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White House and CDC Director Disagree on School Safety; Interview with Former Republican Knute Buehler; Interview with North Dakota Gov. Doug Burgum (R). Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 05, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: I don't know, I don't see it.

NEIL BRADLEY, EXECUTIVE V.P. AND CHIEF POLICY OFFICER, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: Well, let me give you an example. One of the bigger portions of the president's $1.9 trillion proposal is extending unemployment insurance through September 30th, the end of the fiscal year. That's a fine date to pick, it's when a lot of programs sunset, but it's simply a date that they picked.

Senate Republicans have proposed extending it through June. The real answer ought to be to extend unemployment based on the unemployment rate, and let the economy and the pace of the recovery and the pace of defeating COVID determine the final price tag.

That's a compromise between where the president is and where Senate Republicans are, that could be done and doesn't delay any benefits getting to anyone right now. In fact, it's simply going to ensure that the benefits are there when they need them without any more of these artificial cliffs like we're expecting in March.

So those are the middle grounds that we see between Senate Republicans and the president. Now there's just got to be a will to seek those out. That's true on school funding, it's also true on state and local aid. So everyone's getting tied around the knots, and what the number is? Let's get the policy right and whatever that number produces, that's where we should land.

KEILAR: And, look, I mean, Christine, certainly there could be an incorporation of Republican ideas, and there are a lot of people arguing for that. But what is unclear is if the votes -- if the Republican vote -- I think it might actually be more than unclear if the Republican votes would actually follow those compromises.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: You know, also, there's even moderate Democrats who might be concerned about sliding in a $15 an hour minimum wage in there. And even last night, you saw some maneuvering last night that seemed to suggest they could put the $15 an hour minimum wage to the side and not address that right now because it could be confrontational. That could be a little place of bipartisan agreement right now, during the middle of the crisis, even though progressives of course want a $15 an hour minimum wage. But you might see small maneuvering like that that could start to satisfy people and move this thing forward.

I have to imagine that they're hearing from their constituents, though, just how tough it is out there. I mean, businesses are closing, hundreds of them, a day. People are furious about their kids not being in school, about they can't get a vaccine, you know, all these people who are out of work. You have 5.3 million fewer women's jobs right now, and 2.5 million women who have left the workforce because they're caring for elderly relatives and kids at school.

I mean, this has affected every aspect of our life. It's not a garden- variety recession by any stretch of the imagination. Sometimes you hear politicians talking as if this is 2008? This is not 2008. We are down more jobs today, right now, than we were at the worst of 2008, 2009.

KEILAR: Yes. And I'm glad you bring up what women have been dealing with, because it has been a very specific thing, Christine Romans, thank you so much.

Kaitlan and Neil, thank you so much as well.

There's another big issue that was in this briefing, and that is schools. Because it is the mantra of President Biden's COVID Response Team that science, not politics, will drive its policy in the pandemic. But is that what is leading the way when it comes to reopening schools? Here's what the CDC director has said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROCHELLE WALENSKY, DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: I also want to be clear that there is increasing data to suggest that schools can safely reopen, and that that safe reopening does not suggest that teachers need to be vaccinated in order to reopen safely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now, listen to what the White House says.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president -- let me be crystal-clear -- wants schools to open, he wants them to stay open and that is -- and he wants to do that safely. And he wants health and medical experts to be the guides for how we should do exactly that.

So we're just not -- the -- Dr. Walensky spoke to this in her personal capacity. Obviously she's the head of the CDC, but we're going to wait for the final guidance to come out so we can use that as a guide for schools around the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: But here's the thing, Dr. Walensky wasn't speaking in her personal capacity, she is the CDC director and she was at the official CDC briefing when she said that, which is why this is all very confusing for Americans, why it's confusing for parents and teachers, and certainly kids if they're paying attention.

So let's talk about this now with CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash, who also co-anchors "STATE OF THE UNION," and she's here with us now. We also have CNN medical analyst Dr. Jonathan Reiner, who is a professor of medicine and surgery at George Washington University.

Dana, today, our colleague Sara Murray directly asked the CDC director if it's official policy that teachers do not need to be vaccinated before schools reopen, and Dr. Walensky did not answer the question. She said official guidelines will be released soon. So why can she say that teachers, there's this increasing evidence that teachers don't need to be vaccinated for a safe reopening Thursday, but then not today?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's confusing, and my guess is that behind the scenes at the CDC, they're working even faster than they were before to come out with those guidelines, to clarify it. Let's hope so.

[14:05:05]

And look, I mean, we know that from all of the studies, that -- that was what the CDC director was clearly referring to -- that it is safer than people expected for the kids to be in school. But we also know that teachers are, in many cases, very understandably hesitant to go back to school, especially in schools that are crowded, that don't have good ventilation and so on and so forth.

And so you know, squaring that circle is very difficult, especially, Bri, when you think about what you were just talking about with Christine Romans, about the fact that it's not just students, it's not just teachers, it's people leaving the workforce in order to be home with their kids so that they can be in school virtually. As she said, 2 million women. I mean, it's not just caregiving for their -- you know, for their relatives, it's for their children.

And so this is such a personal and such a palpable issue that is going on all over the country right now.

KEILAR: You know, Dr. Reiner, I wonder what you think about, you know, the science and if it's driving the response here when it comes to reopening schools. I also do want to put, as a note there, there are many -- I mean, we should be clear as we talk about teachers returning to schools -- there are many union rep teachers who are already back in classrooms, teaching, without vaccinations in areas where, you know, the numbers aren't low. So let's just be very clear about that, there are many teachers who have gone back.

But I wonder, Doctor, what you think about whether science is driving these policies or if it's all just kind of piecemeal? JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: The problem I have is that we

as a nation and the CDC in their guidelines have classified and thought of teachers as essential personnel. And the problem is we're not treating them as essential personnel.

So we've systematically vaccinated our health care workers because we felt (INAUDIBLE) appropriately -- and I'm one of them -- that they would be at risk for infection. And many places, many cities in the United States are systematically vaccinating first responders like firemen and police, and I think that's very appropriate.

And teachers, who spend all day long in relatively small spaces, sometimes very crowded spaces, sometimes very poorly ventilated spaces with a lot of kids, where it's sometimes very hard to social distance? I think teachers very appropriately feel that they are at risk.

And if we want to get teachers back into schools and we want to get our schools open, we should be systematically vaccinating all 3.7 K through 12 teachers -- 3.7 million K through 12 teachers in the United States, that's how we do it, 3.7 million teachers get vaccinated, a month later, all the schools are open. Schools can be open April, May and June and into July in this country if we do that, and we should be doing that now.

KEILAR: I mean, Dana, why aren't we as a nation doing that?

BASH: It's a great question. You know, what Dr. Reiner just said is so logical, it makes so much sense. As a parent and as a member of society that sees the direct line from schools opening to the economy rebounding to everything else opening, it makes perfect sense.

Right now, if we put this question to the administration, my guess is that they would say there's still a supply issue, but hopefully that supply issue will be fixes relatively shortly, and that they can prioritize it and should prioritize it. It makes perfect, perfect sense.

And I guess that's a long way of saying I don't know why it's not being done, and should have been done not just by this administration, but you know, the guidelines should have been set when this whole notion of pushing for a vaccine and doing it quickly started during the last administration.

KEILAR: Yes, lots of questions, we're going to keep following them. Dr. Reiner, Dana, thank you so much to both of you.

BASH: Thanks, Bri.

KEILAR: This race to vaccinate people against COVID-19 is becoming more urgent every day, especially with the spread of that new, highly contagious variant. But part of the problem is that many states haven't yet administered all of the vaccine doses that they have received, right?

TEXT: Coronavirus Vaccines Louisiana: Total doses distributed, 746,550; Total doses administered, 509,982 KEILAR: The state of Louisiana is an example here, it has received nearly 750,000 vaccine doses, but that lags the doses that they have actually put in arms.

Ed Silvey is the CEO of Baton Rouge Clinic in Louisiana. Ed, I know that you have been pushing for weeks to get more vaccine doses for your clinic. And we look at the numbers, and we would say, why can't you? So what is the explanation that you're hearing for this hold-up?

ED SILVEY, CEO BATON ROUGE CLINIC: Basically hearing the same thing that everybody else in the country's hearing, and that is there's a supply problem. We've done, probably over the last month, about 4,000 vaccines, which is extremely low for an organization our size.

[14:10:08]

Our governor said (ph), up until this coming Monday, we were only supposed to give to health care workers and people greater than the age of 70 and older. In our clinic, we have 27,000 patients greater than 70 years of age, plus other people that show up that are not our patients that want shots. So with only having 4,000 doses and 600 of those 4,000 were second doses, so we've got a long way to go and the demand is exceptionally high.

KEILAR: Yes, I mean, that's a drop in the bucket for the patients that you all are responsible for. OK, so 4,000 shots -- really, I mean, 3,400 patients, it sounds like, right? But how many shots could your clinic give per day if supply were not an issue?

SILVEY: If we did Monday through Friday, it'd be a thousand a day. And if -- probably on Saturday, maybe 1,500. So we would love to have a continuous, large supply and vaccinate as many patients as we can.

KEILAR: 6,500 a week? I mean, if my math is correct there, that's a pretty big capacity. Ed, I know you must be frustrated, we thank you for talking to us. You're responsible for the health of a lot of people, thanks.

SILVEY: Thank you so much for having me on.

KEILAR: Still ahead, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene speaks out after being stripped of her committee assignments, and she says the Republican Party now belongs to Trump.

Plus, I'll speak to a lifelong Republican leader in Oregon about why he just left the GOP.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:10]

KEILAR: The Republican Party is at a critical juncture. Last night, the House voted to strip Georgia Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene of her committee assignments, a punishment over her past support of QAnon and other ludicrous conspiracy theories she has supported. Eleven Republicans joined Democrats in removing Greene from her posts, proving the divide is very real within the party.

Greene is not backing down. And this morning, she made her feelings about the decision crystal-clear.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Free speech really matters. And yesterday, when the Democrats and 11 of my Republican colleagues decided to strip me of my committee assignments -- Education and Labor, and the Budget Committee -- you know what they did? They actually stripped my district of their voice.

I had the greatest opportunity yesterday, and I'm so grateful for it. I got to say what I had done wrong. And do you know how freeing that it? I'm not kidding, I seriously feel blessed by God because I got to do it on a world stage.

Record number of Republicans voted for President Trump. Do you want to know why? It's because they loved his policies. The party is his, it doesn't belong to anybody else. This impeachment trial that's going to happen next week is a circus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: It is Republicans like Congresswoman Greene who have many in their party questioning their loyalty to it. My next guest has been a part of the GOP for four decades. He ran as a Republican for both a congressional seat in 2020, and as a gubernatorial candidate in Oregon in 2018. Now he says he's no longer a member of the Republican Party.

With me now is Knute Buehler. And I want to thank you, sir, for being with us. And I mean, you've made this decision after decades in the party. What was the last straw for you?

KNUTE BUEHLER, LEFT REPUBLICAN PARTY: Yes, this is not a decision that I took lightly, as you can imagine. I've been a Republican for nearly 40 years, and worked hard in the state of Oregon to build the party to be a winning Oregon (INAUDIBLE).

And it really -- there was no single event, it was a series of occurrences in January, starting with President Trump strong-arming fellow Republicans to try to overturn the election, and then the inciting of the attack on the Capitol.

And really, the final straw was a proclamation by the Oregon Republican Party, signing onto these ridiculous, wacky conspiracy theories: The attack on the Capitol was truly a false flag operation and not done by Trump. That was the final straw, and I said I can't be a Republican anymore and I put (ph) the independent (INAUDIBLE).

KEILAR: Greene said that the party -- and you heard her there, she said the party is now Trump's. Is she right?

BUEHLER: I think she's correct, yes, one of the reasons that I left. I don't believe in blind loyalty to anyone. Not to Trump, not to the Republican Party -- maybe to my wife, I guess, I should qualify that a little bit.

But I am an independent-minded person. And when Trump has been right in the past, I've said so. When he's wrong, I've also called him out, you know, frequently about his leadership style, his tweets, his communication. Some of his policies? Yes, I agree with Ms. Greene, they've been good for the nation. But they've come at a high cost.

KEILAR: It seems for many Republicans -- and I wonder what your reflection is on this -- that there appears to be, you know, a bit of a choice here, which is kind of get in line behind what President -- former President Trump would want, or maybe decide to call it a day and get out of politics.

Is there -- I wonder, to you, like, if there's any middle ground? Because we've actually seen, you know, in the case of other Republicans like Nebraska Senator Ben Sasse, who's facing a censure for decrying his efforts, is there any other choice than that, Knute?

[14:20:10]

BUEHLER: Well, I think there's a choice, and I encourage people to stay engaged, stay involved. Even though I'm leaving politics as a candidate, I've never seen it as a -- as a career. I'm an orthopedic surgeon by training, I've seen it as a term of service. And my term of service is over as an individual.

But I will help good people, good candidates. I will push for important policy changes. So I encourage everyone to continue to do that. These people who are on the extremes of both the left and right, they want to push the middle out and it's more important than ever for the common-sense middle of this country to stand up and say enough is enough, and we need to start solving some of these big problems.

KEILAR: Where do you go after doing that? Where does the party go from here?

BUEHLER: The party, if it wants to be successful, has to continue to increase the size of the tent. It's not going to be a winning party if you push non-Trump supporters out, you have to have a coalition of people who have been activated by the Trump movement, so you have to maintain the business community and establishment Republicans, evangelicals and libertarians.

And those are the -- you know, those are really the four wings of the Republican Party. And if you eliminate any of those four, you no longer have a winning coalition. So it's gut-check time for the Republican Party to see if it wants to be a minority party, or if it truly wants to govern and lead this nation.

KEILAR: Knute, thank you so much for joining we us, we really appreciate. Knute Buehler with us from Bend. Thank you.

BUEHLER: Yes.

KEILAR: And next, Fox News host Sean Hannity tries to distance himself from the conspiracy theories spread by Congresswoman Greene. We'll roll the tape on his wholehearted embrace of conspiracy theories over the years.

[14:20:03]

Plus, the governor or North Dakota joins us live to explain why he let a statewide mask mandate expire, as we see these new COVID variants spreading across the country.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:26:56]

KEILAR: The country is in a race against the clock, trying to get Americans vaccinated against the coronavirus as new variants, some of which are more transmissible and may not be as susceptible to vaccines, pose the threat of a new surge. Some health officials are even recommending that Americans double up on face masks.

In North Dakota, though, they ended their face mask mandate last month, now that the state is averaging 111 new cases per day, down from 1,400 in November when the mask order was put in place. North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum, explaining the decision this way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. DOUG BURGUM (R-ND): We know that there is fatigue that sets in for some people in terms of compliance, compliance fatigue. And perhaps this is a chance for us to take a breather.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Governor Burgum is joining us now to discuss.

Sir, I want to thank you so much for coming on the program. You guys are having some pretty good numbers right now. You did initially resist calls to adopt a mask mandate, but then you went ahead, you put one in place in November, which is when hospitals began overflowing. Do you have any concerns that dropping this mask mandate now could lead to an uptick in cases and deaths?

BURGUM: Well, Brianna, first of all, thanks for having us on. And no, I don't have concerns right now because we're -- things are going great in North Dakota. As you probably know, we're at the top of the charts in terms of number of people vaccinated, as the (ph) percent of vaccine that we've received from the federal government.

Our positivity rate is the lowest among 50 states. We only have 37 people hospitalized due to COVID in the state out of 2,000 available hospital beds. And our positivity rate, again, is extremely low, lowest in the nation.

So we are feeling great about where we are right now. And I know that North Dakotans are the kind of people that if they have to step up and do what they have to do, if we see a resurgence, they'll be here and step up and do the things that they have to do like they did this past fall. But right now, I think it's important for us to keep focusing on all

aspects of health, including mental and behavioral health, and keep -- we've got our kids back in school, we have our economy open, we're resuming visitation with our elderly at long-term care facilities. And that -- all of that is adding to the overall health of our state and so we're pleased to be where we are, and we want to keep heading in this direction.

KEILAR: But they didn't step up when you just asked them to step up. I mean, I saw you, tearful in May, asking them to step up. I saw you in September, asking them again to step up. And it was in November, when there was a surge in cases, that you put the mask order in place. And you've had these low numbers because of the mask order.

You mentioned that you're doing well now, and no one's disputing that. But when you were at the height of your cases per capita -- because you are a rather rural state -- you were number one. I mean, there isn't a state that has performed more poorly in cases per capita at the height of their surges than North Dakota.

[14:30:07]