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House Democrats Request Trump Testimony; Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA) States School Shootings, 9/11 Happened; Interview with Parkland School Mother Linda Beigel Schulman. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 04, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

OLIVER DARCY, CNN SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: And they're having to pay a lot of money in extra security for both physical security of the employees, and also cyber-security for -- to protect their technology. And so they're looking for damages right now.

Fox is saying they'll defend this lawsuit; they're calling it meritless. And Sidney Powell is calling it a political maneuver. We're still waiting to hear back from Rudy Giuliani.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST, NEWSROOM: OK. And Elie, I mean, look, as dramatically and convincingly as some of these personalities and Trump supporters sold this bunk, it's hard to believe that they believed it, right? But that would be key to a lawsuit like this.

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It would be key, Brianna. So first of all, this lawsuit is a legitimate threat, it's a real threat, there are some real teeth to this.

There's really going to be two legal questions here. One, were the statements false, were they bunk? I don't think there's any question about that: Yes, they were false, they were bunk. The second question is, did Fox or the other defendants know that they were false when they made the statements, or were they reckless about knowing or learning whether they were false? And look, every authority from 60- some courts to the Department of Justice to the FBI has confirmed that they were false.

And what's going to be really interesting here, Brianna, is this case will, like most cases, go to discovery, where the parties exchange information, get documents, take depositions. The plaintiffs here are going to get deep inside of Fox News.

If this gets to discovery before it settles -- or if it goes to discovery, then they're going to get their eyes on the e-mails, the texts, the internal notes, memos, what was happening at Fox News. And if they knew this was false or if they definitely should have known this was false, that's going to be real trouble for them legally.

KEILAR: But what, Elie, would a settlement look like to avoid that? I mean, in a way, it seems like between a rock and a hard spot. If they're asking for almost $3 billion, I mean, a settlement could be extremely damaging financially to a news -- I don't want to say news. To a media outlet like Fox.

HONIG: Yes, so this is where the lawyers start negotiating, if there's even a willingness to settle in the first place, by the way. Keep in mind, settling usually carries a common-sense imprimatur of they're admitting some wrongdoing, right? I mean the question is why would you settle for a large amount of money if you didn't do anything wrong.

There is some precedent here, Brianna. A few years ago, there was a lawsuit against ABC News for defamation and libel in a similar-type scenario about a report that they had done on a food processing company. That case, that's public knowledge, ended up settling for $177 million.

Now, each case stands on its own merits, but that may give us some sense of if there's going to be a settlement -- and again, if you're Fox News, I think you have to think hard here about what it says if you do settle versus the risk -- the huge risk of going to trial. So they're in a tough spot.

KEILAR: Indeed they are. All right, Oliver, Elie, thank you guys so much for talking to me about this.

HONIG: Thanks, Brianna.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN Breaking News.

KEILAR: Top of the hour right now, and it is a busy hour indeed. I do want to reset, we are following three breaking stories at this moment. The first is that Democrats are requesting that former President Donald Trump testify, under oath, before or during the Senate impeachment trial, in his Senate impeachment trial.

This trial is expected to begin on Tuesday, and we have yet to hear from the former president on this. The article of impeachment, accusing Trump of inciting the deadly January 6th insurrection on the U.S. Capitol. Let's start here first with CNN chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju, who is following this on the Hill.

So, Manu, just walk us through this because this is a letter that is requesting Trump's testimony, and it's from House impeachment managers. What are we learning here?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the lead manager, Jamie Raskin, writing to Donald Trump, requesting his testimony because they say that Donald Trump, in his legal team's brief this week, disputed the key facts in the case.

So Jamie Raskin says, OK, if you're disputing the facts, come and testify under oath before the Senate, subject to cross-examination too, and give you story about why the facts are disputed here.

He says -- Jamie Raskin does, writes in this letter that other former presidents, who were presidents at the time, agreed to testify including Gerald Ford when he was president, President Bill Clinton gave testimony under oath. They say Donald Trump, as a former president, has no reason not to testify in this case.

And they're inviting him to come as soon as Monday, before the Senate, and they're saying they want it to occur between Monday and Thursday of next week, and they want an answer by the end of this week.

Now, one thing that they don't say in this letter is what they will do if he does not agree to testify. One thing that they do say is that "If you decline this invitation, we reserve any and all rights, including the right to establish at trial that your refusal to testify supports a strong adverse inference regarding your actions on January 6, 2021." Of course, the day of the deadly riot here. He is charged, the former president is, for inciting an insurrection on that day.

So they're saying they could use it against him if he doesn't agree to testify, but they could also subpoena him. The Senate, by a simple majority vote, could subpoena Donald Trump to come and testify. And Jamie Raskin, our colleague Jeremy Herb just tried to ask Jamie Raskin if he would subpoena Donald Trump, seek a subpoena for him if Trump declines an invitation to testify. He declined to answer the question.

I've talked to some Senate Democrats just now who are open to the idea of trying -- of issuing a subpoena to Donald Trump. Richard Blumenthal would vote on a subpoena if it did come to it, said, "If the House managers want it," he said, "it would carry a lot of weight with me."

So I expect that to be the prevailing attitude of most Senate Democrats, and 50 Senate Democrats in the chamber, with the tie- breaking vote, they could issue a subpoena if the Democrats wanted to go that way. It's -- that's still uncertain. We don't know how hard they're going to push for it.

And we also don't know what Donald Trump is going to do at this exact moment. We're waiting for his response, but there have been questions, Brianna, if there would be any witnesses at this trial. Democrats want the main witness, Donald Trump, to testify right away.

KEILAR: It brings so many questions with it. Manu Raju, thank you so much, live for us from Capitol Hill.

Let's talk now with my colleague Jake Tapper, who is of course the anchor of "THE LEAD" and CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION." Jake, help us understand what this could mean in the second impeachment trial of Donald Trump.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think what's going on here is Trump's lawyers made a number of claims in their legal brief, in their letter, that are undermined by what we all saw with our eyes and heard with our ears.

And let me just walk through two of them, because the goal of the House impeachment managers here is to say, oh, you're refuting these facts that we think are just, you know, facts. So let us have President Trump present his argument, because this seems like very basic stuff.

So just to go through the letter from the lawyers, here's one of them. This is from Trump's lawyers, OK? "It is denied that President Trump incited the crowd to engage in destructive behavior. It is denied that the phrase, 'if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore'" -- which is of course what President Trump said at that January 6th rally -- "had anything to do with the action at the Capitol, as it was clearly about the need to fight for election security in general, as evidenced by the recording of the speech."

All right, let's play that clip if we can, where Trump is saying to this mob, this crowd -- many of whom later attacked the Capitol -- "If you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So the idea there is, basically, the House impeachment managers are saying, really? You're really claiming that he wasn't talking about going to the Capitol? Because that just seems to stretch all reasonable credibility.

And then, of course -- and of course we have had -- we've heard from insurrectionist after insurrectionist, saying that they were there because Trump told them to go. Remember, he said he was going to walk along with them to the Capitol.

KEILAR: That's right --

TAPPER: The other -- one other, and there might be -- I don't even know how many lies or claims that are -- seem to be contradicted by the facts are put out by the Trump lawyers. Remember, by the way, how many lawyers Trump could not get to sign onto this legal brief because they refused to do what he wanted to do.

Here's another one, "It is denied" -- from the Trump lawyers -- "It is denied that President Trump intended to interfere with the counting of Electoral votes."

Again, we all saw President Trump -- he was then the president -- saying that Mike Pence, the vice president at the time, needed to do the right thing and overturn the election. He said things in that speech on January 6th about Mike Pence needing to do the right thing. There's been reporting about Trump saying that Pence can either be -- you'll pardon my language -- "a patriot or a pussy."

So the idea that President Trump was not trying to get the mob, the crowd to go and stop the counting of electoral votes or at least get it reversed, or at least halt it, rather, just seems to be undermined by the facts.

So that's one argument. You know, I think it would be their dream to get Trump to testify, but we all know that any lawyer worth his salt would not let Trump testify in this impeachment trial.

He -- and no matter how many times we've seen this happen, Trump will say something outrageous, his defenders come out and say, no, no, no, he didn't mean that we should blow up the moon. And then Trump comes out and says, no, no, we should blow up the moon. That happened over and over and over again, so no lawyer's going to let him testify.

That will be -- since this is a civil case -- impeachment, the impeachment trial is a civil case -- that will be considered by lawyers to be an adverse inference. In other words, because Trump is not there, the jury -- which is the Senate -- is obligated to infer that he's not there because he doesn't have anything that can really defend him. So that's what's going on with that.

[14:10:16]

KEILAR: His impulse, I suspect, is to be heard, but certainly his lawyers see the folly in that.

I also, Jake -- while you're here -- I want to get your take on what was -- and, look, we've had a lot of breaking news here, but -- not too long ago, there was a bit of an extraordinary moment on the House floor, and that was from Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene.

The House, of course, is right now taking steps to strip Greene -- who has blatantly spread lies and baseless conspiracy theories -- of her committee assignments. We heard from Greene, and I just want to play some of what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Any source of information that is a mix of truth and a mix of lies is dangerous no matter what it is saying, what party it is helping, anything or any country it's about. It's dangerous. And these are the things that happen on the left and the right. And it is a true problem in our country.

So I walked away from those things, and I decided I'm going to do what I've done all my life: I'm going to work hard and try to solve the problems that I'm upset about. So I started getting involved in politics.

You see, school shootings are absolutely real. And every child that is lost, those families mourn it. I understand how terrible it is because when I was 16 years old, in 11th grade, my school was a gun-free school zone, and one of my schoolmates brought guns to school and took our entire school hostage. And that happened right down the hall from my classroom.

I know the fear that David Hogg had that day; I know the fear that these kids have. And this is why -- and I say this sincerely, with all my heart, because I love our kids, every single one of your children, all of our children.

I truly believe that children at school should never be left unprotected. I believe they should be just as protected as we were, with 30,000 National Guardsmen. Our children are our future and they're our most precious resource.

I also want to tell you, 9/11 absolutely happened. I remember that day, crying all day long, watching it on the news. And it's a tragedy for anyone to say it didn't happen. And so that I definitely want to tell you, I do not believe that it's fake.

I also want to tell you that we've got to do better. You see, big media companies can take teeny, tiny pieces of words that I've said, that you have said -- any of us -- and can portray us into someone that we're not. And that is wrong.

Cancel culture is a real thing, it is very real. And when big tech companies like Twitter, you can scroll through and see where someone may have retweeted porn? This is a problem, this is a terrible, terrible thing.

But yet when I say that I absolutely believe, with all my heart, that God's creation is he created the male and female and that should not be denied? When I am censored for saying those type of things, that is wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: I mean, we just need to be clear here, Jake, she has peddled these lies and conspiracies both on-camera and in writing. And there she seemed to be blaming others for taking what she said out of context when it has been meticulously fact-checked, and she was not taken out of context.

What did you think of this moment?

TAPPER: I thought it was the most disingenuous speech I've heard -- well, I wish I could say ever, but just since a few weeks ago when the Republican leader, Kevin McCarthy, acted outraged that anybody would be pushing the election lie that he himself had been pushing for two months. But that was one sentence of complete disingenuousness; this is an entire speech of it.

Look, the fact that she blamed this on news media for slicing and dicing and misrepresenting what she said, when what I have seen in the news media -- and what we have reported here on CNN and others have reported elsewhere -- are complete sections of her livestreams, multiple minutes -- three, four minutes -- screenshots of her social media posts, where she hypothesizes in a deranged manner that the 2018 wildfires in California that cost dozens of lives were caused by the Jewish billionaire Rothschild family, using lasers so as to enrich other wealthy Jews including Senator Dianne Feinstein's husband, Mr. Blum.

[14:15:01]

I mean, these are just things that she said and things that she wrote. Nobody sliced and diced, nobody snipped. It's all there for people to see. And the fact that she would respond to these charges, based in reality that she is a liar and conspiracy theorist, with more lies and a new conspiracy theory -- that it's the media that has been misportraying her? Says it all.

And look, she can believe whatever she wants on -- in terms of her religion or her views of gender or sex, and I don't see anybody even talking about that, I don't even know where that came from. But she has been spreading deranged -- deranged -- it's even -- it's too nice to call them conspiracy theories.

Propaganda saying that Muslim Americans can't be members of Congress, which is a lie. She went to Capitol Hill and tried to get Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib of Michigan and Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, tried to get them to swear their oaths on a Christian bible, because they swore their oaths on a Quran.

Which, you know, reveals not only her bigotry, but her complete ignorance about like what you need to swear in on. Because, as you know, Brianna, you can swear in on an iPhone, there's nothing in the law that says you have to swear in on the Christian bible or any religious book.

KEILAR: And also --

TAPPER: She -- these anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, QAnon, Pizzagate, all this nonsense? This has -- and the big lie about the election, this has cost lives. That's why people are discussing this and debating this. This costs lives, it enraged a mob that attacked Capitol Hill. And this is more of a lie, this is part of the whitewashing of all of that.

KEILAR: And I think that speaks to the question of, you know, why is she covered? She's covered because this is much bigger than just a congresswoman from Georgia. She is a sign of something, she is a symptom of something. And I wonder also, Jake, what you think about the timing here, because this -- I mean, she seems to describe it as contrition? That is obviously very debatable.

She is saying this here, just on the precipice of facing consequences.

TAPPER: She says, there, that she feels bad for David Hogg, the Parkland student who became an activist after the horrific school shooting. There is video of her harassing David Hogg, harassing him. I mean, has she apologized to David Hogg for that? No, she just goes on the floor of the Congress and says I love David Hogg, I love all our students.

She says -- and here's something else that makes me curious about her, because this was written in a very clever way. She says that school shootings are real. OK, was Sandy Hook real? Was Parkland real? Because those are the school shootings that she suggested were false flag operations or carried out by leftists in order to create gun bans, whatever insanity.

She says, I know 9/11 happened. Well, her specific brand of 9/11 trutherism is that she said that she thought 9/11 happened, but she didn't think that the plane hit the Pentagon. KEILAR: The Pentagon.

TAPPER: Right, that's what she said. So she's a 9/11 truther, but a distinct kind of 9/11 truther, the plane never hit the Pentagon, which is obvious insanity.

KEILAR: A half-truther.

TAPPER: So I don't buy any of it because I have eyes and ears. And as you note, this is about something bigger than Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is just, you know, a frivolous person who -- and not a serious person -- who says horrible things.

It's about how much the Republican Party is willing to embrace this and mainstream it. Because remember, she's not the only House Republican who has been spreading deranged lies that were part of the noise and incitement that caused January 6th, that terrorist attack. She's just the most notorious of them.

But something like 126 House Republicans, including House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy and House Republican Whip Steve Scalise, signed onto that deranged lawsuit that sought to take away tens of millions of votes, and disenfranchise Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Georgia because they went for Biden based on lies.

And then came the attack, and then even after the attack, something like 140 House Republicans voted to disenfranchise 20 million people from Pennsylvania and Arizona based on these same election lies.

[14:20:08]

So the question is -- and it is -- it's not that there aren't people who believe this nonsense in the Senate, there are, or at least push it, like Hawley and Cruz, they're probably (ph) no better. But this has become a real problem for the House Republican Caucus because so many of them have signed onto these lies.

Not Liz Cheney, not Adam Kinzinger -- you know, there are plenty of -- not plenty, about a third of the caucus hasn't. Chip Roy, Mike Gallagher, there are a number of them who are very conservative but have not aligned themselves with this nonsense. But about two thirds of the House Republican Caucus has.

So there's all this debate about Marjorie Taylor Greene, but the biggest problem is not Marjorie Taylor Greene and her lies. It's the fact that Kevin McCarthy, Steve Scalise and two-thirds of the House Republicans signed onto the election lies that cost Capitol Hill Police Officer Sicknick his life -- and others their lives as well.

KEILAR: Jake, thank you so much for joining us. Obviously so much to talk about today, and we certainly appreciate your voice. And we will see you again here shortly, at 4:00 p.m. on "THE LEAD."

TAPPER: Thanks, Brianna.

KEILAR: Greene's comments have been a slap in the face to families of the 17 people who lost their lives at Stoneman Douglas High School, three years ago this month.

And that includes the family of Scott Beigel, who was a beloved geography teacher, he was a cross-country coach. And when he died, when he was shot, he was trying to save his students. He was opening his door to them, after they ran up a staircase just in front of the shooter, trying to escape his bullets.

And Scott Beigel's mother, Linda Beigel Schulman, is with us now. Linda, we spoke earlier this week, and you spoke to Marjorie Taylor Greene this weekend, confronting her about what she had said about the shooting that claimed the life of your son. I wonder what your reaction is today to her comments.

LINDA BEIGEL SCHULMAN, MOTHER OF TEACHER KILLED IN PARKLAND SCHOOL SHOOTING: Thank you for asking me back today, Brianna. No, Congresswoman Greene, she's playing with words and playing games. I'm going to really simplify it, OK? It's really quite simple.

Congresswoman Greene said that Parkland school shooting was a false flag, a staged event, OK? She told me, face to face on a Zoom call, that she did not believe the Parkland shooting was either a false flag or a staged event. Now she needs to tell the public just that. She needs to not skirt around the issue, and find words that don't have any meaning, OK?

And she needs to stop playing the games with words. She needs to say, come out in public and say, the Parkland shooting did happen, it is not a false flag, it was not a staged event.

You know, to me, again, not a politician. This is the real government, OK? This is the government of the United States, not preschool, where we are taught right from wrong, OK?

You know, you stay in the spotlight for doing good for the country. She should be doing her job, OK? She needs to stop with the spreading lies and then taking up precious time that could be spent by everyone in government, OK? Getting purposeful issues accomplished.

It's really ridiculous. Look at where we are. And all I'm talking about is the Parkland issue, OK? Look where we are today.

KEILAR: I wonder, Linda, one of the things she said that I was curious -- you know, I was curious about what you thought about it. She said, "I know the fear that David Hogg," who is the boy that she was seen harassing on camera on the Capitol before she was elected to Congress.

She said, "I know the fear that David Hogg had that day, I know the fear these kids have." Did you get that sense from her when you spoke to her this weekend?

BEIGEL SCHULMAN: You know, I spoke to her and we really had -- we had a very decent conversation. It was more like speaking mother to mother, OK? When I got off the phone with her, I really, really wanted to believe what she said to me. I wanted to believe -- you know, the whole conversation, I wanted to believe it, OK? When -- five minutes went past after I got off the phone, it was like

another person, when I was watching her double down on TV about her conspiracy theories and what had gone on. You know, again, mother to mother, you know, if you take away everything, I would have really wanted to think she was sincere.

[14:25:04]

But as I sit here today, speaking with you and listening to everything that's transpired since the conversation, she really took me for a ride.

KEILAR: You think she just told you what you wanted to hear, or do you think she told you what she believes, but that she's channeling this BS for politics?

BEIGEL SCHULMAN: I think your words have put it perfectly, OK? I do believe that she knows it was real and she believes it. I do believe that, OK? But I believe politics has totally taken over. She's -- you know, she's really in the spotlight. Look where we are, that's all -- every time you see a newscast, every time CNN comes on, there's definitely something about her and that's because she's put herself there.

But you know, take yourself out for that, you know, Congresswoman Greene, take yourself out for that, just that little snippet of time. Stand up in front of the public and tell everybody Parkland was real. How many times do we have to ask her to do that? We've asked her over and over, but she wants to go all around the issue. And every time she goes around the issue, we have another conversation about Congresswoman Greene.

KEILAR: Yes, she said, "It's a tragedy for anyone to say it didn't happen" -- she said that about 9/11. But what you are requesting specifically is for her to correct her very specific comments when it comes to the shooting at Parkland and no one can blame you of that, Linda.

So thank you so much for coming on to talk with us again.

BEIGEL SCHULMAN: No, thank you so much for understanding how important this is to us, and how hurtful it is, and really feeling for us. I mean, we can't thank you enough. I can't thank you enough.

KEILAR: I can't thank you enough for coming on. Linda Beigel Schulman, thank you and we will see you again.

We are following some breaking news, and it is tied to the election lies told by former President Trump and his allies. A voting technology company called Smartmatic has just filed a $2.7 billion -- with a B -- lawsuit against Fox, Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell, his lawyers. We'll have details of that, just ahead.

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