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Biden Phones World Leaders To Discuss Policy Changes; Trump Plotted To Fire Acting A.G. In Last-Ditch Effort To Overturn Election Loss; Remembering Larry King; Experts Support U.K. Decision To Delay Second Dose; Transportation Workers Struggle As Travel Industry Stalls; Republicans Reject Biden's Relief Plan; Cautious Optimism In California Despite Bad Numbers; The Pain Of Working On The Pandemic's Frontlines. Aired 1-2a ET
Aired January 24, 2021 - 01:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Hello, everyone, and welcome to Studio 7 here at CNN Center in Atlanta. I am Michael Holmes.
Coming up on CNN NEWSROOM, new revelations about what Donald Trump would do to keep his grip on power. How he allegedly tried to coerce the Justice Department to overturn the election.
Also transportation workers, essential in any country, are especially hard hit during this pandemic. We'll take a look at how their daily struggles might get a little help here in the U.S.
And remembering the one and only Larry King, a legend here at CNN but also for the world of broadcasting.
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HOLMES: With Donald Trump now out of office, new details are trickling out about how far he was allegedly willing to go to stay in power. "The Wall Street Journal" now reporting that he pushed the Justice Department to ask the Supreme Court to void Joe Biden's election victory.
And sources tell CNN Trump planned to fire his acting attorney general and replace him with a loyalist who would support false claims about election fraud. Trump's relentless attacks on the election led to the deadly Capitol riot and, of course, his second impeachment.
And there are some very serious new developments stemming from the investigation of that Capitol siege. The Texas man you see there, charged with threatening to kill Democratic congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and a Capitol police officer.
So could the news of Trump's alleged scheming affect his impeachment trial in the Senate?
CNN's Ryan Nobles looks at the potential impact. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The impeachment trial of former president Donald Trump is now beginning to take shape here on Capitol Hill. On Monday, the House will send over the articles of impeachment, starting the clock on the trial itself. On Monday the senators will be sworn in. On Tuesday they'll pick a presiding judge.
But the trial itself won't begin until February 8th. That gives the former president roughly two weeks to get his legal house in order in time for the trial to begin.
Now Republicans pushed for that. They believe that that was part of the due process that the former president should be afforded. But it also comes with an issue for president Trump because, in that time frame, more information could come out that could be damaging to his legal case.
Like for instance, this "New York Times" bombshell that came out over the weekend, that suggests the president was putting pressure on members of the Justice Department to look for examples of voter fraud that would help him overturn the election.
Now that's not directly connected to the Capitol insurrection but, remember, impeachment is not a legal argument. It is a political argument. And if there are more examples of issues that Republicans could potentially find with president Trump, that could mean that Democrats could convince the 17 necessary to cross party lines and vote to convict president Trump.
At this point it doesn't appear that there are enough of them to make that happen but we're still waiting to see how the Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell will rule on this case.
He said he wants to hear all of the arguments before making a decision. If McConnell were to break from former president Trump, there are a number of other Republicans that could follow suit -- Ryan Nobles, CNN, on Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: Now President Biden isn't wasting any time before trying to repair the damage of the last four years, at home and abroad. He's been calling world leaders, assuring them that things will be different now that Donald Trump is gone. CNN's John Harwood with the details.
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JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: President Joe Biden is spending his first weekend in the White House doing some of the typical things that new presidents do, reaching out to key allies. In this case, it's all the more important, given that some of those alliances were strained under the Trump administration.
He spoke by phone with British prime minister Boris Johnson. They talked about the importance of NATO as well as climate change. Johnson has cheered the president's return to the Paris climate agreement.
He talked to the president of Mexico, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, about immigration policy. That had been a source of friction with the Trump administration as well.
Talked to Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau about the Keystone XL pipeline. That is a point of contention with Joe Biden because Biden has revoked the permit for that pipeline. Canada favors it.
And with all three leaders, they talked about the importance of the COVID-19 pandemic.
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HARWOOD: And the broader agenda for Joe Biden, which he's trying to get early momentum, is that COVID-19 pandemic and the related economic recovery. He met with advisers at the White House today. Vice President Kamala Harris was there.
They're trying to gear up momentum for that COVID relief package, $1.9 trillion, to try to get through Congress. His economic adviser, Brian Deese, is going to be talking over the weekend with 16 senators of both parties, see if they can get a bipartisan package.
If not, Democrats will try to do it through a special budget procedure with Democratic votes only. But critically important for Joe Biden to get action quickly on COVID-19 and the economic recovery -- John Harwood, CNN, the White House.
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HOLMES: CNN senior political analyst Ron Brownstein is here to weigh in on all of this. He's also a senior editor at "The Atlantic."
Good to see you, Ron. We have this "New York Times" reporting, also "The Wall Street Journal" reporting, this plan to replace the acting attorney general, undo Georgia's result.
It's like the evidence of misdeeds just keeps stacking up. And, of course, talk that Mitch McConnell wants Trump gone.
What do you make of the impeachment dynamic among Republicans?
Could some of this information swing some votes?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, certainly. But it's going to be, as Ryan said, no matter how many -- how much information there is, it's going to be hard to get the 17 votes to convict him.
So the question will be, what is the statement that is made?
And I think even more important than whether they convict him is, what do we learn through the trial? I mean, it's pretty clear that both, in terms of the entire campaign since the election, to try to subvert the result, and also the more immediate and kind of visceral attack on the Capitol, that was the culmination of that, there is a lot still to come out.
There's a lot to learn about what Donald Trump did, about what members of his administration did and also what other Republicans in Congress may have done in terms of in some ways colluding with the attackers.
Joe Biden's instinct, he's made it pretty clear, is to look forward, not back. Understandable; he's dealing with the worst public health crisis in a century, the worst economic crisis in 90 years.
But I think most Democrats believe it will be a mistake not to fully examine the totality of what happened since the election. And there's a risk in trying to sweep it under the rug.
HOLMES: So much talk about politics, healing, unity. But there's also accountability. And that's going to be uppermost in this.
How does the desire among some Republicans to be done with Trump, along with the impact of what we've been talking about, play into, you know, Joe Biden's position?
He wants bipartisanship.
Could some of that dissatisfaction with Trump help Biden?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think it's a very fluid situation. It's clear in the polling, at the end of the Trump presidency, that there was a bigger share of Republicans, depending on the question, between one- fifth and one-quarter of the Republicans who are deeply unhappy with everything that has happened since the election and, of course, the attack on the Capitol itself.
You might say, that's a startlingly small percentage and, in one way, of course, it is; three-quarters of Republican voters say they believe Trump's disproven claims of fraud.
But the fact is, the party could not survive a defection of that magnitude. So I think that exerts a certain amount of pressure on Republican elected officials to try to create some separation with Donald Trump.
On the other hand, you'd have to say that the initial soundings from Republicans in Congress, whether it's on the stimulus or the immigration package, really the two big legislative ideas that Biden has put forward already, have been hardly encouraging.
In fact, they've gone out of their way, whether it's Mitt Romney and Susan Collins on the stimulus or people like Marco Rubio and Kevin McCarthy on the immigration plan, to kind of signal that they intend to fight him tooth and nail, pretty much the way they did Obama from the beginning.
HOLMES: You mentioned this interesting point -- and I read it in your article in "The Atlantic," too, about Republican voters, this sort of alarming percentage still believe that Biden lost. But you make the point that Republicans who do accept the results are pretty uneasy about their party's tactics.
Does this present an opportunity for Democrats?
Does it give any electoral leverage or advantage in terms of picking up disaffected GOP voters?
BROWNSTEIN: Absolutely. It is an enormous political opportunity for Biden. As I said in the column, big enough to drive an Amtrak train through.
Look, if you're talking to experts in extremism, they would say justifiably the fact that three-quarters of Republican voters say they believe these discredited claims from the president is a very ominous number because it gives a pool from -- a large pool of people who believe the big lie, as our colleague Jake Tapper calls it, and are thus able to be potentially radicalized.
If you look at it from the other end, if you look at it from the point of view of a political operative.
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BROWNSTEIN: And you say, somewhere between 20 percent and 25 percent, sometimes 30 percent of Republicans, depending on the question, say they do not want the party to continue down a Trumpian direction, they believe that both he and the members of Congress who objected to the results bear significant responsibility for the riot that followed.
That does provide a clear opportunity for Biden to deepen and consolidate the kinds of gains that allowed Democrats to win two Senate seats in Georgia, a state where they had not elected a senator since 2000.
What we saw in Georgia, what we saw in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, all of the key states, was Democratic gains inside the metros, particularly in those white collar inner suburbs, where a lot of those people had been voting Republican.
And those are the voters who are likely the most disenchanted with what's happening. So if Biden can convince them that he's giving them reasonable government that is not kind of veering off to the Left, there is a real opportunity for him there, no question.
HOLMES: Great analysis as always. Ron Brownstein, thank you.
BROWNSTEIN: Thanks, Michael.
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HOLMES: We here at CNN are in mourning today. The world has lost an icon. But we here have lost a member of our CNN family.
Larry King was the unmistakable face and voice of this network for 25 years. He was everything every journalist and storyteller should be: curious, direct, unafraid, sensitive and, most of all, selfless. He made the guests the important ones, never himself. Larry King was family and our hearts are broken today. I want you to watch this tribute.
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: He was the king of talk.
KING: Who came up with the bunny?
Do you miss it?
Was it embarrassing?
ROBIN WILLIAMS, COMEDIAN: Hello, nice to have you here.
KING: You know the Dalai Lama well.
What is it like to be shot?
How do you handle the tabloids?
The one thing you didn't answer is why.
Was it true that you once thought of taking your own life?
Why do you only have one name?
COOPER (voice-over): From Brando to Broncos --
KING: O.J. Simpson is in that car --
COOPER (voice-over): -- to Liza with a Z.
DAVID GEST, ENTERTAINMENT PROMOTER: That's right.
COOPER: Liza Minnelli, David Gest.
KING: Train wreck.
COOPER: Train wreck?
I didn't want to say it but it was.
COOPER (voice-over): Behind that mike, those specs, those iconic suspenders, he was the TV legend, who hosted CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE" for a quarter of a century.
COOPER: Do you consider the Frank Sinatra interview the best interview you've ever done?
FRANK SINATRA, SINGER AND ACTOR: From the minute you step out into that spotlight, you have got to know exactly what you're doing.
COOPER: What comes to mind when you think of Monica Lewinsky? MONICA LEWINSKY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE INTERN: Uh. Um.
COOPER: Are there ever times you can't come up with a question for somebody?
AL GORE, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They weren't there.
(CROSSTALK)
GORE: Let me finish now.
COOPER (voice-over): From political to personal.
COOPER: Heather Mills-McCartney takes off her leg.
KING: That's what you call good risk-taking and I take risks.
COOPER (voice-over): He had a career so rich, so deep, and he saw it all.
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HOLMES: Yes, 25 years, CNN was home to "LARRY KING LIVE," an addictive hour featuring showbiz, celebrities, political kingpins, true crime and even Middle East peace.
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YITZHAK RABIN, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Allow me first to compliment you to bring the three of us together. I believe that the future of the region depends on the kind of cooperation between King Hussein, Chairman Arafat and Israel to bring about a new Middle East.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: And Larry was on the air during this iconic moment in American history.
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KING: Well, I understand we're going to go to a live picture in Los Angeles, is that correct?
Ok, this is Interstate 5 and this is courtesy of KCAL, one of our L.A. affiliates.
Police believe that O.J. Simpson is in that car. OK. Police believe he is in that vehicle. Let's pick up what the KCAL broadcaster is saying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Now that infamous Ford Bronco chase with O.J. Simpson there. Now right after Simpson was acquitted, he called in to "LARRY KING LIVE."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KING: With us on the phone now is O.J. Simpson.
How are you?
O.J. SIMPSON, CONVICTED FELON: I'm doing fine. And, one, I want to thank you, I want -- you know, a lot because so many of my friends have told me that you've been fair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Now for 17 of those years at CNN, Wendy Walker was his senior executive producer. She reflected on that moment when O.J. Simpson called in, live on air.
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WENDY WALKER, FORMER CNN EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: I had told his people, if he wants to call in, I wanted them to make sure it was him. So I added a name, a number specifically for him to call in.
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WALKER: So we get this call. And I pick it up and it's him. So we put him on the air.
And he went -- and, of course, it was huge that he called in. Well, we went over, a little over our time. We were just a little over 10 o'clock. And I got a call from Atlanta.
And they said, "You're running over" -- leave the O.J. special?
"You have to get off the air."
And I said, "Well, have you -- by any chance, do you know what's on?
It's O.J. himself."
So maybe it's OK if we go on, stay on a couple more minutes. Yes, we laughed about it for a long time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: What a moment.
We'll show you more of Larry King's iconic interviews. Here he is with Rosa Parks, talking about that history-making day.
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KING: You did not get up?
ROSA PARKS, CIVIL RIGHTS ICON: No.
KING: Do you know why?
PARKS: Yes. KING: Why?
PARKS: Because I didn't think I should have to get up. I had already paid my fare and I'm sure he didn't pay any more than I did. And I didn't think that, once we took a seat, even under the segregation conditions, that we should be made to stand up in a crowded bus and not be --
KING: Did you have any idea you were starting something that day?
PARKS: No. No, I didn't know what would be the outcome of my taking a stand except I knew that when the driver said he would have me arrested, that was he was going to do and I would be on my way to jail.
KING: Were you frightened?
PARKS: I wasn't really frightened but I thought about things that I had to do at home and felt a little bit annoyed about that. And then I took this as an opportunity to let it be known that, as a passenger, I was not being treated fairly and, as a person and we as a people, were not treated fairly to have to undergo this type of treatment.
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HOLMES: The U.S. is nearing 25 million known cases of coronavirus and it's only been one year since the first infection was reported here. Around 20 million vaccines have been given out so far in the U.S. Far more people need to be reached. And many states are struggling to get the doses they need. Natasha Chen with the latest.
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NATASHA CHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the Biden administration went into its first weekend promising to remain laser focused on the pandemic, the virus continued its lethal now year-long rampage; 764 deaths on Friday alone in California, an all-time single day record for the state.
Meanwhile, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported on Saturday, more than 1.4 million vaccine doses were administered. So far, the Biden administration has been meeting its goal of one million shots per day about double what the U.S. was averaging in the month before the President took office.
But local health providers are hitting roadblocks in ramping up. CHEN (on camera): What resources would you need to be able to double what you're doing every day? ERIC NICKENS JR., SPOKESPERSON, DEKALB COUNTY HEALTH: A dependable vaccine supply. Right now, we're having to kind of dance a delicate dance between opening up additional appointments and the amount of vaccine that we have on hand.
CHEN (voice-over): Friday night, the Board of Health in DeKalb County, Georgia offered new appointments for the first time in nearly two weeks because they had been uncertain of how many new doses they'd get.
Publix grocery stores, which are offering the vaccine in three states, told CNN they're also only releasing new appointments when they've confirmed and verified shipments of vaccine.
GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D-NJ): I'm less worried, unless new news pops up, about running out, as I am. This is going to take at the moment a lot longer than we had expected in early December. I think the Biden team has found that the cupboard is a lot barer than anyone thought.
CHEN (voice-over): The Los Angeles County Department of Public Health says they've only received enough vaccine to inoculate one in every four people who are currently eligible.
About 5 percent of the U.S. population has gotten at least one dose. Around half of the doses distributed to states still haven't been administered, according to data from the C.D.C.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Feds need to, you know, take control so that they can help the states. The line was long. And I waited an hour and a half. But you know, that's OK. If you really want to get this, you'll wait.
CHEN (voice-over): And there's hope for improvement because Dr. Anthony Fauci says now science is guiding the way.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: That's a different tone, actually, that's strikingly different.
And that's the reason why, even though there's still going to be a lot of challenges ahead, if you stick with the scientific data and are transparent, open and honest with the American public, I think you're going to see things that are going to be different as we move forward.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All done.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All done.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All the work of getting here was worth it.
CHEN (voice-over): Natasha Chen, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE) HOLMES: Europe is dealing with multiple coronavirus variants, one of
which was first identified in the U.K. The British prime minister, Boris Johnson, has recently said that it could be deadlier than previous versions.
But his own National Institutes of Health director now says it's still too soon to tell. He did agree with the prime minister, though, that the variant seems more contagious.
Meanwhile, Japan reporting its COVID-19 death toll now exceeds 5,000 people. That's including 84, who lost their lives to the virus on Saturday.
The British government is racing to get as many people vaccinated against the coronavirus as possible. And it has a new strategy: delaying the second dose of the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine. Many U.K. doctors are against the idea but some scientists say it could help save more lives.
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HOLMES: As Scott McLean explains for us.
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SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A measure of success in the U.K. in the fight against the coronavirus. On Saturday, the government said more than 5.8 million people had received their first dose of vaccine. That's nearly 9 percent of the population.
But critics say rolling out the second doses should be happening sooner. Doctors from the British Medical Association want to reduce the gap between the first and second dose of the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine from up to 12 weeks to six weeks.
The chief medical officer says the longer wait allows more people to build up immunity. But Pfizer says the vaccine was only tested at a 21-day interval.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No other nation in the world has taken this stance. We want to be sure that, if this delay is occurring, we're not compromising and we're not going to result, we hope, in people becoming infected, who may have been protected by having an earlier second dose.
MCLEAN (voice-over): The vaccines even more vital, as a more contagious variant of the virus sweeps through the U.K. and beyond. The World Health Organization says it's been detected in more than 60 countries.
Early data suggests current vaccines can be effective against this variant. But the U.K.'s chief scientist says there is some evidence this strain may be more deadly than others. But it's too soon to tell.
PATRICK VALLANCE, U.K. CHIEF SCIENTIFIC ADVISER: There's a lot of uncertainty around these numbers and we need more work to get a precise handle on it. But it obviously is of concern that this has an increase in mortality as well as an increase in transmissibility as it appears of today.
MCLEAN (voice-over): In January, the U.K. went back into lockdown because of an alarming number of new cases, many driven by the variant.
And as even more strains of the virus are identified, in Brazil and in South Africa, and questions about how they will respond to vaccines, the U.K. suspended its travel corridors on Monday and says it's considering a full border closure to protect the population -- Scott McLean, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: Just ahead, more on Larry King's legacy. For decades, he interviewed heads of state, movie stars, world-class athletes. But one of his most memorable was that famous conversation with Marlon Brando.
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BRANDO: When the chapel bells ring out --
KING: Going to make him an offer he can't refuse.
BRANDO: Goodbye.
KING: Goodbye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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HOLMES: And welcome back, everyone. I'm Michael Holmes. You're watching CNN NEWSROOM. Appreciate your company.
Now President Joe Biden has moved quickly to address America's economic crisis, on Friday, signing executive orders aimed at putting food on tables and raising the minimum wage for federal workers.
The transportation industry has been particularly hard hit by the coronavirus pandemic. CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich shows us just how much some workers are struggling to survive.
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VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Joseph Palma lost hope in this pandemic. He says he often goes a day or two without food.
JOSEPH PALMA, UNEMPLOYED AIRLINE WORKER: It's not right, it's not great. I have to survive, I have to eat something.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): Palma, a contractor for American Airlines, was laid off in March. He survives off $275 a week in unemployment and food stamps. He lost his apartment and now lives in this one room. Trips to the grocery store take him to the expired food aisle.
PALMA: That's the only way I can eat because it's cheaper, it is almost half the price and sometimes more than that. I keep it for the longest I can keep it so I can wait for my next check for food stamps.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): He's one of more than 120,000 airline workers out of a job since February. When Americans stopped traveling, the transportation industry took a blow and has yet to recover. Between air, rail and ground transport, more than a quarter million jobs have been lost.
PALMA: This is all my medicines, (INAUDIBLE).
YURKEVICH (voice-over): Nearly $300 worth of prescriptions sit by his bedside. A heart condition left Palma with $12,000 in hospital bills. With student loans, he's $20,000 in debt. He says all of that makes it even harder to find food and work.
PALMA: I can't even go to the food banks because I have no car. Every time I go out looking for a job, I have to walk so many miles.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): For 21 years, Gerson Fernandes has driven a Yellow Cab.
YURKEVICH: What's it like driving a cab, being a cab driver in the pandemic?
GERSON FERNANDES, NYC TAXI DRIVER: It's like you have to keep driving and hope for the best.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): Yellow Cabs are an iconic part of New York City. At the height of the pandemic, ridership was down 90 percent for taxis, 85 percent for rideshare apps. Recovery has been slow.
FERNANDES: Everybody is hurting, but I'm talking for cabs. And for us, we are hurting a lot.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): Fernandes says he's lucky if he picks up four to five customers a day. He spends his eight-hour shift waiting for passengers at LaGuardia Airport.
YURKEVICH: What does that mean?
I mean, you have a beautiful home, what does that mean when you lost that much?
FERNANDES: When you say beautiful home, beautiful at that time. No longer now. Like we need to say, it was beautiful in those days. We could afford to buy a home and pay the mortgages or pay all the money. But now, it's so bad that, like, difficult to pay.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): His biggest expense?
The lease on his taxi medallion. He cannot afford the $3,000 a month.
FERNANDES: I try my best.
But, like, how much can you try?
How far can you go?
What can you do?
Very limited resources.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): It's the kindness of strangers that have helped fill his pockets and lift his spirits.
FERNANDES: So many people are tipping. In fact, people tell me, like, they give me $5 and even $10, I say, it's too much. They say because this time, everybody's hurting and you are working.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): Vanessa Yurkevich, CNN, Queens, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: CNN economics commentator and "The Washington Post" columnist Catherine Rampell joins me from New York.
Good to see you, Catherine. Let's start with the stimulus package; Republican pushback over the cost.
And you wrote in "The Washington Post," and I just want to quote it, "It's almost like clockwork; as soon as a Democrat enters the White House, Republicans pretend to care about deficits again."
And it is true that, after a presidency of defense spending, border walls, tax cuts which benefited the wealthy, now complaints about something that's going to people struggling to survive.
CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. In this seems to be an ironclad rule of politics.
[01:35:00]
RAMPELL: One that somehow was not broken by the past four years that, once a Democrat enters the White House, suddenly, Republicans do start to pretend to care about deficits again.
As you point out, when Trump was president, there seemed to not be a single eye batted amongst Republicans when they passed an unfunded $2 trillion tax cut that predominantly helped the wealthy and corporations.
They also spent an additional $2 trillion on top of what was already expected to be spent by the federal government, before the coronavirus pandemic hit, in the years that Trump was president, in his first three years.
So they've spilled a lot of red ink, didn't seem to mind so much at the time. Now, of course, Biden's in the White House, he's asking for these additional relief funds. The economy is in the throes of a historic crisis.
And all of a sudden, they have rediscovered their fiscal hawkishness, just as they did by the way, about a decade ago, when Obama took office, again, during a historic economic crisis, right after a lot of money had already been spent on tax cuts and things like that under his Republican predecessor.
HOLMES: Exactly.
And what would be the economic impact of not having a big move in this environment, a large package, one that meets the demands of the crisis?
RAMPELL: If you listen to what economists on both Left and Right have been saying, they have generally argued that the greater risk is doing too little, rather than doing too much, when it comes to intervening in the economy right now.
And what's meant by that is, if the federal government doesn't do all that it can to make sure that the economy is up and running as quickly as possible, to make sure that we limit the damage, that fewer small businesses close, for example, fewer people drop out of the workforce permanently, et cetera, then you will sustain a lot of permanent economic damage, a lot of permanent damage to the country's -- what economists call its productive capacity.
So that even when you do have widespread vaccine distribution, it will take a lot longer for the economy to get back up and running.
And consequently, what will happen is that that may actually end up costing the government more on the back end.
If you don't get the economy back onto its pre-pandemic growth trajectory, you also end up having to -- you know, getting fewer tax revenues, for example; people needing more government services further down the road.
So it may turn out -- or I think it probably will turn out -- that the fiscally responsible thing to do, in fact, if Republicans actually care about this, would be to go big now. It seems a little counter intuitive, to spend a lot to save a lot. But that is basically what economists are advocating.
HOLMES: Yes, yes. Sort of a big picture, a 20,000-foot view of it all. Real quick, when it comes to the deficit or the debt, there are a lot of people on the Left saying, here's an idea: tax billionaires, some of whom, let's face it, don't pay much tax, and corporations, which likewise don't pay their share in many cases.
Do you see that coming as a way of raising money?
If so, targeting who?
RAMPELL: Well, Biden himself has said he plans to roll back some of those Trump tax cuts, although not all of them. He's talked about rolling back the tax cuts for corporations and potentially for the wealthy.
There are a number of voices on the Left calling for some sort of wealth tax. That may raise some constitutional issues as well as some administrative ones. But you could at least imagine a higher capital gains tax rate or something like that.
So there is room, theoretically, to do a number of these kinds of things. Of course, how much political resistance these measures would take, would receive, is another question entirely.
And I think it's unlikely that you would see tax cuts coming anytime in the immediate future, at least while the economy is still very weak -- sorry, tax increases, rather.
HOLMES: Increases, yes, exactly. Catherine Rampell, always a pleasure, thank you so much.
RAMPELL: Thank you.
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HOLMES: You're watching CNN NEWSROOM. And we'll be right back after the break.
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[01:40:00]
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HOLMES: California is the epicenter of the coronavirus pandemic in the U.S., the state recording nearly 23,000 new cases on Saturday. And Southern California, particularly in Los Angeles, one of the most hardhit regions in the state. But some people are beginning to see a glimmer of hope on the horizon -- just a glimmer. Paul Vercammen tells us why.
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PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The L.A. County numbers in some ways are just mind-boggling. 269 new deaths. Also, 15,162 COVID deaths overall. But the number that just is so stunning is 5,000 deaths since December 30th.
Now a little glimmer of hope: we are seeing the hospitalizations go down. They've dipped below 7,000 for the first time in a long time.
How do you address a pandemic in Los Angeles County?
Well, they've been opening up these super vaccination sites. This one at the Forum in Inglewood. People had been trying to get these prized vaccination appointments, many of them struggling for days on end, having problems with websites and making phone calls. So you have never seen so many people so happy to be stuck by a needle.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Relieved, relieved. The hunt for trying to get it has stopped. Now I got the first one, I just wait for the message to come back and get the second one.
VERCAMMEN: How long did you hunt for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the beginning of time, from the beginning that this started.
Wherein going to be something to help me not groan so much about it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I feel great. And I don't want to be actually away from my kids and grandkids. I want to be able to hug them and kiss them and be with them.
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VERCAMMEN: And the Los Angeles county supervisor for this district, Holly Mitchell, saying, we have the infrastructure to get these shots in people's arms; we need more vaccine. Of course, that is being echoed throughout the nation right now -- back to you.
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HOLMES: Paul Vercammen, our thanks.
Now one California doctor was featured in a Vice news documentary, showing how excruciating it is to work on the front lines of this raging pandemic.
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DR. JENNIFER ELLICE, EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN: When people die, I usually get to tell the family to their face. And most of the time, if they're very sick, the family's there at the bedside.
I've held up notes. I've whispered in their ear. I've told them, "Your daughter loves you," "Your wife says you were the best husband, the best friend."
[01:45:00]
ELLICE: Just having to be a conduit for the family's love, when they can't be here, that's -- it's a lot.
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HOLMES: And Dr. Jennifer Ellice joins me now from Los Angeles, emergency room physician.
Doctor, it was compelling, listening to you speak. COVID-19 has changed so much of the way we all live. It's impacted the way we die as well. And it's clearly hard on the families, as you've said.
It must be hard, though, on you and the other medical professionals. You said, during the Vice report, it was like a mass casualty event every day.
ELLICE: Yes. Yes. Well, first of all, Michael, thank you for having me. As hard as it is for us, it's infinitely harder obviously for my patients and their families who are going through this.
And I think that one of the tragedies of this entire pandemic has been the fact that people do come to the hospital alone and they do have to suffer and, in some cases, die alone.
As a result, you know, we do everything we can to try to help people connect with their loved ones. But that is one of the most difficult things about being a health care worker right now.
HOLMES: As we know, you're around COVID, you're surrounded by it all day every day. I'm just trying to imagine, though, the mental stretch of that. It's not like a bad day; it's been a bad year, the incessant nature of it, how it impacts your own emotional well-being.
How do you and your colleagues deal with this?
ELLICE: You know, one thing that we've tried to do is talk to each other. After this piece came out, a few nurses and clerks and staff came up to me and told me they had actually wept when they watched it, even though it's an experience they know they've lived every day for the past nine months.
But they wept, they said, because they felt that they had not been able to communicate to people in their family what they've been going through. And I do think that that's really important for us, to be able to talk to each other to get through this, because you know, this is unlike anything that we've ever experienced in our careers and in our lifetimes.
HOLMES: I know you also care deeply about the impact on patients but also their families, not just from the stress of the illness itself but also the economic, social and family impacts.
Do you think enough attention's paid to that?
ELLICE: I think it's very difficult unless you have personally suffered losing a family member to this disease or unless you personally have had to go to work and knowingly been exposed, without the benefit of masks and social distancing.
I think it's very difficult for people to understand what kind of risks that even our grocery clerks are taking.
You know, one of the things that's been most heartbreaking for me to bear witness to is that, in many cases, my patients will have already lost a family member and they're coming in terrified, because now they're ill and they're suffering some of the same symptoms they saw their father or mother go through before they died. And as I said in the piece, many of my patients do not have a choice
but to go out and work and be exposed. So I do think that more attention should be paid to that. But I understand that we can't stop, we can't come to a halt completely.
So you know, until we can, I would just hope that people could take every precaution possible to protect each other.
HOLMES: I -- yes. I think that's obviously absolutely correct. One thing that I see in my own life is it's not getting through to a lot of people -- and you say other family members, people in the same family suffering, dying from this.
What is your message to people, who perhaps feel, vaccines are here, I can relax a little?
ELLICE: Well, first of all, we cannot relax. One of the things about vaccines and their effectiveness, it depends very much on what portion of the population has received the vaccine.
So they work best when we have enough people who've been vaccinated that we can create a herd immunity. And the way I put it to people is, even the most effective vaccines that we have right now, 95 percent efficacy, that means 5 percent of people who are vaccinated may not mount an immune response. That's 1 out of 20.
So there are 40 doctors in my group. That means two of us might not have an immune response. These are odds you don't want to play with, on the one hand.
On the second hand we don't know for sure you that cannot transmit, even if you are immune. So we still need to take precautions. We can't relax until enough people have been vaccinated.
HOLMES: Yes. Absolutely. It's far from over. Dr. Jennifer Ellice, I really appreciate it. And thank you for what you do. I mean, people like you are what keep the rest of us alive. So thank you.
ELLICE: Thanks for having me, Michael.
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HOLMES: And we continue to remember our former colleague and broadcasting legend, Larry King. He had signature interviews, like this one with Monica Lewinsky.
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KING: Did you say to yourself, this is the president?
MONICA LEWINSKY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE INTERN: Larry, I was a -- I was a 22-year-old foolish kid. And I -- I think I -- there was a charismatic, powerful man, who was standing there, showing interest in me and I was attracted to him. And I think I was swept up with the power of the presidency and later
found myself swept away by the government as a result of it.
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HOLMES: I've got some news just in. Mixed martial artist and superstar Conor McGregor knocked out in surprising fashion at UFC 257 in Abu Dhabi. Dustin Poirier was the heavy underdog in the match. He actually lost to McGregor in their first fight back in 2014. He was able to easily handle McGregor this time, knocking him out in the second round for the TKO.
Now we continue to remember legendary talk show host Larry King, who, of course, passed away at the age of 87 on Saturday.
[01:55:00]
HOLMES: He, of course, hosted "LARRY KING LIVE" on CNN for more than 25 years. One of the most memorable was in 1992, when he interviewed president George H.W. Bush and got the president of the United States to show him his driver's license.
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KING: When was the last time you drove?
GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I drive from -- with my own truck, for example, in Maine.
KING: So you do drive?
BUSH: Yes, got a car in Washington, but I don't drive it very much. I'll drive around the circle in the Oval Office, oval in front of the White House.
I can drive when I go hunting, something like that. I go hunting every year here in Texas and I drive a truck.
KING: Still a Texas driver's license?
BUSH: Still. You want to see it?
Let me see, I got to be sure I got --
KING: Just make sure it's not expired.
BUSH: No, no, it's not expired.
KING: I like that smile.
BUSH: Did it say president?
KING: Yep, President George H. W. Bush, the White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Department of Public Safety, Texas. Class C driver license.
BUSH: Hey, one minute.
KING: Six feet one inches tall, sex is male, eyes are brown. Birthday, 6-12-24 and this expires 6-12-93.
BUSH: I'm legal, see.
Where's your car?
Let's go for a drive.
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HOLMES: CNN and broadcasting legend Larry King, dead at the age of 87.
I'm Michael Holmes. Appreciate you spending part of your day with me. Don't go anywhere, though. My colleague, Robyn Curnow, is up next with CNN NEWSROOM.
