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Several Republicans Could Break Ranks, Join Democrats in Impeaching Trump; Rep. Liz Cheney Urges Colleges to Vote Their Conscience on Impeachment; Trump Advised to Denounce Violence to Reduce Legal Liability; Interview with Sen. Tammy Duckworth (D-IL); McCarthy Was for Challenging Election Until He Was Against It; 3 Democrats Blame COVID Diagnoses on Maskless Republicans in Safe Room. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired January 12, 2021 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:31:27]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: House Democrats' strive to impeach President Trump for his role inciting last week's riots at the capitol is putting some Republicans in a bind as they weigh how to vote on Wednesday.

While the vast majority of House Republicans are expected to oppose the article of impeachment, there are expectations that several could break ranks.

CNN is reporting just last night there was a conference call. And in talking to go her colleagues, Congresswoman Liz Cheney, who is the number-three Republican in the House, urged them to vote their conscience on Trump's impeachment.

We also learned a short time ago that Senator Ted Cruz's communications director resigned in the wake of last week's attack.

Dana Bash is CNN's chief political correspondent, and Sophia Nelson is a contributing editor at "The Grio" and is a former GOP House Committee Counsel. Her latest book is called "E. Pluribus One, Reclaiming Our Founder's Idea of a United America."

Dana, I wonder, when you listen, when you hear that Liz Cheney said this, what does that mean to you? Is that exposing a rift inside the GOP? How do you read this?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the rift is there, as you know. So the question is: How is that going to manifest itself when we see what we expect to be a vote tomorrow.

I've been talking to Republicans on the Hill this morning, and one said to me the dynamic is as follows.

That the easy thing to do, politically speaking, is to vote no on impeachment for these Republicans.

The hard thing to do, which is always the case in life, right, is to do what many believe is right, which is to vote yes, which is to be on the right side of history and to send the message that should have been sent in a much louder, much more profound way long ago.

But particularly, let's say, two months ago, never mind a week ago, which is, this will not stand. You can't get a mob together and inspire them to storm a capitol.

But never mind that, to brazenly lie over and over and infect people who support you with things that are not true to the point that they feel that they are doing your bidding to challenge the Congress, is beyond impeachable.

So those are the kinds of conversations that are going on inside the House Republican conference, and ultimately, we expect at some point, among Senators.

KEILAR: So let's talk about this decision that we've seen some lawmakers make and unmake, and who knows, maybe they will make them again. I'm talking about Lindsey Graham who is going to the border with President Trump today.

And we should remind people what he said on the floor of the Senate last week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Trump and I, we've had a hell of a journey. I hate it to end this way. Oh, my god, I hate it. But my point of view is that he's been a consequential president. But today, all I can say is, count me out, enough is enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: He said, Sophia, we've had a hell of a journey, then he said count me out, and now he's on the airplane. What do you think?

SOPHIA NELSON, CNN LEGAL & POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Let's not forget, this is the same Lindsey Graham that told us in 2016, if we nominate Trump, Trump will destroy the Republican Party and we'll deserve it. He was 100 percent correct.

[13:35:02]

He was 100 percent correct. I'm done with the Republicans. I'm so done with the House leadership, Kevin McCarthy, Scalise, Jim Jordan, all of them.

Don't forget, they went back into that chamber after the acts of violence and death and murder in our nation's capital and still voted against certifying the Pennsylvania electoral votes. They did it after the fact.

Kevin McCarthy has no spine. He's weak. Lindsey Graham, he's all over the place. One minute he hates Trump. One minute he loves Trump.

This Republican Party is done for. And everything Dana said is 100 percent correct.

Me, as someone who was a Republican for 20-plus years of my life, worked on the Hill, worked in the capitol, I am heartbroken.

You can tell I'm emotional about this because I can't believe that, even right now, they don't have the guts and the decency and the patriotism to stand up and take this demagogue down - demi-god, demagogue, whatever you want to call it -- and take him out of party.

They're still hedging their bets because they're afraid of the base. They're afraid of these seditious cowards.

This is what we better get used to because it's not going to change. They're not going away. And I don't think they're going to do the right thing. That's a problem.

BASH: Bri, can I add one thing to that about Senator Graham?

KEILAR: Sure.

BASH: Because I think this moment speaks to the larger problem with the way so many Republicans have dealt with Donald Trump since the beginning.

And that is that they believe -- and I know Senator Graham feels this way, he said so publicly -- that it's better for him to stay close to the president, to have some influence on the president, to keep lines of communication open with the president, than to say, you know, to actually -- for us to take literally what he said on the Senate floor which is, I'm out.

That is the approach that so many of them took. And guess what? Despite the fact that they will tell me -- and I'm sure you privately as well, Brianna -- you don't even imagine the things that could have happened had we not been there.

OK, let's just put that aside, true or not. What is true is that if Senators and members of Congress, who are still in discussions with him, who are still trying to influence him, just froze him out and put him on the island, where he should be when it comes to defending and not desecrating our Constitution, things could be different.

But it is an approach that they continue to take. And there's not a lot of evidence that there's a lot of payout.

KEILAR: Yes, I mean, whatever ambitious power-hungry people tell themselves, I guess I would say to some of that, it's just -- I don't know, to me, I think, when you look at what happened at the capitol, that's sort of an inflection point to change their calculus.

BASH: That's right.

KEILAR: And we're seeing some who unchanging. They've changed it and they've unchanged it.

Sophia, we're getting some reporting from CNN's Jim Acosta that advisers and lawyers who have been speaking with Trump over the last few days have encourage the president to lower their rhetoric and asked him to denounce violence in order to reduce his legal liability for the attack on the capitol.

I know you both probably have pretty similar assessments as to whether that would happen.

But is there a real risk of legal liability for President Trump?

NELSON: Absolutely. I believe he violated the Insurrection Act, not only with his statement after the violence, which was chilling and unbelievable, but his statements at the rally before.

The fact of the matter is -- you ladies mark my words on this -- he's going to ratchet it up again. He's going to do it when he gets down to Texas today because he's thinking about his fate afterwards.

And he is thinking about how he has to keep these people who are beholden to him so much that they would go and wreak and riot in the capitol. He has to keep them on the goal so he can make money so he can do what he's going to do after he's no longer president.

That's what this is about. And get ready, America, we've just seen the beginning of this. That's the heartbreaking part.

KEILAR: Dana, real quick, before I let you go. Have you heard, when you're talking to Republicans on the Hill, anyone who is saying they made a mistake? You know, look, we know there were signs, but we also know people missed them or they ignored them.

Is there anyone who is kind of doing some soul searching at this moment?

BASH: Elected members I have spoken to, the answer is no. Staffers who work for them, the answer is yes.

Brianna, you reported Ted Cruz as communications director resigned.

I've talked to other people who are consultants, kind of less close to those who have been so enabling of Donald Trump and his partners in this, who have told me that they are embarrassed, they're disgusted, they feel horrible.

[13:40:10]

You know, some people have come forward. But if you gave truth serum to a lot of people we know, you would see and hear a whole lot more of them.

KEILAR: Dana, thank you so much for sharing that with us.

Sophia, thank you for your perspective today. We do have some breaking news. Reports that the FBI warned of a,

quote, "war at the capitol." A war. Contradicting claims that there was no indication in advance of looming violence.

Plus, the president's actions are hurting his wallet. Hear about the banks that are now cutting ties with him after the siege.

This is CNN's special live coverage.

[13:45:26]

KEILAR: The House is moving quickly on impeachment with a vote expected tomorrow. The timeline for the Sente is not quite as clear.

We have Illinois Democratic Senator Tammy Duckworth with us now, ahead of a pivotal week in Congress.

Senator, thank you so much for being with us.

SEN. TAMMY DUCKWORTH (D-IL): It's good to be on, Brianna.

KEILAR: Your Democratic colleague, Joe Manchin, of West Virginia, I want to listen to something he said on FOX and discuss it with you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): I think this is so ill-advised for Joe Biden to be coming in, trying to heal the country, trying to be the president of all the people, when we were going to be so divided and fight again. Let the judicial system do its job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now, Manchin is sharing a view here with some Republicans. He did vote to convict Trump the first time, but obviously he's raising questions about whether he will do that again.

How essential is it, in your view, that Democrats are able to convict?

DUCKWORTH: Well, I think that there needs to be consequences for these actions. Otherwise, you're sending a precedent for future precedents and future bad behavior. So I do think there needs to be consequences for these actions.

I'll wait to see what the articles the House puts forward are.

And I also know that we can wait to hold the hearings a little bit later.

I know there are all sorts of ways of doing this. Chuck Schumer has talked about it being sooner or later. It could happen after 100 days of Joe Biden being in office.

But I have to say I agree with my Senator of West Virginia that we have a lot of hard work in front of us, and what we should be focus on is the pandemic and getting the economy working again. I do think President Trump either steps down, through either -- he

steps down, the 25th Amendment or impeachment.

But I would hate for that to get in the way of taking care of Americans who are dying right now. Every hour, we are dozens of Americans who are passing away from this pandemic.

KEILAR: So are you saying that you would actually support or you would prefer that this is something that is delayed beyond the first 100 days?

DUCKWORTH: I'm open to it. I want to see what the articles are moving forward.

I think that he must be punished, and there must be consequences with these actions.

We've got protesters who responded to his call to action. And you see these insurrectionists who attacked the capitol and they're being arrested and have consequences, then Trump should be accountable for his actions as well for breaking the law and for really essentially starting this whole insurrection in the first place.

KEILAR: There's this discussion ongoing right now between the Biden camp and Senate Democrats about splitting the days so that there would be legislative business half the day and then a focus on the impeachment trial for the second half of the day.

Of course, as you are aware, well aware, the political capitol in the first 100 days of an administration is finite. So there's no way that this wouldn't bleed off something, from trying to tackle these agenda items, the coronavirus stimulus bill, one of the biggest among them.

Are you thinking this is an important -- I mean, is this a point the Democrats need to decide, in your view, that if they get impeachment, they're going to forgo the chance to really make a difference on Biden's agenda?

DUCKWORTH: I would never want to forgo a chance to make a difference on Biden's agenda. But I would think if the president-elect has looked at this, if that is his proposal, that we need to look at this very seriously if that's what he wants to do.

I'm very focused on making sure we get the $2,000 checks out to everyone as soon as possible. I'm even willing to vote on that separately.

We need to then talk about getting the vaccine out to everyone. We need to get the economy moving again.

And, yes, we have to punish Donald Trump.

I'll wait to hear and see exactly what the House brings forward tomorrow when they have to vote.

KEILAR: So the president, as he left for this border trip that he is currently on, he suggested the effort to impeach him will lead to violence.

If there's violence around the inauguration, which certainly seems to be a real possibility. There are threats and expectations of armed protests at the very least at state capitols around the country and the U.S. capitol as well.

What would you say if Republicans blame your party for that violence?

DUCKWORTH: Well, I would say that they need to look to the head of their party, President Trump. The one person who can stop the violence is Donald Trump.

[13:50:02]

Right now, on this tour that he's taking, instead of dealing with what's at hand and going down to the border and talking about the border wall again, he could be talking to the American people and telling all these supporters, who are believing his lies, tell them, stand down, stay home, let's support our democracy, stop attacking our constitutions, and let's let the democratic process move forward.

He could stop the violence. He could stop it right now, dead in its track and tell everyone to go home. But he won't do that.

Because why? Because Donald Trump is a fragile man with a fragile ego who is about to power. And he can't stand it.

What does he do? He goes out and he tells lies and he foments insurrection, and he encourages people to violence.

And that leads to what happening on the 6th of January this year, which is Americans attacking Americans. That is not acceptable.

KEILAR: Federal investigators are currently looking into whether current law enforcement, so active-duty law enforcement or military, were involved in the siege on the capitol.

There was a Special Forces officer who was the capitol. It's unclear if she violated laws.

You're a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. You are a decorated combat veteran. You sent a letter to the acting secretary of defense, Chris Miller, on this.

What concerns does this raise for you about potential military involvement?

DUCKWORTH: The concern is raises for me is that Donald Trump has successfully politicized the military. And we need to stop that in its tracks. That's why I sent the letter.

If you're currently serving or you fall within the UCMJ, where you can be recalled, to be prosecuted for this insurrection, we need to prosecute these individuals. There should be consequences for those actions. Members of the military should not be attacking the capitol of the

United States. They took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States, our country, from all enemies, foreign and domestic. They need not be that enemy themselves.

So all of those who are -- who fall within the UCMJ, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, should be prosecuted with ending the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

KEILAR: We know this is a story that will be continuing so and we will be talking to you about this.

Senator Tammy Duckworth, thank you for being with us.

DUCKWORTH: Thanks for having me on.

KEILAR: House Minority Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy tells Republicans he was stern with the president on a tense call that the election is over. But, up until the insurrection, he helped fuel the conspiracy theories. We'll roll the tape.

Plus, a third Democrat, who was in the safe room during the riot where Republicans refused to wear masks, has now tested positive and Democrats are blaming their Republican colleges. We'll have that next.

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[13:57:26]

KEILAR: A third member of Congress tested positive for COVID following last week's riot and lockdown at the capitol.

Democratic Congressman Brad Schneider, of Illinois, said he received a positive test this morning. And he's blaming his GOP colleagues for the infection.

Schneider is one of the lawmakers who fled the capitol mob and spent hours confined in a room with other members of Congress.

There were several Republican lawmakers there who were refusing to wear masks. They're Marjorie Taylor Greene, a QAnon supporter from Georgia. There was also Congressman Markwayne Mullin, Andy Biggs, Scott Perry, Mike McLeod and Doug LaMalfa.

I want to get now to CNN's Phil Mattingly on Capitol Hill.

Phil, I thought they were supposed to wear masks. Tell us what the rules are there. And are the lawmakers there quarantining now that there are three members tested positive?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the rules pertain to the House floor. If you're on the House floor, you have to wear a mask.

The recommendation is that you should be wearing a mask at all times. That's from the office of attending physician. But it's clear, once Republicans are off the floor, some, not all, choose not to wear masks.

The difficulty in the moment of Wednesday, on January 6th, is not everybody, not everybody, but a large number of lawmakers were packed into that safe room.

You saw that video first released by "Punchbowl News, a Democrat walked up and offered masks to those Republicans and they turned it down.

Since then, three Democrats, as you noted, including one who is a cancer survivor, Bonnie Watson Coleman, have all tested positive.

And, Brianna, I can't overstate how furious Democrats are about this right now. They had a very lengthy conference call last night, just the Democratic conference. They had a number of different issues, whether it was security or whether it was impeachment.

A large part of that conference call, I'm told by a member who was on it, was venting frustration about Republicans putting them in this position. They're calling for penalties.

You have Debbie Dingell and Anthony Brown, two members of the House, who are now proposing legislation to impose $1,000 fine on any Republican -- not any Republican, any member who chooses not to wear a mask.

Pramila Jayapal tested positive. Said she wants the sergeant-at-arms to immediately remove anybody on the House floor not wearing a mask.

Even though it's required, we've seen Republicans, in the last couple of days take their masks off at various points.

So it underscores this divide that has existed really since the start of the onset of this pandemic. There are Republicans who do not believe in masks, do not believe they should not wear masks.

There are Democrats who are very clear that's one of the answers, as the CDC says, as the government says.

And that divide is continuing to be exacerbated, and it is more so in this moment where they didn't have a choice. You couldn't go anywhere when you in this room.

[14:00:04]

Now three Democrats have tested positive. There's outrage. There's calls for penalties. And my guess would be, Republicans who don't wear masks probably will continue to not wear masks.