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Trump Could Issue Pardons to Distract from Impeachment; Feds Warn of Emboldened Extremists; Armed Protest Planned at Michigan State Capitol Building Sunday; Interview with Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison about Threats of Extremist Groups; McConnell Rejects Speedy Trial As He Remains Undecided on Convicting Trump; House Impeachment Managers Map Out Prosecution Against Trump; Senate Impeachment Trial to Begin After Biden Inauguration. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired January 14, 2021 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Worst way possible. A White House aide says that he is hoping a slew of new pardons unveil as soon as today will become a distraction. And while the House move fast to hold the president accountable for the deadly riot on Capitol Hill, Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell is pumping the brakes on a Senate trial. So it will not begin until after President-elect Biden is inaugurated.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: That's right. What it does not mean is that McConnell has the president's back fully, at least like he did in the first impeachment. The Senate majority leader is reportedly furious and has not ruled out voting to convict the president. And now and only now with a possible Senate conviction on the table, the president calls for peace in a recorded video. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There must be no violence, no law-breaking and no vandalism of any kind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: But that video, we've learned, was recorded only after aides to the president convinced him to do so, and also, by the way, where were these words from the commander-in-chief a week ago? Where were they?

All of this as 20,000 National Guard members are expected in Washington for the inauguration next week. A giant fence has been set up all around the U.S. Capitol. And a new intel report warns domestic extremists are likely now more emboldened to carry out an attack on Inauguration Day or after. More emboldened. That is terrifying.

We begin this hour with our John Harwood at the White House. So how much meat is there to this potential additional slew of pardons

to change the conversation?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I think Donald Trump has to worry about self-protection at this point. You know, Donald Trump rarely does the right thing and he never does the right thing for the right reasons.

But he issued that statement last night because -- disavowing violence, because he's under intense pressure. Not only the pressure of the Senate trial where he could become the first president to be convicted, even if it's after he left office, he faces potential criminal legal liability for inciting that insurrection.

And he faces all of the follow-on consequences of the fleeing of corporate America, his bankers, of all established institutions from the president, from his lies about the election, and from that insurrection. So the pardons could be an instrumental step that he would take to pardon family members like Donald Trump Jr. who told -- warned members of Congress, we're coming for you if you don't support us on the election.

It is far from clear that he could make a self-pardon stick constitutionally, but if you're Donald Trump, with just a few days left in office, and enormous problems facing you, it's hard to see why he wouldn't take a flyer on attempting to do that. And so I think that is a key reason for the set of pardons, not to mention the fact that he loves exercising that absolute power and can protect himself and can protect friends and people close to him.

HARLOW: John, thank you. We'll watch. We're going to see what happens and comes out of the White House this morning.

We do turn now to the Capitol, very much on edge amid a new warning of threats.

SCIUTTO: The threats are serious. They're disturbing to read. Jessica Schneider is in Washington with what the FBI is saying.

What does their intelligence say, Jessica? And what are they saying to law enforcement, not just here in the capital but in state capitols around the country?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That's the thing, Jim and Poppy. These are nationwide warnings. So there have been a flurry of bulletins and warnings circulating among law enforcement agencies right now. And the real takeaway is that domestic extremists are feeling emboldened and that's heightened the likelihood for attacks on Joe Biden's inauguration.

So here's what the latest intelligence bulletin says that we've obtained. It says this, it says, "The violent breach of the U.S. Capitol Building is very likely part of an ongoing trend in which extremists exploit lawful protests, rallies and demonstrations and other gatherings to carry out ideologically motivated violence and criminal activity. The increasing prevalence and influence of conspiracy theories based on a belief in the existence of global or deep state actors who work to manipulate various social, political and/or economic conditions of the United States very likely serves as a driver of some extremist violence."

So this bulletin pointing out that extremists are infiltrating what might otherwise be peaceful protests, and they are doing so because of conspiracy theories that are propelling them into action. Conspiracy theories, of course, that they are often hearing from the president.

So, Jim and Poppy, a lot of warnings, a lot of concern this morning from law enforcement agencies like FBI and Homeland Security and Secret Service. In addition to this bulletin, FBI Director Wray we learned briefed law enforcement officials all over the country about those armed protests that could be here and all over in 50 state capitols, guys.

[09:05:10]

HARLOW: And Jess, on top of this, the investigation into the insurrection at the Capitol last week now has found some evidence at least that there was a certain level of planning to all of this?

SCHNEIDER: Yes. That's the question here because it appears that way. The video evidence that's emerging here, it shows many of these rioters had knowledge of the layout of the Capitol which is very confusing for a layperson and they came armed with tools and weapons to force their way in. So here's one video that emerged yesterday. It was captured hours into the insurrection and it really shows this determination that some rioters showed in breaching the Capitol.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, guys. I've been in the other room. Listen to me. In the other room on the other side of this door, right there where these feet are standing, there is a glass that if somebody -- and it's broken, you can drop down into a room underneath it. There's also two doors in the other room. One in the rear and one to the right when you go in. So people should probably coordinate together, if you're going to take this building. We've got another window to break to get in and out easy.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This window here needs to be broken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHNEIDER: So the level of specificity there is shocking, and based on all of that, guys, prosecutors, they're using the same tools to investigate as they might use in a counterterrorism probe. They're looking at command and control, how this attack was planned and organized. They also say they're following the money for clues. And they're using public integrity prosecutors, national security prosecutors to really approach this like a sprawling terrorism probe as they still promise more charges in this case, guys.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Listen, if planned, the missed warning signs, right? Why not better prepared on that day, still an open question.

Jessica Schneider, thanks very much.

Well, federal officials are warning of specific threats of violence by extremist groups in both Michigan and Minnesota.

HARLOW: That's right. Let's get to our colleague Miguel Marquez. He is in Michigan at the state capitol.

Good morning to you, Miguel. Obviously, we saw what happened there earlier, you know, at the end of last year. How are officials preparing to keep it and the people inside safe this week?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, so this is all part of a much larger effort in all 50 capitals. Michigan is particularly sensitive to this because they've seen so much protest at this building in the past. It is planned for Sunday. The so-called Stand Up for Liberty. Organizers saying it's going to be an armed but peaceful protest in state capitols. Officials are expecting about -- they are planning for thousands of people here.

They're not sure they're going to get that. They will put up a fence around the Capitol. That side of the Capitol is already under construction and mostly fenced off and inaccessible. They may board up some of the windows but the Capitol probably it won't be open on Sunday so they'll be able to protect the building itself. But there is concern about how many people will come here and going forward.

The governor saying that they are coordinating with state police that are in charge of security. National Guard and local police agencies, that they are planning for whatever they might be -- might bring, not only Sunday but in the days ahead. They're looking out over the next couple of weeks.

Inauguration Day as well, they are concerned about even here in Lansing, Michigan. As you know, there were armed protesters that took over this building back in April. They did it again in the summer. Some of the individuals that took over the building then threatened and had a plot to kidnap the governor. All of that was anger over COVID restrictions. After the election, that same anger was there and built.

There were armed individuals that went to the home of the secretary of state here. So officials taking it very, very seriously. They're not entirely sure what to expect, but they are taking every precaution they can.

Back to you guys.

HARLOW: Glad they are. Miguel, thank you very much for that reporting.

Joining me now to discuss is Minnesota attorney general Keith Ellison.

Mr. Attorney General, thank you for being there. There are a lot of really scary threats about your state this morning. There's this FBI bulletin from December 29th that pointed to evidence of credible threats for this Sunday in Michigan and Minnesota by the Boogaloo Boys, that extremist group. In that memo is this quote from one of the group's members. Quote, "The building with the snipers would need to be blown up in order to protect Boogaloo fighters in the event of a gun battle."

It's not clear what event they're talking about. Is there more you can share with us this morning?

KEITH ELLISON (D), MINNESOTA ATTORNEY GENERAL: I can tell you that both state and federal partners are working together, planning. The governor will call up the National Guard to protect Minnesota's Capitol from the possible threats.

[09:10:05]

And everybody is going to be very much on alert. But they won't catch anyone by surprise this time. We know they're there. We know how violent they can be. And we're just determined to stand up for fair, democratic elections, rule of law, and I view this as on the order of a coup against the state of Minnesota and the United States.

HARLOW: A coup against the state of Minnesota. Well, you talk about potentially catching folks off guard again, but listen to this. The "Star Tribune" in Minneapolis quotes a local Republican leader in Woodbury, actually someone who ran for your former seat in Congress last year, and she said this, on what appears to be referring to the events of the 6th of January. Quote, "We're going to fight. We are going to go down. There are going to be casualties. I will be the first casualty. I do not care."

I mean, that is a local leader.

ELLISON: Right.

HARLOW: It's hard to believe but it's true. I had to reread the quote over and over again. Given comments like that, I know you have a hotline open 24/7, what more information are you guys looking for?

ELLISON: We're looking for any information that may look strange or suspicious or represents a threat to the stability and rule of law in our state. Anybody who is making threats, anybody you know, we want you to call and let the Department of Public Defense, the FBI, local law enforcement know about this. Give them the identity, give them the substance of the threat, and help your state be as prepared as it can to maintain order and to maintain stability.

HARLOW: The governor, Governor Waltz's son, 14 years old, had to be evacuated in tears last week in the middle of all of this, in the middle of the storming of the Capitol rally in St. Paul and there were reports that some people were standing outside their residence yelling through the bullhorn to the governor, we're coming for you.

ELLISON: Right.

HARLOW: The governor has talked about Minnesotans, obviously, deeply concerned about their safety. Should they be? ELLISON: Well, I mean, we need to be concerned, yes. I mean, I think

-- I don't want people to be panicked, but I do want people to be concerned and alert. And I will say that, you know, Trump earlier -- well, in 2020, he didn't just say liberate Michigan. He said liberate Minnesota, too, in a tweet. So he identified us early on. We were the target of many fake and unsuccessful lawsuits to overturn the election. False allegations of, you know, election fraud.

And we had -- you know, so the bottom line is, Minnesota, we are ready. We're prepared. We're talking. We're working together trying to do all we can to maintain good order and safety, and rule of law in our state. And we're going to do that.

HARLOW: I wonder why you think this is happening in Minnesota in particular.

ELLISON: Well, I think that, you know, President Trump has electrified a movement who is deeply committed to grievance. They feel that they don't want to share the country with women, with people of color, with immigrants. They feel the country is theirs, exclusively theirs. And anybody else is not legitimate. They hated President Obama. And this is who these folks are. They're organized and they want power. Simple as that.

HARLOW: Let me end on this, the "Minneapolis Star Tribune" also this morning is reporting that two city of Minneapolis employees are at least under investigation for possibly adding to the insurrection. We don't know if they were part of storming the Capitol. I get that this is ongoing. I wonder if you have an update for us this morning, again considering that they were government employees, and if there are any more.

ELLISON: Well, all I can tell you is that everybody who contributed to the coup attempt at the Capitol is going to be held accountable. And if anyone knows any information, share it with us immediately. We need it. And we'll use it fully.

HARLOW: Can you give us that phone number quickly? Where should people call?

ELLISON: People should call the local FBI or the local police department in which they live.

HARLOW: OK.

ELLISON: But, yes, call the local FBI, call the office there, and it's an easy number to get. You may also call our office if you have credible information and our number is 651-296-3353.

HARLOW: Minnesota attorney general Keith Ellison, we wish all of your teams a lot of luck in keeping the peace over the next few days. Thank you for being here.

ELLISON: Thank you very much.

HARLOW: Well, still to come, President Trump has been impeached for an historic second time. His term ends in just days, but then what comes next? Big questions over how Senate Republicans are going to respond going forward.

[09:15:00]

SCIUTTO: Plus, we're going to speak to a Democratic member of Congress, does President Trump's latest message attempting to calm the violence go far enough? And how the unrest across the country in the second impeachment of President Trump could impact President-elect Biden's term in office. He's concerned. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Welcome back. So this morning, house impeachment managers are starting to lay out their strategy for making their case against President Trump in the upcoming Senate trial, that includes whether to bring witnesses and whether to subpoena documents.

[09:20:00]

SCIUTTO: Lauren Fox is on Capitol Hill. So, two big questions for you, Lauren. How long do we expect this trial to last when it begins after the inauguration now? And will the Senate Majority leader allow this two-track plan, right, to allow, say in the mornings to consider other business including nominations for key posts, and then try in the afternoon?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, Jim, I think the answer to those two questions is we just don't know at this point. And really, that's something that Senate leaders -- Senate Democrats in particular are trying to figure out at this moment.

What we do know is the fact that Senate Majority leader Mitch McConnell doesn't plan to bring back the Senate. In fact, he said in a note to his members yesterday, quote, "I believe it will best serve our nation if Congress and the executive branch spend the next seven days completely focused on facilitating a safe inauguration and an orderly transfer of power to the incoming Biden administration."

In this same note, McConnell made it clear to his members, he hasn't made up his mind yet whether or not he would vote to convict President Trump or -- who will be former President Trump by the time they get to this trial in a Senate impeachment trial. But I'll tell you that, look, Republicans are looking to McConnell right now to get a sense of where he is.

We don't have a sense of whether or not there's going to be 17 Republicans willing to vote with Democrats. We do know, however, that there is a lot of discussions happening right now about whether or not there would be some kind of agreement between Schumer and McConnell to allow some kind of dual track plan where essentially in the morning, Biden would be able to move forward with his nomination process on the Senate floor, and then in the afternoon, they would have a trial.

Now, the question becomes whether or not they're going to hold this trial right away. Whether they're going to wait a little while -- if you have house impeachment managers wanting to bring forward witnesses, wanting to have more of an investigation, that's going to take time, and potentially that pushes the trial even later. A lot we don't know right now. We'll keep you posted of course, as we get more information and as all of this becomes clearer. Jim and Poppy?

SCIUTTO: Lauren Fox, we know you'll be following it. Thanks very much. Joining us now is Laura Coates; she's a former federal prosecutor and CNN senior legal analyst. Laura, so many questions to ask you. First question, a very basic one. Senator Tom Cotton who broke with the president on his comments January 6th, despite his long support for him said on the question of voting to impeach the following.

The founders desire -- or rather to convict. "The founders designed the impeachment process as a way to remove office holders from public office. Office not an inquest against private citizens." Is the laws, the constitution clear on the question of whether you can try a former president for removal as opposed to one currently serving?

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It's not as clear. Of course, the founding fathers did not particularly contemplate perhaps all that we have seen unfold in the year 2021 and before that. But what is very clear is that they have an interest in being able to have the legislative branch act as a check against an abuse of power. And they probably did not contemplate just being able to run out the clock on abuse of power. And remember the president is not an ordinary citizen when he returns to society on January 21st.

He still has a great deal of perks, Secret Service, a travel budget, a pension. He also technically could be offered the courtesy of presidential briefings. And so, the idea that you treat him as if he is a regular citizen, everyday Joe is really absurd. Also, there is precedent, not for a president to have been convicted following office, but there is precedent of impeachment carrying over after somebody has left office as long as it began, in part, before so.

HARLOW: Laura, you tweeted last night, President Trump says no true supporter of his could have acted like the insurrectionists. So, does that mean there are no pardons forthcoming? A little bit -- little bit in just. I mean, you clearly think they're coming. Are you indicating -- you think a mass pardon could be coming for the folks who led that on the Capitol?

COATES: Well, it certainly binds the president. He's blocked himself in, hasn't he? On the one hand he's saying no true supporter of his could have ever engaged in the behavior of the insurrectionists. On the same token though, if he were to extend a pardon, like Jimmy Carter did, many -- years ago at this point in time, talking about draft dodgers, he would essentially be saying that he believes that, that behavior is pardon worthy.

And so, on the one hand you got the self-pardon issue, those of his family members, those in his inner orbit and circle. But what about the people who believe they were acting on his behalf? And as a prosecutor, I have to tell you, when you have time to develop your case, as is the case right now between having the impeachment, which is akin to an indictment, and the actual trial, you have the development of witness testimony.

And there is no better gift to a prosecutor than having somebody who could now potentially want to cooperate and volunteer information because they feel slighted and alienated by the person they perceive as their ring leader. So, the president's comments could have a multitude of consequences, not the least of which being the fact that he is now locked himself in politically to pardons.

[09:25:00]

SCIUTTO: That is such a great point, Laura Coates because it gets at a key issue here. The president always acts in his own interest on these things with legal questions. And now that he faces possible legal liability for incitement. I think you've heard that directly from the U.S. attorney for D.C., that he would at least investigate. Do you see a self-interested motivation here in pardoning the Capitol rioters because to defend themselves in a trial, they might say, well, the president told me to do it.

COATES: Well, of course, he has some basis for thinking that might be the case. You've seen at least one of the organizers for this rally, I believe his name is Ali, who already named three members of Congress that he believed were actually instrumental in the planning of it. Now they've all in Washington D.C. fashion tried to extend that old 10- foot pole to say, I didn't know him or it wasn't me or he's misunderstood --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

COATES: Something. But the idea that people who are now ready to name names could be an issue. Now, remember what Kevin McCarthy said on the floor yesterday, Jim and Poppy, that he believed that due process was lacking. There wasn't enough information or evidence to support.

Well, the longer you have this out there and you have the ability for investigators, whether it's a house impeachment manager or members of the U.S. Attorney's offices to confirm or even to further incriminate and maybe exonerate some, you've got more of an opportunity for the president of the United States to think, do I want to extend the privilege of a pardon to save my own hide or in doing so, will I actually condemn and incriminate myself?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Laura, we just had Minnesota's Attorney General Keith Ellison on right before you. You're from Minnesota and we went over the sort of remarkable ongoing threats that, that state Capitol is facing after the governor's own son had to be evacuated, the Boogaloo Boys with serious threats about blowing up buildings, et cetera, there. I just wonder what power lawmakers have to limit any gatherings, if any power, given the First Amendment in the next few days there in Michigan, et cetera.

COATES: What a sad state of affairs, isn't it, Poppy? To think about this continuing to happen all across the country --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

COATES: And even the Michigan dress rehearsal that we saw, what? Eight --

HARLOW: Yes --

COATES: Or nine months ago, then turned into the insurrection at the Capitol. Well, the First Amendment is a fallacy to think that you can say whatever you want with no consequences. We routinely prescribe people's ability to say things and have a consequence. Think of the classic example. I could say --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

COATES: I'd like to hire a hit man, but guess what? There's a consequence of that notion there. And so the government, as long as they have some basis, that is content neutral to restrict speech that's not based on what you're saying but the time, place and manner you're saying it, then there is First Amendment authority to say that the government can actually do that. Here, it seems reasonable to me that they could say as a blanket statement, no one can appear at the Capitol --

SCIUTTO: Right --

COATES: They're not going to give permits for protests or anything else because it's content neutral. I don't care if you're for Biden or against him, you cannot be here at this time, at this place in any manner.

HARLOW: OK, that answers it, Laura. Good to have you -- great to have you. Thank you very much. The streets --

COATES: Thank you --

HARLOW: Of our nation's capital look very different today as security ramps up ahead of President-elect Joe Biden's inauguration. We're going to take you to Washington next.

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