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Republican Infighting; Trump's Impeachment Defense Strategy?. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired February 02, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: They say that he is -- quote -- "singularly responsible" for inciting that insurrection at the Capitol last month.

They're arguing that the Senate should disqualify him from holding future office ever and -- quote -- "make certain that he can never harm our country again."

As for the former president, his legal team just filed its response. It is, in a word, defiant. They say the Senate cannot convict him because it's unconstitutional and that his call to -- quote -- "fight like hell" had nothing to do with the Capitol insurrection.

Also, this. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell just did something most of his colleagues will not, condemn first-term Congresswoman and conspiracy theorist Marjorie Taylor Greene. He called her a cancer for the Republican Party. Strong words, yes, but will the GOP leadership actually take action against her? That's a question we're asking today.

A critical meeting on that question could be just hours away.

There is also movement this afternoon on pandemic relief. Despite a two-hour meeting in the Oval Office last night on the president's plan, and then a much smaller Senate Republicans' counteroffer, congressional Democrats are now moving to fast-track their $1.9 trillion package. We have so much more on what that means for struggling Americans in just a moment.

But, first, let's dig a little deeper on this legal response filed by the former president's attorneys.

Our CNN chief domestic correspondent, Jim Acosta, is live with me this afternoon.

And so, Jim, this all goes down one week from today. What will we be hearing from team Trump?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Well, what you're going to be hearing, Brooke, is part of what you just said a few moments ago, that, constitutionally, they're going to argue that the president can't be convicted at the Senate trial after leaving office as president.

But they're also going to say that the president's comments on January 6 at that rally on the Ellipse just before the riot that took place at the Capitol falls under the category of protected speech.

Let's take these one chunk at a time. But, first, let's show you what the Trump impeachment lawyers are saying about this issue of whether or not the president can be convicted after leaving office. It says: "The Constitution only specifies impeachment for president and Trump is no longer in office."

But the Democratic impeachment managers are saying there's no free pass here to commit crimes near the end of your term, and there's no January exception for impeachment.

Getting back to what the president said on January 6, what they're trying to do on the Trump impeachment team, Brooke, is to create some distance between the president and what took place at the Capitol on January 6. They are saying when he said things like you have to fight like hell, that he was talking about his election concerns, which is interesting, because it is sort of a sly way for these Trump lawyers to inject the big lie that the president has been peddling for months now that the election was stolen from him.

But you do get the sense reading through this document that was filed by the Trump impeachment team that they don't want to put the election results on trial.

One other thing we should point out, Brooke, when you go through this, the fact-checkers, our friends like Daniel Dale, could have a field day with some of what's in this filing from the Trump impeachment team. At one point, the Trump impeachment lawyers say that the president at no time tried to subvert the certification of the election results on January 6.

That is just not true. I mean, that's just flat-out false. The president, of course, as you and I both know, Brooke, tried to coerce Georgia election officials. For example, remember that infamous audio of that phone call with the president and the Georgia secretary--

BALDWIN: Brad Raffensperger.

ACOSTA: Exactly.

And going beyond that, what the president did with his own Vice President Mike Pence, trying to strong-arm him time and again to go up to Capitol Hill and do something other than what was constitutionally required of him, which was essentially to operate as an emcee, counting the election results on January 6.

So, the Trump impeachment team is trying to, I think, tiptoe through the tulips here and try to rest their argument on this constitutional idea that he can't be tried and convicted for what happened on January 6 after he's left office, but, as you saw, those House Democrats in their impeachment filing, they're just not buying it. They're saying listen, if that were the case, the president could commit crimes just before leaving office and get away with it. And they're planning on showing video of what took place on January 6, walking the public through what many of these lawmakers were going through when they felt like their lives were threatened to sort of put the president on trial from the standpoint that members of Congress' lives were put at stake, were put in jeopardy by virtue of what the president said on January 6.

The Trump impeachment team is trying to say, no, the president was just talking about his concerns about the election results. But, of course, that again goes back to this big lie that the president has peddled over and over again, that somehow the election was stolen from him, when, of course, we all know it wasn't -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes, that's the big preview ahead of next Tuesday, the beginning of this second trial.

[15:05:00]

Jim, thank you.

I want to focus continue to focus on this filing that I have here.

So, with me now to discuss all of this is Elie Honig, CNN legal analyst, former assistant U.S. attorney Southern District of New York, and CNN political analyst Sabrina Siddiqui. She is a White House reporter for "The Wall Street Journal."

So, welcome to both of you.

And, Elie, first of all, arguably, one of the most anticipated legal documents in modern history, we should point out -- you see this? You see this word I circled right here at the tiptop? The tiptop, how you spell United States Senate, spelling 101, folks, it's with D and not an S.

But typos aside, this starts with a familiar argument that this trial is not constitutional. Counselor, what do you make of that argument?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

Well, Brooke, we knew they'd be making that argument. And there are some scholars who will take that point of view. I think the far better argument and I think the logical argument is, of course, you can impeach a former official.

I mean, it can't be a free-for-all in January, as the House impeachment managers say in the brief.

But a couple things that jump out to me about this defense brief, beyond the typos and that kind of thing. First of all, they try to cast the real victim of everything that happened on January 6, and before and after, not as the Capitol Police officers, not as the members of Congress who were under siege, not as the people who were hurt and killed in the Capitol, but as Donald Trump. He's always the victim. This brief plays right along with that. They say, oh, poor Donald Trump. Congress acted too fast. We're moving too fast to impeach him. Yet, in the next breath, they say, also, it's too late because he's not president anymore.

I mean, you got to pick one way or the other.

The other thing -- and Jim talked about this -- they do not disavow the big lie. They keep the door open in this brief to argue the big lie. They say, well, there's evidence both ways. Who can say?

The quote is they say, Donald Trump therefore denies that his statements about the stolen election were false. So, they're keeping the door open to that, I think, very dangerous argument.

BALDWIN: Trump's lawyers say this -- quote -- "Insufficient evidence exists upon which a reasonable jurist could conclude that the 45th president's statements were accurate or not, and he therefore denies they were false."

Sabrina, why do they think they can continue to relitigate something that has been, to everyone's points, proven to be false?

SABRINA SIDDIQUI, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, this is a way of appeasing former President Trump.

We know that members of his legal team departed just days ago because they did not want to relitigate these baseless claims of election fraud. They wanted to focus instead on really what is at the heart of this impeachment trial, whether or not the case can be made that former President Trump directly incited the mob that stormed the Capitol.

But we know that Trump is fixated still on this idea that the election was stolen from him. It's telling, though, that they focus on that only briefly, and also telling that a lot of the former president's legal team, their argument really centers on process and not substance.

So, this idea that the trial itself is unconstitutional because he is no longer in office, and that his words at that rally moments before the mob stormed the Capitol were protected under free speech, they're not focusing on the substance of what he said and the way in which he used very charged language to instigate the people who were at that rally by telling them not to give up the fight, by telling them to go to the Capitol and make themselves heard, because that is really what is at the essence of the Democratic -- the Democrats' case here.

That is the president's own words on tape that show the events that precipitated the attack on the Capitol.

BALDWIN: And not only that tape, but another tape, right? You make this perfect point about substance. The brief here also mentioned that phone call between Donald Trump and the Georgia secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger. And so I'll read for you what the lawyers said, and then we will all

remember the call. So, the lawyers say this: "It is denied President Trump made any effort to subvert the certification of the results of the 2020 presidential election. It is denied that the word 'find" was inappropriate in context, as President Trump was expressing his opinion that, if the evidence was carefully examined, one would find that you have many that aren't even signed, and you have many that are forgeries."

But here is the tape. Roll it.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state, and flipping the state is a great testament to our country, because it's just -- it's a testament that they can admit to a mistake, or whatever you want to call it, if it was a mistake.

I don't know. A lot of people think it wasn't a mistake.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Elie, it's on the tape. How is that not what he's saying?

HONIG: Brooke, this is why some people hate lawyers.

I mean, come on. We all have ears. We're all human beings. We all have common sense. It's exactly what he says.

[15:10:02]

They say -- in the brief you just read, they say, well, when he said find, he didn't really mean find. He meant something innocuous.

I mean, look, common sense has to prevail here. And these lawyers need to watch it a little bit, because the brief they put in today is sloppy in form. It's sloppy in substance. Your credibility as an attorney is everything. And when you start fudging the truth, or start making claims that any average elementary school student can see are false, you're going to lose your credibility in front of that Senate and in front of the U.S. public.

BALDWIN: We are also part of this whole conversation. And I hear you so, so carefully, Elie.

But, Sabrina, we're getting this rare glimpse now into what it was like to be one of the lawmakers targeted during the Capitol riot. Last night, Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez recorded this emotional, almost 90-minute-long Instagram Live video, revealing for the first time publicly that she had been sexually assaulted in the past and how that trauma came back to haunt her during the terrifying moments of the insurrection when she was forced to hide.

Here's a clip. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): I'm here, and the bathroom door starts going like this. Like, the bathroom door is behind me -- or, rather, in front of me.

And I'm like this. And the door hinge is right here. And I just here: "Where is she? Where is she?"

I thought I was going to die.

These folks who tell us to move on, that it's not a big deal, that we should forget what's happened, or even telling us to apologize, these are the same tactics of abusers.

And I'm a survivor of sexual assault. And I haven't told many people that in my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Do you think stories such as the congresswoman's, Sabrina, will change the hearts and minds of senators?

SIDDIQUI: Well, I think it certainly has a profound impact in really detailing what it was like to be inside the Capitol on January 6, and to specifically be one of the lawmakers who was being targeted and sought out by the mob that was prepared to inflict violence.

And what was really significant about the way in which Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez told her story is that she really contextualized the response to these events and this push by some, especially Republicans, to simply move on, that it's the same kind of tactics abusers use against sexual assault victims, which has an effect of minimizing their trauma and minimizing the severity of the actions that took place on that day.

I mean, look, the FBI has put out a bulletin, as we know, saying that political extremism poses the greatest threat when it comes to the prospect of domestic violence and domestic terrorism in 2021.

And so I think the broader point that Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez was making is that, if there is no accountability, if there are no consequences, then this is the behavior that is not only being normalized, but there is also a very real prospect that it will happen again.

BALDWIN: Yes, yes.

Sabrina Siddiqui, thank you. Elie Honig, thank you very much.

Senator Mitch McConnell finally breaks his silence on Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene. He says that her -- quote -- "loony lies" are a cancer for the GOP. But will Republicans actually take action?

Also, the White House is announcing today that, in fewer than 10 days, it will begin shipping vaccines to 40,000 retail pharmacies nationwide.

And Democrats say that they will not wait for Republican support to advance their $1.9 trillion COVID relief plan. Could Americans see direct checks in just a matter of weeks?

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:18:30]

BALDWIN: Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell is now making clear what he thinks of controversial Georgia Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Without mentioning her by name, Leader McConnell issued this stinging rebuke. This is what he said -- quote -- "Loony lies and conspiracy theories are cancer for the Republican Party and our country.

Somebody who suggested that perhaps no airplane hit the Pentagon on 9/11, that horrifying school shootings were pre-staged, and that the Clintons crashed JFK Jr.'s airplane is not living in reality. This has nothing to do with the challenges facing American families or the robust debates on substance that can strengthen our party."

Senator McConnell also had some words of support for Congresswoman Liz Cheney, who is facing some serious Republican backlash for voting to impeach Donald Trump.

Congresswoman Greene did not hesitate to respond to that. She tweeted -- quote -- "The real cancer for the Republican Party is weak Republicans who only know how to lose gracefully. This is why we are losing our country."

With me now, Bill Kristol, lifelong Republican and director of Defending Democracy Together, and CNN senior political analyst David Gergen, who served as presidential adviser to Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and Clinton.

So, gentlemen, thank you for being on.

And, Bill Kristol, first to you, sir. What did you think of what Leader McConnell said both about Greene and Cheney?

BILL KRISTOL, DIRECTOR, DEFENDING DEMOCRACY TOGETHER: You know, it's funny.

I mean, if -- to be honest, if Mitch McConnell were so concerned about the damage that lies and conspiracy theories could do to our country, you would think he might have done something about President Trump while he was in office for four years, not supported him for reelection, and so forth, and probably is now going to vote to acquit him in the Senate trial.

[15:20:08] So, there's a little bit of misdirection here, a little bit of picking on the easier target, and avoiding coming to grips with the real problem, which is Donald Trump. You know, if Donald Trump hadn't been president for four years, we wouldn't have Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Having said that, he is marginalizing her. And he's putting Kevin McCarthy in a very difficult position, which I think will McConnell rather enjoys, where McCarthy is now -- McConnell's sort of staked out a position that the Republican donor class and establishment Well, like, and what does Kevin McCarthy do now?

BALDWIN: Well, back on your first point, why do you think he's even -- to your point about how he has felt about Trump in the past, why even bother to say this then about Marjorie Taylor Greene? What's he trying to do at this late stage of the game?

KRISTOL: Well, because he's looking forward, and he wants to get some credit for calling out the crazies -- and he is calling out a crazy, so I will give him some credit -- and sort of pretend the Trump stuff never happened, and he didn't accommodate Trump, and everyone else didn't accommodate the big lie on the election.

What Marjorie Taylor Greene has said is despicable, really, and deserves to be criticized, and she deserves to be kicked off of committees and so forth. But what's the big lie that has done damage to America over the last three or four months? It's the election lie.

Mitch McConnell was not very forthright in confronting that. So you get some credit for taking on the easier crazies to take on perhaps, but you kind of avoid your real responsibility in acquiescing in a much more dangerous set of lies.

BALDWIN: I hear you. It's almost easier. It's the lower-hanging fruit. I'm going to come back to you.

David Gergen, to you. On Kevin McCarthy, we're hearing he could be talking to Marjorie Taylor Greene as early as tonight. Given the statement from Mitch McConnell, what do you think Kevin McCarthy does?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think he's going to be very careful and cautious and essentially ask her to tone it down. And he will not go after the way he should.

I think he -- I think he really need to be -- he needs to be tough with her. He needs to make it very clear that she's not going to be welcome within the party if she continues down these tracks.

And Bill Kristol is absolutely right, as always, calling it as a -- it's farcical to have this woman representing the face of the Republican Party. And it's dangerous. It's the radical -- it's further radicalization of the party. Radicalization started some years ago with Newt Gingrich and company. And it's only gotten worse and I think more dangerous for the Republican Party.

We need a center-right party in this country. What we don't need is a radical right party in this country. That's very dangerous. BALDWIN: So, when you say Kevin McCarthy will be tough on her, define

tough, David.

GERGEN: No, I don't think he will be tough on her.

BALDWIN: Oh, you don't think he will be tough at all? So, you think it'll just be words?

(CROSSTALK)

GERGEN: No, I think it's going to be -- they're going to represent it as they're taking her to the woodshed and he was very tough with her and so forth and so on.

I think, in the privacy of the room, he really has a lot more regard for us and -- for her than we do. And he's going to be very, I think, cautious. He will to ask her to tone it down. He will be able to go on and say, I talked to her, but the truth is, the messages to her is going to be, don't fight every fight. Stay around, stick around, build up some credibility, and you will be you will be important to us down the road when we need a firebrand.

BALDWIN: Do we think -- Bill, to you.

Bigger picture, I'm thinking of Trump now. With Mitch McConnell, he went out of his way to release a statement to CNN expressing how he feels like Liz Cheney was courageous. And do you think Mitch McConnell's words are any indication of which way he will go when it comes to the impeachment of Donald J. Trump again?

KRISTOL: I think, about a month ago, McConnell was -- or after January 6, McConnell was really open to conviction, when it became clear that House was going to impeach. He tried -- he said that a couple of times, in effect.

Didn't get a heck of a lot of support from more than a handful of Republican senators. He may have just decided -- and then they all -- 45 of them voted for the Rand Paul, I think, somewhat ridiculous constitutional language. Anyway, that was defeated. So now they're supposed to judge it on the merits, but they will retreat to the fake constitutional argument that you can't impeach him or convict him after his term in office.

He was impeached during his term in office, incidentally, just as a technical matter. It's only the conviction, which makes even the argument weaker.

Anyway, it feels to me like McConnell -- again, you praise Liz Cheney, you criticize Marjorie Taylor Greene. If you're an establishment Republican, that's great. What's not to like? And it deflects from the fact that next week, the Senate, the body Mitch McConnell is part of, has to make a judgment about Donald Trump's big lies, which had a pretty massive effect on this country and a pretty damaging effect on this country.

And so it feels to me like it's what you do if you're not going to do the courageous thing in the Senate. You attack -- you attack one House member and praise another.

BALDWIN: So, in a sense, it feels like maybe verbal jujitsu, sans any significant consequences.

We will watch to see what happens.

David and Bill, thank you both so much.

I want to get to some breaking news out of Moscow now, protests erupting after Putin critic Alexei Navalny has been sentenced to jail.

[15:25:03]

We will take you there live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Breaking news this afternoon, protests have been popping up all across Russia, after the poisoned opposition leader Alexei Navalny was sentenced to two-and-a-half years in prison.

His sentence followed a raucous day of testimony, with emotions running high both inside and outside that courtroom.