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Dems Push To Give Parents $3,000 Per Child During Pandemic; Biden Phones Leaders Of Mexico, Canada, U.K.; Man Charged With Threatening To Assassinate Rep. Ocasio-Cortez; Trump Senate Impeachment Trial Set To Start Next Month; COVID-19 Has Now Spread To Nearly 25 Million People In U.S.; Prospects To Convict Trump Erode As Republicans Grow Critical of Impeachment Proceedings; Legendary Talk Show Host Larry King Dies at 87; QAnon Believers Fractured After Biden Inauguration. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired January 23, 2021 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Well, tonight a Texas man is charged with posting online death threats against Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

Plus, tackling the economic crisis, President Joe Biden is proposing to expand the child tax credit, sending monthly payments up to $300 per child to American families.

Also, as the new Biden administration works to ramp up vaccinations, the U.S. approaches another pandemic milestone, 25 million total cases of COVID-19.

And the world of broadcasting has lost a legend, longtime CNN Host Larry King has died at the age of 87.

I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM on the Saturday evening. And we begin this evening at the White House where President Joe Biden is laying out an ambitious plan for his first 100 days in office.

CNN White House Correspondent John Harwood joins me now. So John, is Biden on track to follow through on his early promises? That's a big question tonight.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, some he will follow through on. And, of course, he is implementing executive orders to create a Pandemic Testing Board, to invoke the Defense Production Act, to expand production of vaccines.

He's committed to 100 million vaccination doses in 100 days. That is a low goal. He is almost certainly under promising in hopes of over delivering, and - but it's going to take some time to ramp up that production. And most importantly, of course, the president needs to try to get that COVID relief package that he's proposed, $1.9 trillion, through the Congress. He's trying initially to do that with both Republican and Democratic votes.

His Economic Adviser Brian Deese is about to have a phone call tomorrow with 16 Republican and Democratic senators who could be key to negotiating some sort of a compromise, probably bring the price tag of that COVID relief package down.

But he needs some early momentum, not just in the executive orders he signed, which will have some effect, but limited, but also with that legislative proposal on COVID so key to both getting the pandemic under control, which in turn is the key to turning the economy around.

BROWN: And what are we learning, John, about the president's first calls with foreign leaders?

HARWOOD: Well, he's had three initial calls that we've gotten readouts for with close allies, all of whom - those alliances had been strained to various degrees under President Trump. He talked to British Prime Minister Boris Johnson.

They talked about the importance of the NATO relationship, which is something that Donald Trump had called into question. They talked about climate change. Boris Johnson and Joe Biden are on the same page there. Johnson welcomed Biden's decision to rejoin the Paris Climate Accords.

With President Lopez Obrador of Mexico, the President talked about immigration. Of course, Donald Trump's immigration policies had strained relations with Mexico. Joe Biden is trying to get that back on track.

And with Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau, they did have a point of disagreement. Joe Biden in pursuant to his climate change agenda revoked the permit for the XL pipeline, which goes from Canada all the way down to the Gulf of Mexico. That was a disappointment to Prime Minister Trudeau. Campaign promises for Joe Biden. That's something that they'll have to work out.

And with all three leaders, Pam, they talked about the importance of the COVID-19 pandemic. That is a universal problem around the world.

BROWN: All right, John Harwood, thank you so much.

Meantime, a Texas man who allegedly participated in the Capitol insurrection is now being charged with threatening to assassinate Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. CNN's Jessica Schneider is following the very latest. So Jessica, what have we learned about this?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, another major arrest connected to that January 6th Capitol attack. This time against a Texas man accused of posting online death threats, not only against Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, but also against a Capitol Police Officer.

Now, prosecutors say Garrett Miller of Texas tweeted "assassinate AOC" and also said the police officer who fatally shot a female Trump supporter inside the Capitol, "deserves to die" and also said won't survive long because, "it's hunting season."

Now, officials say Miller participated in the Capitol attack and then post it extensively on social media before and after the attack saying, a civil war could start, and then also next time we bring guns.

[19:05:00]

Now Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez has been very vocal in the days after the attack. She's talked about how she and other members weren't sure they'd make it out alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): I had a very close encounter where I thought I was going to die. It is not an exaggeration to say that many, many members of the House were nearly assassinated. It's just not an exaggeration to say that at all. We were very lucky that things happened within certain minutes. That allowed members to escape the House floor unharmed. But many of us nearly narrowly escaped death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHNEIDER: This man who posted those threats against AOC is facing five federal criminal charges, including for his participation in the attack, as well as the death threats.

Now, Garrett Miller's attorney is telling CNN, his client regrets the threats, and also says this, "he did it in support of former President Donald Trump, but he regrets his actions." He has the support of his family and a lot of the comments are viewed in context as really sort of misguided political hyperbole. Given the political divide these days, there is a lot of hyperbole.

And, of course, this is yet another suspect who has said they were inspired by the president to attack the Capitol. At this point, more than 120 people have been charged, hundreds more could still be charged as prosecutors now zero in on that next round of charges that will likely be even more serious against those people who evaded law enforcement so far, and the charges could include sedition and conspiracy that, of course, means hefty sentences of up to 20 years in prison. Pamela?

BROWN: All right. Jessica Schneider, thank you very much.

Meantime, the second impeachment trial of Donald Trump has become an unexpected subplot in President Biden's first 100 days. The Article of Impeachment will be delivered to the Senate on Monday. And adding a new layer to this, a stunning "New York Times" report that shed light on how Donald Trump tried to use the Justice Department in his scheme to overturn the election.

CNN Congressional Correspondent Ryan Nobles joins me now from Capitol Hill. So what's the latest on the impeachment trial, Ryan?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pam, you mentioned that "New York Times" report today about what was going on in the Justice Department in the closing days of the Trump administration. And already, the Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer tweeted about it tonight, suggesting that it could become part of the president's impeachment trial that is scheduled to take place on February 8th.

And you talk about the timeline. Yes, those Articles of Impeachment will be brought over to the Senate on Monday, and the senators sworn in and a presiding judge picked by Tuesday. But then there's going to be about a two-week period of time where the former president is going to be able to get his legal ducks in a row and prepare for that trial.

Now, Republicans were initially pushing for this. They said that the president deserved an opportunity to build a legal team and prepare his arguments. But we're already finding out that this could also be a problem for the former president, because more information could come out between now and when the trial takes place. It could be damaging to his case.

Now, the Democrats need 17 Republicans to cross party lines and vote to convict President Trump. At this point, our reporting shows that there's probably not enough votes for that to take place. But Pam, as more information comes out, and the lobbying effort begins, and then we find out what the now Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell plans to do.

That could change things, regardless if you talk about how it's impacting the beginning of the Biden administration. This actually opens the door for President Biden to get many of his cabinet picks confirmed. At this point very few of them are on the job already. And the former - the current president, I should say, we'd like to put President Trump in the rearview mirror and begin the work of his agenda. Pam.

BROWN: All right, Ryan Nobles live forests on Capitol Hill. Ryan, thanks so much for coming on the Saturday evening, much appreciated.

Meantime, the events of the Capitol that led to the impeachment and trial are stunning in scope as we've been talking about. A U.S. Capitol Police officer and four others died, while other rioters assaulted police officers and allegedly hunted down members of Congress who narrowly escaped the mob.

Experts believe that this could open the floodgates for more political unrest. CNN Senior Political Analyst David Gergen joins me now. He was an advisor to President Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and Clinton. I can't imagine having a better voice on the show about where we are on - as a country right now. David Gergen.

The CNN poll shows that 75 percent of Republicans have a little confidence that the U.S. elections reflect the will of the people. If you were advising President Biden, how would you begin to tackle this widespread dangerous notion?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think the most important thing he can do is to put some wins on the scoreboard in terms of tackling the COVID problem. The earlier we can get that under control, the more credibility President Biden will have, and he can move on to jobs and these other issues.

[19:10:00]

I do think, Pamela that he has set a good tone so far, both in his inaugural address and the whole way he and his team have been approaching this. He's been - he hasn't been hyperbolic. He hasn't gone out and tried to knock Donald Trump, didn't mention Trump's name in inaugural address.

He's collected a very professional team around him. The professionalism we saw at the inaugural, I think, sends a signal that this is a good operation that they've got underway. There haven't been a lot of leaks out of this crowd. So I think they have a lot of strengths already.

But to go back to Ryan's point, the fact that they've now got an agreement, and a good agreement, I think it's a win-win for both sides with McConnell. That McConnell gets the two week delay, so the Trump defense team can get organized.

But at the same time, he's opened up and agreed to that the Biden team can get a lot of their confirmations done during this process. So I think that's a good sign and one of cooperation, but big problems ahead, trying to get legislation through a lot of big problems. We forget that President Obama got three or four wins early on it first month - big wins and it's going to be helpful to President Biden if he can get those three or four.

BROWN: Right, that's really what he's trying to maneuver right now. He's got that $1.9 trillion COVID package and a lot of other plans that would need to go through Congress in order to pass in the first 100 days that he's proposed. So it is a tricky balance for him how to maneuver that.

I want to get your reaction to something that Congressman Madison Cawthorn told me in the last hour when I asked him why he voted to decertify the election results even after the January 6th riots.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MADISON CAWTHORN (R-NC): As despicable was events on January 6th were, it didn't actually affect my thought process on objecting to the election. You see, I wasn't objecting to President Biden himself, and I wasn't doing it on behalf of President Trump. I was doing it on behalf of the Constitution.

I think in key six - six key swing states, it's particularly in Wisconsin, you can see that the state legislature who is the sole body that is supposed to dictate the law that circumvents and is around all of our election laws was circumvented. They subverted the state legislators there and I believe that's a constitutional infraction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And again, there was no evidence to back up some of the claims he was making, as we discussed during that interview. But then at the end, he did come around to saying that Joe Biden was duly elected, and it was a fair election and the election wasn't stolen.

But just going back to this, people like him and other GOP leaders have been spreading, fanning the flames. And, there is this concern about followers really believing that now that that Joe Biden is not the legitimate president, even though we just had one of the people who was part of that effort admit that, yes, he's legitimate, the election really wasn't stolen and there was really no evidence of widespread fraud. Well, how do you change that?

GERGEN: I think this is going to be very hard. It's going to be a long-term process. We shouldn't expect to change it overnight. After all, when Congressman Cawthorn - voted down the certification, 95 percent of the Republicans in Congress voted down that sort certification.

70 percent of the people in Congress in the Republican side voted for impeachment. So you've got - this is going to be hard to turn around. The - one of the biggest objections to President Trump and his team was how they injected this poisonous set of beliefs into their party and made it much more dangerous and made it much harder for Joe Biden to govern.

It was almost as if they intentionally tried to kneecap Joe Biden, so that he could not govern. That's the reason I think that it's going to be hard to out argue. Biden can't come in and just sort of suddenly proclaim truth.

He's got to win credibility through his actions. And I think that's why it's so important that he gets some early substantive wins under his belt, so that he shows that he's a serious president who can inspire people, who is very competent, who has the country's best interest at heart. That will bring people behind him.

If he can rally the country, Pam, if he can get 60 percent of the country behind him, he will have a lot more leverage in working with the Republicans in Congress. They will pay attention to that. They may not pay attention to his words, but they will pay attention to his deeds.

BROWN: But doesn't he need the help of Republican leadership in Congress--

GERGEN: Yes.

BROWN: --to help him get support of the public to trust him?

GERGEN: He - well, let's put it this way. It would help a lot if some Republicans would come out and support him. And if they would say, I want to work with this president and try to work things out on the budget, for example. That would make a major difference. To somehow provide aid and to make sure that these vaccinations take place that he's been promising.

[19:15:00]

He still he's got a very large promise out there and it may not work. Europeans are having trouble right now with their vaccinations. And with this new variant - the virus that is out there. We're going to have some more - Joe Biden's going to have some more twists and turns in his time in office a lot in the next few weeks. But if he could get a few more Republicans like Mitt Romney to come on board and say, they want to work with him, I think, that would help a lot.

What I one of the things I think we should expect is that President Biden will start inviting Republicans and Democrats to come see him in the White House. You're going to see more bipartisan meetings than we ever saw under the Trump administration.

Remember that famous picture of Nancy Pelosi walking out on Trump, because they had an explosion with a leadership?

BROWN: Yes, how can you forget?

GERGEN: They will never see that with Joe Biden. How can we forget?

BROWN: How can we forget that?

GERGEN: I don't think - Pamela, I don't think we'll ever see that with Joe Biden. He's such decent guy, that you got to sort of like him. And he's passionate. And I think that McConnell is going to want to work with him on some issues, not every issue. They're going to have a lot of knockdown, drag outs.

But I think it gets some issues that it would give the country confidence that we've actually got a team that can make Washington work again, that would be such a relief. People were already highly relieved by the inaugural address, the inaugural festivities. They - there's - you could just hear the sigh of relief all over the country.

But everybody knows that's only the first step. The important steps are still to come. And that means we have - the Republicans - this is not just a test of Joe Biden it's a test of the Republican Party. Are they going to be a responsible party? Are they going to put party above? Are they going to put the country above party? Those are big questions.

And if they don't do that, I frankly think that the Republican Party could be on the road to oblivion if they don't - if they refuse to work with Joe Biden, when their interests are congruent.

BROWN: OK. Well, we'll have to wait and see. And, of course, the big test is ahead for Joe Biden. So we'll be watching all of that and having you back on the show hopefully. David Gergen, thank you so much.

GERGEN: OK. Pamela, thank you. Thank you. It's good to see you again. BROWN: You too. Well, as the U.S. reaches the grim milestone of 400,000 lives, lots of the coronavirus, hospitals around the country are being pushed to the brink, you'll hear from a doctor on the frontlines.

Plus, will remember the king of talk, the broadcasting icon and a dear friend to so many right here at CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: I don't know what to say except to you, my audience, thank you and instead of good-bye, how about so long?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[19:20:00]

BROWN: Well, within the next few hours, the U.S. is set to cross a previously unfathomable threshold. Let's look at the COVID by the numbers right here on your screen. We are on the cusp of 25 million COVID-19 cases since the pandemic first surfaced in the United States one year ago.

It began in the U.S. on January 21st of last year when a Washington man tested positive after traveling to Wuhan China. Remember that a year ago. And look at the death toll numbers. This weekend deaths in the U.S. have surged to more than 416,000. To put that into perspective, that is 11,000 more than all of the Americans killed during World War II. The U.S. is now averaging more than 3,000 COVID linked deaths each day.

So let's turn to hospitalizations where we get some rare good news. We've seen a drop in the number of people needing hospital care for 10 days in a row. And there are now just over 116,000 COVID patients in U.S. hospitals according to The COVID Tracking Project's latest update.

And then one more number to list today for you, more than 20 million vaccine doses have now been injected into arms across the U.S. In the State of Georgia COVID is overwhelming frontline workers. This week, Georgia surpassed more than 700,000 confirmed COVID-19 cases since the pandemic began. A surge of deaths moved the state from 43rd out of 50 states to 14th.

Georgia hospitals are so stressed, so much so that my next guest's hospital has had to treat patients in hallways and at times in ambulances. Dr. Deepak Aggarwal is the Chief of Medical Staff at Northeast Georgia Medical Center just north of Atlanta. I thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Aggarwal.

DEEPAK AGGARWAL, CHIEF OF MEDICAL STAFF, NORTHEAST GEORGIA MEDICAL CENTER: Hi, Pamela. Thanks for having me.

BROWN: How urgent is the situation on the ground where you are right now?

AGGARWAL: We truly are in the darkest days of this pandemic. We are seeing more than 200 patients per day now that we normally see at this time of the year. And also we are dealing with an increasing number of deaths. Our system normally deals with less than 10 deaths per month and we have already had 169 deaths as of January 21st.

BROWN: So what does that look like practically for you and for nurses trying to manage the influx of patients? What does that actually look like on the ground?

AGGARWAL: It has taken - I mean, our - it has taken an emotional toll on our staff. And - but at the same time, they have done a tremendous job in caring for the patients. They have had to treat patients in the hallways, in the tents and even had to start treatment in the ambulances.

BROWN: So what does that look like? Is this - are you concerned that the hospital will have to ration care given what you just laid out there. That some of them are having to be treated in the in the hallways, in the ambulances before?

[19:25:00]

AGGARWAL: Yes, maybe I'm fortunate that we haven't had to ration care yet, or even turn away a patient from the ER. But if the surge intensifies further, we will have to face - we will have to make some tough decisions. Our COVID numbers after Thanksgiving, it doubled. We were averaging about 130 to 240 and then we went to about 300 in the in the days following the Thanksgiving and in January.

BROWN: Wow. Well, thank you for all of your work on the front lines. And as you said, it's taken an emotional toll on all of you. Just thanks for keeping it up. The country needs you and all the other doctors and nurses and staff helping on the frontlines.

Dr. Deepak Aggarwal, thank you. Thank you.

AGGARWAL: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, Nancy Pelosi will send the Article of Impeachment to the Senate on Monday and now new reporting on the efforts by former President Trump to stay in power, including a last-ditch plan to fire the Acting Attorney General.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:30:56]

BROWN: Well, former President Trump may be out of office but stunning details about his effort to overturn the 2020 election keep emerging.

"The New York Times" reports that Trump considered firing Bill Barr's replacement and installing a loyalist as Attorney General who hatched a plan to use the D.O.J. to overturn Joe Biden's victory in Georgia.

Now Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer is calling for a probe into the alleged scheme, a scheme which my source confirmed today.

I'm joined by CNN contributor and Republican election lawyer Ben Ginsberg. He helped lead the G.O.P.'s Board of Recount Strategy in 2000. Nice to see you, Ben. Put this in perspective for us. Just how serious is this?

BENJAMIN GINSBERG, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It's pretty serious. But first of all, I'm honored to be on your first show. Congratulations.

BROWN: Thank you.

GINSBERG: This is really serious for a President of the United States to be trying to manipulate a conspiracy for his acting Attorney General by going around him, get the person he was talking to try and actually impact the Department of Justice probes into voter fraud in Georgia when they found there was nothing there.

So it's a serious matter that certainly will be added to the impeachment count.

BROWN: So today, Senator Schumer tweeted in part, the Justice Department Inspector General must launch an investigation into this attempted sedition now. What do you think? Do you agree that that investigation should be launched?

GINSBERG: Well, I think it's sort of legitimate to launch an investigation, but honestly, the investigation would not be on time to have any impact on the impeachment.

So I think the major import of what "The New York Times" did was the effect it is going to have on Republican senators, essentially, the waivable jury part of the impeachment proceedings, when they have to also justify this really unprecedented intrusion into the normal functioning of the Justice Department.

BROWN: And then you look at the big picture, this D.O.J. scheme, Trump's call pressuring Georgia's Secretary of State to find votes, his attempt to influence state lawmakers, his lies about the election. Do you think that there is a reasonable chance that Trump will face seditious conspiracy charges?

GINSBERG: Well, I think that's already more or less the Article of Impeachment he is going to face. What I think is really interesting about "The New York Times" reporting is that essentially, it confirms the level of detail the President developed in his scheme with what he did in Georgia, what he's done with various Republican state legislators.

And there's a shocking report in "Vanity Fair" today about how Trump told the Acting Secretary of Defense that he was going to need 10,000 National Guards and the President made that statement the night before insurrection.

So Republican senators are going to be thinking, wow, if we vote to acquit, what else is going to come back? BROWN: And I don't know that we have actually confirmed that "Vanity Fair" report, but I'm curious, Ben, when you look at all the evidence and then we have reporting that Republicans do not appear poised to have enough votes to actually convict Donald Trump and remove him.

As a Republican yourself, what is your reaction to that?

GINSBERG: Well, my reaction to that is twofold. Number one, I certainly think that a fair reading of the evidence and what their duty is will bring them around to conviction. But I also think if you're a Republican senator right now, why would you announce that you wanted to convict Donald Trump and bring the wrath of the mob on you for this two-week period?

And I think there's also a sense that in the next two weeks, there can be additional evidence developed, especially as more and more of the people who broke into the Capitol are interrogated by investigators.

And I think they're all going to be looking for evidence that comes out of that. If the President or any of his any allies in the White House were talking to the people who led the insurrection, that's a serious piece of evidence that could come up in the impeachment trial.

[19:35:32]

BROWN: All right, Ben Ginsberg, a pleasure to have you on this Saturday evening and for the launch of my new show. Appreciate it.

GINSBERG: You bet.

BROWN: Well, as we know, the world lost an icon and we, at CNN lost a member of our family, Larry King. He was the face and the voice of this network for more than 25 years.

Bob Costas, who occasionally filled in for Larry King joins me live, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY KING, FORMER CNN HOST: The funny thing about Mel Brooks, history of the world, part two.

MEL BROOKS, COMEDIAN: Wait a minute, I want to do something. I want to see how I look as you for a minute. Where's the camera? Now, it's a funny thing about Mel Brooks. History of the world.

Now, I'm trying to do you, wait a minute. Wait, I've got to --

KING: I'll try to do you.

BROOKS: You try to do me. Now, when I first met you -- wait. A little bit to the side of the mouth. Okay, no, no.

KING: Do me, and I'll introduce you. BROOKS: All right. Mel, when I first met --

KING: Here is a bit of a question --

BROOKS: You were so short, and now it seems -- now, this the way you talk. Mel, when I first met you, you were so short. And now it seems that you're even shorter. What happened during the interim, Mel?

[19:40:32]

KING: Do I know -- so I notice, I come here to do -- I come here to make a living. That's what I'm here for. I'm here to make a living. I'm here to sell a movie.

BROOKS: I just realized you don't -- you can't see your guests.

KING: You just realized that.

BROOKS: You're legally blind. I don't know what the hell's going on.

KING: Can I take a break and come back? I had a deluge of questions. I had a real good question. We will also take phone calls, but I can't see the number.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The television world has lost an icon, and here at CNN, we have lost a longtime colleague, mentor and friend.

Talk host, Larry King passed away today at the age of 87. His cause of death has not been released, but a source close to the family tells us that he was in the hospital since December because of coronavirus.

And although Larry King can never be replaced, my next guest has come as close as possible, close as one possibly could. Bob Costas was a substitute host on "Larry King Live." He is also a CNN contributor. Thank you so much for coming on, Bob.

BOB COSTAS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Pam.

BROWN: I can't imagine what that must have been like to fill the shoes of Larry King as his substitute and being so intimately involved in his show over so many years and knowing him personally. Tell me what first came to mind when you heard the news.

COSTAS: Well, it did not come as a shock because I knew Larry had been ill, I'd been in touch with him and his family over the over the years and over the last few months. So it didn't come as a shock.

But still, it's a milestone. He absolutely was iconic. He was a legend. That word is tossed around too freely sometimes. But clearly, he was a legend.

And throughout the day today on CNN, correctly, his role in CNN, especially at the outset, giving it credibility, his global reach, because it was seen around the world his ability to bring not just U.S. political figures, but world leaders onto his program, how important that nightly show was to the history of CNN, all that stuff is true.

But no one at least that I've heard has mentioned how great his mutual radio show was, which he did as well as the CNN show for many years. But it was on the year before he came to CNN.

That program which ran overnight for like three or four hours was incredible. He'd have Henry Kissinger one night, Mary Tyler Moore the next night and Sugar Ray Leonard the night after that.

But while he was talking to Henry Kissinger or Jesse Jackson, Carl Reiner might call in from his home in LA, or Albert Brooks would get on the phone with a hilarious riff. That was pure broadcasting.

And I've often felt that as great an interviewer as Larry was in his own way, he was an even better interviewee. He was a fabulous storyteller.

I encourage people to go on YouTube and look for the story that Larry tells, he told it on Jimmy Kimmel, he told it to me at one time or another, so it's out there somewhere on YouTube, the story of his high school friend, Mapo. It goes on for six or seven minutes. Not only is it a hilarious story, but this is broadcasting at its finest.

The way he lets this story spin out, the pacing of it, the little side notes and parenthetical aspects to it. He was a tremendous broadcaster.

BROWN: I'm glad you called attention to that, because you're so right. So many people remember him as the one asking questions, but he was an incredible storyteller.

And one, he was a master of asking the question, right, of asking just a short question that would elicit really a remarkable answer from his guests, whoever it may be from Robert De Niro to Paris Hilton. I mean, like you just named the range of people.

What do you think it was about Larry that could get people to just open up by asking simple, short, concise questions?

COSTAS: Well, it was his natural curiosity. It was his style. It was the fact that while he would probe, he was never confrontational, so people felt comfortable.

I asked him once, define your style for me. And he said, okay, there's a fire. Ted Koppel arrives at the fire. He says to the fire chief, what caused this fire? I say what made you want to be a fireman? That was Larry.

Sometimes, especially late in his career, we have to be honest, he wasn't exactly voluminously prepared, and he almost wore that as a badge of honor. So his go to question late was something like, Donald Trump, controversial. What do you make of it? The question would always end with, what do you make of it?

BROWN: What do you make of it? Because, he already had so much credibility by that point, it didn't matter.

COSTAS: Yes, it was kind of open ended, you know.

[19:45:08]

BROWN: Yes, I mean, exactly. And he still got a great answer. You know, and you talked about how just CNN really owes him a debt of gratitude, because he helped give CNN credibility.

You had the first Gulf War and Larry King. These were the things that really put CNN on the map elevating us to a full-fledged network.

If you would, just expand on how impactful "Larry King Live" was to this industry we're in and to really the world at large.

COSTAS: Well, it was not only nationwide, as we said, it was worldwide. And over the course of a week, you'd have this eclectic collection of guests, some goofy and lighthearted, some very, very serious, and he was able to handle that range of guests.

And that was kind of the hub of CNN's primetime programming for many, many years. That hour of Larry King was kind of the signature of CNN before other things developed out of that.

Just another aside, if you'll forgive me for taking it in this direction. He used to have a column on Mondays in "U.S.A. Today," which research showed was the most read single item every week in "U.S.A. Today."

Billy Crystal mentioned this a few hours ago with Ana Cabrera, and it might have been the precursor to Twitter, because it was just whatever popped into Larry's head, it must have taken him 15 minutes to write it. And it would be it would be observations like starlets may come and go, but nobody ever sizzled on the screen like Dorothy Lemoore.

Sometimes when I close my eyes, I can still see Jackie Robinson at Ebbets Field. Give me a poppy seed bagel with a schmear of cream cheese at Nathan House, and you're looking at a happy man.

And no one else would do that. No one else could do that. But I'll tell you this, I never missed it. I never missed it.

BROWN: Man, and you said you had talked to him recently. You stayed in touch with him clearly. So it's just so good to hear your perspective and your view of the legacy that Larry King leaves behind.

It's so sad to note he is he has now gone along with Hank Aaron recently as well. Just really sad to note the loss of these two legends.

Bob Costas, thank you so much for coming on.

COSTAS: Thank you, Pam. Congratulations on the new show. And to sum it up about Larry, he was truly one of a kind. No one else like him.

Others may have been great in their own way, but he was uniquely great in his own Larry King way.

BROWN: And, as you said when he signed off his last show, he said, I don't want to say goodbye. I want to say so long. So, so long, Larry King.

Well, now that President Joe Biden has been inaugurated, some members of the conspiracy theory group QAnon are questioning what they blindly followed for years. We're going to talk about what's next for them and the beliefs they cling to, coming up.

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[19:52:25]

BROWN: Well, for years and years, said the QAnon conspiracy theory believed that members of a supposedly satanic pedophilia ring would suddenly be exposed in the highest ranks of government and Hollywood rounded up, maybe even execute it. They believed that Donald Trump was working behind the scenes as the hero and that they were so sure he would stay in power despite losing the election.

Well, even early on Inauguration Day, they kept the faith.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: How are you going to feel when Biden is inaugurated at noon today?

WILLIAM WIETING, TRUMP SUPPORTER: You're going to ask me that. I don't believe -- this sounds so crazy and I recognize how crazy this sounds, but I don't believe Joe Biden is going to be sworn in as President today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So then, after the Inauguration, which supporters said would never happen, many were left disillusioned. CNN's Donie O'Sullivan talked to that same Trump supporter after Biden took the oath.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER: Do you feel like you've been duped? That you've been tricked? That you've been fooled in some way here?

WIETING: Actually, no. The way I felt was I when I saw -- you know, I was looking up until a minute that he said, "I, Joe Biden," like I'm watching him walk up, I'm thinking to myself, my life is about to completely change. Because I've been saying, I'm either a conspiracy theorist or I'm a prophet, you know, kind of like this kind of Christian humor, I'm not a prophet.

But I was just kind of in shock, and I thought I had to reevaluate everything the way my life was going to be now, because it's so -- it's so different than my expectations. And I literally was just kind of walking around like, what now? (END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But despite that admission, he still believes the election was rigged.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'SULLIVAN: Do you think maybe the way you're wrong with Joe Biden been sworn in, you might be wrong about the whole election rigging thing?

WIETING: No, I am convinced the election was fraud.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Donie O'Sullivan joins me now. Donie, great to see you. You've talked to so many of similar people like the man you were just speaking to there who have these unfounded beliefs. What can be done to actually help people -- these people come back to reality, so to speak?

It seems as though it's more of an emotional attachment than something that they're actually thinking through rationally?

O'SULLIVAN: Yes, I mean, you know, a lot of viewers watching right now are going to have family members, moms or dads or sons or daughters who believe some of this stuff and you know, there are degrees of QAnon believers, not all QAnon believers are equal.

They're the tugs who attacked the Capitol a few weeks ago, you know, in the name of this conspiracy theory, but there are a lot of people -- there are a lot of good people who have bought into elements of this, parts of this conspiracy theory, sometimes people don't even realize that they're necessarily buying into something that is QAnon, they just see something so much over and over and over again on Facebook.

[19:55:13]

O'SULLIVAN: And you know, I think if somebody has a family member who is at this inflection point, it's a time for compassion and to listen to that person because I think, you know, if we don't treat people with compassionate and listen to them and try to pull them out of this, it's very possible that they might go down darker and more deeper rabbit holes of darker conspiracies online.

BROWN: Right. And that's a problem. There are so many avenues for them to go down online, and so that's part of the issue here, to pull them out of this.

Donie O'Sullivan, thank you for bringing this to our attention and for bringing us the latest reporting there. We appreciate it.

O'SULLIVAN: Thanks, Pam.

BROWN: Up next, new reporting on how then President Trump tried to use the Department of Justice to overturn his election loss and what that could mean for the upcoming impeachment trial. We will be back, up next.

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