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A Nation On Edge For This Week's Transfer Of Power; Around 25,000 National Guard Troops To Patrol Washington This Week; FBI Warns Of Armed Protests At Capitol And In All 50 States; State Capitals Tighten Security Amid Threat Of Armed Protests; Trump Expected To Issue Flurry Of Pardons In Final Days Of Term; Kamala Harris To Make History As First Woman Vice President. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired January 17, 2021 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:00:00]
ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Thanks for staying with me. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.
And today, we have been seeing surreal scenes of lockdown in America, but it's not due to the pandemic. These are security lockdowns in cities nationwide to prevent violence around an event Americans normally take for granted, the transfer of power from one president to the next. Washington in particular has been transformed into a fortress with roving troops, barbed wire ahead of Joe Biden's inauguration on Wednesday.
And tonight, we have shocking new video from inside the Capitol siege that provides a glimpse into the Trump-inspired movement that has the nation on high alert. This video is shot by journalist at The New Yorker. And I have to warn you, it is disturbing and we have not censored the language.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're outnumbered. There's a fucking million of us out there. And we listening to Trump, your boss.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let the people in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It ain't safe for your guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We love you guys. Take it easy.
PROTESTERS: Treason. Treason. Treason. Treason. Treason. Treason. Treason. Treason. Treason. Treason. Treason. Treason. Treason. Treason.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defend your constitution, defend your liberty. Defend your constitution.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 1776.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're afraid of Antifa? Well, guess what? America showed up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is the rest? (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this the Senate?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, where the fuck are they?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While we're here, we might as well set up a government.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, let's take a seat, people. Let's take a listen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- Nancy Pelosi.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's vote on some shit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where the fuck is Nancy? This is our House.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, this is our chair.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I agree with you, brother, but it's not ours. It belongs to the vice president of the United States but he isn't here. It's not our chair. Look, I love you guys, we're brothers, but we can't be disrespectful.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They can steal an election, but we can't sit in their chairs?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. We're not putting up with that either. It's just -- look, it's a P.R. war, okay? You have to understand it's an I.O. war. We can't lose the I.O. war.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're better than that, okay? Information, information operation. You can't do it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's get a snap of that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go downstairs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look here, look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ted Cruz's objection to the Arizona --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- objection, he was going to sell us out all along.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really, what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection to counting electoral votes of the state of Arizona.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know, that's --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know, that's okay. All right, all right --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's with us. He's with us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's got to be something in here we can fucking use against these scumbags.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: America's republic -- no, this is good stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, we have been fooled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hawley, Cruz.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Cruz would want to do this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, absolutely.
[18:05:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey. Fucking hey, man. Glad to see you guys. You guys are fucking patriots. Look at this guy, this guy is covered in blood. God bless you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you guys need medical attention?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm okay, thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got shot in the face. I got shot in the face with some kind of plastic bullet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any chance I can get you guys to leave the Senate wing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will. I'm just making sure they ain't disrespecting the place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. I just want to let you guys know this is like the sacredest place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. I'm going to take a -- sit at this chair because (INAUDIBLE) fucking chair. I'm not one to usually take pictures of myself, but in this case I think I'll make an exception.
Hey, can you take a picture of me? Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we ain't got a choice. There's a half a million people here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You should be stopping us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no. He's doing the right thing. He's obeying his oath. I'm making sure you guys don't do anything else. Now that you've done that, can I get you guys to walk out of this room, please?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel like you're pushing the line.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, man. Come on man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is our Capitol. Let's be respectful to it. There's 4 million people coming in, so there's a lot of control. We love you guys. We love the cops.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's only a matter of time, justice is coming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over four million people are coming, everywhere, all the way back to the monument, D.C.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CABRERA: That insurrection ultimately left five people dead and led to President Trump's second impeachment for inciting an insurrection.
CNN's Alex Marquardt and Shimon Prokupecz join us now from D.C. Alex, to you first. What are you seeing and seeing near the Capitol, and you're getting information about an arrest tied to the Capitol riot?
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: We are, Ana. We have just heard from the FBI that they made an arrest here in Washington, D.C. of a New Mexico man. His name is Coy Griffin. He was involved with the insurrection at the Capitol on January 6th. It's unclear right now what his role in that was, but he was picked up just north of the Capitol, not far from where we are right now by the FBI earlier today.
Now, this is a city that is essentially in lockdown, certainly in this part of D.C. around the federal buildings, extraordinarily high security, people have described it as a war zone. The streets are empty. There are checkpoints all over the place. And many of the streets in downtown D.C. have been blocked off by law enforcement.
I want to show you some of the security, this incredible fortress, as you said, that has been built around the Capitol complex. We are just on the eastern side of the Capitol. You've got this 8-foot non- scalable fencing with razor wiring along the top. This is around the entire Capitol complex as well as much of Washington, D.C., including down by the mall, which is traditionally where tens of thousands of people would gather for an inauguration, for a celebration of a new president. That will not happen this year.
And they have been asking people, the city, the Biden transition team, asking people to stay home and watch this virtually. There are thousands of National Guard troops on the streets of D.C. 17,000 is the latest number that we've gotten, but up to 25,000 may be mobilized by the Pentagon for the inauguration of Joe Biden. You can see some of those troops right here just by the Capitol. They've been joined by some members of the Supreme Court police. And that just speaks to this patchwork of law enforcement that are collaborating for this security operation.
Because of how big the security operation is, Ana, the mayor of Washington, D.C. earlier today was saying that that may mean that people who would want to cause violence may go elsewhere, they may go elsewhere in the city of Washington. They may go to other state capitols. But they are confident for now that things will -- that this will be a secure event.
The acting police chief for Washington, D.C. has said that all hands are on deck. So they are preparing for the worst but certainly hoping for the best, Ana.
CABRERA: Alex, stand by. And before we go to other state capitols, as you've referenced there, let me turn to Shimon, because, Shimon, we know there are so many agencies working together right now in D.C. Alex called it a patchwork of agencies, the Pentagon, have Metro police, Capitol police, the FBI. And I know there are additional agencies involved. So what can you tell us about this huge effort and the coordination that's going on?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: So they've been coordinating almost since January 6th after the insurrection, and, of course, in preparation also of the inauguration, there's been a massive coordination between Secret Service and other agencies.
Secret Service is in charge of the security because this is deemed as a Secret Service event, a national security event.
[18:10:01]
They have taken charge of this. But as we see by that arrest that Alex mentioned there of that man from New Mexico, you have the Capitol police arresting the person, and then the FBI taking him into custody. So you're seeing their evidence of that coordination.
The other thing that's really what's going on, it's really nationwide, Ana, that there is coordination, because all across the country, there is concern that people wanting to cause problems will come here. And so FBI offices all across the country, every field office, is working with people here on the ground feeding intelligence.
There is also a massive surveillance operation countrywide that is underway by the FBI, by the joint terrorism task force, which would include all of the local police departments that are part of that program. And so what they are doing is they are knocking on doors. They are watching people who they feel will want to do some kind of harm, people who would want to come here trying to warn them that, hey, if you leave your house, if you try to come to Washington, D.C. or go to another state capitol, we're going to know and we're watching you.
So that is all underway all across the country. A lot of that information is being filtered to officials here who are working to try and prevent a lot of these people from coming here, and also just making sure that they're on top of the latest intelligence, social media, other information.
There is a lot of chatter, and you can almost count that that chatter is not going away. So intelligence officials here on the ground working with everybody from the D.C. police to the ATF to the U.S. marshals all working together to try and prevent anything from happening here.
CABRERA: Giant investigation, giant security effort underway. Shimon Prokupecz, Alex Marquardt, my thanks to both of you.
The Capitol siege and the continued threats fueled partially by misinformation, conspiracy theories and extremism that has spread all across the country, again, not just there in D.C.
I want to go now CNN's Josh Campbell who joins us from Lansing, Michigan. And, Josh, state capitols all across the nation are on lockdown right now following the warnings from the FBI about potential violence. What are you seeing there?
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, let me just show you behind us here. You can see these buses, these are from the National Guard. They have been out here all day long and a massive presence outside the state capitol, that following that FBI warning about potential armed protests in 50 states -- and, ma'am, could you give us a second, thank you -- in all 50 states.
But we didn't see any violence today. In fact, we didn't actually see a large presence here much at all, nevertheless you did have police out here. You can still see some of the Michigan state police officers coming in from around the state.
Now let me just tell you real quickly about what one of these police officers told us, and that is that there are many different theories for why -- okay, there are obviously some belligerent protesters out here as well, but they're telling us that the reason why they probably didn't have that threat today is because there were a number of folks out here, law enforcement security officials, it's that presence that could have served as a deterrent, Ana.
CABRERA: Okay, Josh Campbell, you did a good job there. I know how distracting it is when you have people bugging you like that being disrespectful. But thanks for giving us the scene there in Michigan. I'm glad to hear things are staying peaceful at the moment.
This is the last weekend of Trump's term. In the final weeks of his presidency, a second impeachment, incitement of an insurrection at the nation's Capitol, the nation will still be in a crisis even after Trump leaves office on Wednesday. So what happens next? We'll discuss live in the CNN NEWSROOM. Stay right there.
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[18:15:00] CABRERA: We are witnessing America like we have never seen her before. America, like our founders never meant for us to see her. Right now tens of thousands of U.S. troops are deployed across the nation guarding state capitols not from any outside threat to the country necessarily but instead from attacks from within.
I want to play more of this stunning video from The New Yorker. It was filmed by a journalist during the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol. And, again, we must warn you, contains graphic language.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Easy, easy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fuck you police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go, go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whose House?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CABRERA: People crawling through broken windows, climbing up scaffolding, it's something you would expect to see in a dystopian zombie film, all this because the president sent congressional Republicans and some right-wing media convinced people without any actual evidence that the election was stolen from them. But don't solely rely on my word for it. Take theirs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look here, look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ted Cruz's objection to Arizona.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) objection, he is going to sell us out all along. Look, objection to counting electoral votes on the state of Arizona.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know, that's --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know, that's okay. All right, all right --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's with us. He's with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CABRERA: Rioters saying a Republican Senator Ted Cruz there of Texas, quote, he's with us, he is with us.
You need to see this too. Sobering new CNN poll finding that among Republicans, 75 percent do not believe Joe Biden legitimately won enough votes to win the presidency. Only 19 percent believe it was legitimate. Again, there is zero proof to support this thinking, just the word of Republican leaders.
[18:20:02]
Joining us now CNN Senior Political Analyst and former adviser to four presidents, David Gergen, and CNN Global Affairs Analyst and Staff Writer for The New Yorker, Susan Glasser.
Susan, what we just heard and what your colleague provided all of us and what we saw in this video is not normal. We didn't bleep any of the language because we thought it was important to show an unfiltered look at what took place. So I just want to start by getting both of your reactions to it. Susan, you first.
SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, thank you so much. I mean, my colleague, Luke Mogelson, from The New Yorker did, I think, an important public service risking his own life, I actually point out, to report from among the insurrectionists. And he has written an incredible piece, as well as filmed this video that you can watch.
And, to me, I'm glad you played this clip from Ted Cruz that -- with the rioters talking about Ted Cruz and how he's with us, because the nexus between politicians who lied and who continued to lie, and, by the way, who continue to lie about the election even after this horrible scene, and the nexus between them and those people, why were they there?
They were there because of people like Ted Cruz and Donald Trump who lied to them, who continued to lie even as it was happening and said there was some way for Mike Pence to overturn the election, there was not, who said that there was some question about the legitimacy of the Electoral College, there was not. And it's just this terrible physical example of the consequences of political lies.
And we've been living for four years in an alternate universe of Donald Trump's lies and misinformation. He's activated people with guns who are willing to destroy even our democracy.
CABRERA: And let me remind our viewers, President Trump still continues this lie. He has not taken it back. He has not said the idea of this election being rigged is just -- it's bogus, it's not true.
David, what's your reaction to the video?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I'm so glad you showed it. And thank you for having The New Yorker -- you're right, the person who's taking those pictures was at risk. My reaction is, listen, had it not, there would have been no protest, there would have been no storming of the Capitol. Were it not for Donald Trump for a long time leading a crusade to lie to the American people about what happened at the election. And as you just showed in that poll, 75 percent of the Republicans, against all evidence, again, after all the courtroom proceedings, still believe that Joe Biden is not a legitimate president.
The responsibility for this is squarely on the president's footstep, just right in front of him, he's standing on it. The blood is on his hands, because if he had only told the truth, we could have healed and we could have gotten through this peacefully. And now here is where we are.
So I think it was really, really important to have those films so all the American people can have a chance to make their own judgments about which side they respect.
CABRERA: I was just thinking of the saying, the truth will set you free. And, sadly, it's the truth that hasn't gotten out enough and has led to death and destruction. Susan, there is still this element of Trump's circle that continues to lie and mislead and defend the president. We heard from his campaign spokesman, Hogan Gidley, today on Fox News claiming President Trump can't denounce the Capitol attack more because he doesn't have a platform, however, did presidents managed to communicate with the American people before the invention of Twitter?
GLASSER: Well, look, there is always this element of, you know, the alternate reality that Trump and his slavish supporters who are apparently going with him down to the dead end of history.
But I think David's point is an extremely important one here. What haven't you heard from the Republican Party leadership from top to bottom is mea culpas, saying they're sorry and saying over and over and over again to their voters, it's not true, Joe Biden is the rightfully elected and legitimate president of this country. If they really expressed regret about this, then that's what you would have heard from them.
But instead, you had 197 House Republicans who voted against Trump's impeachment on the charge of inciting this riot. Kevin McCarthy, the House Republican leader, he voted against it. He said, well, Biden is the legitimate president, maybe we should censure, Trump has not offered his own censure resolution or done anything to make sure that his conference repeats this over and over again.
So, again, what you have is a situation here where Republican Party has basically -- both its leadership and its followership has gone down the road of a big lie.
[18:25:01]
And, of course, that is an enormously fraught situation as we head into the inauguration of the new president this week.
CABRERA: David, there's still an open question as to whether President Trump will leave a letter for Joe Biden in the resolute desk, which has become a tradition for outgoing presidents. I recall in his letter to Trump, President Obama wrote something that is really quite crushing (ph), I quote, regardless of the push and pull of daily politics, it's up to us to leave those instruments of our democracy at least as strong as we found them.
What would Trump even say in a letter to Biden?
GERGEN: He's not going to send a letter. He's not going to do anything. It would be polite. He's demanding a parade. He wants a 21- gun salute. He's in no mood to be contrite or take any responsibility. And he walks out of this job which he long ago stopped governing. But he walks away with a reputation that is sealed now, that of one of the worst presidents of the United States' history and certainly the most dangerous.
I do think there is good news in that CNN poll today, Ana, and that is that 75 percent of Americans basically believe that the Republican Party ought to move on beyond Donald Trump and essentially walk away from him as their leader. That would be a really, really healthy thing for our politics if the Republicans actually have that gumption. As it is now, I think the people who were in charge of the Republican Party, those 95 percent of the House members who voted against the impeachment, 95 percent voted against. But the American public has signaled they want a new type of politics from the Republican Party.
CABRERA: Susan, as we look ahead to Wednesday, Joe Biden will be a crisis president from day one, an impeachment looming, a struggling economy, raging pandemic, and on top of it all, he has to take the oath of office in a city that looks like a war zone. How important will his inaugural address be on Wednesday?
GLASSER: Well, you know, it's really interesting that Biden had already -- even before the attack on the Capitol by Trump supporters, Biden had already designated the team of the inauguration to be America united. And I think and imagine that that is exactly the kind of address that Biden is going to give, a stark contrast obviously to the American carnage speech of Donald Trump four years ago, which certainly seems like it was a self-fulfilling prophecy from the vantage point of four years later.
But, look, 400,000 Americans will be dead by the time Joe Biden gives this address, 400,000 Americans dead in the pandemic. And his new chief of staff warned that that could be up to 500,000 later this winter. This is a tragedy of generational proportions even if Donald Trump hadn't unleashed a violent mob upon the Capitol.
And I think the relentless focus from the Biden administration is going to be in the first days on the pandemic, getting it under control, and actually having a national plan, what we've learned about the mishandling of the vaccine rollout just in the months since the election would, in and of itself, be grounds for absolute malfeasance and indictment of any other administration because Americans are actually dying as a result of it.
CABRERA: It's all so horrific. Susan Glasser and David Gergen, thank you for being there, for being our experts and having such depth of information to share with us throughout the last four years of the Trump presidency. And as we look forward to covering the next administration, I look forward to having you as my wingmen and women as well to go through with it. I appreciate it.
GERGEN: Thank you.
CABRERA: Cities are on high alert tonight as there are threats of violence all across the U.S. We will take you live to the west coast to see how they're preparing, next.
But, first, here is Christine Romans with this week's Before the Bell.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Ana. Investors are looking ahead to Joe Biden's inauguration this week. And markets are in a holding pattern, really, as the Trump impeachment drama unfolds in Washington. Some investors are concerned the looming trial in the Senate could hurt lawmakers' ability to focus on Joe Biden's economic agenda. Biden's COVID relief plan unveiled last week includes $1,400 stimulus checks, enhanced unemployment benefits, rental assistance and state and government aid.
The need for more help is growing clearer by the day. 965,000 people filed for the first time for unemployment benefits in the latest week. That was much worse than expected, and a big jump from the previous week.
This week, Ana, investors also turned their attentions to corporate earnings. Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Netflix and United Airlines are among the companies reporting results. Overall, fourth quarter profit for S&P 500 companies expected to be down nearly 9 percent. Analysts expect profit growth to return this quarter, and that could help power the market's next leg higher.
[18:30:01]
In New York, I'm Christine Romans.
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CABRERA: This is not normal. The security measures we are seeing at the nation's Capitol Building and at state capitols all across the country are unprecedented. But, unfortunately, necessary ahead of Wednesday's inauguration.
CNN's Dan Simon is in Salem, Oregon, keeping a close eye on the security measures in place there.
[18:35:03]
Dan, what are you seeing?
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hi, Ana. It is remarkably peaceful here. You can see what things look like behind me. It sort of tells you the story, not a soul behind me. You can see the boarded up windows here at the Capitol here in Salem. Simply a precautionary move. Really there's been nothing to speak of.
Earlier today we did see some armed libertarians. They were neither pro-Trump nor pro-Biden. Simply here to make their presence known but they're gone now. Same thing really in Portland which of course is worrisome because there's been so much protesting there over the last few months involving Antifa and other groups. But things there are also remarkably calm. The FBI has a command post there set up just in case things do get out of control.
There have been some members of Antifa outside of a bookstore in recent days protesting the publication and sale of a book that is critical of them. So authorities there are keeping a close eye on that situation. But so far really nothing to speak of here in Oregon -- Ana.
CABRERA: OK. One (INAUDIBLE) own fight, as they say. Dan Simon, thank you.
President Trump leaves office in three days, just three days. One big question left about the actions he could take still is who will he pardon in his final days. And now we have more reporting that's pointing to a lucrative pardon market. That's next.
You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:40:29]
CABRERA: President Trump has just a few more days left in the White House. And the "New York Times" is reporting this weekend that some of the president's allies are seeing money to be made in that remaining time.
Let me bring in CNN legal analyst, former federal and state prosecutor Elie Honig.
And Elie, we're talking about the price that some people are willing to pay for a presidential pardon. Who is reportedly making money doing this? And if true, it's got to be unethical. But is it illegal?
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Ana, look, if I'm back in my prosecutor days, I'd have a team of FBI agents ready to go. I'd have a stack of subpoenas on my desk ready to go out because there are red flags all over the place in this reporting.
People need to understand, the pardon power is broad, but it is not a free for all. And if a pardon is exchanged for cash, for a promise, for anything of value, that absolutely can be criminal bribery. And there's precedent here. My old office, the Southern District in New York, back in 2001 opened a criminal investigation into Bill Clinton's pardon of a billionaire financier fugitive named Marc Rich. Now that did not result in criminal prosecutions, but prosecutors absolutely need to dig in here and ask some hard questions.
CABRERA: How does the prospect of an impending impeachment trial play here?
HONIG: Well, it should tamp down any pardons, but we've seen how Donald Trump has sort of acted throughout his term. Look, the framers of the Constitution were clear that the remedy for an abuse of the pardon power was impeachment. Now, if the president goes on a pardon bonanza in the next three days, theoretically the House of Representatives could add a second Article of Impeachment to the one we already have for insurrection.
But even if they don't do that, if the president abuses the pardon power between now and Wednesday, that's going to play on the minds of the senators who are going to vote at this impeachment trial. I think it's going to be a close vote. There clearly are several senators who are on the fence. And I think an abuse of the pardon power really could push them one way or the other.
CABRERA: To be clear, though, does the president lose any of his pardon power because he's been impeached?
HONIG: We get that question all the time from our viewers, Ana. So the answer is no. He does not lose any of his pardon power. There is -- the problem is there is a confusing clause in the Constitution that says the president shall have the pardon power except in cases of impeachment. But that does not mean that an impeached president loses his pardon power. That means that a president cannot pardon an official from being impeached. In other words, the president cannot un-impeach somebody.
Again, there's precedent here. All three presidents who have been impeached before -- Andrew Jackson, Bill Clinton, Donald Trump the first time -- have all issued pardons after their impeachment. Bill Clinton actually issued pardons during his impeachment after he had been impeached by the House but before he had been tried by the Senate.
So everyone needs to understand, until 12:00 noon on Wednesday Donald Trump still has that pardon power.
CABRERA: We know some of the Capitol rioters, these attackers have already appealed to the president for a pardon. We also have heard the president's been speaking with Steve Bannon, his old, you know, chief strategist who is also facing federal charges right now. What do you expect to see over the next few days in terms of potential pardons from Trump?
HONIG: I expect to see the worst. I expect this to be an abyss of corruption. I expect the president to dole out pardons to wealthy, well-connected people, who have access to his political allies, potentially to his friends, potentially, Ana, even to himself. And it's important to note, pardons are not inherently evil. They're there to be used as a tool of justice and mercy and fairness. But given the president's track record so far with pardons, I don't expect to see that.
CABRERA: We keep getting this question from viewers. Would a self- pardon be legal, and how could it be challenged if the president were to attempt it?
HONIG: So the answer is we don't know for sure. The Constitution does not forbid it. But if you look at the framers and what they intended, they hated the idea of self-dealing. And this would really be ultimate self-dealing.
The Justice Department looked at the issue back in the '70s and concluded that a self-pardon would not be valid. Now if the president does pardon himself, there's really only one legal way it could be challenged. That would be a federal indictment. The way it would play out, DOJ would charge the president with a crime. The president would then say, but you can't charge me because I've pardoned myself.
Then the issue would end up in the federal courts, I think ultimately up to the Supreme Court. But, again, we could have another unprecedented issue going up through the courts because of President Trump.
CABRERA: Everything's unprecedented with Trump, as we have learned over the past several years.
HONIG: Sure.
CABRERA: What do you make of Rudy Giuliani's involvement in this?
HONIG: Well, boy, Rudy's right in the muck, as always. The number one fact or detail in the "New York Times" story that jumped out at me was that Rudy reportedly insisted on $2 million as a payment in order to get a pardon.
[18:45:06]
I mean, let me tell you, there is no way that legitimate legal fees for this kind of thing would cost $2 million. So if I'm a prosecutor, I'm asking, what is that number based on? What is Rudy promising people? What are people understanding he's going to deliver?
The other thing that's so complicated here is Rudy is apparently lobbying for clients. But he's also in line for a pardon himself because we know the SDNY which Rudy used to run well before I was there is investigating Rudy reportedly for criminal actions. So at the same time he may be lobbying for his clients, he also is lined up for a pardon.
And if the president pardons Rudy Giuliani, it will be ultimate corruption for so many reasons. It would be, other than a self-pardon, I think the most corrupt use of the pardon power.
CABRERA: Elie Honig, as always, good stuff, thank you.
HONIG: Thanks, Ana.
CABRERA: Quick programming note. Join CNN for all-day live coverage of the inauguration of President Joe Biden, history-making event in unprecedented times. Special all-day live coverage Wednesday on CNN. We'll be right back.
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[18:50:33]
CABRERA: Vice President-elect Kamala Harris now only three days away from taking her historic oath of office. Harris will be the nation's first female vice president, also the first woman of color in the role.
CNN's Abby Philip recently sat down with Harris and her husband Doug Emhoff in an interview airing tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, CNN's Special Report, "KAMALA HARRIS, MAKING HISTORY." Here's a preview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am suspending our campaign today.
Making a decision to get out of a race is probably as difficult as making a decision to get into a race.
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): Kamala Harris is a glass ceiling breaker, name taker, history maker. If somebody like her could not make it that far what does it say about our country with somebody with that qualifications?
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): But of her qualifications like her career as a prosecutor became a source of criticism from both sides of the aisle.
(On camera): Do you feel like you were misunderstood?
HARRIS: There are a lot of nuances in what it means to be a prosecutor especially in this moment that is I think long overdue where America's coming to a reckoning on a lot of issues that deal with racial injustice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CABRERA: CNN's Abby Phillip is joining us now.
Abby, it really looks like a good, in-depth, meaty conversation and special and enlightening all of us to the work you did. What did you learn? What stands out most about, you know, Kamala Harris and how she might approach her groundbreaking role now as vice president?
PHILLIP: Well, Ana, I think in so many ways for Kamala Harris this would not be the first time that she has broken new ground. And I think that that's really what informs her coming into this role as the first black woman, first South Asian-American woman to hold this position, the first woman to hold this position. She's done this a number of times when she was D.A. of San Francisco, she was a first then, when she was attorney general of California, she was the first then as well.
And so I think she brings that experience, kind of walking into these rooms as someone who looks different from a lot of people who are around her, from everyone who's inhabited that position before.
And you'll see in the documentary, so we spend some time on her early childhood talking about her upbringing in Berkeley and the kind of activism that she was surrounded by, her parents who met protesting in Berkeley, and kind of how that informed her understanding of history and her understanding of this country, and especially on issues of race and on issues of justice.
You know, Ana, this is a really tumultuous time for the country especially when we're talking about race and justice and what it means to have justice in our criminal justice system. And I think she is poised to use her experience as a prosecutor to inform some of those conversations.
She's had a lot of criticism on the left for some of her decisions, some utter praise on the left versus other decisions so I think she'll be navigating some ground but also breaking some new ground because when you're vice president you're setting the agenda in a completely different way.
You're not just enforcing the law, you are helping sort of set the agenda for what the law should be and how it should be carried out, and I think that's a very different role for her.
CABRERA: You also spoke to her husband Doug Emhoff who's going to be groundbreaking as well as the first -- first gentleman or second gentleman in this case. What did you get as far as insights into their relationship and how he may approach his role?
PHILLIP: Well, I have to tell you this is the part of the interview that I think people are really, really going to enjoy. The two of them sitting on a couch recounting their love story, how they met, how they navigated a kind of late-in-life romance. She was well into her career, he had already been married, had two children from a previous marriage. And how they navigated that. It was very sweet to see them reflecting on that.
You have to remember, Ana, these two have not been married very long, just, you know, six years or so. And the two of them are kind of having this incredible change happening for the whole world to see. But I think what is great I think about their story in so many ways is that it is a lot of -- it is also the story of a lot of Americans. A blended family, multiracial, multi-religion family in which she sort of became a part of Doug's family that he had with his ex-wife and his two children.
[18:55:13]
She's referred to as Mamala by her two stepchildren. And it's a great story about I think a little unconventional way of finding love. I think some people will have some strong feelings about how Doug made the first move or made one of the first moves in their relationship. It's a really, really fun watch.
CABRERA: I love the clip that I saw in which he talked about how he sent her a day after their first date like his schedule for the next four months or something saying, I'm done with the games, let's just see if this can work.
Abby Phillip, thank you --
PHILLIP: So many people have had so many thoughts about that. So it'll be a fun watch today. Thanks, Ana.
CABRERA: I know I know. I'm a sucker for a good love story so that really stood out to me. I appreciate it.
Make sure to tune in tonight. The CNN Special Report, "KAMALA HARRIS: MAKING HISTORY." It airs 10:00 Eastern here on CNN.
That does it for me. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Thank you so much for spending part of your weekend with me. And Wolf Blitzer picks up CNN's coverage in a special edition of "THE SITUATION ROOM" after a quick break.
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