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U.S. Bracing For Violence As FBI Warns Of Armed Protests; Security Very High At U.S. Capitol Days From Biden Inauguration; Biden To Sign Executive Orders On First Day; Interview With Rep. Lou Correa (D-CA), Warning Impeachment Could Incite Violence; Trump Considering Pardons For Himself And His Family; U.S. Politics Under Global Scrutiny; China Contrasts Its COVID-19 Response To U.S.'; Rise Of Far Right Extremist Groups During Capitol Attack; Parallels Between Charlottesville And Capitol Riots. Aired 12-1a ET
Aired January 17, 2021 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, welcome to viewers in the United States and around the world. Tonight, I'm Poppy Harlow in New York, it is midnight on the East Coast of the U.S., 9 o'clock out west. I'm so glad you are with us.
Authorities across the U.S. tonight, on high alert, warning of further domestic threats against the government. This is all ahead of Joe Biden's inauguration.
The FBI says there could be, quote, "armed protests" in Washington and all 50 state capitals this week. They are very concerned about domestic extremists, who refuse to recognize Biden's election victory.
Some state capitals have been boarded up; others, temporarily closed. In Washington, the U.S. Capitol tonight is a fortress. It is surrounded by barbed wire fences and guarded by thousands of National Guard troops and law enforcement officers. Shimon Prokupecz reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Roadblocks like this, all across Washington, D.C., the National Guard, now patrolling almost every intersection across the district.
This is a checkpoint, one of the areas where, sometimes, cars will come through. The National Guard will ask for credentials, in order to come through. This is blocks from the Capitol.
The perimeter across the Capitol, across Washington, D.C., is wide. Every iconic structure, from the White House to all of the monuments, the National Mall, all fenced in. Everything around there has fences.
Authorities, here very concerned over the threat that the district faces and also, the threat that much of the country is facing -- Shimon Prokupecz, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Joining me now, Charles Ramsey, CNN law enforcement analyst, formerly the police chief of Washington, D.C., and the former police commissioner of Philadelphia.
Your insight is invaluable tonight, Commissioner. Thank you for being with me.
CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Thank you.
HARLOW: Can you talk about what it's like to lead in a moment like this?
RAMSEY: It is nerve-wracking but it is exciting. Whenever you have a major event take place -- and of course, I was part of the planning for two presidential inaugurations -- but nothing like this however.
I remember, in 2000, because of the Bush-Gore election being so controversial, knowing we had protesters lining Pennsylvania Avenue, it was a challenge. Again, it is nothing like what you are seeing today.
HARLOW: You're right, just unprecedented on so many levels.
We have learned a lot since the deadly insurrection on the Capitol, including "The Washington Post," reporting yesterday that, before that attack, there was an internal Capitol police intelligence report that warned that this angry mob could even target the Capitol itself.
Then a day before the insurrection the FBI outpost in Virginia, warning about extremists coming to Washington. I know hindsight is 20- 20 but I guess, what I wonder from you, is how do those things we have learned about areas where there was a collapse in response, how do they inform what they are planning now?
RAMSEY: First of, all there was multiple points of failure on the 6th of January and the days leading up to the 6th of January. That is clear. The only way we will get a complete picture of who knew what when is if there is a commission or a body that is established that will go through everything that they can possibly go through, documents, interviews, so forth.
I would recommend it to be a body to put people under oath in order to find out exactly what happened, so it cannot be repeated. Normally, intelligence sharing is something that is key. Really, I was shocked and surprised that it didn't happen, apparently, in this instance. There were too many gaps. I've been part of these conversations.
[00:05:00]
RAMSEY: And the intel freeze (sic) -- flows pretty freely between the different agencies. So everyone is prepared and knows what to expect.
HARLOW: It seems like one of the most challenging parts of this for law enforcement officers, and National Guard is a lot of these folks are first-timers. Those who charged the Capitol were not known criminals or foreign terrorists or on watchlists. They were supporters of the president who believed his lies.
How do you prepare for that?
If they are not posting on social media, how do you protect against a deranged, disgruntled voter, who, otherwise, has a clean record?
RAMSEY: It is a challenge, no question about that. Some of the people who showed up were just there to peacefully demonstrate, exercise their First Amendment. But then there were others who came there with intent of causing violence. Even trying to overrun the Capitol, which they were successful in doing.
So you have a mix of people here. There is no one group, no one ideology. It is very complicated and it just poses a huge challenge for law enforcement.
Some of these things you can pick up on chatter online, social media, so forth. But then you have the lone wolf, the individuals who are there on their own and are not part of any group or particular ideology. They are just there to cause problems.
So, yes, it is a huge challenge and it will not go away on January 20th.
HARLOW: No question.
What do you think people are not talking about enough, that they should be now, on the security front in the next 72 hours?
RAMSEY: What they ought to be doing now is, clearly, sharing information. I think -- and at, least I hope we learned our lesson after January 6th. Intelligence is only good if it is shared so it can become actionable, so that you can do something with the information. It does no good for the Capitol police to hoard information and not share it.
Same with the FBI. The right people need to know exactly what is going on, so you can plan for it. Obviously, that did not happen a couple of weeks ago.
HARLOW: Commissioner Ramsey, thank you so much for staying up late and for being with us tonight. A very important week ahead.
RAMSEY: Thank you.
HARLOW: With the nation on high alert, President Trump has so far spent the weekend in the side of the White House, no public events listed on the schedule but the vice president, Mike Pence, has been quite busy filling that public void on Saturday.
He delivered remarks to sailors in California, touted the Trump administration's national security platform and then, tomorrow, he will address troops at Fort Drum on Saturday.
President-Elect Joe Biden announced more key nominees, introduced four members of his White House science team. We're also learning more about his plans to immediately issue executive orders to roll back some of President Trump's policies. Arlette Saenz has the details from Wilmington, Delaware.
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ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: President-Elect Joe Biden is readying dozens of executive actions to sign, once he takes office on January 20th. Many of these executive actions he outlined during his presidential campaign.
And on the first day alone, he plans to sign roughly a dozen executive actions. Some of them undoing policies from the Trump administration. One of those executive actions he will sign will rescind the travel ban on travelers from majority Muslim countries. That is something that President Trump unveiled early on in his administration that Biden plans to undo.
The president-elect is also planning to rejoin the Paris climate agreement, something that was negotiated during the Obama-Biden years but President Trump pulled out of.
There are also some items relating to the pandemic. Biden will be halting foreclosures on evictions, something that is happening right now, as well as keeping that pause on payments for student loans and interest.
The president-elect will also be issuing what they are calling a 100- day masking challenge, trying to get people all across the country to wear masks. While Biden doesn't have the authority to mandate masks everywhere, he can do it in federal buildings and interstate travel.
These executive actions, rolled out over the coming weeks, are also joining his legislative priorities. He will be sending an immigration bill to Congress in his first 100 days and he is also unveiling a $1.9 trillion COVID stimulus relief package, something he is hoping that Congress can get to right away.
What the president-elect is making clear with these executive accidents is that he's looking to hit the ground running on January 20th.
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SAENZ: Arlette Saenz, CNN, Wilmington, Delaware.
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HARLOW: Arlette, thank you for that reporting.
Joining me now is Democratic representatives Lou Correa from the state of California, a member of the House Judiciary Committee and The Homeland Security Committee.
Good evening or good morning here in New York.
REP. LOU CORREA (D-CA): Good morning, good evening. Thank you for having me.
HARLOW: I'm all right but how are you?
We just learned today that you tested positive for COVID-19. This is even after you got your first COVID vaccine shot.
Are you doing OK?
CORREA: Well, let me tell you that we left 2020, say good riddance, I know 2021 is going to be much better. Wednesday, I was part of the folks being prepped in the Capitol. Thursday morning, I got accosted by Trump supporters at the airport. And then two days later I found out I'm COVID-19 positive.
So we're off to a rolling 2021 --
HARLOW: Should we restart?
(CROSSTALK)
CORREA: -- I think it could've all been worse. Look at the glass half full, because that attack on the Capitol was sad because it was Americans on Americans. That is a sad testament to our history.
Yet at the same time it could've been so much worse. Those guards at the Capitol have M-16 rifles with a lot of bullets. We could have easily had a massacre of Americans and I'm glad that that did not happen, I think it's a sad chapter but it could've been a lot worse.
And, of course, my COVID-19 situation, I was lucky to have a vaccination early. The Pfizer vaccine and the second booster and so now, I have COVID because I'm getting tested regularly. But otherwise I don't have any symptoms.
HARLOW: OK, good, let's hope it stays that way. You mentioned the airport and Thursday after you were up all night certifying the election, trying to go home, you get accosted at the airport. For anyone who hasn't seen that video, let's roll it so they can see what happened in that video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW (voice-over): Not only did you get stopped and heckled but listen for a moment where people were saying to you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who voted for you?
CORREA: A lot of people, 70 percent of people in my district.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Good for you. You didn't back away. You said a lot of people voted for me.
But the fact that that happened, it went on for a long time. The fact that that happened in America and I just wonder what it tells you about where the country is now.
CORREA: It tells us what we have known for a while, is that this country is deeply divided. We are split right down the middle; 70 million people voted for President Trump and many more voted for Biden.
But it is time to put that division aside and work together. If there is a silver lining to what happened at the Capitol that Wednesday night when we were counting the Electoral College ballots, it's that Democrats and Republicans that were trapped in that House of Representatives.
We looked at each other and, said enough is enough. We've got to work together. That is just the start, because President Biden, the members of Congress working together, that message has to penetrate all the way down to the local person on Main Street, who knows that we have their backs.
That's the big job we have moving forward. Those people at the airport that attacked me, I don't even know what their issues are and, even sadder than that, they didn't even know who I was.
One of them asked me, are you a Democrat or a Republican?
(CROSSTALK)
CORREA: That tells me that there is a lot of anger there and God knows why.
HARLOW: Can I ask what you think, not only do we need unity and healing in the country but you guys need it in Congress. And we rely on you to have it, to get things done and to do the work of the country. Seven House members from your state, from California, even after the deadly insurrection on the Capitol, still voted against certifying the election results, even after that mob stormed the Capitol.
I just wonder what you think should happen to them, censure, expulsion or just let the voters decide.
CORREA: I think you let the voters decide because they are accountable to their voters. I am accountable to my voters. With that having been said, four years ago when we were certifying President Trump I was there and I voted for that certification, because I believe in our Constitution and our rule of law.
[00:15:00]
CORREA: And when I look at what happened on Wednesday, a lot of that was motivated by President Trump. He was out there in the Capitol, saying we've got to fight, we can't let them do this, we can't let them rule us over.
His message of getting people angry and having them go and storm the Capitol, I think that was a lot of the problem. And I'm hoping moving forward, that now with President Trump kind of taking a side position -- I don't think he's going anywhere, I think he's going to continue to be there as a voice.
But we in Congress begin to focus. I am proud to say that I am a member of a couple of groups in Congress. We are Democrats and Republicans, members of Congress and senators all working together, try to understand each other and to advance good policy for all Americans.
And that's what we have to do, is remember that we are Americans and we are stronger together than we are divided.
HARLOW: We are the United States of America.
CORREA: The United States of America and we've been like this for a long time and we have done some beautiful things in the world. We are a great country, strong economy, a lot of freedoms, a great, we've got to remember what we have.
(CROSSTALK)
HARLOW: If you can keep it, a smart man said that once.
CORREA: A republic if you can keep it. And I think Wednesday night we came very close to losing it because when you have a president that says go stop that count, and he says vice president Pence can stop it, knowing full well that that is not true but upping up that score and having people invade that Capitol and looking to arrest some of us, it's unacceptable. That's what you do in a banana republic.
HARLOW: Not here. Congressman Lou Correa, thank you. Glad you are doing. OK stay well.
CORREA: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
HARLOW: Of course.
Well, these are the final days of the Trump presidency. The potential Senate trial is looming for the impeached president. The impact of this we don't even know yet because it's never happened before for an ex-president. What is still to come -- ahead.
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HARLOW: Well, some would like to see the last of Donald Trump after Joe Biden is inaugurated. That will not happen. The Senate is going to move forward with the trial.
The question is, when are they going to do?
It when will they hold a trial of the impeached president? We don't exactly know when the proceedings will start and Democrats are still trying to figure out when to deliver these articles of impeachment to the Senate.
It's also going to need to balance of a trial and confirming all of Joe Biden's nominees, to major positions. Meantime, sources tell CNN President Trump is in urgent discussions about potentially pardoning himself, maybe his children, against what could be criminal prosecutions ahead in connection with violence at the Capitol.
Let's go to my colleague, CNN analyst Elie Honig.
Any state charges from the Southern District he can't pardon himself against. Thanks for being with me tonight.
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Thanks, Poppy.
HARLOW: Let's start there with the pardons.
If we see a slew of more pardons for the president's allies that's one thing but what about the extent to which he could possibly issue a mass pardon of those who stormed the Capitol with violence?
Can he do that?
HONIG: He can, Poppy. The president can essentially pardon anyone for any federal crime.
(CROSSTALK)
HARLOW: Those state charges he is not protected. Against
HONIG: Exactly and that is the important point. Any charges that may be coming out of the Manhattan DA, Georgia, the Georgia defense attorney is looking at the president's effort to interfere with the election results in Georgia, those are not covered by a presidential pardon.
The president has to be aware that he is looking at an impeachment trial after January 20th. I'm sure he doesn't want to be the first president in our history to be convicted. If he goes on a pardon bender and really abuses that power, that can really influence the way senators are thinking about voting for him.
HARLOW: OK, that's a good point.
Can I ask this -- may sound like a stupid question -- but why wouldn't he pardon himself?
Why wouldn't he protect himself?
HONIG: If it's all about self-interest and self-protection -- and much of President Trump's term has been about that and that only -- might as well go forth. The reason not to do it is, A, to avoid the real historic stain on his legacy, to avoid being the first president to ever issue a self-pardon. It may incentivize state level prosecutors. If the Feds are cut off by
a pardon, then the states, the impetus will go over the states. So in some ways, you may be poking the bear a little bit by issuing a self- pardon.
HARLOW: The reporting we have is that the president's lawyers in a Senate trial, the argument to protect him will be a First Amendment argument of protected speech.
But with Republican senator Pat Toomey saying on this network to Jake Tapper say, look the president could face criminal liability for his comments on the 6th before the riot, I guess is that his only defense in an outside court of law after ex presidency is protected speech?
And how protected are you by the First Amendment?
We all know you can't say anything you want?
HONIG: So the First Amendment very broadly protects speech but it's not without any limitation. Really the key test under criminal law is whether the speech was designed or likely incite imminent lawless action.
The president stood on the Ellipse there and said we're going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue to the Capitol and fight like hell. That's imminent, I don't think there's much question about that.
The question, were his words designed to invoke criminality?
People can argue back and forth, was he sending signals between the lines?
But look what he did afterwards. Afterwards, he praised the rioters in tweets.
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HONIG: And several said they did it because they thought the president was telling them to. That's the straight criminal standard. You don't need a crime to impeach.
HARLOW: Elie Honig, thank you for staying up late.
HONIG: Thanks, Poppy.
HARLOW: Coming up. President Trump's presidency has grabbed the world's attention for not only the last four years but for those running for office as well. Now he's almost out of office, U.S. allies still a little nervous about what is to come. And we should talk about this U.S. position in the world ahead. That's next.
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(MUSIC PLAYING) HARLOW: Welcome back to our viewers in the United States and around
the world, I'm Poppy Harlow. Thank you for joining us for special live coverage.
U.S. authorities are warning of further threats against the government in the days leading up to Joe Biden's inauguration. The FBI says there may be armed protests, in all 50 state capitals. They are particularly concerned about domestic extremists who refused to recognize Biden's election victory.
The security in Washington has been incredibly ramped up. The U.S. Capitol, now a virtual fortress, with barbed wire fences and thousands of law enforcement officers and National Guard troops around the clock. The U.S. political situation also, under a global microscope, violent insurrection.
[00:30:00]
HARLOW: A second impeachment of the president and upcoming inauguration unlike one ever before. There is a lot going on in the United States right now. And our allies and adversaries are watching it very closely. I'm happy to bring in my friend and colleague, Will Ripley, joining me from Hong Kong.
And it is such a unique perspective, because you were just in California over the holidays. You are back now in Hong Kong, so you are seeing exactly how the world is viewing the United States.
I thought it was interesting, Will, you noted that stabilizing and rebuilding American democracy is critical to salvaging our soft power and influence, abroad.
WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Poppy. I've lived abroad for almost eight years now and I've seen firsthand, the importance of the United States. All over the world. The reality is, especially for allies in the E.U. and G7 nations, these are difficult to watch. The scenes of the insurrection, the militarization of the U.S. Capitol, those are the kinds of things that they expect to see in Venezuela or Belarus, not Washington.
I was chatting with a foreign diplomat, who said America used to be the shiny example of democracy, now an example of what not to do. It is, of all the advanced industrial democracies, the most dysfunctional, the most divided.
This is a problem because when it comes to brand America, the soft power that comes with it, that the U.S. has relied on since World War II, it's really eroded over the last 4 years.
HARLOW: We've been going over the world, saying don't do, that don't say, that don't lie to your people like that. Look at what has happened in this country.
Will, I am interested in the media and, in particular, in China and how it is covering the developments, for example, the president's ban on Twitter? RIPLEY: Here in Hong Kong, for example, the pro-democracy protests that consumed this city, that the United States praised, the pro- democracy movement. When you saw similar images, complete opposites of ideology, but you saw people storming the U.S. Capitol, Beijing and Chinese state media jumped on that.
They called the United States hypocritical for condemning those actions, their Capitol, while celebrating them here in Hong Kong. You also have this issue mentioned of the Twitter and Facebook ban. Two private companies that, under the First Amendment, are allowed to ban anyone they, want. They banned President Trump.
In China, they say, see?
That's an example that our government-imposed censorship is basically the same as the United States. Of course, it isn't. But it's a real propaganda win for American adversaries, especially China.
HARLOW: You have hugely important institutions like the U.N., NATO, Article 5 that has protected this country after 9/11, that had just taken a beating under the Trump administration.
I wonder how, in your view, that impacts the incoming Biden administration?
It doesn't just flip the switch on the 21st.
RIPLEY: Certainly, America's traditional allies will welcome President Biden. But the damage that is there and the fact that the U.S. has scaled backwards and the process of scaling back military commitments around the world, without offering much in terms of a diplomatic solution, arms control agreements back to the Cold War, like Open Skies, the INF treaty, they're crumbling.
The Iran nuclear deal the U.S. pulled out, the Paris agreement on climate change that President Trump pulled out of, basically, President Biden now has to go in and try to patch back together decades of diplomacy that, basically, fell apart under President Trump.
HARLOW: It's sort of like a Band-aid; the cut is still there. It takes a while to heal, for sure.
Before you go, you are in Hong Kong and I'm interested because China's post COVID-19 economy is rebounding. The U.S. vaccine rollout is sputtering, to say the least. The caseload, the deaths, are all exploding in the United States. It seems like President Xi and China is using this is a moment to tout what he views, as a superior system.
RIPLEY: Absolutely he is. I have to tell you, as someone who traveled a few days ago from Los Angeles, which is one of the COVID hotspots in the U.S. right now, when I arrived in the U.S., no mandatory COVID tests, no enforcement of the 2 week quarantine. It was suggested but no one calls, no one checks on you.
Compare that to when I came to Hong Kong a few days ago and I had to stay for 21 days in a hotel room, wearing an electronic wristband, to ensure that I didn't even leave the room.
No one is allowed to have contact, they knock on the door, they leave your meals. It's kind of like being under house arrest. Hong Kong has case numbers, daily case numbers, maybe in the dozens, a tiny fraction compared to any state in the United States.
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RIPLEY: So what President Xi is saying is, look, China has a massive population, their case numbers are small, life in Mainland China. And when you get out of quarantine here in Hong Kong, is normal. Things are restricted but not to the level or the damage, economically, of what we see in the States.
HARLOW: OK, enjoy 21 days in that room. I know you will make it. I would take one day in a nice hotel.
(LAUGHTER)
HARLOW: Will, we are glad you can report from there. It's essential. Thank you so much for being with us tonight on all of that.
The riot at the Capitol, the insurrection at the Capitol, it is, of course, not the only far right wing radical attack we have seen during the Trump administration. When we return, the mayor, the former mayor of Charlottesville, Virginia, will join us. Of course, he was the mayor during Unite the Right in 2017 and he has some warnings for officials now.
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HARLOW: The Capitol siege last week saw the rise of far-right extremist groups. Intelligence officials now say that the groups are more a threat to the United States than jihadi terror groups from overseas. Jim Sciutto explains.
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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The deadly assault on the U.S. Capitol, the alleged plot to kidnap Michigan's governor.
[00:40:00]
SCIUTTO (voice-over): Just two recent instances of a violent right wing extremist movement that has been growing on U.S. soil for years.
According to current and former counter terror officials, the threat now rivals that from international terrorism.
PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: There is no debate. The facts show that right wing extremists have killed more people since 9/11 than any other political ideology and that includes jihadi terrorists.
SCIUTTO (voice-over): Since 9/11, 114 people have been killed in attacks by far right-wing terrorists in the United States, 107 by jihadi terrorists. And right-wing attacks are increasingly outpacing jihadi terrorism, responsible for two-thirds of attacks and plots in the U.S. in 2019 and more than 90 percent between January 1 and May 8, 2020.
Attacks and plots by such groups have now occurred in 42 states and the District of Columbia in the past six years.
Fueling right wing extremists are the conspiracies propagated by the president of a system organized against them and two essential ingredients.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: The first is a leader who tells them what to do, who tells them how to feel, who makes them believe that they are part of something bigger, that this is a mission.
The other is a network, whether it's social media or platform, or ways of communication, that lets them essentially talk amongst themselves, get organized.
SCIUTTO: The growing degree of organization particularly alarms U.S. officials. Investigators are pursuing signs the assault on the Capitol was planned and not spontaneous, including knowledge of the Capitol's layout, radio communications among protest leaders and planting of explosive devices to divert law enforcement.
The worry now is that the targets could expand along with the planning from the U.S. Capitol to all 50 state capitals to so-called soft targets, mirroring those attacked by jihadi terrorists.
CHRISTOPHER KREBS, FORMER DIRECTOR, CYBERSECURITY AND INFRASTRUCTURE SECURITY AGENCY: Infrastructure hitting soft targets, the disruption of services, those are the sorts of things that every systemically important infrastructure owner, operator, CEOs needs to be assembling their crisis management teams yesterday.
SCIUTTO: Fact is the FBI and Justice Department have been warning about right wing extremism for years and the DHS now identifies it as "the most persistent and lethal threat in the Homeland." However, political appointees in the Trump administration, at times, downplayed it.
BERGEN: The political signals have been that the right wing terrorism is OK, certainly what the president said at Charlottesville - after the Charlottesville terrorist attack. And he continues to some degree.
SCIUTTO: Downplaying the threat and even echoing extremist rhetoric.
TRUMP: Our country will be destroyed and we're not going to stand for that.
SCIUTTO: That has had consequences. KAYYEM: The failure to identify it, to name it and to focus resources on the growing threat of white supremacy terrorism has meant that agencies have not focused on it in the way that they should.
SCIUTTO: January 6th laid that vulnerability bare. Despite weeks of chatter online, U.S. authorities were not prepared for a deadly assault in the heart of the U.S. Capitol.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Such important reporting from Jim Sciutto there.
The Pentagon has authorized 25,000 National Guard to be on guard in Washington, for the inauguration. It means more U.S. troops in our nation's Capitol than in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria combined.
The insurrection at the Capitol brings back haunting memories of violence in Charlottesville, Virginia. White nationalists, right wing groups coming together for a violent Unite the Right rally. That was in 2017. Of course, you know one person killed, Heather Heyer; more than a dozen seriously injured.
Remember the president's comments after that?
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QUESTION: The neo-Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Excuse me, excuse me. They didn't put themselves -- and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Both sides.
Joining me now, former mayor of Charlottesville, Michael Signer.
Thank you for being here. It's hard to hear, that even now. It really is. I am so glad you are here, because of that experience, you have an important essay in "Time" magazine that is titled, "D.C. Officials Ignored the Lessons We Learned in Charlottesville. Here Are Three Things Leaders Should Do to Help Prevent Future Attacks."
You're also the author of the new book, "Cry Havoc: Charlottesville and American Democracy under Siege."
And, yes, it certainly is right now. I wonder, given what you led Charlottesville through, what you thought when you saw the insurrection on the 6th?
[00:45:00] MICHAEL SIGNER (D), FORMER CHARLOTTESVILLE MAYOR: I think -- on top of my outrage and my fear and loathing, there was this haunting feeling of familiarity. And what we saw on 2017 was the prologue for what happened here.
I think, most tragically and criminally, it was the prologue for lessons that should have been learned, that were shared, amply, that the administration knew and that they failed to apply, and Trump specifically failed. That's where the greatest accountability needs to lie.
HARLOW: Given that and you learned about the tragedy that can come. You learned the hard way, from having multiple jurisdictions not communicating enough, not understanding enough. That seems to be where a lot of the failure was in Washington, D.C., last week.
The fact that we are on the potential brink of another violent week, what is your advice to those mayors across the country in the 50 capital cities?
SIGNER: There were 3 very specific takeaways from Charlottesville. Charlottesville is a small city, a 50,000, under siege from hundreds of white nationalists organized, mind, you into 10 paramilitary groups, that clashed with left wing activists but they invaded the city and to push this agenda. There was the police that failed to stop the street flooding that happened, the weaponization of a car where Heather Heyer was killed.
You have to scour the entire internet for details about planning, including the Dark Web or the deep web. And there was planning on sites where there were specific plans to occupy the Capitol and assassinate political leaders.
The second is you need a security plan that will provide a stadium or a boundary, where there are fixed points of entry and exit. And you have to rehearse, with all of the different players. They didn't do that either.
In Charlottesville it's complicated but in D.C., there is a federal protectorate and the president of the United States, whose base include white nationalists is, effectively, the governor of D.C. That's one reason why the National Guard did not show up and stop these events, which, to me, is equally criminal as the incitement.
HARLOW: Just as the Stop the Steal rally was a well-planned and publicized event ahead of time, so was Unite the, Right in Charlottesville?
You tried to deny those protesters in 2017 a permit or even move it to a different part of town at the last minute, the ACLU sued on First Amendment grounds. The federal judge ruled against you.
You are a lawyer, what do you make of the freedom of speech argument being used, now, in D.C., here by the president's lawyers, protected speech, all of that?
There are limits to it.
SIGNER: Exactly. This is, I think, one of the most crucial areas of learning that that came out of Charlottesville. It's interesting hearing Mr. Honig talk about this earlier. The First Amendment, as it exists in the Constitution is fixed, those words. But the interpretation of the First Amendment, by courts, lawyers and legislators, has changed over time.
In Charlottesville, our hands were tied by an ancient, conservative, absolutist interpretation of the First Amendment. It is called the credible threat standard. The only thing that can let you relocate or cancel a rally, like this, that may become violent, is if the planners trip up, slip and use the words, I am planning an imminent terrorist act or an imminent violent act.
If they are creative enough, if they say, I will only bash someone's head in if they attack me, then they get off scot-free. That is why we lost that federal court case.
The fact is, the courts are changing the test as we speak, I believe. Judges are pragmatic and the law has to evolve to deal with today's incendiary environment and created incitement, like you see from people like Donald Trump.
HARLOW: I hear that. I also, hear, as a journalist, critics say it's a slippery slope. You can go too far in restricting free speech, right?
One of the beauties of this country. I just wonder how you strike a balance.
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HARLOW: Certainly, you are hearing many conservatives, very upset now, to see platforms like Parler taken offline, essentially, even though there was so much violence promoted on that platform that they refused to take down for weeks.
I wonder how you think about the balance?
SIGNER: It's exactly as you said, it's a balancing act. I think the most important thing about not just the First Amendment, as it's written on paper but as it's interpreted by judges and legislators and leaders, it's to not let anyone lie to you.
Don't let anyone paint it in cartoonish terms that's not true. For instance, private companies, like Parler, Twitter or Facebook, are not subject to the First Amendment in this country. It's one of the reasons why we have private companies. They are not government run companies like the social media companies in China, for instance.
That is how we've set them up. It is a balancing act, just like you said. And judges have to balance what is happening in the world around them and what we see now, the level of insurrection and incitement and just pure danger to the state, as it is, which is what Donald Trump and his forces sought to do. We saw it in Charlottesville, an invasion of the city to stop a fairly
progressive city in the South from relocating a Confederate monument. Just, now there was an invasion to stop the Congress from certifying Joe Biden.
So these are facts and they will have to weigh the public safety against the free speech. It's always a balancing act and judges need to be pragmatic and there's a different balance that needs to be struck right now, looking at what we just saw.
HARLOW: This has been enlightening and I hope those folks in charge are listening to your words, given what you lived and led through. Former Charlottesville mayor, Michael Signer, thank you so much.
SIGNER: Thank you for having me.
HARLOW: We will be right back.
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HARLOW: The numbers are staggering and devastating. Soon, 400,000 Americans will have lost their lives to coronavirus -- 400,000, the most anywhere in the world. Numbers from Johns Hopkins University tonight.
The U.S., fast approaching 24 million COVID cases, more than 12,000 of those cases reported by Florida, just on Saturday alone. That brings the state's total to more than 1.5 million COVID cases.
Official data also show that more than 7,000 people are in Florida hospitals right now with COVID.
I am Poppy Harlow, in New York, the news continues in just a moment.
