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Schumer Says Impeachment Article Will Be Delivered to Senate Monday; 6 in 10 Americans Don't Know Where or When to Get the Vaccine; U.K. Variant of COVID Has Higher Degree of Mortality; Prospects of Convicting Trump Are Eroding. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired January 22, 2021 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The argument that the Biden Administration has made and Treasury Secretary nominee in particular Janet Yellen has made is that if indeed you do care about fiscal responsibility, you do care about fiscal sustainability, perhaps counterintuitively the thing you should do is spend more now.

Because if you spend more now you potentially limit the permanent damage to the economy's productive capacity. You help people get back to work more quickly. You make sure fewer businesses fail for example, so when we do have widespread vaccine distribution the economy can get back up and running relatively swiftly.

If you don't spend enough now then you can wreak a lot of permanent damage on the economy and consequently on those long-run federal deficits. So that's the argument that they are making. They are not saying Republicans you're a bunch of hypocrites. They are saying, look, if in good faith you actually care about the deficit, spend more now and then later when the sun is shining, we'll deal with the other problems.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Ready for the sun to shine. When will the sun shine? Catherine Rampell, thank you. Laura Baron Lopez, thank you so, so much.

Still ahead here, speaking of COVID. Cases are down for much of the country but people are still waiting long, long hours to get their vaccines if they can each get one at all. We'll talk about that.

Also big impeachment news today. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer says House Speaker Nancy Pelosi will deliver the article to the Senate on Monday. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We'll be right back.

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BALDWIN: Coronavirus deaths have now hit another grim milestone here in America. More than 410,000 deaths and counting. January is on pace to become the deadliest month of this pandemic so far, and now a stunning admission from Dr. Anthony Fauci about why that number may be where it is today.

CNN's Erica Hill reports that Americans who want a vaccine simply do not know where to go.

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ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): With COVID-19 deaths still far too high, a blunt admission.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Did the lack of candor, did the lack of facts in some cases over the last year cost lives?

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: You know it very likely did.

HILL (voice over): More than 411,000 lives lost, nearly 4,000 more added just yesterday. Nationwide average new cases are down by more than 20 percent over the past week. One trouble spot, Virginia, where that number is moving in the opposite direction, up a staggering 19 percent.

While overall hospitalizations are declining.

DR. JONEIGH KHALDUN, CHIEF MEDICAL EXECUTIVE, MICHIGAN: Now just under 10 percent of in-patient beds in the state are being used for patients with COVID-19.

HILL (voice over): Hot spots remain.

MELODY NUNGARAY-ORTIZ, ICU NURSE, BANNER UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER, PHOENIX: As soon as you start to tend to a situation, to try to get your bearings with that quickly another emergency arises.

HILL (voice over): In California, ICU availability is at an all-time low. Hard hit Los Angeles adding virus warning signs in high-risk areas.

LUIS GONZALEZ, SPOKESMAN, L.A. CITY COUNCIL MEMBER, GIL CEDILLO: We wanted to make it as powerful and as colorful as possible.

HILL (voice over): The CDC sparking confusion with new guidance about the coronavirus vaccine now advising it's OK to wait as long as six weeks between doses.

FAUCI: You're taking a chance.

HILL (voice over): Dr. Fauci walking that initial reaction back just hours later.

FAUCI: Sometimes the situation is stressed where it's very difficult to be exactly on time, so we're saying you can probably do it six weeks later. There's no disagreement at all between me and the CDC.

HILL (voice over): Meantime many eligible Americans still struggling to get their first dose.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You get a busy signal or no answer.

HILL (voice over): Six in ten people still don't know where or when they can get a vaccine according to a new study.

DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR, VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: We are just learning as we go and it's been painful.

HILL: (voice over) The most common issue, supply.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our biggest limiting factor right now is vaccine.

HILL (voice over): Florida cracking down on vaccine tourism to ensure enough doses for residents. The FDNY pulling back on planned vaccinations as New York City stock runs low.

Meantime, it won't look like this but Super Bowl 55 will allow 22,000 fans to watch the big game in person. Among them some 7,500 vaccinated health care workers.

ROGER GOODELL, NFL COMMISSIONER: And we hope that this program will be a small way to celebrate you, honor you and most importantly thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL (on camera): And Brooke, I just want to update you on some breaking news we're just learning here at CNN. We've now learned 19 police officers, Capitol Hill police officers, have tested positive for coronavirus in the two weeks since that deadly insurrection since the riots on Capitol Hill.

It was not clear according to the union. They could not confirm that all 19 of these officers were in fact on duty the day of the attack. But, again, Brooke, 19 Capitol Hill police officers testing positive since January 6th, since that storming of the Capitol.

BALDWIN: Nineteen, we'll see if that number goes up. Erica Hill, thank you so much.

Doctor Celine Gounder, let me bring you in now. Dr. Gounder served as a member of the Biden-Harris transition COVID advisory board. Dr. Gounder, thank you for being here.

And in Erica's piece she mentioned the news out of New York today that, you know, New York now said it could very well run out of COVID vaccine supplies as early as today. My question is, you know, when will more vaccines be manufactured?

CELINE GOUNDER, FORMER MEMBER OF THE BIDEN-HARRIS TRANSITION COVID ADVISORY BOARD: So it's not just that there was no plan for a vaccine distribution. The Biden administration is also inheriting this big black box as to how many doses are available and where they are?

So it's not just, you know, when are doses going to come off the production line? It's how many doses are currently sitting in pharmaceutical company warehouses?

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How many of those doses have been allocated or assigned to states? How many of those have actually been order by the states for delivery? And then how many of those doses have made it to the states and to health facilities?

And so if you're the person at the health facility who is trying to schedule appointments for your patients and you have no idea what's coming to you in the next two or three days, it's very difficult to adjust your scheduling to meet -- to make best use of the supply that's coming your way and that's leading to a lot of frustrations on the ground.

BALDWIN: Jen Psaki, the White House press secretary fielded a question on this today and she said they specifically asked the CDC to look into it.

I know you and I have talked a lot about the various variants. The U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson today speaking on the variant that first detected in the U.K. and he said that it may be more lethal than previous strains. But he also added that both of the vaccines that are available remain effective against the old and new variant. But my question is can the vaccines be distributed faster than the variants seem to spread?

GOUNDER: It is certainly going to be a race, and many of us are very concerned about what's going to be coming this spring. We've seen already over Thanksgiving, over Christmas and New Year's that people traveling, spending time with family and friends leads to increased transmission.

You're going to see people traveling again probably for spring break in March and April and that is exactly when we expect that these variants in particular the U.K. variant to really have taken hold in the U.S. And so that's really a dangerous confluence of things happening all at once that could predict another big surge at that time.

BALDWIN: I was also talking about -- to our economist a bit ago about the proverbial sun shining again, and I'm curious as many people are watching I'm sure when do we go back to normal? Dr. Fauci said that if the U.S. could vaccinate 70 percent, 80, 85 percent of people by the end of this summer, he said we could approach, and I'm quoting, a degree of normality by the fall.

So Dr. Gounder, does that mean that come, you know, September, October, November we're all sitting inside restaurants eating again, maskless?

GOUNDER: You know, I honestly don't think masks are going away any time soon. We may be able to sit indoors, maybe more spaced apart and have dinner, but I think you're still going to see a lot of mask use in the coming months and perhaps even years over cough, cold, flu season and this is precisely the pattern that has happened. The behavior change that's happened in Southeast Asia where they were

hit by SARS. They were hit by Avian Flu before, and this just became a matter of course, something that you, you know, just like you put on your mittens when you head outside in the cold of winter --

BALDWIN: Part of the cultural norms --

GOUNDER -- that you put on your masks.

BALDWIN: -- things you grab, wallets, keys and your mask. Welcome to our new normal. Talking to myself, too. Dr. Celine Gounder, thank you.

A major step towards former President Trump's second impeachment trial. The article expected to be sent to the Senate on Monday as we learn top Republicans are actually lobbying other Republicans on Capitol Hill for Trump's conviction. We have that scoop next.

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BALDWIN: Today a major step forward in the start of the Trump impeachment trial. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer announcing that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi will deliver the article of impeachment to the Senate on Monday.

This is happening as we learned about a dozen Republicans, including former top Trump officials, have been quietly lobbying members of their own party in Congress to convict the former president for his role in inciting that insurrection.

CNN's chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju is up on The Hill. And so, Manu, what happens next once the article gets delivered Monday?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, things will get moving pretty quickly unless there's an agreement with Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer and the rest of the Senate to delay the arguments. That remains a possibility, but at the moment we're expecting full steam ahead next week once the articles are actually presented.

The question will be how long will the trial last? Will it go anywhere near the length from the -- from the 2020 trial of Donald Trump that lasted 21 days? Doing that, of course, will eat up much of the full month of the Biden presidency, and there are concerns among Democrats and Republicans that a trial could essentially bog down the efforts to fill Joe Biden's cabinet.

Now at the same time there are also questions about whether or not there would be enough Republicans who could break ranks and convict Donald Trump. They would need 17 Republicans at least to join with 50 Democrats if they all stay united in order to convict Trump and then vote to later bar him from any serving in office again on the charge of inciting an insurrection that led to the deadly riot here on Capitol Hill on January 6th. But in talking to more than a dozen Republicans it is clear, Brooke, that the chances of convicting Donald Trump is extremely slim. Most Republicans believe that Trump should be acquitted on various grounds. Some believe it's unconstitutional to go after a former president.

Others believe the -- the president -- the former President Trump did not in their view get enough due process and are questioning the talk about expediting the trial proceedings in the Senate.

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Others are squarely in the Trump camp. So where they get the 17 Republicans remains an open question. The expectation is perhaps a handful could break ranks but getting to more than a dozen seems highly unlikely.

Of course, the big wild card here is Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell. He has not said how he would come down. He has privately raised concerns about the president's conduct -- former president's conduct -- but he is viewed by a lot of his colleagues as likely to side with where his conference ends up.

And I can tell you talking to Senators, the conference is ready to acquit Donald Trump.

BALDWIN: The headline for you from the dozen or so Republicans you talked to, extremely slim. That is significant as we roll into the weekend and then Monday. Manu, thank you.

Let's get some reaction to that, joining me now, CNN political commentator and former Republican Congressman from Pennsylvania, Charlie Dent.

Charlie Dent, good to see you. Let's just dive in. You heard Manu reporting out, you know, you know, extraordinarily slim. Yet we also know the likes of Mitch McConnell want Trump gone.

Let me read you this quote from this one Republican member of Congress, quote --

It is in McConnell's political interest to have him gone. It is in the GOP interest to have him gone. The question is do we get there?

It sounds like they maybe don't. But what do you think?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I do think McConnell wants a clean break. And I agree with Manu's assessment. That right now the chances of conviction are fairly remote. But if Mitch McConnell speaks up loudly, he can move some members. Now we're also hearing about this memo.

BALDWIN: Influential Republicans.

DENT: Influential Republicans with their nine-point memo quietly lobbying. Well it's time not to be so quiet. They need to be loud. They need to identify themselves and make the case. BALDWIN: Define loud. Define loud.

DENT: Yes, like you know, unmasking themselves. Coming on CNN and other networks and talking about why they believe this president -- or that president needed to be convicted. They need to be loud about it. I mean that's been the problem all along. We've heard plenty of whispers over the last four years. Oh, yes, it's worse than we all think. We all know that.

But we need to put some flesh to the bones. We need to see these people. Let them tell us what they did in the administration. Tell specific stories. Make the case. And see how many members of the Senate you can move.

Hey, 10 courageous House Republicans put their votes up. They could use a little bit of reinforcement. You know, Bill Kristol is out there right now pledging to raise $50 million to defend those who voted to impeach and those who will vote to convict. So again, time to get out there and start making the case. Loudly.

BALDWIN: Do you think if they finally stop whispering and the likes of Mitch McConnell -- you know, Mitch McConnell himself becomes even louder about wanting this clean break, wanting Donald Trump gone, will that make the difference?

DENT: Well, it may. I could probably count five or six Senate Republicans right now who I think could easily vote to convict. Obviously, the need to get to 17.

But I believe Mitch McConnell has a lot of clout and a lot of influence within the Senate caucus. And if he sends a clear signal that he's quite comfortable with conviction or that he might himself vote to convict that could drag a few more members along. I don't know if that will get you to 17 but it will get them closer to that number.

So you know, but I think at this moment, it's remote. But, hey, let's see. We're going to have a trial. We're going to learn more as facts are revealed. And I think the facts of the president will only get worse over time, not better.

BALDWIN: But Charlie, herein lies sort of the complexity of the Republican Party right now. You know, because we also -- on the one hand, yes, all this lobbying, and Mitch McConnell saying he wants him gone. But then on the other -- Politico is reporting today the Republicans are already launching a revenge effort against those Republican lawmakers who actually supported impeachment.

Is that what's driving everything here? And ultimately, which side wins?

DENT: Well, I think the ten who voted for impeachment are on the right side. They certainly understand that the president's conduct was simply so out of bounds, inciting this insurrection.

And really, launching a frontal assault on Congress itself and on the constitutional order. I mean, if this isn't impeachable, I really don't know what ever would be. So I think right now that, you know, Liz Cheney and the others, especially Liz. You know, she's under assault, under attack.

BALDWIN: She is.

DENT: And just think how absurd that is. The president incites an insurrection on Congress, and the response, instead of going after the president, to attack Liz Cheney who called it out and voted to impeach?

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In what world? So I think Liz is in a stronger position than people realize. Because there are those who voted against impeachment or who voted for certification who wish they had done what Liz did, but maybe just didn't have the capacity to do it.

So I think that there's -- she's in a stronger position. It's time for Republicans to marginalize those, you know, on the fringe. You know, we have to do something about these QAnon conspiracy theorists, these white nationalists.

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I mean the Proud Boys, and, you know, the others in part of that freak show who showed up, you know, the guy who looked like he was in the Village People.

I mean this whole group. We have to marginalize and cleanse ourselves of this extreme element just as William Buckley and other leaders did, you know, with the John Birch Society several decades ago.

BALDWIN: Yes, I was talking to a Democrat yesterday, Abigail Spanberger saying, you know, listen, we all need to be unified in rooting out that kind of extremism.

But to your point about Liz Cheney, you know, at the time she called it a vote of conscience and hopefully some of these other Republican Senators, you know, for the sake of maybe the nation come to that same conclusion. Charlie Dent, thank you.

DENT: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Breaking news coverage continues. As President Biden signs two executive orders moments ago aimed at addressing this economic crisis.

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