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White House Says Biden Committed to Raising Minimum Wage; Critical Week for Fate of Biden's COVID Relief Plan; Biden Says Time for Schools to Reopen Safely; Ex-QAnon Follower Says It's a Cult. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired February 08, 2021 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: And Phil, where are Democrats on this?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: So this is the hard part and that might come as a surprise given the fact Democrats have been very unified over the course of the last three weeks as they've made the choice to move forward on this package without Republican support, really without significant negotiations with Republicans, but the reality is now they have to put pen to paper.

Now they have to make the hard decisions on the actual drafting of the policy and, Brooke, senior administration officials tell me they are working hand in glove with the Democrats on Capitol Hill as they draft this legislation, but there are a couple of key priorities that are a matter of dispute inside the Democratic caucus.

You mentioned the $15 minimum wage. Just on Friday in a CBS interview the president saying he didn't believe it would make it through Senate rules and that is a distinct possibility, but there's another issue as well. There likely aren't 50 Democratic votes in the United States Senate for that proposal.

Joe Manchin the West Virginia Senator saying he's opposed to the $15 minimum wage, wants it to be a little bit lower, we also have the income thresholds in terms of those direct payments, those stimulus checks.

Democrats very divided on that. The president making it clear he's willing to negotiate the targeting, other Democrats saying they don't want to negotiate. It's how they thread that needle. Given how bare the majorities are in both the House and Senate that will determine what this $1.9 trillion COVID package actually looks like if and when it gets to the president's desk -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: We'll continue the conversation on the needle-threading now. Phil Mattingly at the White House. Phil, thank you so much.

With me now CNN senior political analyst and senior editor for "The Atlantic" Ron Brownstein. And CNN political analyst and White House reporter for "The Wall Street Journal" Sabrina Siddiqui.

Sabrina you first, Democrats, you heard Phil. You know their back and forth over some of the key details of this relief bill, minimum wage, the income thresholds for stimulus payments. How much of a problem is this ultimately for President Biden if Democrats are not united?

SABRINA SIDDIQUI, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think it will be very important for Democrats to remain united, especially as the White House moves closer to passing a COVID relief package through the reconciliation process. Of course, which would allow them to pass a bill with a simple majority vote and given a 50-50 split in the Senate and the likelihood that any really significant spending package is going to be opposed by Republicans, they really don't have a lot of margin for error in terms of losing support among Democrats.

Now the White House has said all along that they are open to more targeted relief. And my understanding based on my conversations with officials in the Biden administration is that even though they are open to that targeted relief there are core components that simply have to be in this bill, and I think they have placed a lot of emphasis on funding for vaccine distribution, more funding for state and local officials as well as funding to reopen schools.

And then, of course, stimulus checks even as there is some internal debate within the party over the income threshold and eligibility. So I think those are some of what the White House sees as the core components of this bill.

The big question is what will the final number look like? And will it have enough support not just to pass but also to pass the muster of what is required to do with the reconciliation?

BALDWIN: Well Janet Yellen, Ron, the treasury secretary tells CNN that the bigger risk to the economy is actually not going big enough. But at the end of the day Americans I think they don't care as much how this thing gets through. They just want it through, right? They're struggling they want to know when they're going to be getting help.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.

BALDWIN: When do you think people at home will start to get relief?

BROWNSTEIN: Well I think the time frame that they have been talking about through reconciliation is March, certainly before the extended unemployment benefits expire in mid-March.

And I think Phil had it exactly right. I mean the big picture, Brooke, is that all of the Senate Democrats have basically signaled their assent to using this reconciliation process that allows you to pass the bill with majority rule, and that is a big change from 2009. When Democrats spent weeks and weeks in negotiation with Republicans trying to peel off three Republican votes to break a filibuster on Barack Obama's stimulus plan.

And that of course required them to significantly roll back the size of the package and to this day there are Democrats who believe that that contributed to their big losses in 2020 because it wasn't big enough for people to feel immediately, so --

BROOKE: And that is very fresh on their minds, right, Ron? That's fresh on their minds. Yes.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, with 2022 approaching. And look, in a 50-50 Senate there is an effective veto for every Senator and in practice that often will mean Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema. So whether they can include every aspect of this particularly the minimum wage which is as Sabrina said may also be subject to parliamentary restrictions is unclear.

But the fact that Democrats are willing to do this is both striking and I think also raises the larger question which is if they are willing to go to majority rule for this, their top priority, why are they going to let Republican filibusters continue against other priorities from immigration reform to voting in police rights to pretty much everything else they want to do.

[15:35:03]

So I think that question will only get sharper as the Congress unfolds.

BALDWIN: But to just underscore the top of your answer, March, that is roughly the timeline if you're sitting there at home wondering how to, you know, put more food on the table. March is what they are aiming for.

Sabrina, on schools, President Biden talked about reopening schools, acknowledged that, you know, specifically children and women are suffering the longer that schools stay closed but that doesn't change the fact that teachers and unions in some districts are fighting school reopenings. How does President Biden get teachers and students back in the classroom?

SIDDIQUI: Well this is certainly emerging as a challenge across the country because as you point out you have seen an impasse among some local officials and teachers unions over how to get children back inside of classrooms, children and teachers of course, we should point out.

Now it was interesting that CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said last week that based on the data they have, based on the research, they do not -- the CDC or her impression was that you do not need -- vaccinating teachers is not a prerequisite to reopening school.

And so that's going to be a key question here. Now she emphasized that there still need to be other mitigation measures such as masking and distancing, but what is it really going to take for teachers to be comfortable re-entering the classroom? And what is going to be the role of the White House in, you know, mediating that process?

Now I think they have so far again emphasized once again that this is all the more reason why they need to pass this coronavirus relief package which includes funding to help schools reopen and to implement all those mitigation measures that the CDC says will be necessary to safely reopen schools.

But certainly, you know, the clock is ticking, and I think there is still a lot of frustration among a lot of parents across the country that their children are not back in school. So it will be interesting to see what role the White House plays in trying to resolve that dispute.

BALDWIN: And so much of this, you know, the success of the Biden administration is really predicated upon the success of things going back to normal, right. Schools reopening, teachers feeling safe, people, you know, having jobs again so this all matters massively for Joe Biden and this administration.

We're going to leave it. Ron and Sabrina, thank you so much for that conversation. We'll continue it another day.

Coming up, some of QAnon's conspiracy theories are being heard from members of Congress to your neighbors, family, friends. How do you change the mind of someone who believes the lies? We'll talk to a leading expert on cults and mind control next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:40:00]

BALDWIN: Former President Donald Trump's Senate impeachment trial starts in less than 24 hours and the deadly insurrection of the U.S. Capitol has put QAnon conspiracy theories really front and center and this one woman who got so wrapped up in QAnon. Videos of her ranting against masks and pandemic precautions went viral, she told CNN this morning it is a cult.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MELISSA REIN LIVELY, FORMER QANON FOLLOWER: I really became all consumed in the QAnon conspiracy theories because of a mix of fear, anxiety, depression, you know, uncertainty, inconsistency with the information coming out about the pandemic. I felt terrified.

I went and I did a PTSD and trauma program which was really ultimately what I was dealing with and I was exacerbating the situation and some previous trauma and emotional stuff that, you know, I failed to deal with in my life. And I had to make the conscious choice to go and get help in that. You know, and I invested myself into that program.

You know, I continue to go to therapy and slowly but surely, you know, work to rebuild my life back. And I wrote a book about it and -- and, you know, I was real committed to helping other people escape from this because I really believe that it's a cult. It operates like a cult in every single way, and people don't realize that they are being consumed by QAnon until it's too late.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's start right there. Steven Hassan joins me now. He is a former member of a cult and the author of the books "The Cult of Trump" and "Combating Cult Mind Control." Steven, welcome.

STEVEN HASSAN, AUTHOR "THE CULT OF TRUMP": Thank you so much, Brooke.

BALDWIN: You just heard that former QAnon member Melissa, you know, calling QAnon a cult. You have personal experience. Do you think it is a cult?

HASSAN: I do. I think it's an authoritarian cult indeed.

BALDWIN: Tell me how. What are the signs?

HASSAN: So deceptive recruitment, controlling people's behavior, information, thoughts and emotions to make people dependent and obedient. Disconnecting their ability to reality test, installing phobias in their minds that the that the enemy is here and the only hope is to follow the grand leader.

And essentially there really is a difference between ethical groups and unethical groups, and the process of helping people to reality test is best done through family members and friends who know the person personally.

BALDWIN: We'll come back to your point on reality in a second. But Steven, you know, on the one hand, some of these QAnon believers are becoming disillusioned after they saw Biden actually being sworn in, right?

But then, on the other hand, you have the Marjorie Taylor Greene's of the world, member of Congress, you know, hasn't been denounced very loudly by Republicans. Under pressure she said she backed away from conspiracy theories. But if you are a fervent, you know, QAnon believer, what does that tell you?

[15:45:00]

HASSAN: It tells me that she is not really out of the QAnon orbit and indoctrination. She's doing it for political purposes to back away. I like that that message from her might help some people who are involved with QAnon to start questioning, but the bottom line is a real process has to happen of educating people about what is brainwashing and mind control. Help people go back in time to when they first heard of the group and to pick apart what got to them.

Like what was the hypnotic video --

BALDWIN: How do you do that, Steven? I mean it's so obvious for some of us who quite frankly live in reality. The sky is up, the sky is blue, period. But for some of these folks, I mean it's easy for people watching to think these people are crazy, shrug it off, but this is really what they believe. How do you yank them out of it and into reality?

HASSAN: So, Brooke, part of the problem is our devices and if you're in a cult and all you're hearing is cult messaging and you're not hearing other things it's very hard to get someone to take, you know, that step back and to reality test. So always the formula for me when -- when I'm asked -- how do you know if you're under mind control? You need to take a total break from whatever group you're involved with, like no contact for several days, a week is even better. Walk in the woods, listen to music you used to love to listen to, reconnect with family and friends. And part of the problem is the dynamic that happens when people get into a destructive cult where they either try to recruit their families so intensely that they back off and even cut off contact.

Or the family tries to rationally argue them out which just propels them deeper in. So the family and friends need to be educated about strategically how to ask questions from a curious yet concerned posture that's actually going to develop rapport and trust again and empower the person to take a step back, learn about brainwashing and mind control, reconsider how they got into this rabbit hole and realize there's hope.

People like myself. I was in the Moon cult for two and a half years. I needed help getting out, but I was so glad my family made the effort to help me, Brooke.

BALDWIN: And you got out, and you have the hope and now you're helping others. I have so many more questions, but I am out of time. Steven Hasan we will talk again. Thank you so much, sir. I really, really appreciate it. I just believe that this is something we need to be talking about.

How about this, award winning actor Stanley Tucci now part of the CNN team and he is living all of our food and travel dreams. We will show you his tour of Italy and more importantly what he's eating, next.

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[15:50:00]

BALDWIN: Award winning actor and best selling cookbook author Stanley Tucci is coming to CNN and bringing you along for an unforgettable journey. He has had a legendary film career, but he is now sharing something he has loved his whole life in a new CNN series, his passion for cooking and his family ties to Italy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STANLEY TUCCI, ACTOR AND AUTHOR (voice over): I'm traveling across Italy to discover how the food in each of this country's 20 regions is as unique as the people and their past.

BALDWIN (voice over): Good Italian food has been a constant in Stanley Tucci's life.

TUCCI: My mom was an incredible cook. Is an incredible cook.

BALDWIN (voice over): Born in New York to Italian-American parents, Tucci spent a year growing up in Florence.

TUCCI: It was the start of a life-long love affair with Italy. BALDWIN (voice over): When Tucci first became an actor, he was often

cast as a mobster.

TUCCI: I want to make bail and get out in time for my racket ball game.

BALDWIN (voice over): But his career blossomed beyond any stereotype. Appearing in more than 100 films and TV shows. Tucci has filled his roles with humor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You kind of look like a stripper.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mom?

TUCCI: A high-end stripper for governors or athletes.

BALDWIN (voice over): Drama.

TUCCI: No adults allowed.

BALDWIN (voice over): And big-budget action.

TUCCI: Hunger games.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this a turning point in your career?

TUCCI: Could be.

BALDWIN (voice over): His directorial debut, 1996's "Big Night" starred Tucci and food. Two Italian-American brothers struggle running a restaurant while cooking family recipes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a secret recipe that they brought from their hometown.

BALDWIN (voice over): Not much has changed.

TUCCI: I'm on the hunt for the perfect Timballo, it's a dish I'm obsessed with.

BALDWIN (voice over): Food is an important part of many of Tucci's films.

TUCCI: And it turned out to be Julia.

BALDWIN (voice over): He played Julia Child's husband in 2009.

TUCCI: What is it that you really like to do?

MERYL STREEP, ACTOR, JULIE AND JULIA: Eat.

BALDWIN (voice over): The same year, Tucci's real wife, Kate, died from breast cancer.

TUCCI: All right, everyone. Gird your loins. BALDWIN (voice over): But he found love again when his co-star in "The

Devil Wears Prada," Emily Blunt, introduced him to her sister, Felicity.

TUCCI: This is where we met.

FELICITY BLUNT, ACTRESS: You got some poetry?

TUCCI: Not on me.

[15:55:00]

BALDWIN (voice over): The two share a love of cooking and cookbooks have resulted along with some viral quarantine cocktails.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you going to make me?

TUCCI: A Negroni.

BALDWIN (voice over): Family, friends and food, a theme of Tucci's life.

TUCCI: I think it's time to feed the film crew.

BALDWIN (voice over): And his new show.

TUCCI: I'm going to make them one of my favorites.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN (on camera): How jealous are we of his travels, oh my gosh. Be sure to tune in, the all-new CC original series "STANLEY TUCCI SEARCHING FOR ITALY" premieres Sunday night at 9:00 only here on CNN.

Right now, Senate leaders are close -- forgive me. Let's listen in to Chuck Schumer.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): ... the Department of Commerce, Department of Labor and the Office of Management and Budget. At the same time, committees will continue pressing the work of addressing the COVID crisis.

Last week, in the early hours of Friday morning, the Senate passed a budget resolution that will pave the way for President Biden's American Rescue Plan.

As promised, the Senate held an open, bipartisan and vigorous amendment process. Several bipartisan amendments passed with overwhelming majorities and were added to the resolution. The fact that the debate went all night and only concluded at around 5:30 in the morning is a testament to the vigor of the amendment process, which again I note was bipartisan.

The first amendment, in fact, a very important one, by the Senator from Arizona, Miss Sinema and the Senator from Mississippi, Mr. Wicker, helped our restaurant industry, and it was bipartisan.

Now, our Senate committees have instructions to begin crafting legislation to rescue our country from COVID-19. To speed vaccination distribution, provide a lifeline to small businesses, help schools reopen safely, save the jobs of teachers, firefighters and other public employees, and support every American who is struggling to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads.

This important, historic work will give hundreds of millions of Americans the relief they need. While getting our country back to normal as quickly as possible.

Now on impeachment. Tomorrow, the second impeachment trial of Donald J. Trump will commence. Only the fourth trial of a president or former president in American history, and the first trial for any public official that has been impeached twice.

For the information of the Senate, the Republican leader and I, in consultation with both the House managers and former President Trump's lawyers, have agreed to a bipartisan resolution to govern the structure and timing of the impending trial. Let me say that again.

All parties have agreed to a structure that will ensure a fair and honest Senate impeachment trial of the former president. Each side will have ample time to make their arguments, 16 hours over two days for the House managers, the same for the former president's counsel.

If managers decide they want witnesses, there will be a vote on that, which is the option they requested in regard to witnesses. The trial will also accommodate a request from the former president's counsel to pause the trial during the Sabbath. The trial will break on Friday afternoon before sundown and will not resume until Sunday afternoon.

As in previous trials, there will be equal time for Senators' questions and for closing arguments, and an opportunity for the Senate to hold deliberations, if it so chooses, and then we will vote on the article of impeachment.

And if the former president is convicted, we will proceed to a vote on whether he is qualified to enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States.

The structure we have agreed to is eminently fair. It will allow for the trial to achieve its purpose, truth and accountability. That's what trials are designed to do, to arrive at the truth of the matter and render a verdict.

And following the despicable attack on January 6th, there must, there must be truth and accountability if we are going to move forward, heal and bring our country together once again. Sweeping something as momentous as this under the rug brings no healing whatsoever. Let's be clear about that.

Now, as the trial begins, the forces aligned with the former president are prepared to argue that the trial itself is unconstitutional, because Donald Trump is no longer in office.