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Trump Wanted Loyalist as AG; Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-IL) is Interviewed about GOP Rifts; Supreme Court Dismisses Emolument Case; Three Veterans Charged in Insurrection. Aired 9:30-10a

Aired January 25, 2021 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Georgia and Jeffrey Clark was ready to rally with Trump behind the scenes. Clark reportedly drafted a letter to Georgia state legislatures that incorrectly said DOJ was investigating accusations of voter fraud in the state and that Georgia officials should invalidate Biden's win.

Top DOJ officials told Clark he was wrong and rejected Clark's request that DOJ hold a press conference announcing an investigation into voter fraud, according to "The Times." Clark then met with Trump the week of January 2nd. And after the meeting, Clark informed Rosen, Trump was going to fire the acting attorney general and Clark would take over, according to "The Times."

Clark denied calculating a plan to oust Rosen to "The Times" and said his conversations with the president were above board. All my official communications were consistent with law. There was a candid discussion of options and pros and cons with the president. It is unfortunate that those who were part of a privileged legal conversation would comment in public while also distorting any discussions.

But before Rosen could even react to what was unraveling, Clark's demand and his reported claims that the president would soon fire Rosen, tape of Trump's pressure campaign on Georgia's secretary of state got out.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: So, look, all I want to do in this this, I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state.

SCHNEIDER: Trump tore into Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger for more than an hour, even though Raffensperger and his general council insisted Georgia's numbers were accurate, especially after three recounts.

TRUMP: You should want to have an accurate election, and you're a Republican.

BRAD RAFFENSPERGER, GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: We believe we do have an accurate election.

TRUMP: No, I -- no, you don't. No. No, you don't. You don't have it. You don't have it. Not even close. You got -- you're off by hundreds of thousands of votes.

SCHNEIDER: After the call came out, Rosen's deputy, Richard Donahue, let several senior Justice Department officials in on what was happening, according to "The Times." Sources tell CNN they all agreed, including Trump's own Senate-confirmed appointees, that if Trump fired Rosen, they would all resign in protest.

On Sunday night, January 3rd, at 6:00 p.m., Jeffrey Rosen, Richard Donahue and a DOJ official doing the president's bidding, Jeffrey Clark, met at the White House with Trump, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone and other lawyers. "The Time's" reports Rosen and Clark laid out their arguments as if they were contestants on Trump's long- running reality show "The Apprentice."

Rosen arguing that there was no fraud to investigate. Clark urging the president to move forward with his plans to fight the results and fire Rosen. Pat Cipollone advised the president not to fire Rosen, according to "The Times" and Trump was warned that several top DOJ officials would resign if he fired the acting AG.

It took several hours, sources tell CNN, but eventually Trump was swayed that the resulting chaos at DOJ wasn't worth eliminating Rosen. But the damming details now emerging of a constitutional crisis averted are adding to Democrats' calls that the president needs to be convicted in the Senate.

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): The president was actually actively trying to take out his own attorney general and put in an unknown bureaucrat, conspiring with him. I think we're going to get more and more evidence over the next few weeks as if it's not enough that he sent an angry mob down The Mall to invade the Capitol.

SCHNEIDER: Incoming Senate Judiciary Chairman Dick Durbin says his committee is investigating Trump's reported plans to fire Rosen and rely on Clark to further his claims of fraud. And Majority Leader Chuck Schumer is calling on DOJ's inspector general to investigate what Schumer calls more attempted sedition.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): What happened was just despicable. For the president to try and get an attorney general who will just totally lie about the results of the election and cause chaos in America.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: And all of these emerging new details really set up new avenues for the Democrats to pursue in their impeachment trial set to begin in two weeks.

But when David Cicilline, whose a House impeachment manager, was asked if he believed Jeffrey Rosen or Jeffrey Clark should be called as witnesses, he would not say. Now, we do know that the DOJ inspector general has already opened an

investigation into whether Trump administration officials improperly pressured the former U.S. attorney in Georgia, BJ Pak, to investigate the election, Pak abruptly resigned earlier this month and he said at the time it was due to unforeseen circumstances.

I have reached out to Pak, but he is declining to comment.

But, Poppy and Jim, Democrats will really now have to decide how to tackle these new threads that are emerging. But no doubt it will amplify their calls to convict the president and, of course, their subsequent efforts perhaps to also bar him from holding future office.

[09:35:04]

So a lot developing perhaps in these next two weeks.

Guys.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: I mean multiple attempts here. Multiple by this president at the state and federal level to overturn the election. It's just remarkable.

Such a great telling of it in detail. Jessica Schneider, thanks very much.

SCHNEIDER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, the GOP, divide as some lawmakers are pushing to remove Representative Liz Cheney from leadership because she was among the ten Republican House member who voted to impeach former President Trump for inciting a riot on Capitol Hill. One of the Republicans who joined her in that vote calls it GOP cancel culture. He joins me next.

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SCIUTTO: There is a very public rift growing within the Republican Party as some lawmakers push to oust the caucuses' third ranking member, Congresswoman Liz Cheney. You remember she was one of ten House Republicans who voted to impeach former President Trump over his involvement in the January 6th insurrection.

[09:40:04]

My next guest is also one of those ten Republicans. Illinois Congressman Adam Kinzinger joins me now. He also serves on the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

Congressman, thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): Yes.

SCIUTTO: So we're coming up on three weeks since a violent assault on the Capitol, an insurrection really. And in that time, even many of your fellow Republicans who criticized the president's role early on, for instance, Kevin McCarthy said that the president bears responsibility back tracking on those comments. Marco Rubio, on the Senate side, who criticized the president's involvement, now calling a Senate trial stupid, in his words.

I wonder, as you're seeing that back tracking, despite his loss in the White House and losing the Senate, is this still -- the Republican Party still the party of Trump?

KINZINGER: You know, I mean I think in a few months we're going to know. It's kind of hard to see it in the -- in the fog of where we are now. You know, we're just coming out of this election. Everything that's going on that went on. I think in a few months we're going to see where this goes.

Look, every day that goes by there are less and less people that would consider themselves Trump Republicans, you know, as the emotion wears off. So I think in six months it's not going to be necessarily the party of Donald Trump. But this is the whole point is, I do think we are in a battle. And it may be a battle that really needs to happen for our party to say, where does it we stand for? Not when it comes to policy, but as much as anything, are we respirational or are we a party that feeds on fear and division?

SCIUTTO: A big test of that will come with the vote on Liz Cheney's position in the Republican leadership. And you got into a public spat yesterday via Twitter with Ohio Republican Congressman Warren Davidson on her leadership, and I'm going to quote one of your tweets here in particular. You say, happy to discuss and vote on everyone's role in this and from the top down. Liz didn't attack the Capitol and needs not defend herself. Those like you who sold a lie do.

On that point, just to be clear, are you accusing Davidson and others who bought in and still buy into that big lie, that the election was stolen, that they bear direct responsible for helping to incite that insurrection?

KINZINGER: Well, look, the only ones that bear direct responsibility are those that did it. But they bear responsibility for this narrative. That's the key. And, you know, we have to, as a party, come to real terms with what was our role? So for four years, and especially in the last year, we heard QAnon-type conspiracy theories.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KINZINGER: And I did a video a year ago on QAnon to expose it and people were like, oh, you've got to stay away from that, right? That's, uh. You know, but we play a role in that because when you sit around and you accept the idea that the election was stolen because, A, it's going to be easier to tell people that that's the case so I don't have to have that uncomfortable conversation and, B, maybe it will try to keep somehow that energy that we need to get 51 percent. You bear responsibility, especially if you spread that.

SCIUTTO: We've learned just now that Matt Gaetz, fellow congressman, who was also taking the side against Liz Cheney, he's going to actually go to Wyoming and campaign against her. You and he we're getting into it on Twitter as well. I wonder, does Liz Cheney have the votes to remain in leadership or is

her leadership in danger, in your view?

KINZINGER: Well, I think she does. I think she'll survive. And, you know, you look at -- maybe there were ten of us who voted to impeach. I think there were well over a majority of Republicans, had it been secret ballot, would have voted for it. Look, they all have their own reasons. I don't blame anybody for how they vote.

But here's the bottom line question. Liz Cheney showed a vote of conscience, right? There is nobody that took the vote to impeach that that was easy for. And are we really going to punish somebody for getting somewhat out of the -- whatever you think the Donald Trump party is today?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Listen. I've talked to fellow Republicans who told me directly they voted because -- they voted against impeachment because they would lose their primaries. I mean they say it right out.

I want to ask about Kevin McCarthy, because Kevin McCarthy, listen, he's flip flopped. He said the president bore responsibility for this. Took a lot of grief for it. Now he says everybody is responsible and is changing his tune.

Does McCarthy belong in GOP leadership?

KINZINGER: So, look, I like Kevin a lot. But I think if we're going to open up this can of who belongs in leadership and have the debate that some in the freedom club want to have, I think it's only fair to have the conversation from the top down, to have a discussion about, OK, what is the leadership of this party. And, look, you know, if you're a leader of the Republican Party right now, you need to be focused on one thing, not winning another election, that's not what we should be focused on right now.

What we should be focused on is restoring the integrity of this party because, I get it, the Democrats don't have integrity in certain areas too. Our job is to take care of ourselves, to lead the people the best we can. And we have sat here in this country just pointing sides at each other and saying, well, at least we're not as bad as them and the other side says the same thing and nothing gets done.

[09:45:02]

We need cool, calm, steady leadership to get through this crisis we're in.

SCIUTTO: If the party remains Trump's party, in effect throws its lot in with him again, make that calculation, they can't win these races in these House districts beyond without Trump, do you say in the party or do you say, enough, I'm out?

KINZINGER: I don't know. And I think that's where -- look, the party I fell in love with, sounds kind of corny, but when I was a kid, you know, and I loved the ideas of the Republican Party, I feel like we've lost a lot of that now.

And that's why I'm going to fight like hell to bring it back to the party that I believe in. And, you know that a kid born in the inner city should have the same opportunity as a kid born in Highland Park, Illinois. That's what conservatism is, not all this other anger and division. We stay an angry, divisive party, it will be hard to consider the Republican Party home. But my values won't have changed. It will have been the party's values.

SCIUTTO: Well, Congressman Adam Kinzinger, thanks so much for taking the time this morning. We appreciate it.

KINZINGER: You bet. Take care.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Wow, that certainly says a lot from him, that last answer.

We do have breaking news.

The Supreme Court will not hear a case concerning whether former President Trump violated provisions of the Constitution that bar a president from receiving a benefit or an emolument from a foreign or domestic government.

Let's get straight to our colleague Jessica Schneider, whose back with us.

In reading through this, Jess, at first glance it appears they're doing this because he's no longer in office.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's exactly right. They consider this case at this point moot.

But really, Poppy, this is yet another example of the Supreme Court transmitting this desire to stay out of these political disputes. They did not act on this case when Trump was still president. And now, just a few days after the president, former President Trump has vacated his office, the Supreme Court saying we do not want to weigh into this.

Remember, this was a big issue, particularly at the beginning of President Trump's presidency. Because he had the Trump International Hotel and other businesses throughout the country and even the world, the question was, did President Trump violate the emoluments clause by money coming into these businesses that he had and the hotels that he owned because a lot of the money coming in was coming from former governments. And the emoluments clause says you cannot accept this money from foreign governments as head of the United States, as president of the United States.

What's interesting here is that lower courts actually let these cases move forward. And one of the lower courts allowed 38 subpoenas for a lot of information as to the money that was coming in to the Trump International Hotel, for example.

But, Poppy, what this decision does from the Supreme Court, it not only says we are not going to hear this case because it no longer matters because Trump is no longer president, but it also wipes away those 38 subpoenas that the lower court had approved. So this information that was potentially going to come out about how much money these Trump businesses were taking in from foreign governments, that will no longer be allowed as well because the lower court opinions are completely wiped away, too.

Poppy.

HARLOW: Wow. Wow. It's really significant.

Jess, thank you for explaining it all to us.

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:52:35]

HARLOW: Well, three military veterans that are also members of the extremist militant group the Oath Keepers have been federally charged with conspiracy in connection to that deadly insurrection at the Capitol.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Sara Sidner took a closer look at this far right group and who these individuals are.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): They came to Washington trained in warfare, wearing combat gear, forming a line marching up the Capitol steps and then used their training against the U.S. Capitol.

These three Americans are some of the first to face the most severe charged on the attack on the Capitol, including conspiracy, obstruction of an official proceeding and violent entry or disorderly conduct. All three are U.S. veterans. Sixty-five-year-old Thomas Edward Caldwell served in the Navy. Fifty-year-old Donovan Ray Crow (ph) was a former Marine. This is Crow (ph) inside of the Capitol building on January 6th.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over ran the Capitol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're in the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Capitol.

SIDNER: The person who popped up behind him is Jessica Marie Watkins. She served in the Army as Jeremy David Watkins. On January 6th, the former Army veteran riled up her troops in person and on the social media site Parler. We stormed the Capitol today.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: A remarkable look inside those groups.

Let's speak now to CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr. And, Barbara, we know that the -- for instance, with the National

Guard troops that were guarding Washington during the inauguration, that the military did a screening of them for extreme views. You have these three -- extreme views. You have these three now charged.

I'm curious, how broad a problem does the Pentagon consider this within the ranks and what are they doing about it?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, to start with, I think it's important to make the distinction, there are veterans, obviously, now facing federal charges. The military has no jurisdiction over them.

But there is a real effort here to try and decide at the Pentagon how deep the problem is in the active duty force and to find a way to deal with it before these people get out that are veterans and then might engage in this activity. So there is already a review going on of current policy. Current policy is that you are not permitted to engage actively in extremist or supremacist behavior.

But how do you catch people in the military if they harbor these views just to themselves and then engage in some activity at last minute.

[09:55:05]

So there's a real effort to see what the screening procedures are when they come into the military, find a way to catch if there are illegal behaviors and try and tighten up on the screening. Do they have a problem?

You know, a lot of people will tell you that absolutely, yes, they do, and they do have people in the military that get booted out as soon as these behaviors are found and verified. Is there a vast network? No indication of that at this point. But after what happened on Capitol Hill, this is a situation where Congress and the Pentagon are in agreement, they have to do more. What that is, we don't yet know.

SCIUTTO: Yes, the parallels to scoping out potential recruits to international terrorism. They're real.

Barbara Starr, thanks very much.

Well, ahead, the article of impeachment against President Trump will be delivered to the Senate today. But will a trial hold up President Biden's agenda, including coronavirus relief? We're going to be live at the Capitol, next.

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