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U.S. Attorney Looking at Significant Sedition and Conspiracy Charges; Trump Says on 25th Amendment be Careful What You Wish For; Impeachment Moves Forward as FBI Warns of Possible Inauguration Violence. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired January 12, 2021 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: And secondly if you could, one at least, Senator Schumer, has talked about the possibility that some people might be put on the no-fly list. Of these 170 case subject files that you've already opened can you tell us whether you've added any of those people to like a no-fly list as a result of what happened?

STEVEN D'ANTUONO, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, FBI WASHINGTON FIELD OFFICE: So we're looking at all different avenues here, so my agents and analysts and all the other FBI personnel in my office and across the country are scrubbing video.

We're talking to witnesses. We're talking to individuals that we arrest and we're gathering that picture, that intelligence, if you will, to understand what happened on the 6th that day in the Capitol, outside the Capitol. We're talking to all law enforcement partners and it's not just FBI doing this. It's all of our law enforcement partners as well that are working in conjunction with acting U.S. Attorney Mike Sherwin's office and our local office here, too, as well.

So we're sharing that intelligence amongst each other and we're putting into intelligence cycle that the FBI has to try to ascertain the true picture of what happened that day. As for the no-fly list, we look at all tools and techniques that we possibly can use within the FBI, and that's something that we are actively looking at.

STAFF: The next question is from Catherine Herridge from CBS News. Please, go ahead.

CATHERINE HERRIDGE, REPORTER, CBS NEWS: Thank you for holding this event. The two pipe bombs that were found at the RNC and the DNC, does this cross the threshold to domestic terrorism because they are political targets? And do you think this was designed to pull first responders away from the scene as the Capitol was breached or an effort to maim lawmakers as they evacuated?

SHERWIN: So, I'll try to address that question for you the best I can. Yes, those two pipe bombs that were found were found both outside the RNC and the DNC offices near the Capitol grounds, and look, to begin, they were real devices. They had explosive igniters. They had timers. We don't know obviously exactly why they did not go off. That's being investigated.

They were destroyed, disabled by Capitol police with the assistance of the ATF and that is all obviously being vetted and investigated. What was the purpose of those devices being planted? Was it a diversionary type of tactic used by some of the rioters? Was it something - or did it have some type of other nefarious purpose?

So that is what the ATF, the FBI and PDR are looking at as we speak right now and looking for those persons that planted those devices. In terms of the conduct related to planting those, you know, pipe bombs, you know, the mention of domestic terrorism I've mentioned this before, I don't like this tyranny of labels saying an act is domestic terrorism.

We have plenty of federal resources at our disposal, plenty of federal charges to address all of this conduct, from felony, murder, related to the possession and use of destructive devices, to seditious conspiracy, you know, under the federal code that has significant penalties and as mentioned with this strike force that was established to focus strictly on sedition charges, we're looking at and treating this just like a significant international counterterrorism or counterintelligence operation.

We're looking at everything - money, travel records, looking at disposition, movement, communication records, so no resource related to the FBI or the U.S. Attorney's office will be unchecked in terms of trying to determine exactly if there was a command and control, how it operated and how they executed these activities.

STAFF: The next question is from Pierre Thomas from ABC News. Please, go ahead.

PIERRE THOMAS, REPORTER, ABC NEWS: Yes, thank you. Are you looking at the possibility that some of these suspects were attempting or planning to take members of Congress hostage?

D'ANTUONO: So I - I want to talk about Mike's - the prior question first just because I want to emphasize that we have a $50,000 reward out for the information - any information and identification of the individual or individuals that left the pipe bomb, so I just want to make that perfectly clear that we're looking at all angles in that. Every tool, every rock is being unturned because we have to bring that person or people to justice. Can you repeat the question, please?

THOMAS: Are you looking at possibility that some of these suspects who breached the Capitol who had zip ties and other things, looking at possibility of taking members of Congress or others hostage?

[15:35:00]

D'ANTUONO: So, like I answered the last couple of questions before, we are looking at all angles here. We're interviewing everyone. Interviewing witnesses and interviewing subjects as they get arrested around the country, and within the District as well to ascertain the true purpose of some of these individuals in the Capitol that day.

STAFF: The next question is from Jake Gibson from Fox News. Please, go ahead.

JAKE GIBSON, REPORTER, FOX NEWS: Thank you, first of all. I have two actually. Number one, Senator Cassidy has tweeted out a photo that he said was of an individual that authorities wanted to - to get in contact within connection possibly with the killing of the Capitol police officer Sicknick. Number one, can you give us any type of update on that situation?

Number two, I know you talked about intelligence leading up to the day before or leading up to the day of the riots, but there are some specific reports out that there was, you know, at least one report out of FBI in Norfolk that painted a pretty grim picture. Can you confirm that, and were authorities on The Hill, you know, really ready for what was coming at them?

D'ANTUONO: So the investigation into officer Sicknick's passing is - is an ongoing investigation. We are looking at everything that we possibly can. It cuts us to our core that one of our law enforcement brethren passed away. It's an ongoing investigation. There's a lot of tools and interviews that we're still conducting, there is a whole host of video that's out there. We're reviewing all that information.

As for the information that's being presented out there right now about Norfolk. That was a thread on a message board. That was not attributable - it was being attributed to an individual person. We - like I said in my statement we deal in specifics and facts. That information, when my Washington field office received that information, we briefed that within 40 minutes to our law enforcement partners, federal and state law enforcement partners that we had at our command post, it got ingested into the JTTF system and was again shared with all our law enforcement partners through that process that we have. And that's the action that we took on that and that's it.

STAFF: This concludes our question and answer session as well as the conference. Thanks for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: OK, let's take it from there. We heard a lot, but we're still waiting to understand given the intelligence, given the warnings how was this insurrection, this violent mob not stopped sooner?

Andy McCabe, I want to start with you, CNN Senior Law Enforcement Analyst, and former Deputy Director of the FBI.

You know, we hear the numbers. It's been six days, 170 case files, this is the tip of the iceberg. They have 100,000 pieces of digital media, you know, talking about the cases already charged to the initial charges, and a lot of misdemeanors but then can grow based upon the levels of theft and felony murder. But you just listened to all of that. Everyone is sitting here wondering how the hell they did not stop this sooner? What's the answer? ANDY MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Brooke, that's - is the perfect setup. You said we heard a lot but we understand very little, and I think that's the sum total of what I take away from this. There's a couple things that are just kind of screaming out to me here.

BALDWIN: Yes.

MCCABE: I think the first thing that needs to be said it's been six days since our Capitol was attacked by a violent mob and this is the first time we've heard from someone. FBI Director Christopher Wray and Acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen should have been standing on that stage.

BALDWIN: Where are they?

MCCABE: I - I can't answer that question for you, Brooke. I just don't know. There's no rational explanation as to why we've seen such a lack of senior leadership engaged in informing the public. I can't remember an incident where in recent past where it's been handled this way and that's really pretty shocking.

There was the slightest touch on the intelligence issue that we've been discussing all afternoon, the FBI report purportedly from the Norfolk field office to the Washington field office about the very specific plans for the violent attack that were picked up by the FBI in likely social media monitoring.

And you know, I felt like the explanation was just, well, this is the way we handle it. We have a JTTF here and we get intelligence in and it's everybody's responsibility to --

BALDWIN: That would have included U.S. Capitol police, but --

[15:40:00]

MCCABE: Yes, you know, and that's true. That's the - that's the structure that the bureau uses to pull everybody together under the same roof and do this work together. But when you get a piece of intelligence that's of such monumental important you don't just hope that the right person will see it. You complete an effective hand-to- hand handoff. You confirm that the right people have what they need to know.

I mean this is exactly what we talked about in the aftermath of the Boston Marathon bombing, right. There was a lot of discussion in the FBI about, how effectively are we really feeding even our JTTF partners, our closest partners, with the things they need to know? So I think there's still some significant questions around that one.

And beyond that I just felt like that - what we heard from the acting U.S. Attorney was almost more of an argument to convince us that the investigation is going well. Rather than telling us actually what's happening. There were a bunch of references to I'm going to clear up misperceptions and what the public should know is X, well the fact is that people are having misperceptions and don't know things because we haven't been told anything until this moment. So I feel like we have a long way to go with the public side of this investigation.

BALDWIN: It felt reactive and not proactive. I appreciate your list. And stand by because I want to come back to you.

Evan Perez, he's our guy. You were on the phone asking the question about, you know, if there was any indication there was planning or coordination going into the Capitol rather than this mob up and, you know, heading towards the Capitol and, you know, hosting, having this insurrection. You heard the whole thing. What stood out to you?

PEREZ: Well, look, I think what Andy McCabe is pointing out is that it's definitely one of the frustrations that everybody has with what exactly happened here. And I think you pointed to it which is the fact that we're going to learn more. We're going to know that there were things like this Norfolk FBI warning that just didn't seem to get to the right places and perhaps didn't prompt the right things to happen. Because it's clear with our own eyes we can see that the Capitol Police were not ready, were certainly not ready for what was coming, and more should have been done.

But I think, you know, a couple of things that I was struck by from this conversation today was the fact that they are pursuing sedition and conspiracy charges. During the summer, Brooke, the Attorney General Bill Barr and the now Acting Attorney General Jeff Rosen told prosecutors around the country to look into bringing sedition charges related to some of the unrest, post-George Floyd.

And there was a lot of controversy, but the irony is that now this is going to be used against some of the president's supporters, you know, essentially who carried out this attack on the U.S. Capitol. I think that's a very big deal because it's going to be, you know, potentially up to 20 years in prison. Some of these people are obviously have additional charges they're facing.

The other thing that I think is interesting here is obviously they talked about 170 cases. They are talking about hundreds of cases of arrests that they expect to have. They're building intelligence to understand whether or not, you know, what the Norfolk field office heard on that online thread, whether that is true. Whether someone did have some knowledge about the tunnels under the Capitol. How did they know that? Was there someone on the inside who knew about this and maybe was helping?

All of those questions are at the top of the mind of those officials that you saw there because they need to know whether or not there's some insider who may pose a threat in the future.

BALDWIN: The two pipe bombs that they were asked about, right, outside the DNC and RNC, was that premeditated, was that a diversionary tactic, the potential for taking members of Congress hostage. These are all much larger and much, much more important questions. Evan, thank you.

Nia-Malika Henderson is our CNN senior political reporter and I'm thinking of the politics of all of this. I mean when you hear about the range of criminal conduct, they said is unmatched. Various levels of theft, everything from, you know, Speaker Pelosi's personal mementos, to national security information, to national defense information, to an assault on officers and to felony murder, Nia. How can the Republicans not take action is my question.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Listen, we'll see what Republicans do, but we know what everyone saw on Wednesday unfolding in front of our eyes on live television. Those mobs of people wreaking havoc, being violent. Of course, it led to the death of five people, a Capitol police officer, included Officer Sicknick and, you know, I felt like today there this a sense of urgency and horror that Americans are feeling about where this country is right now and what we all saw on television.

[15:45:00]

And I don't think this press conference really matched that. You know, I sat down here thinking this would be a fairly long and informative press conference. I think it ended up being about 35 minutes. So you know, in terms of the politics of it I think that's obviously something that will be hashed out in Washington. Republicans will have to figure out where they want to go.

I think we know. I think we know where they've been all along. Mostly with this president. I think that's where they'll end in these last days even though we know that this is a president who looked at all of the images we saw on Wednesday and told those people that he loved them.

He was glued to his television and he seemed to be enamored of what they were doing acting in his name and the violent way that they acted there. Trying to overturn a democratic election and having, you know, their way with those officers and the danger that all of those people were put in, the vice president, the vice president-elect and the speaker and all of the law makers there and their staff members. This is horrifying to people.

BALDWIN: Traumatic.

HENDERSON: Traumatic to this country and we don't know what comes next, and I have to say what we saw today wasn't very confidence- inspiring in terms of what we're going to see going ahead and if they are ready because they certainly weren't ready on Wednesday.

BALDWIN: If they're ready for the inauguration --

HENDERSON: Exactly.

BALDWIN: -- next Wednesday.

HENDERSON: Next Wednesday.

BALDWIN: And all these threats that we're hearing about at the various capitols.

HENDERSON: Exactly, the years ahead, this domestic terrorism that was visited on the Capitol in such a visceral, horrible way, this is where we live now. It's where we've been for a while. We saw the missed signs here. They have got to get ready for where we are, and it didn't seem like they were from this press conference.

BALDWIN: Nia, thank you. Thank you so much.

HENDERSON: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Asha Rangappa is with me former FBI Special Agent. Basically what I'm hearing from everyone is a massive swing and a miss from the FBI and DOJ. What did you hear?

ASHA RANGAPPA, CNN LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I found that press conference really confusing, Brooke. As you mentioned the phrase, you know, the FBI is reactive and it can be proactive, and I think what they were focusing on was the reactive capacity that they have. At which they excel. If there's one thing the FBI does better than anyone else in the world is solving crimes, and so they are certainly on it. The 170 cases, the charges.

But I think the question that people have is why did you miss this in your proactive capacity before it happened? Why wasn't the FBI with its partners able to thwart it? And remember that after 9/11 this was the same question, and its ability to enhance its proactive capacities was the focus at that time.

It is harder to do that when you are purely in a domestic capacity because there are civil liberties concerns that you have to balance. But I think that even taking that into account it is hard to understand, especially since they definitely - they acknowledge that they had intelligence in their hands, why it was not followed up on as Andrew McCabe said.

The other thing, Brooke, that I didn't hear anything about at all, is the potential for future violence. Which the FBI itself has already warned about in the capitals of all 50 states. That was not mentioned at all. And so, you know, if we look at the press conference as serving several purposes, informing the public, you know, staving off, you know, conspiracy theories and misinformation and deterring future activity and sending a signal that they are on it, I just didn't think it really fulfilled any of those goals.

BALDWIN: Left wondering about a lot of things in the coming days and especially inauguration and throughout the country and especially in those state capitols where, you know, residents can lawfully open carry weapons and if some of these - I use the word American loosely, you know, are threatening this violence, it just - my head goes to those worst dark places. Asha, thank you.

I want to stay on the, Andy McCabe, back to you. Because I know that the FBI says its tracking reports of these various threats ahead of the inauguration, my mind is back on Washington for the big inauguration next week. President-Elect Biden says, you know, he's not going to let this change his plans for the inauguration. Asha brought up, you know, the threats at the various state capitals across the country. How concerned are you? MCCABE: Well, Brooke, I mean, I think all Americans should be concerned, right? We saw that orgy of violence on the Capitol just six days ago and so that's hanging in all of our minds, but I will say that the inauguration can be secure.

[15:50:00]

This is one of the - one of the times that the federal government brings the absolute most resources, best technology. You have your highest degree of cooperation to the table to essentially create a bubble around the affected areas in D.C. and ensure that no one goes in who shouldn't be there and nothing bad happens. But to pull that off --

BALDWIN: What about the rest of the country?

MCCABE: That's the bigger problem here, Brooke, and that's the one that's what's keeping me up at night. That is not the case in 50 state houses around the country. You know, you talk about state budgets who have been beat up by COVID and every other negative aspect of this economy.

BALDWIN: People are exhausted.

MCCABE: They're exhausted. They've been working shorthanded and short- manned for years. They don't have the massive law enforcement community to rely on that we have here in D.C. It's a very, very concerning time for our state and local partners, I think.

BALDWIN: We'll stay on that in the coming days. Andy McCabe, thank you so much to you, of course, and to Asha, and Nia, and Evan.

Much more breaking news ahead, including the latest on the president's second impeachment. Special coverage continues after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:55:22]

BALDWIN: President Trump in Texas right now is insisting, and I'm going to quote him now, that the 25th Amendment is of zero risk to him but he claims that it will come back to haunt Joe Biden and the Biden administration and he adds this line. Listen to this. He says as the expression goes, quote, "be careful what you wish for. Be careful what you wish for." This is coming from the president.

This, as House Democrats are pushing ahead to impeach him as soon as tomorrow in the aftermath of that insurrection last week on Capitol Hill. So with me now, CNN Presidential Historian Douglas Brinkley and former U.S. Attorney Harry Litman. Harry first to you. "Be careful what you wish for."

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: You know, we've learned for the two dozenth time he's not really a lawyer and doesn't know what he's saying and also that he always goes on offense. There're some reasons that the 25th Amendment isn't that strong here, but I doubt he's aware of them.

BALDWIN: I'm just curious, when I look at this, Doug, that the next quote from the president today in Texas, the impeachment hoax is a continuation of the greatest and most vicious witch hunt in the history our country and is causing tremendous anger, and division, and pain, far greater than most people will ever understand, which is very dangerous to the U.S.A., especially at this very tender time.

I mean, I know you're a historian, and maybe this is out of your lane. But I'm just wondering if this is coded language to those white supremacists who support him.

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: No question that it is, Brooke. I mean the spasm of violence that took place at the U.S. Capitol wasn't spontaneous. It was orchestrated by Donald Trump. He is going to face charges of sedition in one way or another, and that Congress would be delinquent if they weren't moving forward with impeachment. There should be the 25th Amendment evoked but, of course, Vice President Pence doesn't want to.

So Trump is down in Alamo, Texas. He doesn't even know that that's not where the real Alamo is in San Antonio trying to make a big line the sand and sound tough and macho, as if he's the reincarnation of Colonel Travis and Davey Crockett.

And really, he's just a president that's lost allies, faith of our citizens and is crumbling around the world. He is a man with only a few days left on his watch. And so I wouldn't - we have to be cautious of what he says. The FBI has to start monitoring, really, anybody who is interacting with Donald Trump, and some day he will pay for the insurrection he launched upon the U.S. Capitol.

BALDWIN: Harry, what about potential charges? You know, this language obviously continues from him. Are we talking potential sedition charge?

LITMAN: Yes, they're very real. And he's a bad client because he keeps contradicting what he's saying. If he's not impeached, you have to at least look at them, Brooke. You're going to throw the book at all these other folks, but you can't then ignore the ringleader.

So I don't want to prejudge where Merrick Garland - and it is Merrick Garland by the way, don't forget it's not the acting U.S. attorney or the FBI folks you saw. I don't want to prejudge where they'll go but they have to and will seriously look at him, not to mention Giuliani and Trump Junior.

BALDWIN: There is, gentlemen, so much news flying fast and furious. Doug, you know, we are in it. But can we try to step back? We are on the precipice of history. You know, a sitting U.S. president getting impeached a second time. We are bearing witness to a man, Doug, who, I'm hearing some calling him the worst president this nation has ever seen. Can you give us some perspective here?

BRINKLEY: Well, without question he's the worst president. He doesn't even belong in the presidents club. It used to be James Buchanan or Warren Harding. We now have a president who tried to have a coup at the U.S. Capitol. Who is declaring our free and fair elections with is the crown jewel of the United States, that we're proud about, was rigged when without any evidence and who's been pardoning people left and right that were his cronies, and they even end up having to do a self-pardon.

He is more in line with Benedict Arnold, Joe McCarthy, you know, maybe Huey Long kind of figure. But he doesn't really belong in the president's club. And he's in for a rude awakening. He still does have power these next few days, but as soon as he leaves the Oval Office, he's down in Mar-a-Lago. It is - all presidents are shocked by having power and then none.

And his Twitter's shut down. Facebook's shut down. He's going to be looking for alternative right-wing media platforms and he's going to find the full force of the law coming after him.