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Feds Warn Extremists are Emboldened to Carry Out More Attacks after Capitol Siege; Evidence Uncovered So Far Suggests U.S. Capitol was Planned; Senate Impeachment Trial to Begin after Biden Inauguration. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired January 14, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: Disqualifying him from holding public office.

[10:00:02]

Again, today, a slew of new pardons could come as his days in the White House run out. Will President Trump remarkably, amazingly, unbelievably and any other time pardon himself or attempt to. We have teams covering it all.

We begin, however, with CNN's Josh Campbell on these threats. Josh, what is remarkable here, right, is that the read from the FBI is that these right-wing groups saw the Capitol riot as a success, a win and feel emboldened now. Tell us what that means and why.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONENT: That is right, Jim. As shocking as that attack was on United States Capitol, we are also learning that it did not happen in a vacuum. Our intelligence sources, we're learning from, are telling us that these extremists actually see that as a success.

This is according to a new joint intelligence bulletin obtained by the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security by our colleague, Whitney Wild. And in this intelligence assessment, what is says is that these extremists that officials are monitoring are looking at that event, they see that as a win. This has now fueled them. And what their fearful of is there could be follow-on attacks by those extremists here in the United States.

I'll read you just a portion of this bulletin. It says, the violent breach of the U.S. Capitol building is very likely part of an ongoing trend in which extremists exploit lawful protests, rallies and demonstrations and other gatherings to carry out ideologically- motivated violence and criminal activity.

It goes on to say that, with the perception among some extremists that the breach of the U.S. Capitol was a significant advance towards achieving their ideological goals, they may be inspired to carry out more violence.

Now, what is also striking in this intelligence assessment, as officials look at motivation of the extremists is just how closely some of these grievances mirror what we have heard from Donald Trump. This intelligence bulletin says it's some of the motivated factors of this extremist as this is due, that there is this deep state inside government that is controlling things, that's trying to undermine Donald Trump. Another grievance also being the baseless view that the election was stolen.

Now, of course, what lawmaker officials cannot control is the motivating factor and, of course, we have not heard from Donald Trump come out and actually forcefully condemn these groups and their motivations, which could take the fuel out of some of this. But as of this, intelligence officials are on alert, on high edge as they look to the future about possible attacks here in the United States.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: Wow. Josh Campbell, thank you very much for your important reporting this morning.

Now, to the security that they are putting in place, our colleague, Pete Muntean, is there following just how huge, strong this presence is. You're learning there is a big concern about explosives this morning.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Poppy. And, you know, the security fortress here is incredibly jarring. An inauguration would be typically be a time where thousands of people come to Washington. To show you how empty this is here, along Constitution Avenue, no chairs, no bunting, no Jumbotron, instead the massive wall erected here.

I am six feet tall. This is at least eight feet tall, on the other side, some of the 20,000 National Guardsmen arriving here in Washington right now. The security threat is real. The Pentagon said it is worried about more improvised explosive devices, pipe bombs like those left outside of the RNC and the DNC and the head of the Metropolitan Police Department said there is real a reason why they District wants downtown emptied out right now.

Here is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF ROBERT CONTEE, METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT: As the mayor has encouraged residents, as she has encouraged visitors from around the country, we're not asking people to come to D.C. for this. There is a major security threat and we are working to mitigate those threats. So, again, we are just -- we're intently focused on the job that is at hand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MUNTEAN: The fortress here is nothing short of impressive and you could see some of the National Guardsmen here heavily armed with M-4 guns. If someone did make it on the other side of this fence, they would be met with a lot of firepower.

We're not sure the severity or the extent of these new threats and we might find out a little bit more later on today when Vice President Mike Pence meets with FEMA about this inauguration like no other. Poppy, Jim?

SCIUTTO: Fortress Washington, new reality. Pete Muntean, thanks very much.

All right, the next step, a Senate trial of the president. Now that President Trump has been impeached for a second time in the House, when and how will he be tried in the Senate, how quickly?

CNN's Lauren Fox joins us from Capitol Hill with more. So many open questions here, right? Does it start immediately, do they wait 100 days, how long does it go and does Joe Biden get to do any other business with Senate while the Senate trial is underway? All open questions.

[10:05:00]

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Exactly, Jim. Look, impeachment, the reality of impeachment, what it means for the first 100 days of Joe Biden's presidency, that is all still to be determined. Look, we're waiting to see when House Speaker Nancy Pelosi will transmit the article of impeachment over the Senate. But when she makes that step, when they move forward with that, it essentially triggers the Senate into a Senate trial the next day at 1:00.

So I am told that those the conversations are ongoing. She met with the house managers last night to decide and to try to make some plans around what they want to see in a Senate trial. But, look, they are going to be communicating with the incoming Senate majority leader, Cluck Schumer, because it's going to have a major impact on what Joe Biden is able to do in his first several days in office.

Remember, if they send over these articles of impeachment while the Senate is out in recess right now, it would trigger the earliest that a trial could take place Wednesday at 1:00.

Now, that, of course, is the day that Joe Biden is going to be inaugurated as president. Is that a symbol that you want to be sending to the American public when Joe Biden is going to be trying to unite this country, not fall back into partisan politics?

So that is one of the items that they're looking at. Of course, we have our eyes on Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, who has said he is not going to bring the Senate back, but has not said whether or not he would vote to convict Trump in an impeachment trial in the Senate.

He told his members yesterday in a note, quote, I believe it will be best to serve our nation if Congress and the executive branch spend the next seven days completely focused on facilitating a safe inauguration and an orderly transfer of power to the incoming Biden administration.

Now, the reason McConnell's vote is so important, it is pretty obvious but I'll say it anyway, is Republican senators are going to be looking at what their leader does in this instance in, in this moment. It could have a bearing on how the rest of the conference votes. A reminder, they need 17 Republicans, they're not there yet, Jim but they could be moving closer if McConnell moves forward with the conviction.

HARLOW: Lauren Fox, thank you very, very much. It is going to keep everyone quite busy.

SCIUTTO: So, in the midst of this clear and present danger to the Capitol and the inauguration and an expanding pandemic, what was the president up to? Well, CNN has learned that Trump may issue a new wave of pardons today, perhaps even pardon himself. Why? Change the subject from his secondary impeachment.

HARLOW: One week after inciting that deadly insurrection on the U.S. Capitol, the president posted a video condemning violence but a source tells CNN this only happened after aides had to convince him, had to talk him into doing it. Watch part of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I unequivocally condemn the violence that we saw last week.

Mob violence goes against everything I believe in and everything our movement stands for. No true supporter of mine could ever endorse political violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: John Harwood is at the White House with us again this morning. Good morning, John.

Important words but where were they a week ago?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Look, President Trump finds it almost impossible to accept responsibility for his bad behavior. He is not capable of acknowledging that he actually lost the election, that he wasn't cheated. This is his -- his psyche requires him to assert that.

But he does respond to pressure that he gets and he's under intense pressure from the political system, from the American business community, including from fellow Republicans. And Mitch McConnell has applied that pressure, as Lauren was just indicating. Ten Republicans who represented the most members of a president's party who have ever votes to impeach in American history, they applied that pressure and Donald Trump responded by doing the bare minimum, which was saying that he didn't not believe in violence.

He has not repudiated the things that he's been saying for weeks since the election. That would be the clearest signal to his supporters that would alleviate some of the concern around Washington about this situation. He has not been able to do that yet. We'll see whether or not additional pressure over the next several days before he leaves office will compel him to do that. SCIUTTO: I mean, the simplest thing would be to say, this is a free and fair election, I lost, Joe Biden is your president as of Wednesday. He hasn't done that, showing no signs he will. John Harwood, at the White House, thanks very much.

Weapons, planning and tactics, investigators now say that last week's attack on the U.S. Capitol was more than just a spontaneous protest that got out of control.

Plus, since the election, First Lady Melania Trump has been relatively silent.

[10:10:03]

We're learning new details about why as the first family prepares to leave the White House.

HARLOW: And as the U.S. passed a grim new milestone in the COVID pandemic, more signs that it just looks like it's going to get worse for Americans before it gets better. An update, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: There is new evidence in the investigation to last week's deadly insurrection at the U.S. Capitol.

HARLOW: That's right. Federal officials say they are now discovering just how detailed some of this planning looks like it was in the days leading up to the riot.

Jessica Schneider joins us. Good morning, Jess. Planned, details, five deaths, what do you know?

[10:15:01]

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Investigators looking at this real possibility, guys, that the U.S. Capitol attack, it wasn't just a spontaneously protest but methodically planned perhaps. And that's because of the tactics and the weapons that we've seen on this video that keeps coming out. It suggests a high level of planning. Plus, prosecutors have learned that some people who gathered at President Trump's speech left the event early that day, possibly to retrieve items to be used in this assault on the Capitol.

And the video evidence we're seeing, it encapsulates how prepared some of these rioters were. Some of them giving intricate and specific instructions once they breached the Capitol about how to maneuver. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, guys, I've been in the other room. Listen to me. In the other room on the other side of this door, right here where these feet are standing, there is a glass that somebody -- if it is broken, you could drop down into a room underneath it. There're also two doors in the other room. one in the rear and one to the right when you go in. So, people should

probably coordinate together if you're going to take this building.

We're in. We got another window to break to make in and out easy. And this window, there is (INAUDIBLE) needs to be broken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHNEIDER: There is a shocking level of specificity there. So, prosecutors are now focusing on the command and control aspect of the attack, how it was planned and organized and really treating this like a sprawling terrorism probe where they're focused on what one investigator says, is following the money to find out how these people organized and plotted.

And, guys, in addition, officials are looking at reports that groups of people who may have been at these riots got tours from members of Congress days before the attack. Now, this doesn't mean any members of Congress are under investigation but more than 30 House members, they are calling on Capitol police, as well as the sergeant at arms to investigate. And one House Democrat, guys, he is calling this a, quote, reconnaissance mission.

So there is great concern and, of course, warning bells as well throughout the country about what could still transpire here, guys.

SCIUTTO: A lot of questions to be answered. Jessica Schneider, thanks very much.

Joining me now to discuss is Phil Mudd. He's a former Senior Intelligence Adviser for both the FBI and the CIA. He's also a CNN Counterterrorism Analyst.

Phil, always good to talk to you. You and I, through the years, have spoken about multiple times about multiple terror attacks here around and around the world from jihadists, right, Islamic terrorists. Now, we're seeing domestic terrorism here in the U.S.

First of all, when you look at this riot and you hear things, you see the communication, the planting of pipe bombs, et cetera, what is the degree of planning, in your view?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Well, I'm looking at this -- I look at it as a spectrum. We keep hearing this language about how people plan beforehand. To my mind, the two edges of this are four guys drive up from Georgia or Alabama or Pennsylvania or New York and they talk about, hey, we're really energized, we think we can go into the Capitol, do a quick search on the Capitol, where is the entry, what avenue is that. To me, that is not a conspiracy. That's four guys sort of kind of thinking about it. You can call it a cluster.

Let's go to the other end of the spectrum. People are researching plans for the Capitol. They discuss who did what when they get to the Capitol. They store weapons or explosives in their trunks and they know when during the president's speech they're going to leave. That, to me, sounds like more of a conspiracy.

Right now, the FBI has a lot of work to do. We could talk about how they would do that. But I see a lot of gray area here between a cluster and a conspiracy. I don't have any answer yet.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this though. Law enforcement officials believe that these groups view this as a win. And as you know, there is a bulletin that's gone out to all 50 state capitols about armed protests on or around inauguration day. And, by the way, there are now going to be 20,000 National Guardsmen in the Capitol more than U.S. force deployments in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria combined. You don't do that just for the heck of it. What is your reading of the degree of the threat today?

MUDD: I would you say it is significant but maybe not based on what you're seeing on the media. For example, I'm looking at the presence of tens of thousands of National Guard in the D.C. The likelihood that the footprint -- not the likelihood, the certainty that the footprint of the inauguration will be minimal. I mean, D.C. has prepared for this kind of stuff for years, decades, and the presence is going to be outrageous if you look at those photos of servicemen sleeping in the Capitol.

What I would be concerned about is a couple of things, Jim, number one, breadth, 50 states. You can't surge resources to 50 states simultaneously and some of those states will have vulnerability. The second thing I would be concerned about is anybody who is thinking about doing this is looking by how the feds are arresting people, how the feds are talking about how they look at people by scraping the internet.

I wouldn't be concerned about 200 people protesting in a state capitol.

[10:20:00]

I'm worried about three guys who say, we're not going to talk. We're not going to participate in a bigger group that might be targeted. We're going to come up with our own plan. That is the kind of stuff I'm worried about. You can't stop that, Jim.

SCIUTTO: The FBI has been warning about right-wing extremist groups for years. Now, prior to the Trump administration, though often time those warnings were deliberately underplayed by some political appointees in the Trump administration. I wonder -- and, by the way, the fact show that more people have been killed in this country from right-wing extremism than even jihadi extremism, at least in the recent years.

In your view, how does the current threat from groups like this -- I'm not talking about Trump supporters, I'm talking about armed right-wing extremist groups compared to jihadi terror threat that we've been so focused on since 9/11.

MUDD: This is more significant and I can explain specifically why. Number one, the jihadists threaten people. Nearly 3,000 died on 9/11. They did not threaten American culture. There was never -- and, in fact, you saw the democracy surge after 9/11, the support for President Bush, the support for being American, the support when Bin Laden was killed by all spectrums of the American political scene. This is about America. This isn't about people coming in from outside trying to disrupt us, who never have a chance to do so.

The second thing I would say is breadth. 500 people in my own rural following of Al Qaeda and ISIS is a ton of people. These are tens of thousands or more. Just look at how many people showed up at the president's rally and surged through the Capitol. I mean, that's about the number cases we had against Al Qaeda nationwide years ago.

And the last and final, really tough, Jim, is free speech. I could do whatever I wanted against an Al Qaeda person in Pakistan. I can't do whatever I want against a sympathizer with violent extremism on the right, the right-wing sympathizer in (INAUDIBLE), I can't. And that, to me, is huge. I want to watch them. But as soon as I do, somebody is going to say, you're infringing on free speech and their congressman is going to be on my butt.

SCIUTTO: Well, things we heard on the floor of the House just as recently as yesterday. Goodness, a stark warning, Phil Mudd, thanks very much.

MUDD: Thank you.

HARLOW: Will a looming impeachment trial for the president in the Senate stall the first days of the Biden presidency? How does he get it all done? We're going to talk about that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

SCIUTTO: President Trump, of course, now has been impeached for a second time. Whether to convict him and bar him from ever holding public office again soon will be in the hands of the Senate.

HARLOW: That is right. Republican Senator Tom Cotton, a Trump loyalist, already made clear he is against a trial happening altogether. He says, quote, the founders designed the impeachment process as a way to remove officeholders from public office, not an inquest against a private citizen.

Joining us now is Alan Frumin, he is a former parliamentarian of the U.S. Senate, and Scott Jennings, former Special Assistant to President George W. Bush. Really, good to have you both on this.

And Tom Cotton raises an interesting question, right? Alan, what do you think? It has not legally been tested before.

ALAN FRUMIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No, it has not been tested. As far as the Senate is concerned, the Senate has the authority to conduct a trial of an impeached official who has already resigned. The obvious -- well, for the Senate, the obvious example is from 1876. It involved the secretary of war, Belknap. He was -- the House began impeachment proceedings against him. He looked at the proceedings and he thought, goodness, maybe I should get out of dodge.

He ran down to the White House. He submitted his resignation to the president, nonetheless, the House continued and adopted articles of impeachment against him and sent those articles to the Senate. The Senate conducted a trial and, ironically enough, voted to acquit him.

SCIUTTO: Scott Jennings, sorry --

FRUMIN: (INAUDIBLE).

SCIUTTO: Scott Jennings, you, of course, worked for years with Senator McConnell. I treat you as the McConnell whisperer here. What do you expect to be McConnell's play on this question? Clearly, Joe Biden wants to get started on his agenda, including nominations, confirming nominations, but also stimulus, COVID money, et cetera. Do you believe McConnell allows this two-track approach, in effect, in the morning do the nation's business, in the afternoon, do a trial?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I think, in some ways, Jim, he's already made the play. And the play is he doesn't want to have a trial this week. The trial will begin, I guess, next week when the Democrats formally take over the House. And it will be up to them to sort of figure out how the Senate is going to work.

I do think Mitch McConnell does not want to prevent Joe Biden from forming a government. I've heard him say that before, that it was important for the continuity of government that the new administration get a chance to put in the people. So I think the odds of a dual track item where you have got impeachment going on for part of the time and doing other business, like confirming the cabinet, I think those are high. Because I think people don't want the new administration to be delayed, particularly when you are looking at Department of Homeland Security or secretary of defense or the other national security pieces.

[10:30:01]

So, just as a procedural matter, I think that would be the preference, my guess, is of most senators, and that would be a bipartisan sentiment.

SCIUTTO: Interesting.