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Interview with Former Sen. Jeff Flake (R-AZ); U.K. Variant Sparks European Rise in COVID-19 Cases; Interview with Capitol Police Wife and Rioter Daughter Danielle Marshall. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired January 25, 2021 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): But my values won't have changed, it will have been the party's values.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: I wonder if you shared that, that if it remains Trump's party, right? That it's no longer the Republican Party that you championed.

FMR. SEN. JEFF FLAKE (R-AZ): Well, there's certainly no future with Trumpism, it's a demographic cul-de-sac. I think most people, most elected officials -- nearly all of them -- recognize that. But they deal with the reality right now, that if they cross the president, they'll get a primary. I think that that is waning pretty quickly, I think the president will fade away a lot faster than he wants to, but that's been the reality.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Senator, we're glad you're here on this. I just want to read to people part of the actual language in the censure of you over the weekend, that you, quote, "abandoned true Republican values by professing support for progressive and globalist politicians, and that you supported leftist Joe Biden for president."

What does that say about the future of your party?

FLAKE: Well, not very tolerant, frankly. You know, the party has a grand tradition of Republicans supporting Democrats on occasion. If you remember in 1992, David Duke was the Republican nominee in Louisiana for governor. George H.W. Bush and a number of Senate Republicans endorsed the Democrat, knowing that if the Republican was elected, it would be bad for the party.

Barry Goldwater, in the 1990s, endorsed a Democrat for Congress who later won, because he knew that it would do damage to the party if we continued that way.

And that's the way it is right now. There is no future with Trumpism, it just -- there's no coherent governing philosophy. It's more of an attitude than a philosophy.

And in just -- look, since President Trump was elected, we lost the House, we've lost the Senate, we lost the White House. And in the midterms, we lost more than 400 legislative seats nationwide. I don't know how much more winning we can stand as a Republican Party, so we've got to go a different direction.

SCIUTTO: Even though in the face of that, Senator Flake, there has been a noticeable shift, just in the last couple of weeks, that some of the Republicans who initially criticized the president -- Kevin McCarthy, for instance, saying that the president bore responsibility for the violent insurrection at the Capitol; now he says, well, everyone does.

You have a senator like Marco Rubio, who criticized the president's comments, now saying that a Senate trial would be -- I think "stupid" is the word he used there. And it's not like Representative Kinzinger has, you know, lots of folks in public supporting him, and I wonder if that shift is worrisome to you, that the Trump wing of the party is winning out here, or may be?

FLAKE: I don't think it will in the end, but it is concerning, short- term. Obviously my former colleagues are wondering where the base of the party is going to land, and there's concern that they might stick with the president, and a good number of them still believe that the election was rigged.

Now, I can tell you, there's not one of my former colleagues who truly believes that there was widescale voter fraud on a level that would overturn the election. Yet many took that position because that's the position the president took, and thereby, you know, his base. And so there's still concern.

And, yes, that is a big concern moving forward for the party, but I think, you know, when a president loses the trappings of office and the levers of power -- and with Trumpism, that requires a kind of a swagger that comes with winning -- that didn't happen. And so I think the president is going to fade a lot faster than some believe, and that will be good for the party.

HARLOW: So the -- it's notable that the editorial board of "The Wall Street Journal," this morning, wrote this, quote, "Sensible parties that lose elections try to reunite in opposition even while they debate policy differences and examine why they lost. They don't excommunicate people who could help rebuild a majority."

This was directly in response to the censure of you guys over the weekend. Reading that, I just wonder what your message to, for example, Mitch McConnell would be right now.

FLAKE: Well, we are always better when we play addition rather than subtraction. I don't know how in the world you win elections, moving ahead, if you're trying to push people out for, as it said in my censure resolution, for "rejecting populism." I thought that that's what political parties do. So yes, I think that, you know, the leadership in the Senate certainly

knows where we need to go, and I hope that as we get closer to the midterm elections, it's clear that you've got to distance yourself from the former administration, not try to ingratiate yourself to the president. He's going to fade pretty fast.

[10:35:04]

SCIUTTO: Just quickly before we go, if you were still in the Senate, would you be open to voting to convict the president based on what you know of his behavior and this article of impeachment right now?

FLAKE: You bet I would. If -- if inciting insurrection isn't impeachable, I don't know what is. And what led up to that, where he used virtually every lever he had, including calling the Georgia secretary of state to try to have him find 11,000 votes, or then try to fire -- conspiring to fire the attorney general to put in a lackey who would overturn the election. If that's not impeachable, I don't know what is.

SCIUTTO: Well, Senator Flake, thanks so much for speaking honestly and straightforward. Always good to have you on.

FLAKE: Good to be here, thank you.

SCIUTTO: And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:40:30]

SCIUTTO: Despite its ongoing lockdown, the U.K. has now reported more than 30,000 new coronavirus infections.

HARLOW: Our Salma Abdelaziz joins us from London.

It is so bad there despite all these measures they've taken. Is it because of that U.K. variant?

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN REPORTER: It is absolutely because of this new variant, Poppy and Jim. I cannot overemphasize just how ferocious of an enemy this variant is. It is up to 70 percent more transmissible, according to officials here. It can spread that much quicker among the population, and that's exactly what it's been doing.

It's created a tsunami of coronavirus patients, skyrocketing infection rates, unprecedented death tolls. The hospital system in this country? It's teetering on the edge of collapse because of this new variant.

And that's not all. The prime minister has said on Friday that this new variant not only spreads faster, but it might also be more deadly. Now, the chief scientific adviser threw cold water on that statement, he says it's too early to tell. But I know this is not just concerning for the British public, this variant has now been spotted around the world including in the United States, and there's not many solutions here -- Poppy and Jim. HARLOW: Wow, OK, thank you for the important reporting, Salma

Abdelaziz, we appreciate it very much.

Let's go to our Cyril Vanier, he joins us in France.

SCIUTTO: Cyril, the country's top medical adviser said yesterday that a third national lockdown in France may be necessary. How soon could that happen, how extensive?

CYRIL VANIER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, he's the French equivalent of Dr. Fauci here, if you will, and he says if nothing's done right now, then by mid-March things could be totally out of control.

Look, what they're really concerned about is this new U.K. variant. And you just heard Salma in London explain to you how rapidly things get out of control, that is what France wants to avoid, that is why they think that taking action sooner rather than later would be wise.

And that's why there's just widespread belief here that as the government continues to look at the numbers today and tomorrow, there is a very, very solid chance that President Macron is going to reimpose a national lockdown by Wednesday, which could come into effect at the end of the week.

And if you want an example of how fast things get out of control with this new variant, look no further then Germany, Jim and Poppy. An entire Berlin hospital has been put under quarantine, they have been accepting no patients since Thursday because of this new variant. They're testing all staff, all personnel. They're providing shuttles to staff so that they can only commute from work to hospital back to home. And they're hoping that it is not out in the city, but they do say it's unclear.

SCIUTTO: Goodness, alarming to see what's happening in Europe. Cyril Vanier, thanks very much.

All right, to China now. Wuhan, where of course this all started, entered a strict state-controlled 76-day lockdown just over one year ago, to stop the spread of the virus.

HARLOW: That's right. Our correspondent David Culver joins us.

Good morning to you, David, you are just back from Wuhan. We all remember so well your reporting there. What did you see this time?

DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Poppy and Jim, and I listened to Cyril, I listened to Salma, and it's strange to think, go back 12 months, it's exactly what we were dealing with here: the uncertainty, the overcrowding of hospitals, and yet you have a very different China today.

And certainly that's portrayed by state media, they like to push that things are under control, that lockdown, as harsh as it was, as crippling as it was for the economy and really lasting on some of the mental health impacts that are still continuing for the people there, it seemed to have been effective. And you saw that over the summer. In fact, one of the images that came out was people partying over the summer in a pool party, and then you had New Year's Eve celebrations where people were shoulder-to- shoulder.

Having just gone back now this past week, as we're marking that one year since the lockdown went into place, I can tell you anecdotally, people seem to be rather comfortable with life there. They're still wearing masks because of recent cluster outbreaks in the north of China.

But what you don't see until you start to talk to people -- and we started interviewing several people who lost loved ones -- is there are deep wounds that are just now coming to the surface. And Jim and Poppy, I think that's the reality, is that for a lot of the people who we spoke with who lost loved ones, there's anger, there's blame. They believe the local government covered up a lot, and they want to see compensation and justice.

HARLOW: David, thank you very much for that reporting.

[10:45:00]

Up next, we're going to speak with someone whose wife guarded the Capitol, a Capitol Police officer, during the insurrection, while her mother was protesting just a block away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Welcome back. So there is momentum growing in Washington for an independent 9/11-style commission to investigate how the Capitol was breached on January 6th. This as we learn more about the risk and the danger that U.S. Capitol Police were in, trying to protect democracy that day.

In a new piece for the "Washington Post," Danielle Marshall, the wife of a U.S. Capitol Police officer, shares her account of that day, when her wife was protecting the Capitol as her own mother was protesting outside.

[10:50:07]

Here's part of what she writes. Quote, "The violence on January 6th was a self-inflicted wound. Politicians put lives and democracy at risk by exploiting and encouraging people like my mom. And that day, it was my wife who put her body on the line of save the lives of those very politicians."

I'm so glad Danielle Marshall agreed to join us, she's with us this morning. And I just want to acknowledge that I know it must have been scary to write that down, to put your story out there. But hopefully, you know, cathartic as well. And our deepest thanks to your wife, who is -- is such a true hero. So thank you for coming on.

DANIELLE MARSHALL, WIFE OF U.S. CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER: Yes, thanks for having me, she's definitely my hero too. HARLOW: You wrote in the piece about texting with her in the middle

of all of this. You said, "When I got her test at 2:19 p.m., I felt relieved, but not for long. Who knew what might happen at 2:20 or 2:21?" What was that day like for you, knowing your mom is a block away, protesting, and your wife is trying to protect the Capitol?

MARSHALL: Yes. I mean, it was scary, right? More than scary. We deal with protests all the time in D.C., right? It's part of our everyday life, and people come up and express their First Amendment rights, as they absolutely should be able to do.

I think what we didn't realize that day is maybe how many people there were going to the rally at the White House, and that kind of caught me by surprise. I live a few blocks south of the National Mall, and I can see people walking up with their flags and it just seemed a little more manic, a little more frenzied than a typical protest, right?

We have -- you know, whether it's the Women's March or the March for Science, like, we do this all the time in D.C. So then when I -- you know, I got to thinking, I was like, oh, I wonder if my mom's in town. And she's one of the more extreme ones, she started a YouTube channel a couple years ago and at one point she had 60,000 subscribers following her conspiracy theories.

So I don't really follow it, as you can imagine, it's a little jarring for me. But I checked in and there she was, she's right down the street. And that's when I realized how big the protest was. And then Trump said that they were going to head to the Capitol, and that made me real nervous.

HARLOW: You talked about the conspiracy theories that your mom not only believes, but posts to a lot of followers on her YouTube channel. And we should note, we did reach out to your mother, we wanted to give her ample time to comment, we did not hear back.

But I wonder if she's listening right now or if she sees this, what your message might be to her or anyone else who still believes the big lie, right? That the election wasn't fairly won by Joe Biden, as it was. I mean, I wonder what you have to say to all of them.

MARSHALL: Yes. I mean, when it comes to my mom, I certainly have a lot to say, as you can imagine, right? But I think the biggest thing is, right? Like, I have heard from so many people, reaching out to me since I posted in the "Washington Post," since I was published, that they're dealing with the same thing, right?

Their parent, their sibling, their college roommate, their friend, their coworker is struggling with misinformation, disinformation that's being, you know, propagated by these politicians. And they're leveraging people's vulnerabilities for their political gain, and it's disgusting.

So I think the biggest thing we need to do, right? Is know, number one, we're not alone. And that's why I wrote the article, because I think that a lot of people are struggling with this, and it's not just as simple as, oh, just talk to your family about conspiracy theories, right? Like, I think we're past that.

HARLOW: Right.

MARSHALL: But the bigger thing is, I really want our leaders to be held accountable, to just tell us the truth. That's all I'm asking.

HARLOW: Well, can I ask you, there's the political leaders that I think you're referencing, but I also wonder about the leaders in big tech and social media. Because you wrote this in the piece, you said the gulf between you and your mom, quote, "has only widened as she got into the far-right internet."

And I wonder if you think she would have gone down this road had the big lie not been propagated over and over and over again across social media? And maybe your message to the heads of these companies as they are trying to figure out what to do, going forward?

MARSHALL: Yes. I mean, as we all know, right? Social media can be an echo chamber for whatever you already believe and ascribe to. You know, I work in digital, I work in tech, so I get it, it's not cut and dried, it's a little more complicated than that.

But I think that it's going to be a multifaceted approach that gets us through this. You know, some people need to talk to their family members when they're just on the brink of kind of dipping their toe into conspiracy theories and misinformation, and make sure to correct that.

I think that our information sources need to be held accountable to fact-check and take things down. You know, I can't tell you how many times I reported my mother's social media to whatever platform she was on, and they just kept it up, you know?

[10:55:09]

HARLOW: Wow.

MARSHALL: It took time and time and time again to -- of reporting to get this stuff taken down. And in that time, she's changing hearts and minds to these mass delusions.

But the biggest thing, right? Is that our elected officials, these are the people who make the decisions for our country, they have to tell us the truth.

HARLOW: Danielle, they do, you're right. I'm sorry we're out of time, I'm so glad you came on. Thank you very much.

MARSHALL: Thanks, Poppy.

HARLOW: Of course. And thanks to all of you for joining us today, we'll see you tomorrow morning. I'm Poppy Harlow.

SCIUTTO: And I'm Jim Sciutto. NEWSROOM with Kate Bolduan starts right after a short break.

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