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Capitol Rioter Charged With Threatening To Assassinate Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY); British Prime Minister: Variant First Detected In U.K. May Be Deadlier Than Others; Broadcasting Legend Larry King Dies At Age 87; Award-Winning Actress And Choreographer, Debbie Allen, Discusses Larry King's Life, Legacy And Impact; NYT: Trump And DOJ Lawyer Said To Have Plotted To Oust Acting A.G., Overturn Georgia Election Results; Who Benefits Strategically With The Trump Impeachment Trial Delayed Two Weeks? Aired 3-4p ET

Aired January 23, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

LARRY KING, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: We're going to do specials here in CNN and we'll be seeing other places and do some radio work here on baseball. So you're not going to see me go away but you're not going to see me here on the set anymore.

I am -- I don't know what to say, except to you my audience, thank you. And instead of goodbye, how about so long?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM, I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

We begin with this disturbing breaking news. A Texas man who participated in the Capitol riot is now charged with threatening to assassinate Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. His charges coming as the investigation into the deadly attack on the U.S. Capitol continues.

Let's get to CNN's Jessica Schneider with more details. Jessica, what have you learned?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, you know this suspect is accused of posting online death threats not only against Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez but also against the Capitol police officer. Prosecutors say it's Garrett Miller of Texas. And he tweeted this, he said assassinate AOC, and then he also said that that officer who fatally shot that Trump supporter who had made her way into the Capitol on January 6th, Garrett Miller also allegedly said this, said, she deserves to die and won't survive long, because it's, quote, hunting season.

Now, officials do say that Miller participated in this Capitol attack, and he did post extensively on social media both before the attack, they say during the attack as well. He said this, according to prosecutors, a civil war could start and, quote, next time we bring guns. And, of course, Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez, she has been very vocal about the danger that she felt she underwent during this attack on January 6th. She's been vocal then and ever since. Here is what she had to say about that day in particular.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): I had a very close encounter where I thought I was going to die. It is not an exaggeration to say that many, many members of the House were nearly assassinated. It's just not an exaggeration to say that at all. We were very lucky that things happened within certain minutes that allowed members to escape the House floor unharmed, but many of us nearly and narrowly escaped death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHNEIDER: And now, this man who posted those threats against AOC as well as the Capitol police officer, Garrett Miller, he is facing five federal criminal charges incorporating his participation in the attack and then no subsequent death threats.

But, Ana, we've also heard now from that man's lawyer. His name is Clint Broden. And he released this to CNN, saying, he did it in support of former President Donald Trump but regrets his actions. He has the support of his family, and a lot of the comments are viewed in context as really sort of misguided political hyperbole. Given the political divide these days, there is a lot of hyperbole.

And, of course, this man just the latest to be charged. There have been more than 120 people charged federally in this attack. But, Ana, of course, this is just the beginning. Prosecutors say that there could be hundreds more charged, but this is where the real work begins. Because a lot of the people who have been charged already, you're seeing it in this arrest right here, they have posted online, they have talked about their involvement in the attack.

It's those other people who are definitely more difficult to find at this point. Prosecutors, investigators searching for them, including whoever may have planted those two pipe bombs outside the RNC and the DNC just a few blocks from the Capitol.

And, of course, the charges we could see in the future could be a lot more hefty. They could include sedition and conspiracy. You know, those charges, the penalty is upward of 20 years in prison. So a lot to come here, but of course we're seeing new arrests, just like this one, announced pretty much daily, Ana.

CABRERA: And the more details that come to light, the more we realize just how scary all of this is. Jessica Schneider, thank you.

Also related to the Capitol siege, former President Donald Trump will now have a little more time to prepare for his Senate impeachment trial. And it's been delayed for two weeks until February 9th, roughly the timeline that the new Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell, wanted. CNN's Jamie Gangel and Michael Warren have been reporting dozens of influential Republicans are lobbying McConnell to vote to convict Trump. A member of Congress telling CNN this, Mitch said to me, he wants Trump gone. It is in his political interest to have him gone. It is in the GOP interest to have him gone.

[15:05:01]

The question is, do we get there?

CNN Suzanne Malveaux is on Capitol Hill for us. Suzanne, why did Democrats agree to delay the trial and what are the chances enough Republicans sign on to convict the president, the former president?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, as you know, the Senate is split, 50 Democrats, 50 Republicans. They have to come up with this power-sharing negotiation agreement.

So you had Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell behind the scenes trying to figure out rules to basically govern on the Senate side. And one of those is coming up with the trial for impeachment. And so for the Democrats and the Biden Administration, they want to get a lot done in the first 100 days. So we're talking about COVID relief, $1.9 trillion in stimulus but also the nominees, the cabinet nominees to be confirmed by the Senate.

Republicans made it very clear they're not splitting the day, they're not splitting the purpose here with impeachment and legislation. They said it is all or nothing. And so they took to heart just listen to Senator Lindsey Graham.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): If you want to impeach the president, we're going to do it like what we always done. We're not going to split the day, at least I would listen. That's the business in the Senate, once we go into it. They're choosing to do this, we're choosing to do this, we're going to do it the way we've always done it. We've never split the day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And, Ana, so what was it that Republicans, the GOP and McConnell got out of this, well, they were demanding or rather asking that the Trump legal defense team get some time for due process to prepare for the Senate trial. And that is something that they got, not as much time as they had hoped, but, clearly, this trial will begin in earnest. We're talking about as early as Monday.

That is when the single article of impeachment will literally travel from the House side to the Senate side. That will be filed. It will be announced on the Senate floor. The following today, a summon issued to Trump about these charges and then some critical deadlines to follow. February 2nd, the deadlines for the Trump response team as well as the House managers in this trial to issue their pretrial briefings. Another critical deadline, February 8th, that in which the Trump will bring forward his own pretrial briefings, his legal team. And then February 9th, that is when the House will present its rebuttal, as well as the official beginning of the trial.

Ana, it is not anticipated or expected that the president will be convicted. You would need at least 17 Republicans to do so in addition to all 50 Democrats, but they certainly are going to try.

CABRERA: Trump may be gone, but the drama has not left Capitol Hill just yet. Suzanne Malveaux, thank you.

Joining us now, Democratic Senator Tina Smith of Minnesota. Senator, good to have you with us.

First, I just want to get your reaction to this breaking news, that one of the people arrested for allegedly participating in the Capitol riot has now been charged with threatening to assassinate Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez.

SEN. TINA SMITH (D-MN): Well, thank you, Ana, and I'm really glad to be with you today. This is terrible, terrible news. And it, I think, reminds all of us how deadly serious this attack on our Capitol and our nation was on January 6th. I fear that the more we find out about what was really going on, the extent of planning and organization among these right-wing militia groups and white supremacist groups, the more we find out about this, the worse it's going to get.

And that's why it is so important that we continue full on with prosecuting folks, making sure that we keep them locked up (INAUDIBLE) in the midst of this investigation. I'm very worried about what I'm hearing about these individuals being -- who were arrested, and now being let loose on bail, when it seems to me that there's still a great threat here.

CABRERA: And according to his lawyer, he did it in support of former President Donald Trump, but he regrets his actions. So as you contemplate the impeachment article that's expected to land there in the Senate coming as soon as Monday, CNN is reporting there's a whisper campaign among Republicans building that privately, some including Mitch McConnell want to see Trump convicted.

But even then, the numbers may not be there. You're not going to get to 17, the critical number of Republicans needed to join all of the Democrats to have a conviction. So what are you hearing from Republicans privately?

SMITH: Well, you know, I think the Republicans have a really, really big decision to make. The reality of this is that the president told these people a big lie about how the election had been stolen from him and they believed him. And because of that, because he incited them, they did this attack on the Capitol. And so now the Republicans have to decide what kind of party do they want to be. Do they want to be the party of Trump or do they want to be the Republican Party?

And we need -- to tell you the truth, I'm a Democrat, but we need to -- at least two strong parties in our country for democracy to work. So I hope that they realize that this is an opportunity to put an end to the Trumpist part of their party.

[15:10:00]

It's going to be up to them in the end though. And I believe that the results to the evidence will show that the president did incite this violence and he should be held accountable.

CABRERA: Do you know of any Republicans who have made up their mind to vote to convict at this point?

SMITH: I can't say that I know that anybody has made up their mind. And, of course, the trial hasn't even started yet. As you just reported, we now it will start now, it looks like, for real in about two weeks.

CABRERA: The New York Times is reporting today some stunning new details about the lengths former President Trump was willing to go in order to try to stay in power. The Paper reports that, in his final weeks in office, so even before this insurrection, Mr. Trump was planning to oust then acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen and then install a loyalist who was another member of the Justice Department who would force Georgia to overturn its election results. What is your reaction to learning this new detail? Is this something that needs to be investigated?

SMITH: Absolutely. I mean, this is another piece of stunning information to the length to which Donald Trump was willing to go to hold on to power even though he had lost the election. And, again, another example of what looks like just narrowly our country avoiding what would have been a coup attempt. So I think we have to get to the bottom of this.

You know, also, we've just seen reported this stunning news that the president seemed to be saying that he knew what to expect on the attack day, January 6th, when he said to folks at the Department of Defense, you're going to need 10,000 troops. So these are the things that we have to investigate and get to the bottom of. This is how we're going to get accountability and how we're going to come back together. We can't just walk by all of this information. We have to get to the bottom of it.

CABRERA: That news that you just reported on our air, did that come from an investigation within Congress or where did you get that information about the former president?

SMITH: This is being reported today. It was reported by a Vanity Fair journalist who was embedded with the Department of Defense. And it gets at the point that there's lots that we don't know yet about what happened.

CABRERA: Absolutely. And so I just need to say that CNN has not confirmed that reporting.

You and six other Democrats have requested an ethics probe now into Republican Senators Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley over the Capitol riot. And in this complaint it read by proceeding with their objections to the electors after the violent attack, Senators Cruz and Hawley lent legitimacy to the mob's cause and made future violence more likely. What exactly do you want investigators to look into here?

SMITH: What I want to see is an investigation into exactly what Senator Hawley and Senator Cruz did, how they were connected, if at all, with the organizers of this rally, what exactly happened here. You know, the United States Senate needs to protect its integrity in this moment. And Senator Hawley and Senator Cruz are showing no remorse, no regrets for what happened. In fact, they are defiant.

And, again, I believe that the path to moving forward has got to be around accountability for the actions that these senators and also members of the House, accountability for their actions. While this mob was preparing to attack the capitol, they were giving credence to this baseless allegation that the election had been stolen. And even during the attack they were fundraising off of these false allegations. There has to be accountability here.

CABRERA: Let me just read you what Senator Hawley said about this ethics complete, quote, it's a flagrant abuse of the Senate ethics process and a flagrant attempt to exact partisan revenge. What do you say to that?

SMITH: Well, I say that the Senate ethics process is there to make sure that senators are putting the highest moral values or our country first rather than putting first their own personal interests, the interest of their party. That is what we are supposed to be doing here. That is our responsibility. This is not about partisanship. This is about our democracy and whether senators are behaving in a way that holds up the highest values of our democracy.

CABRERA: Democratic Senator Tina Smith, thank you very much for joining us.

SMITH: Thank you, Ana.

CABRERA: Coming up, six in ten Americans say they don't know when they'll get a coronavirus vaccine or where. So how will the Biden administration change that?

Plus, remembering the king of talk, a T.V. legend and a friend to many here at CNN. Larry King has died at the age of 87. We'll remember him with Debbie Allen, Billy Crystal and Robert De Niro.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: I don't know what to say, except to you, my audience, thank you. And instead of goodbye, how about so long?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:00] CABRERA: Welcome back. We have new information about the COVID-19 variant first identified in the U.K. British Prime Minister Boris Johnson now warning this variant isn't only more transmissible but also may be associated with a higher degree of mortality.

Today, however, the director of the National Institutes of Health here in the U.S. said it's still too soon to tell whether this variant is deadlier.

With us now, Infectious Disease Specialist and Epidemiologist at New York's Bellevue -Hospital, Dr. Celine Gounder, She was also a member of the Biden Transition COVID-19 Advisory Board. Dr. Gounder, what does the data show when it comes to this variant first identified in the U.K.? Just how concerned should Americans be as were hearing this could be more deadly?

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, MEMBER, BIDEN TRANSITION COVID-19 ADVISORY BOARD: So when we talk about a virus being more deadly, there are a couple different ways to become more deadly. It can become more virulent, which means it causes more severe disease in a person who's infected or can become more contagious, which means that spreading more easily from person to person.

[15:20:02]

Both can result in more deaths.

What we're seeing right now is that the U.K. strain is certainly more contagious. It is spreading more easily from person to person. And so we are seeing more deaths as a result of that.

The jury is still out on whether the virus is more virulent. So does it cause more severe disease in the person who gets infected with this particular strain? We still are studying that. We don't have a definitive answer yet.

CABRERA: The United Kingdom has the highest death per capita from COVID-19. What is behind that? Could it have anything to do with this new variant?

GOUNDER: Well, certainly, it does. So if more people are infected, even if the disease itself is the same, that means more people are ending up hospitalized, more people are ending up dying. And we've seen hospitals when they get overrun, the likelihood of dying goes up because the staffs in the hospital are just spread too thin and you have more competition for scarce resources like ventilators and the like.

So just the fact that this is a more contiguous variant, that alone will drive an increase in death as we're seeing in the U.K. now.

CABRERA: Let's talk about the vaccine and how people are getting vaccinated here in the U.S., obviously, a key to stopping the spread and protecting people. The Kaiser Family Foundation found that in a about six in ten Americans who were surveyed, they don't know when or where to get a COVID-19 vaccine. The White House chief of staff, Ron Klain, says the Biden Administration going to try to build a national clearing house to provide that information.

So I guess what would you recommend? How should this work? What exactly needs to be done so the most basic questions, where can I get a vaccine, when is it my turn, can be answered?

GOUNDER: Unfortunately, the Biden administration inherited something of a black box when it comes to how many doses are where and when will they be available. So you have doses that are coming off of the manufacturing line. You have doses that are in pharmaceutical company warehouses. Some of those have been, quote, allocated to the states, which means that they essentially have been assigned to certain states but maybe haven't been shipped out yet. And then you have some doses that are in the states and other doses that have made it to facilities.

And if you don't have transparency into where all of those doses are it's very difficult when you're the nurse or the doctor at the facility trying to figure out, okay, I have X number of doses next week, I can schedule that many appointments, if you're only getting a notice a couple days in advance, it's very difficult on the ground to manage the demand and to bring people in.

CABRERA: So what has to happen in order to change that too make that situation go away?

GOUNDER: I mean, this is something that the Biden team is really working on. They started working on right after inauguration, trying to figure out where these doses are. So that is a process of mapping, of trying to figure this out so that they can give much more granular data to people on the ground as to how many doses they can expect. Hopefully, they can do so at least with a week or more notice so that people can schedule appointments, there's a bit more predictability in the supply here.

CABRERA: Okay. Dr. Celine Gounder, as always, thank you.

Coming up, Actress Debbie Allen helps us remember a legend of T.V., a master of interviews, we remember Larry King.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Mr. President, finally, is it hard to come back to the city? Is it hard to drive by the Watergate?

RICHARD NIXON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Well, I've never been in to Watergate. So it's hard to --

KING: Never been in?

NIXON: No, no. Other people were in there though, unfortunately.

KING: So is it hard for you?

NIXON: No, I don't live in the past. As a matter of fact, one of the problems older people when they get together and they always want to reminisce about the past, I don't do that. I like to think about the future.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Good evening. My name is Larry King. And this is the premiere edition of Larry King Live. Every night at this time, we'll be here for one hour. We're going to meet fascinating people from all walks of life, talk to them about things they're interested in. I'll ask some questions, we'll take some calls. We hope that you enjoy this kind of alternative to primetime programming rather than murder, mayhem, sex, violence. We'll bring you all of those but disguised (ph).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: That was his very first show here on CNN. And we are in mourning today. The world has lost an icon but we have lost a member of our CNN family.

Larry King was the unmistakable face and voice of this network for 25 years. And he was everything every journalist and storyteller should be. He was curious, direct, unafraid, he was sensitive and most of all, he was selfless. He made his guests the important ones, never himself.

Larry King was family, in our hearts are broken today. I want you to watch this tribute.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: He was the king of talk.

KING: Who came up with the bunny?

Do you miss it? Was it embarrassing? Well, it's nice to have you here. You know the Dalai Lama well. What is it like to be shot? How do you handle the tabloids? The one thing you didn't answer is why. Was it true that you once thought of taking your own life? Why do you only have one name?

COOPER: From Brando to Broncos --

KING: O.J. Simpson is in that car --

COOPER: -- to Laiza with a Z.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right.

COOPER: (INAUDIBLE) they would guess train wreck.

[15:30:00]

KING: Train wreck?

COOPER: I didn't want to say it, but it was.

Behind that mic, those specs, those iconic suspenders, he was the TV legend who hosted CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE" for a quarter of a century.

(on camera): Do you consider the Frank Sinatra interview the best interview you've ever done?

LARRY KING, FORMER CNN HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": The minute you step out into that spotlight, you have got to know exactly what you're doing.

COOPER: What comes to mind when you think of Monica Lewinsky?

MONICA LEWINSKY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE INTERN: Uh.

COOPER: Are there ever times you can't come up with a question for somebody?

AL GORE, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They weren't there.

(CROSSTALK)

GORE: Let me finish now.

COOPER (voice-over): From political to personal.

(on camera): Heather Mills, McCartney takes off her leg.

KING: That's what you call good risk-taking. And I take risks.

COOPER: He had a career so rich, so deep, that he saw it all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: Joining us now is Tony award-winning actress and choreographer, Debbie Allen.

Debbie, really appreciate you taking the time.

Obviously, it's a sad day. As we reflect on his life, what a legend, what a legacy he leaves behind.

You spent some time with Larry King. I want our viewers to see this great photo of the two of you.

So many heartfelt tributes and great memories are crisscrossing the world today. Tell us about your Larry King interview. What was it like for you?

DEBBIE ALLEN, AWARD-WINNING ACTRESS & CHOREOGRAPHER: Well, I had two interviews with Larry. One was on the eve of the Oscars where Will Smith was so blatantly not nominated for a great performance in "Concussion."

We talked about the diversity of that. And what was changing in this world. I talked to him later and it was still somewhat about what is

happening in the industry. And he asked me this question -- he was always so spontaneous.

I told him the story about being so starstruck when Barack Obama said my name. We laughed about that.

Larry was -- oh, my god, he's part of that golden age of broadcast journalism, Walter Cronkite, Brokaw. It even makes me think about just the good times. Howard, Howard who was so funny, oh, my god.

Larry never needed notes. He had this encyclopedic, I felt, knowledge of whoever he was talking to. He would always just ask those good questions.

He had a -- he was like a good doctor. He had a great bedside manner. Meaning he could be there about something that was very serious. But he would make you comfortable, to where you could feel OK talking about it.

He might be the only person on camera that I talked to about Cosby, because of how he approached it and how he asked the questions.

He's so going to be missed. But, my god, we're going to celebrate his life and speak his name forever.

He left us with so much. So much we're going to replay and replay and hear that voice.

I got a call from him when I was doing a play at the Kennedy Center. He said -- I was so excited that he called, I didn't know why. I need you. I'm like, what? He wanted me to choreograph his wife's, Shawn King's act in Vegas.

CABRERA: Wow.

ALLEN: So I flew back to L.A., flew with him and Shawn on his private plane. He was antsy. Honey, that plane was going too slow. It was getting on his nerves.

(CROSSTALK)

ALLEN: But he was a joy, too.

CABRERA: Yes.

I just want to ask you, because as you describe him, it's so familiar to what we hear from other people who have interacted with him and have had the joy of being on his show or just knowing him as a person.

He was so authentic through and through. What you saw is what you got on the air.

And talk about how he made you feel comfortable, and his brilliance in how he asked questions. Maybe he just had this gift. He used to say he wanted to make sure he wasn't overly prepared for

his interviews. I think that was part of his authenticity. He liked to really listen and he was genuinely curious.

I think that's something, you know, that sometimes we all think we have to be so prepared. We have to know everything. But he wanted to reveal, ask the questions that the audience would be asking as they heard the initial answers.

Do you think that you, you know, taught him something? You mentioned how he wanted you to choreograph. You're known for your legacy of, you know, being involved in theater and art and choreography beyond your acting career.

Did you teach him a thing or two, did you think?

ALLEN: I wasn't teaching him. I was with his wife, Shawn. He wasn't learning any choreography from me.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: In your interviews, in his interview with you, though, when you were talking about the world you know so well.

[15:35:08]

ALLEN: I didn't learn anything. I just felt like I got to know him a little better.

CABRERA: Yes.

ALLEN: It was sobering to be with someone who had been so instrumental to the entire world and their view of royalty, politics, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly, all of that.

To be in a room with him and feel so relaxed, it was like I knew him because he had lived in my living room for so long. But in room -- it was like Howard Cosell. He was a real character. Howard was a character, too, but it was always in the moment.

Like you said, he was curious. I don't know if it wasn't that he wasn't prepared, but he was just really listening.

It's one thing when a journalist is talking to you, trying you to say what they want you to say. It's another thing when they talk to you, listen and hear what you really have to say. That was his gift. That was his gift.

CABRERA: You're in pretty good company with people who have been interviewed by Larry King over the decades, presidents, the Beatles, Olympians, Nobel laureates.

You touched on this a little bit but I can imagine you've been on all kinds of shows. What was it about sitting at a table with Larry King that was different from other interviews?

ALLEN: I can't say it enough. There was something that was very relaxed about it.

I can remember going to be interviewed on "The Today Show." I was nervous because of who was interviewing me. But I didn't feel nervous with him. I felt relaxed, comfortable.

And it was fun. We always laughed. And we always took pictures after. He always wanted to take pictures after. I'm sure he has the most amazing collection of people. They could put together an iconic wall of him and all the people he talked to.

Larry is going to be missed. But you know, he gave us so much. I'm sorry he's gone. And I don't know if it was COVID that took him. He overcame the challenges with cancer, and so many other things, heart surgery.

But God bless him. And I know he's in great hands, and he's with some other great angels right now. Yes, he is.

CABRERA: Absolutely. We don't know what took his life. At this point, the cause of death hasn't been released. We do know he was hospitalized with COVID later in the month.

ALLEN: Yes.

CABRERA: That information is still to come.

But nonetheless, 87 years old. And what a life and a legacy.

Debbie Allen --

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: -- thank you for sharing some of your memories?

ALLEN: Absolutely. My pleasure.

CABRERA: Tonight, CNN remembers Larry King. You can join Anderson Cooper for a special tribute to our colleague, mentor and friend. "THE KING OF TALK, REMEMBERING LARRY KING" starts at 9:00 p.m.

Before that, we'll remember the TV legend right here in the CNN NEWSROOM. Coming up, I will speak with Robert De Niro and Billy Crystal.

Stay tuned. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:42:26]

CABRERA: The start of Joe Biden's presidency might bring an end to one of the biggest lies pushed by the conspiracy theory group. QAnon.

This is what QAnon thought would happen, that Donald Trump would declare martial law as he rounded up a cabal of Democratic pedophiles and evil-doers. Some members of the group believe Trump is Jesus or an alien.

But now, after the inauguration of President Biden, some QAnon believers are now questioning what they blindly followed.

One follower posted this question: "We were promised arrests, exposures, military regime, classified documents. Where is it?"

Also from the "Q" message board: "Anyone else feeling less than beyond let down right now? This is pure hell I'm going through."

"It honestly feels like we were sold out by President Trump. I feel robbed. Filled with grief and anger.

"In a time we needed Trump and "Q" the most, they both shut up and left."

CNN reporter, Donie O'Sullivan, he's been investigating QAnon for some time. He joins us now.

Donie, how is QAnon and this group explaining away that Joe Biden is president and Trump went home to Florida.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN TECHNOLOGY & POLITICS REPORTER: Yes, hey, Ana. Some, as you saw there, some QAnon followers seem to be waking up that they were duped.

There was that one central core belief in QAnon, which they have been told since 2017, which was that Trump one day was going to round up and mass arrest the so-called Deep State.

Of course, that never happened, and many people feel betrayed because they bought into this idea that this was all going to happen and they feel tricked.

I will say there's so many other strands to this conspiracy theory. Even now, a part of this is the lie about the election, that the election was stolen, and many Americans are still buying into that and believes it.

So just as there are some folks who are waking up, there were many others who are not.

CABRERA: Let's listen, because you were speaking with a QAnon supporter on the day of Biden's inauguration. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'SULLIVAN: Do you feel like you've been duped, that you've been tricked, that you've been fooled in some way here?

WILLIAM WIETING, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Actually, no. The way I felt, when I saw -- I was waiting up until the minute that he said "I, Joe Biden." I'm watching him walk up and thinking to myself, my life is about to completely change because I've been saying I'm even a conspiracy theorist or a prophet. O'SULLIVAN: Do you think maybe you might wrong about Joe Biden, being

sworn in, that he might be behind the whole election rigging thing?

WIETING: No, I'm convinced the election was a fraud.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Donie, I'm curious, when you spoke to people on the day of the inauguration, did anything they told you surprise you?

[15:45:06]

O'SULLIVAN: Yes, that gentleman there, William, Wieting, he told me, like many Trump supporters, he said, I'm not a QAnon believer, but there are some parts of the conspiracy I believe.

I met him early in the morning, on inauguration morning, very early. He was streaming live on his YouTube channel to hundreds of thousands of viewers on YouTube.

He was claiming this QAnon-adjacent conspiracy theory that Trump was going to declare martial law and the Biden swearing-in would never actually happen.

Then, of course, when you saw I caught up with him, he had accepted that he had bought in, in some way, to the martial law lie. But still, you know, would still believe and insist the election was stolen.

He also believes the conspiracy theory that it wasn't Trump supporters who were responsible for the insurrection two weeks ago, that it was actually left-wing agitators.

CABRERA: Wow.

Donie O'Sullivan, even though Trump is gone, it sounds like the conspiracy theories aren't necessarily. We know you'll continue to follow this.

Thank you.

Coming up, stunning new reporting from "New York Times" about the length former President Trump was willing to go to stay in power, including a plot to oust his then-acting attorney general. Could it be included in the impeachment trial? "CROSS EXAM" with Elie Honig is next.

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[15:50:46]

CABRERA: We're learning stunning new details about the lengths former President Trump was willing to go in order to try to stay in power.

"The New York Times" is reporting there was a plot to oust Trump's then-acting attorney general to install loyalists, and then wield the Justice Department's power to force Georgia state lawmakers to overturn Georgia's election results.

The only reason he seemingly didn't was because Justice Department officials unanimously threatened to resign.

I want to discuss with this CNN legal analyst and former federal and state prosecutor, Ellie Honig. He's here to answer your questions this hour.

Elie, one viewer wants to know: What could be the potential legal consequences of efforts by Trump and others to overturn those election results in Georgia?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Ana, another jaw-dropping revelation about the former president's effort to steal that election in Georgia. This time, by pushing DOJ to investigate and potentially charge utterly baseless criminal cases.

At a minimum, that's an abuse of power. It does real damage to DOJ's independence and credibility.

Donald Trump may not care about that. He's never been big on DOJ's institutional values.

But here's something he should care about. This could hurt Donald Trump in his upcoming impeachment trial.

House managers can use this evidence to show Donald Trump had a longstanding coordinated plan to try to steal this election. And they would argue that what happened on January 6th was a natural outcome and extension of that effort.

Also, this could be relevant to potential criminal charges. The Fulton County district attorney down in Atlanta already said she will investigate without fear or favor the president's call to the Georgia secretary of state. We remember that from a few weeks ago.

So again, this could prove that the president had a longer-term coordinated plan to steal Georgia.

Obviously, Ana, this is a big story. It will have ripple effects and it could have real consequences for Donald Trump.

CABRERA: We know Chuck Schumer, the new Senate majority leader, is asking for inspector general investigation into this report and these allegations.

Another viewer wants to know this: Given that Donald Trump is now the former president, will the chief justice still preside at his impeachment trial?

HONIG: Yes, this a great question. The Constitution says, when the president is tried, the chief justice shall preside. As we saw last year, Donald Trump was president when he was impeached and tried. And so Chief Justice John Roberts presided over the trial.

The problem now is Donald Trump is no longer the president. He's a former president. But there's only one the president and that's Joe Biden.

So what are the other options? Could be Vice President Kamala Harris, in her institutional role as the presiding officer of the Senate.

Could be Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy, now the president pro tem of the Senate.

But the problem with those options is they create at least an appearance of a conflict of interest. For example, Vice President Harris just finished running on a ticket against Donald Trump. That could happen again in 2024, in fact, pending the results of this trial.

So it will come down to who the Senate invites, who accepts the invitation.

I think the best solution for all involved is Chief Justice Roberts. He's done it before. And he'll eliminate any appearance of a conflict of interest.

CABRERA: As far as the timeline, we know former President Trump was impeached by the House for a second time more than a week ago, week and a half ago. But these articles of impeachment have yet to make their way to the Senate.

And last night, Democrats and Republicans agreed for the trial to start the week of February 8th.

So here's the question from our viewer: Who benefits, strategically, from the two-week delay until the trial starts?

HONIG: Yes, so that's a really important strategic question. Generally speaking, as a prosecutor or whoever's responsible for putting on a case, sooner is better.

Witnesses' memories are fresh. Evidence is more available. And it feels more immediate, more urgent to the jury or, in this case, to the Senate and the American public.

On the flip side, the longer this is delayed, the more we learn about what happened.

For example, just hours ago, we learned about the threat to assassinate Representative Ocasio-Cortez.

So this delay, Ana, is really going to be a double-edged sword.

CABRERA: OK, Elie Honig, as always, great information.

Thanks for being our guide.

HONIG: Thanks for having me.

CABRERA: Still to come, much on the life of CNN legend, Larry King. I'll talk with Billy Crystal in just a moment.

But first, I want to leave you with this iconic Larry King moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[15:55:02]

JANET JACKSON, SINGER: See?

KING: OK. And this --

JACKSON: This. Hit your chest and push your arm out.

KING: Same arm?

JACKSON: Yes. And let the leg go out at the same time. There you go.

Bring this leg in, put the hand down.

Hit your chest and push it out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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CABRERA: You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

[15:59:57]

We begin with news of a profound loss here today, a lost felt deeply here at CNN. Broadcasting legend and icon, Larry King, a member of our CNN family, has passed away at age 87.