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Robert Reich, Former Labor Secretary, Discusses Critical Week for Fate of Biden COVID Relief Plan; NYC Public Defender, Eliza Orlins, Discusses Federal Judge Allowing Capitol Riot Suspect to Vacation in Mexico; Heightened Security at Capitol This Week Amid Trump Impeachment Trial; Poll: Millions Who Likely Voted for Trump Want Him Barred from Future Office. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired February 08, 2021 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Congress is very busy right now dealing with the historic second impeachment trial of former President Donald Trump.

Congress is also tackling a massive COVID relief bill that could help Americans trying to make ends meet in what feels like an endless pandemic.

Today, House Democrats are set to unveil a new element. It would increase the child tax credit to at least $3,000 per child.

The bill is also a critical test of how well President Biden and his razor-thin Democratic majorities in Congress can work together and actually govern.

Right now, Democrats are divided on two major parts of the bill. There's the $15 minimum wage. And then they're also divided on who should qualify for these $1400 relief checks.

Let's talk about this now with the former labor secretary from the Clinton administration, Robert Reich, who is with us. He's also the author of "The System: Who Rigged It, How We Fix It."

Sir, thank you so much for coming on to talk to us.

I want to start with the new child tax program. Up to $3,600 for a child up to 16 years old. Up to $3,000 for younger children under 17 for families under the income cap.

What would that do for the economy?

ROBERT REICH, FORMER LABOR SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, it would not only help the economy, Brianna, because, remember, we are in an economy now that is in many respects worse than the Great Recession.

We know, according to the January unemployment report, which we just had, that joblessness is huge and the economy is stalling.

So it would do a lot for the economy in terms of getting money into the economy. But, more importantly, it would do a lot to help many people, families, individuals, who are barely holding on.

KEILAR: The income threshold for relief checks is also at this point a disagreement area between the Democrats and the White House. They are trying to figure out whether to lower the current threshold.

Just to be clear to our viewers, right now, it would phase out for couples who make more than $150,000 a year or for an individual who makes more than $75,000 a year.

Are those caps too high, in your opinion?

REICH: No. Again, given the fact that the middle class in this country has taken a huge hit in terms of jobs and wages, this is not a time to be stingy.

This is a humanitarian issue. And a lot of people who are or were middle class households are finding themselves suddenly facing poverty or they can't pay the rent or they can't pay the mortgage.

And, again, the breadth and depth of the crisis is such that we need to be as generous as we possibly can be.

And, by the way, the United States does have the wealth and the capacity to be generous. If we can't be generous during this kind of economic and social and disease crisis, when can we be generous?

KEILAR: I also want to ask you about -- you know, there's so much in this package here. But I want to ask you about the federal minimum wage.

President Biden has said the increase of it from $7.25 to $15 probably won't survive as part of this bill. He said it could be revisited later.

Considering the numbers of the breakdown in Congress, in the Senate, that kind of seems unlikely.

You have progressives like Bernie Sanders who say this is a key priority. More conservative Democrats like Joe Manchin are against it.

You are adamantly for it. Did the president doom this with his comment?

REICH: I don't think he doomed it. I think that the president was probably referring to the difficulty of getting the minimum wage increase through the Senate on 51 votes in a process called reconciliation, which is a budget process.

And normally, in a budget process, reconciliation, it's very difficult to do something like a minimum wage increase.

However, we now know, and there's a lot of very solid evidence, that increasing the minimum wage -- and remember, it hasn't been increased since 2009.

Increasing the federal minimum wage would have budgetary implications. Because if you give that many people an increase in minimum wage, they will pay more taxes. And they also will have less demands in terms of public assistance. Both of those have budgetary implications.

So I believe, when the dust settles, Democrats will be able to get this through on 51 votes.

KEILAR: You know, I wonder what you say to the CBO estimates, which there's a lot in them. But basically that in addition to increasing the deficit by over $50 billion over 10 years, there would be, yes, 900,000 people lifted out of poverty. But there would be a $1.4 million job loss.

Doesn't that kind of complicate things when Democrats are looking at whether they want to proceed with this?

(CROSSTALK)

[13:35:03]

KEILAR: I mean, they're going to need a Joe Manchin, is what I'm saying.

REICH: Well, they're two separate -- one is political and one is economic.

On the economic front, the Democratic proposal is to phase the increase in the minimum wage in over a number of years.

So you don't do it during the pandemic when there's a great deal of strain on small businesses and employers generally and a lot of people are unemployed.

You do it when the economy recovers, and that's an appropriate time to do it.

The political question, that is, whether Joe Manchin or some of the more conservative Democrats will go along, I think they will.

Because in places like West Virginia, you've got huge numbers of people who are working at or close to the minimum wage. They deserve an increase. They need an increase.

Even if they don't get it during the pandemic, they will get it. And they will contribute to West Virginia's economy if they do.

KEILAR: Explain that to us, though, the job loss numbers. And I know you're saying this is something that happens over time. It's not like one big whammy.

But you're talking about people who end up not participating. They end up just kind of dropping out of the labor market. And this is something conservatives have very much seized on as a reason to be opposed to this minimum wage hike. REICH: Well, it's something that conservatives or Republicans have

argued since the minimum wage was instituted in the 1930s.

They have said that every time you have a minimum wage or you raise the minimum wage, you're going to cause job losses because certain people are not going to be worth the minimum wage.

Well, logically that's true. The question is balancing that against all of the increased purchasing power all of these people will have in the economy, in the local economy.

And also there have been a number of experiments that show clearly that if you increase the minimum wage moderately in stages, not during a huge unemployment crisis like we're having now, but when you are back to a fairly good job growth, you're not going to have job losses.

You're actually, probably going to have job gains, because, again, people will have more money in their pockets with which they can buy stuff.

And when they buy things, that generates more employment because a lot of other businesses want to hire people and need to hire people.

KEILAR: I just want to be clear. So you, Robert, are in disagreement with this CBO number on the job losses?

REICH: I think --

KEILAR: Is that how I'm understanding you?

REICH: I think that that CBO number is not looking at the dynamic effects of the minimum wage increase, and that may be looking right now at a pandemic. I don't think anybody is urging a minimum wage increase right now.

The issue really is, over the slightly longer term, when the economy gets back on track, how many job losses will there be versus what will be the effect on having so many people having more money in their pockets with which they can buy and therefore create more jobs?

I think that the CBO is wrong on this.

KEILAR: Robert Reich, thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate your insight here.

REICH: Thank you, Brianna.

KEILAR: A judge just approved a vacation retreat to Mexico for a woman charged in the U.S. capitol riot. I'll talk to a public defender who is calling foul here.

[13:38:31]

Plus, the heightened security measures for impeachment as members of Congress continue to worry about their safety on the Hill.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:43:28]

KEILAR: A federal judge says a Texas florist charged in connection with the capitol insurrection will be allowed to go to Mexico on vacation later this month.

Jenny Cudd was indicted by a grand jury on five counts, including disorderly conduct in the capitol building.

This is her live streaming during the riot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNY CUDD, TEXAS FLORIST CHARGED IN CAPITOL INSURRECTION: I was here today on January 6th when the new revolution started at the capitol. So, yes, I'm proud of everything that I was a part of today. And I'll be proud of everything that I'm a part of at the next one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: She wrote the judge, saying that she had a four-day retreat to Mexico that had already been planned, and the judge deemed her not to be a flight risk, and also noted the Justice Department didn't oppose her request.

But the decision has raised the ire of many, and that includes Eliza Orlins, who is a New York City public defender and who is also a candidate for Manhattan district attorney.

She tweeted this out, quote, "Her four-day trip to Mexico for her work-related bonding retreat was granted. My teenage client remained rear-cuffed at his dad's funeral. I know I sound like a broken record, but I'm not going to stop. Two. Systems. Of. Justice."

And Ms. Orlins joins me now to talk about this.

This clearly hit a nerve with you. You clearly feel that there is a double standard. And this is something that we've heard so many people say as they are looking at folks being released after their part in the riot.

What just really upset you about this?

[13:45:00]

ELIZA ORLINS, (D), NYC PUBLIC DEFENDER & MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY CANDIDATE: Hello, Brianna. Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be here with you today.

And, yes, as you said, I'm a public defender. I've spent my entire career as a public defender.

And I've seen the way in which our criminal legal system routinely disproportionately affects people of color and low-income folks and just holds them in jail for things as little as stealing a Snickers bar from a grocery store or a pint of ice cream.

And meanwhile, people who participated in this insurrection are being allowed to be released without any conditions, without any bail or bond, or it's been much lower than the things my clients have experienced over the years.

So I've been calling out this injustice. And it's why I'm running for Manhattan district attorney.

KEILAR: A short time ago, a federal judge in Seattle decided that - and this was just today that a Proud Boys leader, Ethan Nordean, should be released pending trial, even after federal prosecutors warned that he could coordinate with the Proud Boys for another attack on the federal government.

He is someone who is accused of committing serious property damage in the Capitol Hill attack.

What is your reaction to that ruling?

And also, you know, give us a sense of what you think -- in a case like this, and a lot of these cases are misdemeanors -- what you think would happen to some of the clients that you have if they were exactly in this situation.

ORLINS: Well, I can tell you what would happen to my clients. When they're charged with misdemeanors, they get held on bail that they can't afford. They lose their homes. They lose their jobs. They lose their children to foster care. Even for just low-level minor offenses. And that's not keeping us safe.

So my argument in calling out these injustices is not saying that we should incarcerate everyone. It's just saying that folks like my clients that have a public defender should not be getting any different treatment than those who are predominantly white.

This system, the racial disparities that exist within the system are so unjust and really perpetuate these two systems of justice. As Manhattan district attorney, I want to end that.

KEILAR: Eliza, thank you so much for being with us. Eliza Orlins, we appreciate you coming on.

ORLINS: Thank you so much.

If people want to find out more, they can check us out at eliza.orlins.com. Thanks for having us.

KEILAR: All right, thank you.

White House COVID task force advisers say the numbers are better. But they warn to keep your guard up because of the rapid spread of variants.

And on the eve of former President Trump's impeachment trial, his second trial new polling shows millions, who likely voted for him, want him barred from future office.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:52:04]

KEILAR: Our nation's capital is bracing for another round the heightened securities at the second impeachment trial of Donald Trump gets under way tomorrow.

With some members of Congress still under threat, extra security measures are being put into place to protect lawmakers.

Let's bring in Shimon Prokupecz. He's our crime and justice correspondent and he's been following this development for us.

Shimon, what are you learning about this beefed-up security?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME & JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, certainly one of the things Brianna, that is of the most concern is lawmakers and making sure they are protected.

Of course, over the last few weeks, we've been reporting that authorities, the FBI, have had concern over threats that they're seeing against lawmakers.

That is one of the biggest concerns here for the capitol police and also for the FBI and authorities here in general.

As you can see behind me, Brianna, this fencing, this heavy-duty fencing with razor wires, that is still very much a part of the security here as well as the National Guard troops.

This is going to continue through at least probably the week here. We're going to see this presence of National Guard. It is also expected to continue for several weeks going forward.

But one of the things certainly for authorities that they are of most concern is over the lawmakers as they've seen an increase in threats against them. We will see some security stepped up around those lawmakers -- Brianna?

KEILAR: Shimon, certainly, a concern many lawmakers sharing right now. We appreciate the report.

While it appears unlikely that the Senate will convict Donald Trump during his second impeachment trial, new polls show there are millions of voters, who supported the former president in the 2020 election, but they now want to see Trump convicted and barred from ever holding office again.

Here's my colleague, Harry Enten, to break down numbers for us.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARRY ENTEN, CNN POLITICS SENIOR WRITER & ANALYST: On the eve of Trump's second impeachment trial in front of the United States Senate, new polling finds that most Americans not only want Trump convicted by the United States Senate but barred from holding future office.

That's the finding of a new ABC/Ipsos poll released Sunday that found that 56 percent of Americans not only wanted Trump convicted but barred from office. Just 43 percent Americans were opposed.

It's just the last poll to reveal such a finding.

A Monmouth University poll released after Trump left office on January 20th, found that 57 percent of Americans wanted Trump to be barred from holding future office, while 52 percent of Americans wanted the United States Senate to convict him.

Indeed, what's so important to look at from these polling findings is that, remember, Joe Biden won just 51 percent of the popular vote in November. These polls say 56 percent or 57 percent of Americans want him barred from holding future office.

That means that millions of Americans, who did not, in fact, vote for Joe Biden back in November, now want Trump to be barred from holding future office in the United States of America.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: All right, Harry, thank you for that.

[13:54:54]

We do have some breaking news. Lawyers for former President Trump argue he did not incite the U.S. capitol riot when he told a crowd to, quote, "fight like hell." But Democrats say the evidence to convict is overwhelming. What else we can expect when the second impeachment trial begins in less than 24 hours.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:59:58]

KEILAR: It is the top of the hour. I am Brianna Keilar. Thank you for joining me.

On this day, before just the fourth impeachment trial of a U.S. president in history, the two sides laying out their cases in pretrial briefs that were just re-released.