angeles. It is no wonder the heavily black and Latino neighborhood is suffering disproportionately. The inequities in health care invites death.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His blood sugar dropped to 140 (ph).

ELAINE BATCHLOR, CEO, MLK JR. COMMUNITY HOSPITAL: Diabetes is three times more prevalent here than in the rest of California. Diabetes mortality is 72 percent higher. The life expectancy is 10 years shorter here than in the rest of the state, and all of that is related to this being an under-resourced and underserved community.

SIDNER (voice-over): That was before coronavirus arrived.

PRASSO: We're running like well over 100 percent capacity.

SIDNER (voice-over): The 131-bed facility is suddenly treating more than 200 patients, 60 percent of them are COVID patients. They've made space everywhere: tents outside, inside hallways, the prayer room, a former gift shop -- the battle to save a life, physically and mentally exhausting.

But on this day, a surprise reminder of why they fight.

ELAINE STEVENS, COVID-19 SURVIVOR: Hello, (INAUDIBLE), I'm here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There she goes, there (ph) --

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How you doing?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my goodness, you look amazing.

STEVENS: I'm back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh let me see, you got the dance moves? Oh yes, oh yes.

SIDNER (voice-over): Seventy-four-year-old Elaine (ph) Stevens (ph) returns to thank her doctor and nurses. She spent more than 40 days in this ICU before walking out alive.

STEVENS: I made it. A lot of days, I didn't want to make it. But I did it.

[10:45:05]

SIDNER (voice-over): As she celebrated a second chance at life, a ceremony for death was still playing out in a parking lot for the Sesma family.

SESMA: Don't let this be you. If you truly love your loved ones, don't let this be you. Continue to, you know, take all the cautions, take extra precautions, exaggerate if you have to.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER (on camera): Don't let this be you, those are the most poignant words you can hear from a family who has gone through this.

And I do want to mention, what we were listening to from the mariachi band. For those of you who don't speak Spanish or don't understand Spanish, that song is called "Amor Eterno (ph)" and the words exactly translate to what this family was feeling. "Eternal love, I'd rather be asleep than awake because of how much it hurts that you're not here."

And we heard the family talk about the fact that it's just so hard to wake up every morning and realize that their mother and stepfather are not there, they're not in the house with them. They were able to bury their mother, Maria Guadalupe Sesma, but their father, Alberto Reyes Gonzalez, they still have to cremate him, they're still waiting to cremate him, weeks after he died.

SCIUTTO: And now it's 376,000 Americans share a loss like that. Sara Sidner, thanks very much.

Well, the president spoke today about the violent riots and his words inciting them. He didn't take any responsibility, he claimed that many people say his comments were perfectly appropriate. He deflected, he claimed that others have said worse about protests in the summer. Nothing has changed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:51:15]

HARLOW: Five people died in that Capitol Hill riot last Wednesday, and the president doesn't think his words had anything to do with it: unbelievable. Speaking to reporters, moments ago, he actually said his words were, quote, "totally appropriate."

Elliot Williams is here, former deputy assistant attorney general at the Justice Department. Elliot, we had planned to have you on before we heard from the president, and I was going to start somewhere else. But I just have to start on that. I mean, as Jim put it so well a moment ago, nothing has changed. The last impeachment, didn't change anything.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No. No, sorry I cut you off. No, absolutely nothing did change anything. And it's funny you mentioned the last impeachment before you started talking about criminal offenses and penalties and couldn't he be charged with incitement or whatever.

HARLOW: Right.

WILLIAMS: Look, the simple fact is, there is a remedy in the Constitution for punishing, sanctioning and removing a president of the United States when he misbehaves and when he acts outside the bounds of his office. They should do it, they failed to remove him from office back in 2020, when they had the opportunity, and they should do it now.

And you know, and I'm looking forward to going back and forth with you about some of the criminal charges and liability the president might face, but first he needs to be removed from office, and there's a lot of hair-splitting happening right now when in fact they have a way to do it, if they have the will to do so.

HARLOW: OK, so after this, we're going to get to the criminal aspect of it that Pat Toomey brought up, because that's important and interesting. But just there are a lot of smart people -- Robert Ray among them, he defended the president last time in the impeachment; whatever you think of his politics, Senator Rubio -- that are saying, you know, don't impeach, divides, the country, censure.

Can you explain the American people why in your mind that is not enough, and not even close to an impeachment conviction?

WILLIAMS: Well, we're not exactly doing a bang-up job uniting the country as it is. Literally there was a violent assault on the United States Capitol, and the idea that it's divisive of the country to punish the person who was responsible for that, it's a capitulation to the violent people who attacked the United States of America.

Look, the other important thing about censure that you should know is that legally it has no teeth. And if it were to have teeth -- so, for instance, if a censure came with a penalty, it would be unconstitutional because it would be seen as violating the Impeachment Clause of the Constitution. It's quaint, it's cute, it's something that was done, I think, last in the 1870s -- or you more, more than a century ago. James Buchanan was censured.

But the simple fact is it's a different America now and you're dealing with a different level of illegality and irresponsibility from the president of the United States, and simply slapping him on the hand and making a statement from Congress that says, you know, hey man, that was really not cool? Just does not meet the severity of the offenses we're talking about today.

HARLOW: Well, the president says -- just moments ago -- he did nothing wrong, nothing wrong was his statement. Maybe he (ph) should listen to his fellow Republican, outgoing Senator Pat Toomey, who not only said it was wrong and that it's impeachable, but brought up to Jake Tapper, on Sunday morning, it might be criminal. So what's the criminal exposure for the president here, for his words?

WILLIAMS: Yes -- right. So now -- so speech, under the First Amendment, can be prohibited, you can get in trouble for it if it's directed at inciting imminent lawless activity or is likely to incite or provoke such action. And the argument could be that the president incited the violent action.

Now, if the president is getting good legal advice -- which, no comment, but -- if he is, what they would say is that, you know, what he was engaged in was protected speech from someone who's an elected official. He's merely encouraging lawful protest.

Look, that's not an awful argument. At least as a former prosecutor, you know, I'd still charge him, I think prosecutors could still charge him. But there's a good chance you lose on the basis of that because he could make the argument that you're now chilling all future politicians from saying even slightly remotely aggressive things.

[10:55:14]

I'm not adopting that argument, I'm simply saying that's what a smart defendant would go into court and try to argue, and could probably get past a jury.

HARLOW: We'll see what they argue if this does reach a trial in the Senate. Elliot Williams, thank you very much, good to have you today.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

HARLOW: And thanks to all of you for being with us on just another remarkable and monumental day. Tomorrow, a big morning, we'll see you then, I'm Poppy Harlow.

SCIUTTO: And I'm Jim Sciutto. NEWSROOM with Kate Bolduan will start right after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everyone, I'm Kate Bolduan. Thank you so much for joining us.

The country is in the midst of what could be some of the most consequential days in American history. First, at this very moment, we are watching Capitol Hill. Right now, lawmakers are getting set to sit down to consider and debate the resolution imploring the vice president to invoke the 25th Amendment to remove President Trump from office. It's essentially an ultimatum.

The House Rules Committee is the last stop for any measure before it heads to the House floor for a vote, that is getting under way in just a few moments. We are going to be bringing that to you live, it is a critical step in this consequential week.

Later today, this very same committee will also be debating the impeachment article, unveiled yesterday, which will also soon be heading to the House floor, almost assuredly making Donald Trump the only president in history to be impeached twice, following the deadly siege he incited on the Capitol last week.

What will that debate look like? What will Republicans say, who stood by the president, pushing these lies? And, remember, all of these members were also targets of the violent mob last week. We'll bring that to you.

We are also watching the president as he emerges from seclusion for the first time since the Capitol was attacked. Just a little time ago, he spoke briefly to reporters before he was heading to the border wall. And if there was any question remaining, nothing has changed.

He called this impeachment effort a continuation of the greatest witch hunt in politics, and then gave the empty statement at this point that he does not want violence, he says. Except that is exactly what he was promoting when he spoke to that crowd before he stormed the Capitol.

And the threat isn't over. CNN has confirmed House Democrats were briefed last night on a handful -- as it was put -- specific threats to come, threats to overthrow the government and even potentially kill lawmakers around Joe Biden's inauguration.

[11:00:06]